Managing Wizard Spells [DM question]

[Kingscourt]

For anyone who's played a Wizard, you know the excitement of getting new spells to your spellbook... and for anyone who's DMed with a Wizard, you understand the dangers of giving the party wizard too many spells... especially when they're the most dangerous in the group. I recently finished up a year long campaign, in which the wizard was a litttlleee homicidal, he ended up killing one character in the party... thrice, and ended the campaign fleeing into the lower levels of the abyss. Anyways, I was always really reluctant to give him more spells, but now as I am currently playing a wizard in our newest campaign, I always find myself wanting more and more spells... as a DM, what do you guys do in terms of dealing with wizards and the amount of spells they get?

[Koury]

I mostly try to stick right around WBL. Simple as that, for me. But I don't have jerks for players so, yeah, that helps. :smalltongue:

Except you Greenish. ;)

[Mutazoia]

You could always try regulating WHAT spells they get. We use to make our wizards try to find a spell if they wanted it in their spell book, rather than just let them pick what every they wanted out of the PHB. This let the DM have better control over what the players had available, and thus have a little more control over the campaign. I've never limited the amount of spells players get, just their selection.

[Koury]

You could always try regulating WHAT spells they get. We use to make our wizards try to find a spell if they wanted it in their spell book, rather than just let them pick what every they wanted out of the PHB. This let the DM have better control over what the players had available, and thus have a little more control over the campaign. I've never limited the amount of spells players get, just their selection.

Problem here being that you can get anything you want twice per level anyway, which can get you quite far.

If Collegiate Wizard is in play, the money you spend on extra spells is usually quite low.

[Mutazoia]

Problem here being that you can get anything you want twice per level anyway, which can get you quite far.

If Collegiate Wizard is in play, the money you spend on extra spells is usually quite low.

Not really, since as the DM I can decide whether a wizard gets to learn a spell or not. If I think a particular spell might cause a problem with the campaign (or know a particular player's penchant for abusing said spell) I can say he can't find a copy to to transcribe into his spell book. I'm not about limiting number..they can memorize Flare a million times a day if they want, but if I don't want them having Teleport yet...they're not going to get it until I say so.

[olentu]

Not really, since as the DM I can decide whether a wizard gets to learn a spell or not. If I think a particular spell might cause a problem with the campaign (or know a particular player's penchant for abusing said spell) I can say he can't find a copy to to transcribe into his spell book. I'm not about limiting number..they can memorize Flare a million times a day if they want, but if I don't want them having Teleport yet...they're not going to get it until I say so.

I believe that the spells in question are the ones that are generated at level up and not copied. Now of course the DM can block any spell acquisition regardless of what rules might say but I believe that the point was rather that restricting available spellbooks and scrolls to restrict copyable spells is perhaps not an especially effective solution when a wizard gets many spells of their choice when leveling up and of course even more if they have collegiate wizard.

[Mutazoia]

I believe that the spells in question are the ones that are generated at level up and not copied. Now of course the DM can block any spell acquisition regardless of what rules might say but I believe that the point was rather that restricting available spellbooks and scrolls to restrict copyable spells is perhaps not an especially effective solution when a wizard gets many spells of their choice when leveling up and of course even more if they have collegiate wizard.

So your saying that the spells generated at level up are spontaneously generated in the wizard's spell book with out him actually having to find and research said spell? You do realize that spells are not generated at level up, only spell slots? As in I can now memorize more spells than I could before because I am more experienced in studying/committing them to memory, instead of "poof! hey I suddenly know how to teleport now...funny I didn't know how to do that yesterday". :smallamused:

[olentu]

So your saying that the spells generated at level up are spontaneously generated in the wizard's spell book with out him actually having to find and research said spell? You do realize that spells are not generated at level up, only spell slots? As in I can now memorize more spells than I could before because I am more experienced in studying/committing them to memory, instead of "poof! hey I suddenly know how to teleport now...funny I didn't know how to do that yesterday". :smallamused:

Oh I do believe that the fluff for the spells is that they are part of said wizards ongoing research into magic rather then copied from anything presumably in the same way that feats and the like are spontaneously generated when gaining a level.

[Mutazoia]

Oh I do believe that the fluff for the spells is that they are part of said wizards ongoing research into magic rather then copied from anything (snip).

*facepalm* so you agree that spells are researched but not learned from/copied from outside sources? One way of gaining a new spell is finding some one who already knows it and copying their homework. Fine. If you don't want your player to learn Teleport just yet, then his research fails and he can't learn it yet.:mitd:

[olentu]

Now of course the DM can block any spell acquisition regardless of what rules might say


*facepalm* so you agree that spells are researched but not learned from/copied from outside sources? One way of gaining a new spell is finding some one who already knows it and copying their homework. Fine. If you don't want your player to learn Teleport just yet, then his research fails and he can't learn it yet.:mitd:

But again I do believe that the point was that a DM would want to explicitly block the free spells of their choice that wizards gain upon leveling up rather then just the available spells that can be copied from since wizards get several spells of their choice upon leveling up.

[RaginChangeling]

For anyone who's played a Wizard, you know the excitement of getting new spells to your spellbook... and for anyone who's DMed with a Wizard, you understand the dangers of giving the party wizard too many spells... especially when they're the most dangerous in the group. I recently finished up a year long campaign, in which the wizard was a litttlleee homicidal, he ended up killing one character in the party... thrice, and ended the campaign fleeing into the lower levels of the abyss. Anyways, I was always really reluctant to give him more spells, but now as I am currently playing a wizard in our newest campaign, I always find myself wanting more and more spells... as a DM, what do you guys do in terms of dealing with wizards and the amount of spells they get?

I would talk to them about it, establish what you guys both think is appropriate for the campaign. I tend to assume Teleport/Flight/Black Tentacles etc to be available to higher level Wizards and have the world set up accordingly. Don't just take away their toys, offer other things instead. If a player wants to grab say, Alter Self and Glitterdust, maybe work out that you'll give them Alter Self in a level or two and give them an illusion spell, or something cool off of another spell list now. I know a big favorite has been to give Swift Haste, the second level Ranger spell, to some of my Wizards instead of some of the more powerful second level spells. 1d4 rounds of haste isn't much, but it lets them feel cool and makes their spell book unique and different than other Wizards.

Don't just be ban-happy, throw them a few cool bones and delay getting their best stuff. When they hit level 17, work out a way to give them Shapechange or Time Stop as part of the story and give them something unique and lower powered in the meantime. They'll be far more likely to work with you, and in-character they can play some kind of magical savant with their massive intelligence.

[tiercel]

You can of course wield the banhammer/nerfhammer (and some spells, like the polymorph line, celerity, cry out for it) but ideally for most spells you just give your player a heads-up as to what you consider could cause problems for the game and its fun. If your player still really wants the spell, sit down and figure out what they want to do and decide if a tweaked version of the spell or a closely related alternative would do the job for them.

I mean -- if you have a problem with *wizards* having widespread access to spells, what are you going to do when a player with a cleric, druid etc comes to the table with 65lb of expansion books and starts flipping through all of them for today's spells? You're going to need a "gentleman's agreement" or a restriction on which/how many books can be used there too (and Spell Compendium alone drops one big concentrated chunk of options all in one go).

Keep in mind that most scrolls wizards will be buying will have to be custom-made for them, as existing scrolls tend to get consumed by existing wizards to be written into their own spellbooks (or used in adventuring). If the local wizards' guild or whoever is especially mercenary or hard-up for cash, that's one thing, but otherwise they may place restrictions on which spells or how many of them they will make available for any troublemongering Tom, ****, or Harry who shows up with a sack of gold.

[Endarire]

I'm a fan of giving Wizards more access to spells. Let secret page spam get that Wizard more spells.

Why?

Because I know what the spells do and plan for them. I also talk with my players about likely trouble spells and their consequences.

[Greymane]

I'm a fan of giving Wizards more access to spells. Let secret page spam get that Wizard more spells.

Why?

Because I know what the spells do and plan for them. I also talk with my players about likely trouble spells and their consequences.

*Brofist* I do the same.

Though, to be fair, not every DM wants to put in that sort of effort; and depending on the number of sources you allow your casters, it could be nightmarish to plan for the Wizard's spells. Or heck, the Druid or the Cleric because they just get them, afterall.

[Tyger]

So your saying that the spells generated at level up are spontaneously generated in the wizard's spell book with out him actually having to find and research said spell? You do realize that spells are not generated at level up, only spell slots? As in I can now memorize more spells than I could before because I am more experienced in studying/committing them to memory, instead of "poof! hey I suddenly know how to teleport now...funny I didn't know how to do that yesterday". :smallamused:

Actually, no... at each level up, the wizard generates two new spells in their book, at no cost to themselves. That's RAW. Of course, you are free to take that away, or to limit what those spells can be, but the RAW is very clear on that point.

From the SRD:

At each new wizard level, she gains two new spells of any spell level or levels that she can cast (based on her new wizard level) for her spellbook. At any time, a wizard can also add spells found in other wizards’ spellbooks to her own.

To the OP, I have always found that the wizard spell selection can be an interesting issue, but at the end of the day, I generally let them have what they want. If there are particular spells that are just written incorrectly (Shivering Touch, I am looking at you) we either agree to ban them, or have a gentleman's agreement that if they use those sorts of spells, I can too.

For me as a player, finding new spells and spellbooks to work with was always one of the good parts of playing a wizard. Nothing is more satisfying than defeating the evil bad guy, and then finding, deep in his lair, his enchanted spell book... new knowledge, new spells, more power!!!! :smallbiggrin:

[Taelas]

Fluff is that those spells are gained through ongoing research. I believe Mutazoia's point was that research can end in failure (in other words, limiting your wizard player away from certain spells).

[Tyger]

Fluff is that those spells are gained through ongoing research. I believe Mutazoia's point was that research can end in failure (in other words, limiting your wizard player away from certain spells).

Yes, that's true. However, limiting those spells would be a houserule and not RAW. Which is great, but should not be presented as the rule.

[Taelas]

It is not so much a house rule as limiting what material is available, but yes, it certainly isn't RAW. That said, it is entirely reasonable.