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Mutazoia
2011-04-30, 04:17 PM
“Evil! Pure and simple, from the 8th Dimension!”
-B. Banzai

Since the dawn of time, man has struggled against the forces of evil, and it is this basic conflict which forms the very meat and bones of every RPG campaign. Without such conflict, FRPG’s would be reduced to an endless series of dungeon crawls, and players would quickly lose interest. Good versus Evil, Right against Might, Save the World and become legends; this is the basic lure which draws players into a campaign. To have your conflict, you must have a compelling Villain.

Your Villain is your prime motivator, the foil against which your players test themselves. He must be compelling, powerful and above all, intelligent. After all, stupid villains don’t last long enough to rise to power (except as figure-heads). He should be diabolical, ruthless and cunning; the Moriarty to your players Holmes. So how do you design the perfect Villain?

First and foremost, your Villain must have a motivation, a goal that drives the characters to oppose him at every turn. From Genocide and/or World Domination to the resurrection of an ancient demi-god, to simple revenge against the world for slights real or imagined, the goal of your Villain will be the driving force behind your campaign. An evil Villain with a plan amounting to 1) Gather the entire world’s supply of Zinc 2) ? 3) EVIL! Will find him-self forever banished to the realm of Saturday morning cartoons. Your Villain’s plan should be well laid, Epic, and nearly flawless. Your players should need to put in a lot of hard work and planning on their own part to foil your Villain’s plot.

From the Serpent in the Garden of Eden, to Jeffery Dahmer, to Smaug, evil comes in all shapes and sizes. Who your Villain is, can be just as important as what he’s doing. As a wise man once said, nobody would ever surrender to the Dread Pirate Wesley. In one of his books, Spider Robinson had his BBEG eventually turn out to be a giant Cockroach in a pressure suit. The terror the hero’s had felt upon learning of his impending arrival evaporated instantly when he finally made an appearance, and they laughed him off the planet (with the help of an atomic bomb). Your Villain should be dynamic but above all, he should make sense. An ancient dragon that takes elven form to recruit humanoids into the cult of the Draco-litch god makes sense. A Halfling sorcerer, who wants to destroy the world because he was frightened by a Bugbear as a child…not so much.

Whenever the topic of Evil Villains comes up, the conversation eventually turns to that of alignment. A different thread once posed the question of whether or not your villain needs to be evil. The simple answer is NO. Depending on your Villain’s motivation and style of campaign, it is possible for your villain to be any alignment. Although the idea of the good guys trouncing the bad guys is most common, you can easily have evil characters attempting to overthrow good King Nysegy. However, since this thread is titled “The Anthology of Evil”, we’ll stick with reviewing the evil alignments.

Neutral Evil Villains are closer to pure Anarchists than the other evil alignments. Their motivations tend to be the overthrow of government and the rise of “freedom”. They tend to view themselves as serving the “greater good”. Yorgi, leader of the group Anarchy 99 from the movie Triple X, is a good example of this kind of villain. His goal was to start a world war, destroying all governments so people could do whatever they wanted. He didn’t care how many people would die to make his dream a reality, and even killed his own scientists to test his chemical weapon.

Chaotic Evil Villains are usually out for revenge for some offence, real or imagined and are most exemplified by characters such as Freddie Kruger, or Jason Voorhees. Genocide is also a good motivator for these villains. C.E. villains will rarely have any controlled form of evil organization, relying mostly one or two underlings, who he will betray in an instant if it suits his purpose. Their chaotic nature is not very conductive to playing well with others. What minions they will have, will most likely be an every changing collection of disposable thugs who constantly back-stab one another to advance in rank. The Joker is a prime example of this type of villain.

Lawful Evil Villains are the least understood and often the most incorrectly played villains there are. The most Machiavellian of the villains, the L.E. villain’s plans usually involve replacing the existing form of government with one of his own choosing, usually with himself (or a puppet) at the helm. However, he’ll do so within the limits of local law as much as possible. Bribing officials and stuffing ballot boxes are not above him, nor is the occasional political assassination, but for the most part, overt death and destruction and acts of terrorism will be viewed as distasteful and “unsporting” (there are exceptions). L.E. villains won’t be the Hideous, menacing figure in the black robe. He’s going to be the good looking guy that everybody likes. He’s going to be your best friend who gets you to damn yourself with a smile. James Wood’s portrayal of Hades in Disney’s Hercules is an excellent example of an LE character. Also, Machiavelli’s “The Prince” is a good handbook for anyone wishing to use an L.E. Villain.

A good Villain will always have underlings. Even the C.E. villain will have henchmen to do his dirty work, for your villain cannot be everywhere at once. Underlings usually come in 3 flavors:

The Faceless Minion: The common foot soldier of your Villain’s organization, they are the ones who sack villages, kidnap princesses and generally get slaughtered by the PC’s. Their lines are usually nothing more than an endless stream of death cries, and their supply is never ending.

Middle Management: These are the guys that the Villain trusts to run minor operations, such as the local thieves’ guild or act as a conquered city’s Mayor. Minor villains in their own right, they will have their own motivators, as well as those of their boss. Corruptible and prone to plotting against the Villain, they may be turned and serve as double agents. Although they have their own levels, their power comes mainly from the Faceless Minions at their disposal. The Middle Manager’s plans won’t be quite as clever as those of the Villain, usually containing exploitable loop holes or obvious flaws. Their number is numerous but finite.

The Lieutenant: Also known as the Mini-Boss, these are the generals and most trusted henchmen the Villain has. They command his armies, guard his chambers and share (albeit a smaller share than his) the rewards of the Villain’s machinations. Their ideals closely match that of the Villain, making them fiercely loyal to a fault. They rarely betray their boss. Major villains in their own right, they are a match for the PC’s by themselves. There are usually no more than two or three.

Remember: Your Villain is THE MOST IMPORTANT NPC in your campaign. Creating a well-rounded, compelling, intelligent Villain will go a long way to making your campaign fun and memorable.

VonDoom
2011-05-02, 07:09 AM
All in all a good writeup, though I would opt for a different description and/or example for Neutral Evil -- yours, for the most part, could indicate Chaotic Evil just as easily.

Traab
2011-05-02, 07:41 AM
“Evil! Pure and simple, from the 8th Dimension!”
-B. Banzai

Since the dawn of time, man has struggled against the forces of evil, and it is this basic conflict which forms the very meat and bones of every RPG campaign. Without such conflict, FRPG’s would be reduced to an endless series of dungeon crawls, and players would quickly lose interest. Good versus Evil, Right against Might, Save the World and become legends; this is the basic lure which draws players into a campaign. To have your conflict, you must have a compelling Villain.

Your Villain is your prime motivator, the foil against which your players test themselves. He must be compelling, powerful and above all, intelligent. After all, stupid villains don’t last long enough to rise to power (except as figure-heads). He should be diabolical, ruthless and cunning; the Moriarty to your players Holmes. So how do you design the perfect Villain?

First and foremost, your Villain must have a motivation, a goal that drives the characters to oppose him at every turn. From Genocide and/or World Domination to the resurrection of an ancient demi-god, to simple revenge against the world for slights real or imagined, the goal of your Villain will be the driving force behind your campaign. An evil Villain with a plan amounting to 1) Gather the entire world’s supply of Zinc 2) ? 3) EVIL! Will find him-self forever banished to the realm of Saturday morning cartoons. Your Villain’s plan should be well laid, Epic, and nearly flawless. Your players should need to put in a lot of hard work and planning on their own part to foil your Villain’s plot.

From the Serpent in the Garden of Eden, to Jeffery Dahmer, to Smaug, evil comes in all shapes and sizes. Who your Villain is, can be just as important as what he’s doing. As a wise man once said, nobody would ever surrender to the Dread Pirate Wesley. In one of his books, Spider Robinson had his BBEG eventually turn out to be a giant Cockroach in a pressure suit. The terror the hero’s had felt upon learning of his impending arrival evaporated instantly when he finally made an appearance, and they laughed him off the planet (with the help of an atomic bomb). Your Villain should be dynamic but above all, he should make sense. An ancient dragon that takes elven form to recruit humanoids into the cult of the Draco-litch god makes sense. A Halfling sorcerer, who wants to destroy the world because he was frightened by a Bugbear as a child…not so much.

Whenever the topic of Evil Villains comes up, the conversation eventually turns to that of alignment. A different thread once posed the question of whether or not your villain needs to be evil. The simple answer is NO. Depending on your Villain’s motivation and style of campaign, it is possible for your villain to be any alignment. Although the idea of the good guys trouncing the bad guys is most common, you can easily have evil characters attempting to overthrow good King Nysegy. However, since this thread is titled “The Anthology of Evil”, we’ll stick with reviewing the evil alignments.

Neutral Evil Villains are closer to pure Anarchists than the other evil alignments. Their motivations tend to be the overthrow of government and the rise of “freedom”. They tend to view themselves as serving the “greater good”. Yorgi, leader of the group Anarchy 99 from the movie Triple X, is a good example of this kind of villain. His goal was to start a world war, destroying all governments so people could do whatever they wanted. He didn’t care how many people would die to make his dream a reality, and even killed his own scientists to test his chemical weapon.

Chaotic Evil Villains are usually out for revenge for some offence, real or imagined and are most exemplified by characters such as Freddie Kruger, or Jason Voorhees. Genocide is also a good motivator for these villains. C.E. villains will rarely have any controlled form of evil organization, relying mostly one or two underlings, who he will betray in an instant if it suits his purpose. Their chaotic nature is not very conductive to playing well with others. What minions they will have, will most likely be an every changing collection of disposable thugs who constantly back-stab one another to advance in rank. The Joker is a prime example of this type of villain.

Lawful Evil Villains are the least understood and often the most incorrectly played villains there are. The most Machiavellian of the villains, the L.E. villain’s plans usually involve replacing the existing form of government with one of his own choosing, usually with himself (or a puppet) at the helm. However, he’ll do so within the limits of local law as much as possible. Bribing officials and stuffing ballot boxes are not above him, nor is the occasional political assassination, but for the most part, overt death and destruction and acts of terrorism will be viewed as distasteful and “unsporting” (there are exceptions). L.E. villains won’t be the Hideous, menacing figure in the black robe. He’s going to be the good looking guy that everybody likes. He’s going to be your best friend who gets you to damn yourself with a smile. James Wood’s portrayal of Hades in Disney’s Hercules is an excellent example of an LE character. Also, Machiavelli’s “The Prince” is a good handbook for anyone wishing to use an L.E. Villain.

A good Villain will always have underlings. Even the C.E. villain will have henchmen to do his dirty work, for your villain cannot be everywhere at once. Underlings usually come in 3 flavors:

The Faceless Minion: The common foot soldier of your Villain’s organization, they are the ones who sack villages, kidnap princesses and generally get slaughtered by the PC’s. Their lines are usually nothing more than an endless stream of death cries, and their supply is never ending.

Middle Management: These are the guys that the Villain trusts to run minor operations, such as the local thieves’ guild or act as a conquered city’s Mayor. Minor villains in their own right, they will have their own motivators, as well as those of their boss. Corruptible and prone to plotting against the Villain, they may be turned and serve as double agents. Although they have their own levels, their power comes mainly from the Faceless Minions at their disposal. The Middle Manager’s plans won’t be quite as clever as those of the Villain, usually containing exploitable loop holes or obvious flaws. Their number is numerous but finite.

The Lieutenant: Also known as the Mini-Boss, these are the generals and most trusted henchmen the Villain has. They command his armies, guard his chambers and share (albeit a smaller share than his) the rewards of the Villain’s machinations. Their ideals closely match that of the Villain, making them fiercely loyal to a fault. They rarely betray their boss. Major villains in their own right, they are a match for the PC’s by themselves. There are usually no more than two or three.

Remember: Your Villain is THE MOST IMPORTANT NPC in your campaign. Creating a well-rounded, compelling, intelligent Villain will go a long way to making your campaign fun and memorable.


When it comes to designing a villain, a REAL villain, you need to start at the most basic level. What is evil? Evil is greed. Its a greed that can be aimed at anything. A greed for power, for wealth, for respect, for control, even for freedom. Its a greed so all encompassing, that he would rather see what he wants destroyed than allow it to survive in the hands of someone else. That is your baseline for all but chaotic evil types. (They are usually just nuts who are crazier than chocolate pants.)

Now that you have the base motivation for your villain, you need to decide what he is greedy for. Does he want political power? Does he want magical/physical power? Does he want money? Does he want the fear of nations? This is also often the best point to figure out what alignment of bbeg you are going to work with. A lawful evil type who will use the laws of the land he is ruling either openly or in secret to hinder you? A chaotic evil who is out to end reality? Perhaps a neutral evil, Someone who is just out to seize wealth and tangible power for himself, like a lich who wants to tap into ever deeper wells of magical power, or some bandit lord who wants to have a dragons hoard sized pile of gold to swim through.

After that comes the details. Personality quirks, appearance, location, abilities, any associates above the level of mook, but below the level of partner. Things like that. These are the things that will decide wether your bad guy will be remembered past the end of the campaign or just be another faceless random encounter, just with better loot. People dont remember kefka from final fantasy 6 because he blew up the world. They remember him for that crazy laugh, and his personality quirks.

Conners
2011-05-02, 08:32 AM
In other worse, motivations. Not sure I'd use Greed to describe all evil, however... that rather dulls the difference between various kinds of wickedness.

Apathy: Someone with power to save lives who doesn't, even if it is their duty.

Hatred/Anger: A self-destructive emotion, which makes a villain more like a natural disaster than a human being. It also might be one of the main ways one transgresses to become more evil, as your hatred kills off a lot of your nicer feelings.

Revenge: Basically, controlled hatred. If someone can control themself while still maintaining a lot of hatred towards something, it acts as a driving force. Many evil things can be justified in revenge.

Selfishness: Sometimes, this isn't so direct as kicking orphans and stealing their bread. It can relate to apathy, in that it can simply be a case of only thinking about yourself, literally. The villain forgets that other people suffer when they make decisions for their agenda. This could be a drug dealer who loves their kids and seems like a nice guy, because he just doesn't think about how much he hurts others--he never considers it....

Pride: This is one of the main "triggers", I'd say, for other evils. Pride in itself seems fairly harmless, after all. Anyone who offends you, even if just by not recognizing you as being as great as you feel you are, immediately is "evil", "bad", "in the wrong", "needs setting right". This is a great justifier for all sorts of acts.
No one in your village respects you even though you are the heir to ruling the universe (in your own head)? Help bandits to enslave the village in exchange for letting you be in charge of the villagers. If the women get raped and the children sold into slavery, it's their fault for being so stupid as to not see how great you are. That is the mentality that can make many ordinary people villains.

Craving/Greed: Obsessiveness will gradually chip away at a person. Druggies who once were nice people might find themselves holding up gas stations for the money they need for a fix. Where hatred destroys the good in you, desire of this nation envelopes the whole of you. If one can only think of the thing they need to stop thinking about... It gets to be like this:
Question 1: A) Ignore your addiction. B) Do whatever it takes to get a fix.
If Choice A: "Question 2: A) Ignore your addiction. B) Do whatever it takes to get a fix."
The process continues until the addiction finally is scrubbed out of your system by willpower and time, or until you give in. Sadly, the latter might be more common. Whether it's a drug, someone's wife, the crown your brother will receive, or freedom of a sort--it will nag at you at every moment, of weakness and of strength, and then, it will consume you once you give in (you can fight your way out again... but it is hard).

Fear/Desperation: Never underestimate the power of desperation and/or fear. Sun Tzu said himself, that you should put your army in a situation where they are in desperate straights, with no hope of survival except by winning. Desperation is a truly powerful driving force. Where anger can die down and greed can be overpowered, this emotion can lead into great actions... good or bad.
Perhaps they were an OK sort of King. However, he is suddenly at war with nations on both sides of his own. There is no hope of survival, he will be killed and maybe tortured. If he escapes, he will have to live as a commoner--and that also is as death! So, he does the unthinkable, and makes a pact with a demon for survival, for he is desperate for a way to keep things how they are.


Those are a few of the evils of men, I'd say. I should write up a villain idea based off each emotion/evil as an example/exercise.

VonDoom
2011-05-02, 09:11 AM
Well, if I'm actually going to provide further input rather than feedback on the original text ...

The thing about evil, in all its forms ... I don't think it's greed, or pride, or any of the cardinal sins, really. The underlying thing about all of them is simply this: selfishness. Selfishness to the point of being willing to hurt others in the pursuit of your own gain, be that to satisfy pride, greed, lust or whatever.

Being a proud leader, acting for the good of the community is not a bad thing. Being a proud leader who acts for the good of the community solely to look good and acquire money and power while doing so is, though the evil part only comes in when you're willing to actively abuse your position (whether within or outside of the frame of the rules, i.e. lawful vs. chaotic).

There is an excellent third-party D&D supplement called 'Evil', by the way. It's by AEG. It explores exactly this subject at length and does so rather well, though it also features quite a bit of inspiration for evil player characters.

Frozen_Feet
2011-05-02, 10:58 AM
When I design villains, I give them simple motives, something I can get a hold of at any moment. I don't like to be guessing when I'm playing my own characters. Further, I rarely make their motives or goals evil; I prefer their evilness to come from the realization of how unnecessary and petty it ultimately is.

For example, a villain who essentially just wants to get laid wants a bride for himself, but is dissatisfied with frail human women and basically torches villages just to lure forth members of the local female warrior tribe.

Outside of that simple pettiness, however, I often make my villains relatively well-adjusted and tolerable people - just so I can have them lord it over the players when they fail morally at something. Nothing bites quite as hard as a villain with a point, in my opinion.

I do not agree, however, that a villain is the most important NPC in anything. I've held a campaign for nearly 6 months, and it hasn't had any cohesive antagonist for its whole duration. Despite this, the game has run smoothly as a string of player hijinks and random events. Of course, I could say my PCs are quite the villains themselves, beinga belliggerent band of sociopathic misfits, all too eager to burn, maim and kill harmless people and loot their houses...

Mutazoia
2011-05-02, 07:17 PM
When it comes to designing a villain, a REAL villain, you need to start at the most basic level. What is evil? Evil is greed. Its a greed that can be aimed at anything.

All old movies are black and white, all penguins are black and white, therefor all old movies are Penguins.

Assuming that since greed is an evil trait, therefore all people who display said trait are evil is flawed logic. Although it is listed as one of the seven deadly sins, being greedy does not necessarily make one evil, nor does being evil make one greedy.

Let’s take a look at the examples in my OP above:

The Neutral Evil Villain, who believes that all forms of government are evil and oppressive and therefore must be destroyed, is not motivated by greed. He thinks that starting a world war would be serving the greater good; believing that by destroying all governments the simple farmer, for example, can work his own land and not have to suffer taxes that may leave his family with too little to eat in an especially harsh winter. The Villain gets little to nothing out of this act in terms of personal gain.

The Chaotic Evil Villain is not necessarily greedy either. Take the Joker for example. He robs banks left and right, but that money goes into paying his henchmen and funding his next great gag against Gotham City; he keeps very little personally. His hideouts are typically run down warehouses rather than mansions, and his clothing is usually portrayed as dirty and often threadbare. If he were greedy, he would rob a bank and skip town, or have expensive clothing and posh hideouts.

The Lawful Evil Villain is the most likely one of the lot to be greedy; you don’t get much greedier than wanting to rule the world. Although an L.E. Villain who wishes to replace “lax” governments with stricter ones, but is not interested in ruling himself, would be a good example. He would ride into a kingdom, help put the strict dictator in charge, and then move on to the next Kingdom, taking payment, but usually nothing extravagant; enforcing the strict rule of law over lax government would be his main reward.

Conversely, good people can be greedy as well. Take the story of King Midas. Midas was generally believed to be a good and kindly man, but wanting to create gold at will is definitely greedy. Ebenezer Scrooge was a very greedy man, but he was not evil. He wasn’t a nice guy, but he didn’t lie, cheat, steal or kill to make his money; he simply refused to spend more than the bare minimum for anything.


I do not agree, however, that a villain is the most important NPC in anything. I've held a campaign for nearly 6 months, and it hasn't had any cohesive antagonist for its whole duration. Despite this, the game has run smoothly as a string of player hijinks and random events. Of course, I could say my PCs are quite the villains themselves, beinga belliggerent band of sociopathic misfits, all too eager to burn, maim and kill harmless people and loot their houses...

If you are running a Sandbox style of game with no apparent goal, then you are correct, you do not need a villain. You simply let your players run wild and referee the consequences. However, if your campaign has a definite plot, some goal your players must achieve, then you are going to have a villain to oppose them. At that point your villain becomes the most important NPC.

Naturally you could run an evil themed campaign with your players being the forces of evil, but that's for a different thread :smallbiggrin:

Frozen_Feet
2011-05-03, 09:33 AM
Still not buying it. I've GMed and played in games where the central objective was either wholly impersonal (such as recovering an object, getting to desired destination) or wholly internal (finding your loved one, getting a job, completing an act), with no central antagonist, or no antagonists at all.

Of course, you could get philosophical and say the environment is the antagonist, but hey. :smallwink:

Traab
2011-05-03, 10:07 AM
All old movies are black and white, all penguins are black and white, therefor all old movies are Penguins.

Assuming that since greed is an evil trait, therefore all people who display said trait are evil is flawed logic. Although it is listed as one of the seven deadly sins, being greedy does not necessarily make one evil, nor does being evil make one greedy.

Let’s take a look at the examples in my OP above:

The Neutral Evil Villain, who believes that all forms of government are evil and oppressive and therefore must be destroyed, is not motivated by greed. He thinks that starting a world war would be serving the greater good; believing that by destroying all governments the simple farmer, for example, can work his own land and not have to suffer taxes that may leave his family with too little to eat in an especially harsh winter. The Villain gets little to nothing out of this act in terms of personal gain.

The Chaotic Evil Villain is not necessarily greedy either. Take the Joker for example. He robs banks left and right, but that money goes into paying his henchmen and funding his next great gag against Gotham City; he keeps very little personally. His hideouts are typically run down warehouses rather than mansions, and his clothing is usually portrayed as dirty and often threadbare. If he were greedy, he would rob a bank and skip town, or have expensive clothing and posh hideouts.

The Lawful Evil Villain is the most likely one of the lot to be greedy; you don’t get much greedier than wanting to rule the world. Although an L.E. Villain who wishes to replace “lax” governments with stricter ones, but is not interested in ruling himself, would be a good example. He would ride into a kingdom, help put the strict dictator in charge, and then move on to the next Kingdom, taking payment, but usually nothing extravagant; enforcing the strict rule of law over lax government would be his main reward.

Conversely, good people can be greedy as well. Take the story of King Midas. Midas was generally believed to be a good and kindly man, but wanting to create gold at will is definitely greedy. Ebenezer Scrooge was a very greedy man, but he was not evil. He wasn’t a nice guy, but he didn’t lie, cheat, steal or kill to make his money; he simply refused to spend more than the bare minimum for anything.



If you are running a Sandbox style of game with no apparent goal, then you are correct, you do not need a villain. You simply let your players run wild and referee the consequences. However, if your campaign has a definite plot, some goal your players must achieve, then you are going to have a villain to oppose them. At that point your villain becomes the most important NPC.

Naturally you could run an evil themed campaign with your players being the forces of evil, but that's for a different thread :smallbiggrin:


Its not always about greed for material things, its a desire for something, an overwhelming WANT for something.

In the cases you listed, neutral evil is after freedom. He WANTS that, will do anything it takes to get that, and will see everything in his way destroyed if need be to get it.

Chaotic evil, as I said, they are often crazier than chocolate pants. But even the joker had the things he wanted. Not material possessions so much, he wanted FEAR, he wanted to beat the batman, he wanted a lot of things. He was willing to kill and torture anyone who tries to stop him or that he saw as a part of his goals. (I was never a loyal fan of batman so this is what ive picked up from tidbits over the years, comics, movies tv shows etc)

Lawful evil is definitely the obvious one. But overall, perhaps I misspoke. As someone else said, it may be less greed and more selfishness. What matters when you are evil is what you want. What you are greedy for. Nothing else is as important to someone who is evil. Alignment basically covers what it is that they want so badly and what they will generally do to get it.

Conners
2011-05-03, 10:14 AM
That's probably over-use of the term greed It's one thing if you eat all the biscuits or steal something... but isn't it wearing out the word if it's all inclusive for evil? Honestly, being apathetic can be pretty evil, as mentioned--and there's no greed involved.

randomhero00
2011-05-03, 11:36 AM
The main way I see evil is having some compulsion (like murder or rape) that completely destroys the social order. So when designing a BBEG I always make sure he has some realistic compulsion that is disgusting and makes you want to hate him/her.

mint
2011-05-03, 01:10 PM
Evil is a lot like music. There is an infinite variety in both rhythm and cruelty. We know music when we hear it and evil when we see it but explaining it to someone what either is, can be tricky.
Similarly, it is not possible to define the origin and direction. Of a single hurtful sentence or tune, sure. Of the whole of the thing, not so much.
Maybe because we make them and so, they reflect our own fractured nature.

hamishspence
2011-05-03, 03:14 PM
The main way I see evil is having some compulsion (like murder or rape) that completely destroys the social order. So when designing a BBEG I always make sure he has some realistic compulsion that is disgusting and makes you want to hate him/her.

A compulsion to commit some kind of evil deed may be a major factor.

That said, evil deeds done "for the greater good" might eventually lead to evil alignment- if the deeds are especially harmful and excessive.

Evil deeds don't necessarily have to "destroy the social order". A ruler who punishes with extreme severity all those who deviate from tradition, may be upholding the social order- but such a ruler might still qualify as LE.

Frozen_Feet
2011-05-03, 04:14 PM
Actually, you could say the whole Lawful Evil alignment is about the kind of evil that not only thrives, but supports society and its order. It's just that the order that's enforced is disgusting in its own right.

Maryring
2011-05-03, 09:42 PM
You had a shoutout to Phineas and Ferb. That alone is enough to give this many thumbs up.

Doesn't hurt that the post itself was also a very good, enjoyable even, read.

Tvtyrant
2011-05-03, 09:47 PM
Despair: Some people who believe they are doomed will do anything to mitigate that doom. Think the Demon from Dogma who is trying to end existence to get out of hell, or the BBEG from Wolf's Rain who wants to end the universe because his beloved is now dead and all life is meaningless (to him).

zorba1994
2011-05-03, 10:11 PM
A very good post, however, there is one major issue that I have with it. Your definition of Chaotic Evil, to be exact.

Sure, chaotic evil CAN be the insane psychopath trying to kill everyone. But he can just as easily be the merchant who knowingly sells defective weaponry to turn a profit. The example I like to use is that basically everyone in the movie Fargo is CE (with the notable exceptions of the cop lady, who is LG, the grandfather, who is LE).

Alternatively, a CE guy can form gangs or master plans, and is just rather impetuous or spontaneous about carrying them out. Examples of this could be The Joker (a la Dark Knight), Lil' Dice/Lil' Ze (City of God), or (I would argue) Nale (OOTS).

Anyone who plays a CE villain as a Freddy Krueger is seriously mis-appraising the potential depth of this alignment.

Frozen_Feet
2011-05-04, 06:39 AM
In my mind the epitome of Chaotic Evil is "naturalistic Evil" - best showcased by large solitary predators, and in context of D&D, many chromatic dragons.

This kind of Evil is perfectly certain of its sovereignty, seeing everyone on its territory as toys at best, and threats at worst. It looks out only for number one, considering its own whim and pleasure to be of highest priority. It's sadistic and cruel towards those it considers "lesser beings", which is pretty much everyone.

But it's not irrational or unstable. It isn't out for some mustache-twirling villainy, it just is. You can understand and get behind its reasons, negotiate with it and work with it. You can even consider it to have it's own kind of magnificence. That's both the beauty and horror of it.

Agrippa
2011-05-04, 09:51 AM
In my mind the epitome of Chaotic Evil is "naturalistic Evil" - best showcased by large solitary predators, and in context of D&D, many chromatic dragons.

This kind of Evil is perfectly certain of its sovereignty, seeing everyone on its territory as toys at best, and threats at worst. It looks out only for number one, considering its own whim and pleasure to be of highest priority. It's sadistic and cruel towards those it considers "lesser beings", which is pretty much everyone.

But it's not irrational or unstable. It isn't out for some mustache-twirling villainy, it just is. You can understand and get behind its reasons, negotiate with it and work with it. You can even consider it to have it's own kind of magnificence. That's both the beauty and horror of it.

Basically Larry Sizemore (http://burnnotice.wikia.com/wiki/Larry_Sizemore) A.K.A. Dead Larry, the undead spy. Now where would Simon (http://burnnotice.wikia.com/wiki/Simon_Escher) fit?

Mutazoia
2011-05-04, 06:18 PM
Sure, chaotic evil CAN be the insane psychopath trying to kill everyone. But he can just as easily be the merchant who knowingly sells defective weaponry to turn a profit.

Maybe if your merchant was selling defective weaponry in an attempt to sabotage a particular side of a conflict, but just doing it for profit...I don't know if I would consider that very chaotic. More Lawful evil. The PHB even defines evil more in line with the insane, brutal archetype:

Chaotic Evil, "Destroyer" A chaotic evil character does what ever his greed, hatred, and lust for destruction drive him to do. He is hot-tempered, vicious, arbitrarily violent, and unpredictable. If he is simply out for whatever he can get, he is ruthless and brutal. If he is committed to the spread of evil and chaos, he is even worse. Thankfully, his plans are haphazard, and any groups he joins or forms are poorly organized...{snip}...Chaotic Evil is the most dangerous alignment because it represents the destruction not only of beauty and life but also of the order on which beauty and life depend.


Anyone who plays a CE villain as a Freddy Krueger is seriously mis-appraising the potential depth of this alignment.

Freddy Kruger was very diabolical and mentally tortured his victims before killing them with their worse fears. Besides, I listed Freddy as one possible example, I also listed the Joker.:smallcool:

Mutazoia
2011-05-04, 06:28 PM
But it's not irrational or unstable. It isn't out for some mustache-twirling villainy, it just is. You can understand and get behind its reasons, negotiate with it and work with it. You can even consider it to have it's own kind of magnificence. That's both the beauty and horror of it.

Irrational or unstable is the very definition of Chaotic
chaotic adj
1: lacking a visible order or organization [syn: helter-skelter]
2: completely unordered and unpredictable and confusing [syn: disorderly]

what you wrote, actually would be more Lawful Evil. Chaotic evil wouldn't think twice about negotiating with you and then stabbing you in the back before the ink dry's on the treaty. Anybody who negotiates with Chaos and thinks they can come out on top, or anywhere near not dead better have their live insurance premiums paid up.

Comet
2011-05-04, 06:43 PM
what you wrote, actually would be more Lawful Evil. Chaotic evil wouldn't think twice about negotiating with you and then stabbing you in the back before the ink dry's on the treaty. Anybody who negotiates with Chaos and thinks they can come out on top, or anywhere near not dead better have their live insurance premiums paid up.

Actually, I can see a Chaotic Evil entity honoring an agreement. Chaos is not predictable, you can't just say that they are always going to double cross you. They are individuals with individual codes, even more so because chaos, as defined, is all about laughing at the face of notions like 'X will always do Y'.

In the end, each alignment can stand for an insane amount of different personalities and moral codes. There are extreme cases and mild cases of each alignment, some entities really take their alignment to heart in the stereotypical manner while others are less obvious about their cosmic affiliation.

But that's all pretty D&D specific, isn't it? So, a bit off topic. Sorry about latching onto that.
Anyway, on your essay, it was a nice read. A bit fantasy/D&D specific, which is probably no accident, but still a nice resource for anyone.

Mutazoia
2011-05-04, 06:45 PM
Anyway, on your essay, it was a nice read. A bit fantasy/D&D specific, which is probably no accident, but still a nice resource for anyone.

Yeah...I was trying to think of a few non D&D specific examples to throw in there, but it still came out fantasy laden lol. I find that a lot of people still tend to use the D&D alignment classifications, even when talking about Modern or Space Opera games.

Comet
2011-05-04, 06:55 PM
I find that a lot of people still tend to use the D&D alignment classifications, even when talking about Modern or Space Opera games.

That's definitely true, since D&D really is sort of the top dog around. And, to be fair, the alignment system is kind of a neat way to serve that 'nerdy' sort of urge to categorize things and process complex things like morality in a more tangible manner.
It can also be a bit misleading, as the D&D alignment system was never intended to model really complex personalities and clashes of interest beyond cosmic fantasy struggles between good/evil and freedom/order. So, picking alignments can be tricky when you step beyond those archetypes, as is the case with villains in, for example, modern crime dramas. Fun, but tricky :smalltongue:

Frozen_Feet
2011-05-05, 05:05 AM
Irrational or unstable is the very definition of Chaotic
chaotic adj
1: lacking a visible order or organization [syn: helter-skelter]
2: completely unordered and unpredictable and confusing [syn: disorderly]

what you wrote, actually would be more Lawful Evil.

We're talking about two different kinds of stable. I referred to mental stability, merely meaning that naturalistic Chaotic Evil is neither Chaotic Stupid or Stupid Evil. Despite it's destructive or anarchistic urges, it knows better than to follow them when it'd be clearly against its best interest (and on the flipside, knows exactly when it can let loose and follow them to their fullest).

We're also talking about different kinds of Chaos. From the SRD: ""Chaos" implies freedom, adaptability, and flexibility. On the downside, chaos can include recklessness, resentment toward legitimate authority, arbitrary actions, and irresponsibility. Those who promote chaotic behavior say that only unfettered personal freedom allows people to express themselves fully and lets society benefit from the potential that its individuals have within them. "

Naturalistic CE hits all high points of that, save for one: recklessness. That's what I referred to as it being rational.

On the other hand, Law implies "honor, trustworthiness, obedience to authority, and reliability", which are all things naturalistc Evil lacks. Indeed, it lacks them to the extent it can't even be Neutral, since it is compelled to disregard all others save for itself.


Chaotic evil wouldn't think twice about negotiating with you and then stabbing you in the back before the ink dry's on the treaty. Anybody who negotiates with Chaos and thinks they can come out on top, or anywhere near not dead better have their live insurance premiums paid up.

Not quite. A Chaotic person can have goals, which serve as attractors for his behaviours (See: chaos attrractors in chaos theory), creating momentary emergent order and direction for their actions. Any non-stupid Chaotic creature will listen if it honestly looks like you have something to offer that'd be in line with their current goals. A chromatic dragon, for example, might put torching you on hold if it seems you can guide it to new shiny treasure.

The reason it's hard to come out on top is empathetically not because the dragon doesn't think. Quite the opposite, even, most dragons are much smarter and wiser than average humans. It's because, as noted in the Alignment descriptions, Chaotic beings have no compulsion to let you in to what they're thinking. That's why negotiating with naturalistic CE is a gamble - you can't be sure it's telling you everything it wants or everything it knows, and thus you can't be sure how far exactly it'll be willing to play along. But you can hedge the bets if you're smart, preferably smarter than the Evil. That's what I mean by "you can negotiate with it".

(In game terms, when dealing with Chaotic persons, have as many ranks in Sense Motive (or equivalent) as possible, since you can't rely on there being any external source to use for evaluating the person.)