[3.5] Unarmed Warrior [Archive] - Giant in the Playground Forums

Thurbane

2011-05-01, 12:57 AM

Hey,

Just a thought exercise - is it possible to build a competent unarmed warrior type without using (or dipping) Monk or Unarmed Swordsage?

By unarmed warrior I don't mean a natural attack type (Totemist) or someone who discharges magical effects by touch, but someone who just beats on monsters with his fists and feet.

PrCs that grant Monk unarmed strike abilities are OK, so long as they don't require Monk to enter.

As I said - just a thought exercise.

Cheers - T

Greenish

2011-05-01, 01:01 AM

Barbarian/FotF/Warshaper/Frost Rager?

MeeposFire

2011-05-01, 01:04 AM

You can do it fine with warblade. Just pick up some unarmed attack stuff, use gauntlets, pick up snap kick, and enjoy the use of fun warblade maneuvers.

RaginChangeling

2011-05-01, 01:12 AM

You can build a straight fighter with core feats who's better at unarmed attacking than the monk. If you can enter PrCs like Fist of the Forest and Drunken Master its even easier, or if you grab Superior Unarmed Strike from TOB.

Thurbane

2011-05-01, 01:13 AM

Cool - so what kind of base unarmed damage can you get up to using the above methods?

The-Mage-King

2011-05-01, 01:17 AM

In addition to those, there's a neat class called the battle dancer in the Dragon Compendium. If I had to make an unarmed character, I'd use that.

MeeposFire

2011-05-01, 01:18 AM

superior unarmed strike alone takes you to 2d6. Then it is a matter of how many feats and abilities you devote to weapon size. The more the better. You can also get static bonuses from various feats like weapon mastery if you want (size bonuses are more important though if you can get a lot of them).

Thurbane

2011-05-01, 01:20 AM

In addition to those, there's a neat class called the battle dancer in the Dragon Compendium. If I had to make an unarmed character, I'd use that.
Erm, I probably should have listed that as another exception in the OP - basically, I'm trying to avoid base classes built around unarmed attacks.

The-Mage-King

2011-05-01, 01:22 AM

Erm, I probably should have listed that as another exception in the OP - basically, I'm trying to avoid base classes built around unarmed attacks.

...

: (

Thurbane

2011-05-01, 01:24 AM

...

: (
Yeah, sorry, other than that, excellent suggestion. In fact, it's perfect for any unarmed build that's trying to go full BAB.

Hirax

2011-05-01, 01:32 AM

Orc dragonborn with 24 strength during a rage. Dragonborn for better jump checks.

Disclaimer: I didn't check any of these feats to see if they work with gauntlets. This is just a charger build given a gauntlet instead of a 2 handed weapon.

2 (1d3 medium gauntlet)
7 (strength damage)
6 (BAB put into power attack)

Power attack only:
2+7+6=15
+leap attack
2+7+6*2=21
+battle jump
(2+7+6*2)2=42
+valorous weapon (choose your method to get it on unarmed strike)
(2+7+6*2)3=63
+headlong rush
(2+7+6*2)4=84
+power lunge
(2+7*2+6*2)4=112

Bar1 (for pounce)/Warblade1/fighter4

Flaw: Battle jump
Flaw: Imp. bull rush
1: Extra rage (probably applicable to whirling frenzy variant too)
3: Power lunge (BAB 3 needed)
F1 (3rd level): Power attack
F2 (4th level): Headlong rush (needs BAB of 4)
F4 (6th level): Shock trooper (needs BAB of 6)
6: Leap attack (Complete Adventurer, cannot be taken as fighter bonus or before 5th level due to 8 jump ranks required)

As before, get leaping dragon stance at level 9, whether through a feat or 3 more warblade levels, to help battle jump. Damage we can do easily, increasing range to avoid AoOs due to power lunge and and headlong rush is the tricky part if you want to go for big numbers, but you do just fine without those 2 feats too. Use whatever shenanigans you wish to increase size to avoid AoOs if you do go that route though, without a reach weapon you'll need it. While you're dabbling in those shenanigans, get yourself lots of unarmed strikes.

Zonugal

2011-05-01, 01:54 AM

A scout using the riposte acf could be built to be a lot like a Bruce Lee combatant.

Godskook

2011-05-01, 02:10 AM

Sacred and Enlightened Fist both provide 10/10 UAS progression, and are available without ever taking levels in monk. Combined with a belt, tattoo, and Superior Unarmed Strike, you hit max monk damage without ever having a level in the class. And we should have enough room to add a lot of the other standard UAS damage boosting gear as well.

Ravens_cry

2011-05-01, 02:56 AM

Thug Fighter using gauntlets could be a pretty brutal unarmed attacker against things that can be sneak attacked.

Curmudgeon

2011-05-01, 02:57 AM

Superior Unarmed Strike gives you the unarmed damage progression of a Small Monk, regardless of your size, up through level 19 (but does not improve to the level 20 capstone damage). So it's an excellent choice if your character is size Small or smaller.

You can get Improved Unarmed Strike from items. The Bracers of Striking (Magic of Faerûn) are a bargain at only 1,310 gp. A Fanged Ring (Dragon Magic) is more expensive but grants that feat, Improved Natural Attack (unarmed strike), and CON damage on an unarmed critical. Add a Monk's Belt (which does not grant the IUS feat) to either and you have little to gain from actual Monk levels.

Then the big, gooey icing on the cake is to get party member to add a daily casting of Greater Mighty Wallop (Races of the Dragon) to boost your unarmed damage from the equivalent of a Small Monk to a Colossal Monk. So Monk levels don't help your unarmed damage ─ at all.

Greenish

2011-05-01, 03:02 AM

Thug Fighter using gauntlets could be a pretty brutal unarmed attacker against things that can be sneak attacked.Thug (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#fighterVariantThug) is not the variant that trades feats for SA.

Ravens_cry

2011-05-01, 03:15 AM

Thug (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#fighterVariantThug) is not the variant that trades feats for SA.
My bad, still, it would still work with that Variant in addition to the sneak attack one.

Greenish

2011-05-01, 03:23 AM

My bad, still, it would still work with that Variant in addition to the sneak attack one.But someone was wrong in the internet! :smalltongue:

Ravens_cry

2011-05-01, 03:49 AM

But someone was wrong in the internet! :smalltongue:

My goodness, so they were. And they owned up to it when shown proof of their error. What is this planet coming to? Will we be inundated by a wave of mass politeness and courtesy? Is this the end of the Internet as we know it?:smalleek:
I love XKCD too, but merely quoting does not make comedy make.

Vulaas

2011-05-01, 03:55 AM

Another great magic item for this would be the Necklace of Natural Weapons so you can enchant those fists with some spiffy abilities.

I also seem to remember a feat from one of the Dragon magazines that lets you count your unarmed attacks as two handed weapons, but my mind could just be fried from it being 4AM here.

MeeposFire

2011-05-01, 04:37 AM

Enchanted gauntlets also work if you want a core option. Since you are not a monk you do not run into the twin problems of proficiency and flurry that plagues monk weapon choices.

Eldariel

2011-05-01, 04:45 AM

Level 20 Unarmed Fighter (http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheetview.php?sheetid=163711) I once threw together 'cause I was bored. He one-shots PF Tarrasque (it's only ~600 HP or so). Seems I didn't take Improved Natural Attack but fitting that in is relatively simple; it's basically just a counterattack/charger Fighter who attacks with unarmed strikes (and utilizes the fact you can acquire Pounce for UA Strikes with feats). It does TWF 'em so meh.

Tenebris

2011-05-01, 04:56 AM

Tashalatora can be picked without monk levels. It's weird though. You don't virtually gain Improved Unarmed Strike, but deal damage as a monk. Also not sure if you would be able to add your wisdom bonus to your AC.

Kaeso

2011-05-01, 05:13 AM

Barbarian and Fist of the Forest combined with Superior Unarmed Strike is good enough to be better than a monk.
The FoF PrC makes monks basically obsolete, if you can live witht he savage lifestyle.

Curmudgeon

2011-05-01, 08:47 AM

Barbarian and Fist of the Forest combined with Superior Unarmed Strike is good enough to be better than a monk.
I don't understand what you're trying to get at here. Superior Unarmed Strike offers better damage than Fist of the Forest 3 once you get to level 16+, so those FotF levels are just a way to pick up AC Bonus tied to CON instead of WIS, and uncanny dodge duplicates what you're already getting from Barbarian 2/improved uncanny dodge from Barbarian 5. Why not just skip FotF entirely, get a Monk's Belt, and get greater Barbarian rage benefits from more levels in that class?

Kaeso

2011-05-01, 08:50 AM

I don't understand what you're trying to get at here. Superior Unarmed Strike offers better damage than Fist of the Forest 3 once you get to level 16+, so those FotF levels are just a way to pick up AC Bonus tied to CON instead of WIS, and uncanny dodge duplicates what you're already getting from Barbarian 2/improved uncanny dodge from Barbarian 5. Why not just skip FotF entirely, get a Monk's Belt, and get greater Barbarian rage benefits from more levels in that class?

If we assume that the 1d10 damage the FotF offers is monk damage, then Superior Unarmed Strike would allow you to deal damage as a monk 5 levels higher, thus 2d6. A monk's belt would add another 4 levels, letting you deal 2d8 damage, getting you awfully close to the monk's 2d10 maximum damage.

Curmudgeon

2011-05-01, 09:01 AM

If we assume that the 1d10 damage the FotF offers is monk damage, then Superior Unarmed Strike would allow you to deal damage as a monk 5 levels higher, thus 2d6.
No, it doesn't work that way. Superior Unarmed Strike has a completely different progression if you don't have Monk levels, and there's absolutely no basis for reading "If you are a Monk" as "If you are a Monk and/or Fist of the Forest".

Lateral

2011-05-01, 09:20 AM

No, it doesn't work that way. Superior Unarmed Strike has a completely different progression if you don't have Monk levels, and there's absolutely no basis for reading "If you are a Monk" as "If you are a Monk and/or Fist of the Forest".

Yes, but they're the same ability thematically (and probably have the same name; I don't have CC on hand.) RAI, there's no reason they shouldn't stack.

Curmudgeon

2011-05-01, 09:33 AM

RAI, there's no reason they shouldn't stack.
Monk and Fist of the Forest levels don't stack for either Monk or Fist of the Forest class features. Why should they be treated as interchangeable for the Superior Unarmed Strike feat?

You're suffering from a bad case of wishful thinking, is all.

Lateral

2011-05-01, 09:39 AM

Wait, they don't stack for unarmed damage? Maybe I should reread CC, I don't remember that.

Godskook

2011-05-01, 01:29 PM

Monk and Fist of the Forest levels don't stack for either Monk or Fist of the Forest class features. Why should they be treated as interchangeable for the Superior Unarmed Strike feat?

You're suffering from a bad case of wishful thinking, is all.

Incorrect, actually.......................................... .(ok, I'm confused. I never prepared for Curmudgeon being wrong in a strict RAW discussion)

Anyway, the exact wording in FotF is:

If your unarmed attack already deals this amount of damage, increase the base damage to the next step indicated on the monk class table.

Which, when combined with SUAS, you get 2d8 UAS damage. Thing is, it has to combine the other way, using SUAS first, and then getting the FotF boost on that.

Lateral

2011-05-01, 01:48 PM

So if you take SUS first, they stack, huh? Weird, but workable.

Kaeso

2011-05-01, 01:57 PM

So if you take SUS first, they stack, huh? Weird, but workable.

And, if it works, you can get the same damage as a lvl 20 monk on level 8 if you slap a monk's belt on it.

Lateral

2011-05-01, 02:30 PM

Monk's belt and SUS don't stack.

Godskook

2011-05-01, 02:49 PM

And, if it works, you can get the same damage as a lvl 20 monk on level 8 if you slap a monk's belt on it.

And that's where the problem is. Assuming a monk belt stacks with SUAS, it does so in the poor way, setting us back to 2d6 damage, cause SUAS only gives 4 monk levels.

LOTRfan

2011-05-01, 02:57 PM

If I remember correctly, isn't there two new Ranger combat styles in dragon? One of them was beastwrestler. Maybe that has what you are looking for?

EDIT: There's also another, called strong arm. Both are in Dragon #326. I believe it is 3.5, but it may be 3.0.

Curmudgeon

2011-05-01, 05:28 PM

Incorrect, actually.......................................... .(ok, I'm confused. I never prepared for Curmudgeon being wrong in a strict RAW discussion)
Well, I do think you're confused. :smallsmile: But let's get back to the RAW.

Anyway, the exact wording in FotF is:
If your unarmed attack already deals * this amount of damage, increase the base damage to the next step indicated on the monk class table.
Which, when combined with SUAS, you get 2d8 UAS damage.
Sorry, you're not reading that correctly. Without Monk levels Superior Unarmed Strike yields a maximum of 2d6 damage. The maximum amount on the Fist of the Forest table for unarmed damage is 1d10. If your unarmed attack deals 2d6 damage from Superior Unarmed Strike, it does not deal the amount of damage listed on the Fist of the Forest table. Hence, Fist of the Forest does not provide any increase.

* - You seem to be reading an "at least" at this point, but that's just wishful thinking ─ it's not in the rule.

Coidzor

2011-05-02, 12:27 PM

So, a question. How much damage would a claw or slam attack need to do in order to be worth adding its damage to one's unarmed strike via Beast Strike (Dragon 355 p.76)?

Can a Warforge's slam be Greater Mighty Whallop'd?

Godskook

2011-05-02, 01:12 PM

Can a Warforge's slam be Greater Mighty Whallop'd?

Probably not, for the same reason that there's a magic weapon spell and a magic fang spell.

Curmudgeon

2011-05-02, 01:18 PM

Can a Warforge's slam be Greater Mighty Whallop'd?
Actually, yes; it meets the target requirement:
Target: One bludgeoning melee weapon

Coidzor

2011-05-02, 01:33 PM

Alright, so any way for a cleric or archivist to cast Greater Mighty Whallop without resorting to extreme alternate spell source cheese or casting miracle?

Because, if so, it seems like a Warforged Cleric/Sacred Fist with Beast Strike might use the Wu Jen spell Giant Size via Miracle and then GMW both unarmed strike and his slam(wait...can that even get past colossal? in which case he just skips them if he can reach colossal size)... + INA and the rules for Colossal+ creatures...

gorfnab

2011-05-02, 03:09 PM

Here's one I came up with a while back.

Human Swashbuckler 3/ Fighter 2/ Shou Disciple 5/ Kensai 10
1. B: Weapon Finesse, Improved Unarmed Strike, Weapon Focus Unarmed Strike
3. Dodge
4. B: Mobility
5. B: Combat Expertise
6. Snap Kick
7. B: Spring Attack
9. B: Deflect Arrows or Improved Trip, Combat Reflexes
12. Bounding Assault
15. Improved Natural Attack
18. Rapid Blitz

Greenish

2011-05-02, 03:16 PM

Probably not, for the same reason that there's a magic weapon spell and a magic fang spell.I thought warforged's slam is a valid target for magic weapon.

Hiro Protagonest

2011-05-02, 03:18 PM

gorfnab

2011-05-02, 04:19 PM

Superior unarmed strike is better then improved natural attack.
But in that build Superior Unarmed Strike would be redundant/useless.

Hiro Protagonest

2011-05-02, 04:23 PM

But in that build Superior Unarmed Strike would be redundant/useless.

How would it be?

gorfnab

2011-05-02, 04:25 PM

How would it be?
The fifth level of Shou Disciple (level 10 in the build) gives you 2d6 unarmed strike damage versus the 2d6 unarmed strike damage that Superior Unarmed Strike would give you at level 16. Also Superior Unarmed Strike would not stack with the Unarmed Strike from Shou Disciple unless actual levels of Monk were taken. Even then Shou Disciple still gives you better unarmed strike damage.

MeeposFire

2011-05-02, 06:27 PM

I thought warforged's slam is a valid target for magic weapon.

I think you would need magic fang since it is a magic weapon though if you had a battlefist you could cast it on that.

Curmudgeon

2011-05-02, 08:07 PM

Here's one I came up with a while back.

Human Swashbuckler 3/ Fighter 2/ Shou Disciple 5/ Kensai 10
1. B: Weapon Finesse, Improved Unarmed Strike, Weapon Focus Unarmed Strike
4. B: Mobility
15. Improved Natural Attack

I think you can tighten some of this up, depending on where you place those levels.

You can buy Improved Unarmed Strike in the form of an item which grants the feat. There's a cheap option in the form of Bracers of Striking (Magic of Faerûn) which you could (just barely) afford as early as level 2. The more expensive option is the Fanged Ring (Dragon Magic), which you can buy as an upgrade before level 9; that also grants Improved Natural Attack (unarmed strike).

Mobility is available as a +1 cost armor enhancement which grants the feat (Magic Item Compendium). You can add armor enhancements to both Bracers of Armor (see Arms and Equipment Guide on page 130) and robes (see Magic Item Compendium on page 234). These don't count as armor, so you'll still be able to use a Monk's Belt if you want that for the AC Bonus.

So, what can you do with three extra feats? :smallsmile:

MeeposFire

2011-05-02, 08:09 PM

robes are nice since they are a valid target for the magic vestment spell unlike the bracers.

Curmudgeon

2011-05-02, 08:37 PM

robes are nice since they are a valid target for the magic vestment spell unlike the bracers.
Yes, that's the preferred option if you've got a Cleric or Favored Soul in your party. It is necessary to mention Bracers of Armor, though, because the rules for adding non-numerical armor enhancements like Mobility were written expressly for them. It was only later that Magic Item Compendium explicitly treated Arms and Body slot magic items identically for armor enhancements. (The precedent's been there all along in the rules, with Bracers of Armor (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/wondrousItems.htm#bracersofArmor) and Robe of the Archmagi (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/wondrousItems.htm#robeoftheArchmagi) demonstrating armor enhancements in Arms and Body slots, respectively.)

Cyphrus

2011-05-02, 10:28 PM

If it's not too late to pipe in, and you're not adverse to Dragon material, there's a fantastic ACF from Dragon Mag #349, pg.42. It's called "City Brawler".

In a nutshell, for a single level dip, you trade medium armor, shields and martial weapons from that barbarian level for improved unarmed strike and the two weapon fighting line, yep, the whole thing! oh, and a reduced penalty on improvised weapons.

Not bad for a two level dip, especially if you throw in pounce, whirling frenzy and wolf totem. You've got a very good package there!

Curmudgeon

2011-05-02, 11:27 PM

ACF from Dragon Mag #349, pg.42. It's called "City Brawler".
...
Not bad for a two level dip, especially if you throw in pounce, whirling frenzy and wolf totem. You've got a very good package there!
Better check again. First, that's page 92. Next, you need more than a two-level dip. Improved Two-Weapon Fighting when fighting unarmed only kicks in at Barbarian level 6, and Greater Two-Weapon Fighting when fighting unarmed at level 11.

Godskook

2011-05-02, 11:42 PM

Alright, so any way for a cleric or archivist to cast Greater Mighty Whallop without resorting to extreme alternate spell source cheese or casting miracle?

Greater Anyspell would do it, but only consistently for Archivists, since its a domain only spell for clerics.

I thought warforged's slam is a valid target for magic weapon.

Does it operate under the normal rules for natural weapons? Cause you gotta use magic fang on natural weapons normally.

faceroll

2011-05-02, 11:51 PM

Well, I do think you're confused. :smallsmile: But let's get back to the RAW.

Sorry, you're not reading that correctly. Without Monk levels Superior Unarmed Strike yields a maximum of 2d6 damage. The maximum amount on the Fist of the Forest table for unarmed damage is 1d10. If your unarmed attack deals 2d6 damage from Superior Unarmed Strike, it does not deal the amount of damage listed on the Fist of the Forest table. Hence, Fist of the Forest does not provide any increase.

* - You seem to be reading an "at least" at this point, but that's just wishful thinking ─ it's not in the rule.

Does SUAS ever grant you 1d8 base damage? 1d8 becomes 1d10 with INA, which then lets you use FotF to advance your damage.

Coidzor

2011-05-03, 12:16 AM

Godskook: Sweet, thanks.

So what about the Beast Strike angle?

Any thoughts on what kind of damage it would have to add to feel it was worth the feat? More than 2d6? Enough to equal or exceed the 2d6 base unarmed strike damage that SUS would give at high level when combined with whatever one's unarmed strike damage is?

Thurbane

2011-05-03, 12:22 AM

Curmudgeon

2011-05-03, 07:21 AM

Does SUAS ever grant you 1d8 base damage? 1d8 becomes 1d10 with INA, which then lets you use FotF to advance your damage.
Yes, but only at levels 8-11. Superior Unarmed Strike keeps advancing with your level, and as soon as you get to character level 12 you would lose any unarmed damage benefit from Fist of the Forest. As I said, there's really no reason to take the class if you've got the feat.

faceroll

2011-05-03, 08:30 AM

Yes, but only at levels 8-11. Superior Unarmed Strike keeps advancing with your level, and as soon as you get to character level 12 you would lose any unarmed damage benefit from Fist of the Forest. As I said, there's really no reason to take the class if you've got the feat.

Ah, ok. That's kind of a bummer.

dextercorvia

2011-05-03, 08:44 AM

Greater Anyspell would do it, but only consistently for Archivists, since its a domain only spell for clerics.

From most debates I've read on the topic, (Greater) Anyspell is of no use to a caster that doesn't have actual domain slots to use it with...

What works is a Cleric with the spell domain, who takes the spontaneous domain ACF. Then, between battles, he can cast Greater Anyspell from a regular slot to refresh his Greater Mighty Wallop in his domain slot.

Thurbane

2011-05-03, 10:01 AM

What works is a Cleric with the spell domain, who takes the spontaneous domain ACF. Then, between battles, he can cast Greater Anyspell from a regular slot to refresh his Greater Mighty Wallop in his domain slot.
Now that's a nice workaround. :smallwink:

dextercorvia

2011-05-03, 10:08 AM

I was forgetting earlier that it was hours per level, so that probably isn't necessary. If you have the reach spell or ocular spell metamagic, you can prepare a mm version of GMW with Greater Anyspell (it will still be 5th level or less). Then cast a DMM Chained version of it. So our Warforged Sacred Fist can get two slams, a bite, and iterative unarmed strikes sized a colossal. for hours per day. If you do get dispelled, you can get back up to speed for the cost of a 6th level slot and 4 turn attempts.