Skill monkey murderer? (assassin build suggestions)

[Hirax]

Thanks to all contributors so far!

I've never played an assassin before, and in anticipation of giving it a try sooner or later (hopefully my next character) I figured I'd start gathering info on how to make them work. Of course, being just an assassin is pretty boring, so being a good infiltrator and skill monkey would be a nice plus. As a litmus test, I'd like the character to be able to sneak into a guarded mansion/castle/caravan, detect and disable traps, and be able to murder everyone there one by one through luring, ambushing, and other cloak and dagger methods. Or if it's prudent just nail the target(s) and sneak back out without anyone being aware anything happened until long after I'm gone.

Ability focus increases death attack's DC by 2, an assassin's dagger by +1, and bracers of murder increase it by +2. Sickening strike and terrifying strike together reduce an enemy's fort save by 4 by making them shaken and sickened, no save, you just need to hit with a sneak attack for it to work. Anything immune to sickening and fear is also probably immune to death attacks anyway, so I'm going to just count that all together as an effective +9 to death attacks, which actually starts to make them viable against bigger things that aren't immune. An int mod of 6 would mean the DC would be 25+assassin level. A feycraft dagger too, so I can dump strength. Or some other light weapon (feycraft gives you weapon finesse if the weapon is light, from DMG2). edit: a light hammer actually seems like a good idea, since it has a 20' throwing range increment, which will be helpful in conjunction with the sniper's eye spell. Plus, it does bludgeoning damage, and for DR purposes that's generally better.

So far I have this build, presumably with a lesser tiefling:
Rogue3/swordsage2/assassinX/???
1: Darkstalker (creatures with blindsight and tremorsense must make spot/listen checks to locate you, Lords of Madness)
3: Sickening strike (Drow of the Underdark)
6: Ability focus (MM1)
9: Terrifying strike (Drow of the Underdark)

Other feat possibilites for death attack DC increasers:
Aleval school, -2 save penalty (Drow of the Underdark, has annoying pre reqs)
Favored in guild, +4 to DC, but roleplaying requirements that would probably need approval. See posts 20 and 21 in this thread for more info.

Rogue 3 is because the 2 DotU feats require 2d6 sneak attack, and I don't want to postpone entry into assassin. I thought about going swordsage 5 and using assassin's stance to qualify for those feats, but the dilemma there is that then I wouldn't be able to take one at 3, and one of them would need to be pushed back to level 12. Factotum is also a strong contender, since it's another int based classed, and I'll be pumping int.

Hunter's sense stance (grants scent)
Child of shadow stance (obtain concealment if you move 10 feet in a round)
Sudden leap (swift action jump, great from studying from a distance, then quickly getting to victim regardless of obstacles)
Emerald razor (melee attack as a touch attack)
Shadow blade technique (roll 2d20 for an attack)
Shadow jaunt (50 foot teleport, replacement for dimension door)
Those are probably the 4 maneuvers I'll keep ready, I'm open to suggestions though, I don't much experience in maneuver selection.

Any assassin spells outside the SRD and Spell Compendium that are worth inclusion? So far my choices would be:
1: True strike, ghost sound, feather fall, silent portal (negate sound from door/window)
2: Alter self, invisibility, spider climb, absorb weapon (hide weapon in your body)
3: Amorphous form (become ooze, slip through any opening at least 2"), nondetection, deeper darkness, deep slumber
4: Sniper's eye (death attack from up to 60' away with a ranged weapon), modify memory, deathsight, clairaudience/clairvoyance

Though this assumes I even make it to assassin 10 and can get 4 of each level. On one hand, it's the easiest way to increase my death attack DC. But on the other hand, the returns of going that far in are questionable. It might be better to bail out at assassin level 5 and grab a prc that would somehow advance my spellcasting another 2 levels. I just wouldn't know what prc to pick.

[JaronK]

Since you're going so Int based, Factotum 3 would see to be a better entry than Rogue 3... it gives Int to Str and Dex based skills and checks (including initiative) and gives you Iaijutsu Focus as a class skill, letting you use Gnomish Quickrazors for extra damage and images from Assassin's Creed for character artwork.

JaronK

[ILM]

Sickening strike and terrifying strike together reduce an enemy's fort save by 4 by making them shaken and sickened, no save, you just need to hit with a sneak attack for it to work.
Aleval school does the same, from the same book. Free -6! :smalltongue:

As for spells, you NEED Wraithstrike (SpC). I'd also pick Dimension Door, Freedom of Movement, and/or Deathsight (CM, makes your next attack a death attack without needing 3 rounds). Phantom Foe from SC is also very cool, but the Will save hurts.

[Kaeso]

Since you're going so Int based, Factotum 3 would see to be a better entry than Rogue 3... it gives Int to Str and Dex based skills and checks (including initiative) and gives you Iaijutsu Focus as a class skill, letting you use Gnomish Quickrazors for extra damage and images from Assassin's Creed for character artwork.

JaronK

What I've always wondered is if the Int to Str based checks also applied to attack and damage.

[HalfDragonCube]

Since you're going so Int based, Factotum 3 would see to be a better entry than Rogue 3... it gives Int to Str and Dex based skills and checks (including initiative) and gives you Iaijutsu Focus as a class skill, letting you use Gnomish Quickrazors for extra damage and images from Assassin's Creed for character artwork.

JaronK

Yup, Factotum from Dungeonscape is the way to go. You get things like sneak attack damage from your pool of inspiration points. Plus, lots of skill points for stuff like Move Silently and Hide.

[Coidzor]

What I've always wondered is if the Int to Str based checks also applied to attack and damage.

Pretty sure it doesn't. You've gotta spend inspiration points on that one, sorry. Swashbuckler 3 gets it to attack I believe... and there's some ways to get it to damage...

If one's DM did rule it to be that way it'd be very, very nice though. Since IIRC, it'd be both Strength or Dex AND Intelligence to hit/damage.

[true_shinken]

Yup, Factotum from Dungeonscape is the way to go. You get things like sneak attack damage from your pool of inspiration points. Plus, lots of skill points for stuff like Move Silently and Hide.

Factotum gets as much skill points as Rogue.
Factotum adds some Int synergy for other stuff, but it will delay the level in which you'll take your ambush feats, unless you can persuade your DM that Cunning Strike is the sneak attack class ability (and it isn't).
Factotum 3-4/Swordsage 3 or something like that gets you Assassin Stance, though. If you can get your DM to accept Kung-fu Genius to work with Swordsage, that would work well.

Another tip - you're already part devil and stuff, so if you go with the factotum route, think about a faustian pact. You get two feats (exactly what you need) in the level you want. So you could get everything for your combo as soon as you go into Assassin.

Another alternative - Factotum 3/Sneak Attack Fighter 1/Swordsage 1 into Assassin. You qualify at ECL 5, you get your maneuvers and you get enough sneak attack for the feats you want at Assassin 1. You do lose a few skill points, though.

[Curmudgeon]

Factotum gets as much skill points as Rogue.
Only if the Rogue is dumb. Rogues get (8 + INT mod) skill points each level. Factotums get only (6 + INT mod) skill points each level, so the Factotum has to start out 4 INT points higher than the Rogue just to keep up.

With point buy I never start a Rogue with less than INT 14 before racial modifiers, and typically 16 afterward.

[Coidzor]

Only if the Rogue is dumb. Rogues get (8 + INT mod) skill points each level. Factotums get only (6 + INT mod) skill points each level, so the Factotum has to start out 4 INT points higher than the Rogue just to keep up.

With point buy I never start a Rogue with less than INT 14 before racial modifiers, and typically 16 afterward.

A popular route with Rogues is to have more Dex than Int focus so either way is entirely probable.

[Hirax]

Hmm, lots of thinking. I did think about factotum, but I decided the increased skill points (rogue gets 8, factotum gets 6), real sneak attack damage, the ACF that let's you hit normally non-sneakable things in exchange for the crappy trap sense feature, evasion, and ability to get an ambush feat at level 3 made rogue worth while. All of the sneak attack feats require 2d6 sneak attack damage as well, so I'd need a second level in fighter to pull off qualifying, and I'm not sure that's worth giving up all those swordsage abilities, even if it makes me MAD. A faustian pact is a pretty awesome idea though, hopefully I could pull that off to get the aleval school feat. I don't think I'd opt for a kung fu genius adaption for swordsage, since at level 2 it would only get me int to AC instead of wisdom to AC.

I assumed point buy 28 and envisioned my stats as 16 int, 14 dex, con, and wisdom, and 8 strength and cha. Lesser tiefling modifies by +2 dex and int, and -2 cha. I might also consider being a phrenic creature (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/monsters/phrenicCreature.htm) if I can buy off the LA, in which case I'd opt for a psionic assassin. Though that opens a much bigger can of worms, are there guidelines for converting spells to powers? Because deathsight is an awesome spell, and I'm glad it was pointed out. Any good ways to make its casting time less then a standard action, though?

edit: important note, not this (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20040723d) psionic assassin, the one in Secrets of Sarlona. The SoS one is carbon copy of the SRD one, just with powers instead of spells.

[Dusk Eclipse]

Hmm, lots of thinking. I did think about factotum, but I decided the increased skill points (rogue gets 8, factotum gets 6), real sneak attack damage, the ACF that let's you hit normally non-sneakable things in exchange for the crappy trap sense feature, evasion, and ability to get an ambush feat at level 3 made rogue worth while. All of the sneak attack feats require 2d6 sneak attack damage as well, so I'd need a second level in fighter to pull off qualifying, and I'm not sure that's worth giving up all those swordsage abilities, even if it makes me MAD. A faustian pact is a pretty awesome idea though, hopefully I could pull that off to get the aleval school feat. I don't think I'd opt for a kung fu genius adaption for swordsage, since at level 2 it would only get me int to AC instead of wisdom to AC.

I assumed point buy 28 and envisioned my stats as 16 int, 14 dex, con, and wisdom, and 8 strength and cha. Lesser tiefling modifies by +2 dex and int, and -2 cha. I might also consider being a phrenic creature (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/monsters/phrenicCreature.htm) if I can buy off the LA, in which case I'd opt for a psionic assassin. Though that opens a much bigger can of worms, are there guidelines for converting spells to powers? Because deathsight is an awesome spell, and I'm glad it was pointed out. Any good ways to make its casting time less then a standard action, though?


Normally the Converted PP cost of a spell is the lavel where you would get an equivalent level spell so for example 7 PP for a level four power; and for changing it to an standard action power (compression (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/compression.htm) for example) is 6 extra power points, so not available till you have ML 13 (Level 10 assassin + PM)

[Jallorn]

If you take a single level of Factotum with Able Learner, then all skills are effectively class skills for all classes.

How this works: Once you have access to a skill as a class skill, it is treated as a class skill for skill point limits, but not costs. Able Learner makes all ranks cost one skill point, no matter if it's a class skill or not.

Also, combining Rogue and Swashbuckler is a great combo with Daring Outlaw. I built an assassin once that was Rogue 1/Swashbuckler X/Assassin 1, grabbing Daring Outlaw when I grabbed the Assassin level. That only really works if you're able to take a level of a SA granting PRC. What this did though was grant me SA as a Rogue one level below my class level, plus another die from Assassin. On top of this, I had a high BAB and Int to attack.

[Coidzor]

If you go with Rogue, consider the Changeling, since the Changeling Rogue Substitution Levels have 10+int skill points.

[Hirax]

If you go with Rogue, consider the Changeling, since the Changeling Rogue Substitution Levels have 10+int skill points.

Ooh that's tempting. On the one hand, I really want trapfinding, but on the other, I love skill points. Even if it's only a net of +1 more skill points since tieflings get +2 int, it's still tempting since skill points drop off once I start taking assassin levels. Plus changelings get their shapechanging ability at will, which might let me dump alter self for another spell...this is going to be a tough choice.

I thought about able learner, but my 3 current chosen classes have good enough skill lists that I think I'm going to pass.

Also, I'm thinking about the following skill tricks:
Assume quick (eliminate spot check bonus to people familiar with person you're disguised as)
Clarity of vision (see invisibilty for 1 round)
Spot the weak point (make spot check, next attack is touch attack)
Conceal spellcasting (sleight of hand check to hide spellcasting)

I thought about others, but I didn't see a use for them. A collar of umbral metamorphosis and boots of springing and striding will give me a 50' land speed, combined with sudden leap all the movement ones don't seem to do much for me.

Also, just if it helps establish a clearer direction for how I visualize this character, as a litmus test I'd like the character to be able to sneak into a guarded mansion/castle/caravan, detect and disable traps, and be able to murder everyone there one by one through luring, ambushing, and other cloak and dagger methods. Or if it's prudent just nail the target(s) and sneak back out without anyone being aware anything happened until long after I'm gone.

[Coidzor]

Ooh that's tempting. On the one hand, I really want trapfinding, but on the other, I love skill points. Plus changelings get their shapechanging ability at will, which might let me dump alter self for another spell...this is going to be a tough choice.

:smallconfused: Was pretty sure you got both from Changeling Rogue 1. Changeling doesn't get the advantages of NA bonuses and nifty things that alter self gets though, so that's a potential factor, IIRC.

[Hirax]

:smallconfused: Was pretty sure you got both from Changeling Rogue 1. Changeling doesn't get the advantages of NA bonuses and nifty things that alter self gets though, so that's a potential factor, IIRC.

Looking at it again, I can see how this would be unclear at first, it took me a couple readings to digest everything. I first read it as you give up trapfinding only when you take the social intuition ability at first level, but how the 10+int skill point entry is worded, it makes me think you need to take social intuition to qualify for the 10 skill points.


Changeling rogue substitution levels have the class skills of the standard rogue class, plus one knowledge skill chosen when the first racial substitution level is taken.

[Jallorn]

Looking at it again, I can see how this would be unclear at first, it took me a couple readings to digest everything. I first read it as you give up trapfinding only when you take the social intuition ability at first level, but how the 10+int skill point entry is worded, it makes me think you need to take social intuition to qualify for the 10 skill points.

I have a solution: 1 level of Factotum will give you trapfinding, then take Changeling Rogue for 10+Int skill points. Also, most DMs I've played with have agreed to houserule that a Changeling (being a cross between Human and Doppleganger) qualifies for Able Learner. (Yes I'm pushing this combo, it's good.)

[Akal Saris]

I just wanted to briefly note that swordsage can qualify for the sneak attack feats through a stance you pick up at 5th level which grants 2d6 sneak attack. So Swordsage 5/Assassin 10 is certainly viable, albeit weaker than Swordsage 15.

Good luck with the character, by the way! My own assassin has been a blast to play :smallbiggrin:

[Person_Man]

Consider a Spell Storing (www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Spell_Storing) weapon and have an ally place a good debuff in it (or use a wand, or your limited Assassin spells). I'm fond of Poison (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Poison_(Spell)) (which is a 3rd level Druid spell), but their are literally dozens of good options.

If you're going to be playing at ECL 13 or higher, you may wish to look into a Binder build in place of your standard Assassin. The Marchosias vestige grants Death Attack, +16 Competence bonuses to Hide and Move Silently, at will Gaseous Form, and +3d6 bonus damage whenever you attack someone capable of dealing Sneak Attack, Sudden Strike, or Skirmish. It's noteworthy because the Binder has a large toolbox of tricks which he can change every morning, whereas the Assassin is locked into a single play style with more limited resources.

[Hirax]

Huh, just found an interesting bit of cheese. This Dragons of Faerun web enhancement (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20070425a) has a guild you can join (page 5-6) that increases your death attack DC by +4.

Now I need to start working on a potential binder assassin to see how it stacks up. I might play both at some point. This will be fun! Right now I'm struggling to figure out how I should slot all my 4th level spells. It's hard but I think I might give up greater invisibility. Then I need to see how the pisonic assassin from Secrets of Sarlona stacks up, since they need to wait until level 9 for 4th level powers, and they can only learn 10 powers too.

[Curmudgeon]

Huh, just found an interesting bit of cheese. This Dragons of Faerun web enhancement (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20070425a) has a guild you can join (page 5-6) that increases your death attack DC by +4.
That's a good find, and makes Favored in Guild (Dungeon Master's Guilde II, pages 227-228) as good a feat as Ability Focus (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsterFeats.htm#abilityFocus) and Improved Death Attack [Epic] (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/feats.htm#improvedDeathAttack) combined!

[Hirax]

So in doing a little more research I came across someone saying that if you took an ACF that let you sneak attack undead, constructs, etc., then you could also use death attack on them. This strikes me as crazy?

Also, a light hammer actually seems like the best weapon choice, since it has a 20' throwing range increment, which will be helpful in conjunction with the sniper's eye spell. -2 to sneak attack from 60' away? Yes please. Plus, it does bludgeoning damage, and for DR purposes that's generally better. I need help making it fit cosmetically in my mind though, an assassin using a bludgeoning weapons seems weird. I might stick with the dagger for that reason alone.

[ffone]

+1 on throwing hammers and Sniper's Shot [spell...also get a bow and chamber a wand of Sniper's Shot in it! Sneak attacks stuff from a thousand feet away while using HiPS or at least sniping!

[elonin]

If you take a single level of Factotum with Able Learner, then all skills are effectively class skills for all classes.

How this works: Once you have access to a skill as a class skill, it is treated as a class skill for skill point limits, but not costs. Able Learner makes all ranks cost one skill point, no matter if it's a class skill or not.

Also, combining Rogue and Swashbuckler is a great combo with Daring Outlaw. I built an assassin once that was Rogue 1/Swashbuckler X/Assassin 1, grabbing Daring Outlaw when I grabbed the Assassin level. That only really works if you're able to take a level of a SA granting PRC. What this did though was grant me SA as a Rogue one level below my class level, plus another die from Assassin. On top of this, I had a high BAB and Int to attack.

If you are taking a level of factotum to get all skills as in class then able learner is not needed. If you are taking able learner to set all skills as class skills then that doesn't work RAW.

[Jallorn]

If you are taking a level of factotum to get all skills as in class then able learner is not needed. If you are taking able learner to set all skills as class skills then that doesn't work RAW.

No, you misunderstand.

Okay, let's say you take Factotum, and then go into Fighter. Spot and Listen skills are still allowed to go up to full as if class skills, but each rank will cost 2 skill points. If you take Able Learner but have no levels of Factotum, then you can spend 1 skill point as a Fighter for 1 ranks of Spot, but can only get it up to half ranks as cross class. If you have Factotum and Able Learner, no matter the class, all skills cost 1 skill point per rank and can go up the full ranks.

[Cog]

+1 on throwing hammers and Sniper's Shot [spell...also get a bow and chamber a wand of Sniper's Shot in it! Sneak attacks stuff from a thousand feet away while using HiPS or at least sniping!
Note that Sniper's Shot really depends on caster level. Wand form is a kind of expensive way to do it.

[Curmudgeon]

Note that Sniper's Shot really depends on caster level. Wand form is a kind of expensive way to do it.
I think you might be confusing this with another spell. Sniper's Shot (Spell Compendium, page 194) requires only CL 1 to enable you to make your sneak attacks at any distance.

[elonin]

Jallorn, where do you get this interpretation from? Able learner allows you to spend one skill point on class cross skills, though you still have to obey cross class skill point maximum. And the idea that class skills carrying forward from any level forward is not supported by the rules (at least without some other feat than able learner).

[JaronK]

Jallorn, where do you get this interpretation from? Able learner allows you to spend one skill point on class cross skills, though you still have to obey cross class skill point maximum. And the idea that class skills carrying forward from any level forward is not supported by the rules (at least without some other feat than able learner).

Jallorn's right. If a skill is ever a class skill for you in any class, then the max ranks for that skill is 3+level... cross class at that point only raises the cost per point (which Able Learner fixes). See the skills section of the PHB, which is where he gets this.

JaronK

[Hirax]

JaronK is right. I think. Otherwise you would get situations where you'd have more than the max allowed ranks in a skill, if you maxed something as a class skill, then at the next level took a class that made it a cross class skill.

[Cog]

I think you might be confusing this with another spell. Sniper's Shot (Spell Compendium, page 194) requires only CL 1 to enable you to make your sneak attacks at any distance.
...I am, yeah.

[ffone]

I think you might be confusing this with another spell. Sniper's Shot (Spell Compendium, page 194) requires only CL 1 to enable you to make your sneak attacks at any distance.

Yeah, this is the spell I meant. As one of those swift-action spells with no caster level effects, it's wonderful if your DM allows chambered wands (and the Rules Compendium clause for swift wands of swift spells), or a custom wondrous item that casts it some number of times per day to the tune of 360 gp a pop (aka 1800 per 5).

Maybe Cog was thinking of - Hunter's Eye?, was it - that Ranger-2 spell that gives you +1d6 sneak attack / 3 CLs for one round?

Now, that looks like a good spell ffor a high level, wealthy character (or a gestalt ranger-rogue). Since it's Personal range, if your DM allows you to create a custom wondrous item that casts a Persisted version 1/day, you could potentially get extra sneak attack die for a cost of 360 gp x 8 x 3 per die (43,200 gp for 5 die, for example). Or even a staff might be worth it.

From a practical optimization standpoint, though, I tend to try to invest in spells to allow the rogue to sneak attack in cases where they are otherwise hosed (such as range of more than 30', or vs certain creature types via Vine/Golem/Grave strike) rather than pumping the damage.