Enhancement bonuses and spells

[Redland Jack]

I have to imagine that this question has been asked and answered many times before, but I can't seem to find the right search terms to locate it. :(

Assume a 10th level Bard with 12 Charisma. Somebody takes pity on him and hands him a Cloak of Charisma +6. He wears the cloak for a day.

1) Does he now 'know' two 4th level spells and four 3rd level spells?
2) If yes to 1, can he now cast those spells?
3) If yes to 1, and he loses the cloak, does he still 'know' the spells (even though he can't cast them anymore)?
4) If nothing else, can he now cast four 2nd level spells per day instead of three? (I'm pretty sure I've read that this is 'yes, but I might as well make sure!)

[tyckspoon]

Strictly speaking, no, he doesn't get to know his spells- that's a choice that is made as part of leveling up, and you are not offered another chance. Psychic Reformation or retraining rules could fix this. He would get his appropriate bonus slot(s) for the levels he previously knew, and he could use his now-accessible higher-level slots to cast extra copies or metamagic'd copies of his lower level spells.

[Keld Denar]

High ability scores never grant bonus spells KNOWN. They can grant bonus spells per day. A permanent item will grant them, but a spell like Eagles Splendor will not (because it specifically says it doesn't).

[Cog]

High ability scores never grant bonus spells KNOWN.
A Bard has to have sufficient Charisma to know spells as well as to cast them, so a Bard with 12 Cha would be short on spells known at that level.

[Allanimal]

A Bard has to have sufficient Charisma to know spells as well as to cast them, so a Bard with 12 Cha would be short on spells known at that level.

This may be splitting hairs, but the PHB says the bard needs a high enough CHA to learn the spell, not know the spell.

So, by RAW, after reading just that one sentence, it seems the bard can learn the spells and knownthem after the cloak comes off, just be unable to cast them.

I admit that I did not search for any rules or errata that may contradict or clarify this.

[Cog]

It says that, but that's not all it says.


To learn or cast a spell, a bard must have a Charisma score equal to...

[under_score]

So, by RAW, after reading just that one sentence, it seems the bard can learn the spells and knownthem after the cloak comes off, just be unable to cast them.

Regardless of RAW, I would certainly never allow a character to gain spells known based on an item enhancement bonus (or a spell or any thing along those lines) just as I wouldn't grant him extra skill points from a headband of int. Similarly, I would never allow any ability granted from an item to work as a prereq for a feat/class/feature/etc.

[Moriato]

This may be splitting hairs, but the PHB says the bard needs a high enough CHA to learn the spell, not know the spell.


I think you mean "the PHB says the bard needs a high enough CHA to cast the spell"

If so, that's correct. A bard with 12 CHA would still learn new 3rd, 4th, 5th and 6th level spells, but they'd be unable to cast them. CHA has no effect on how many spells they know per level.

[Cog]

Regardless of RAW, I would certainly never allow a character to gain spells known based on an item enhancement bonus (or a spell or any thing along those lines) just as I wouldn't grant him extra skill points from a headband of int. Similarly, I would never allow any ability granted from an item to work as a prereq for a feat/class/feature/etc.
As long as you're aware that it's a houserule, you are of course free to do so. The question that started the thread was based on the rules, though.

[Redland Jack]

Strictly speaking, no, he doesn't get to know his spells- that's a choice that is made as part of leveling up, and you are not offered another chance. Psychic Reformation or retraining rules could fix this. He would get his appropriate bonus slot(s) for the levels he previously knew, and he could use his now-accessible higher-level slots to cast extra copies or metamagic'd copies of his lower level spells.

Thanks. That makes sense.

So, he would get some value, since he'd get the extra slots, he just would have to cast his lower level spells.

This would mean that a 10th level wizard with 12 int would be in a better position if he could borrow somebody's spellbook with 4th level spells, since he could then cast them (while wearing his +6 int item). Similarly, a cleric or druid would be in even better shape while wearing a +6 wis item, since they would inherently know all the relevant 3rd-5th level spells.

And as a quick-aside, if the 12 Cha Bard gained level 12 and then increased his Cha by a point to 13, he would immediately get his 4 third level spells 'known', right?


I think you mean "the PHB says the bard needs a high enough CHA to cast the spell"

If so, that's correct. A bard with 12 CHA would still learn new 3rd, 4th, 5th and 6th level spells, but they'd be unable to cast them. CHA has no effect on how many spells they know per level.

Aha. So in that case, the 10th level bard with 12 cha would know some 3rd level spells (and could now cast them with the cloak), while he wouldn't know any 4th level spells (since he only knows 4th level spells at this level if he has high enough Cha, which he didn't have when he gained that level. Once he gains 11th level, he'll know some 4th level spells and be able to cast them while wearing the cloak).

[Cog]

Aha. So in that case, the 10th level bard with 12 cha would know some 3rd level spells .
This is incorrect. See my quote from the PHB above; the SRD has the same language.

[Moriato]

And as a quick-aside, if the 12 Cha Bard gained level 12 and then increased his Cha by a point to 13, he would immediately get his 4 third level spells 'known', right?



Aha. So in that case, the 10th level bard with 12 cha would know some 3rd level spells (and could now cast them with the cloak), while he wouldn't know any 4th level spells (since he only knows 4th level spells at this level if he has high enough Cha, which he didn't have when he gained that level. Once he gains 11th level, he'll know some 4th level spells and be able to cast them while wearing the cloak).

Ahh, I see what what you mean. Yeah, by RAW it looks like he wouldn't know any 4th level spells until 11th level, since he doesn't have a high enough CHA to have a bonus to spells per day at 10. Once he hit 11, however, hed gain 3 spells known regardless of his CHA or whether he could cast them or not. Silly, but yeah.

[Moriato]

This is incorrect. See my quote from the PHB above; the SRD has the same language.

Ahh, I was looking under the spells section, where it doesn't mention that at all. My bad

[Cog]

Err, that is in the Spells section. First sentence of the second paragraph.

[Allanimal]

I think you mean "the PHB says the bard needs a high enough CHA to cast the spell"

Actually, it says Learn and Cast. My original comment was know vs. Learn. The person I quoted used know, when the actual word in the PHB is learn. Nobody contested the cast part.


A bard with 12 CHA would still learn new 3rd, 4th, 5th and 6th level spells, but they'd be unable to cast them. CHA has no effect on how many spells they know per level.

The way I read it is no, they can't learn the 3rd or higher level spell with CHA 12. Donning the cloak may change that. Assuming it does, after learning the spell and the cloak comes off, the Bard still knows the spell (PHB doesn't say one can't), but just can't cast it. Presumably an Eagle's Splendor would fix that. Note, we aren't even talking bonus spells here.

The big question is whether an item will allow this, not sure if RAW says one way or another.

If one does forget spells when CHA drops, what happens if the bard suffers a CHA damage/drain and it is later restored. Has he lost all learned spells of the relevant levels?

[Cog]

The big question is whether an item will allow this, not sure if RAW says one way or another.
Items are allowed because there's nothing to disallow them. With an item, you have a new ability score, and that ability score is just as valid as the score you have without the item - you're merely vulnerable to more ways of changing that score.


If one does forget spells when CHA drops, what happens if the bard suffers a CHA damage/drain and it is later restored. Has he lost all learned spells of the relevant levels?
The limit is on learning spells, no knowing them. A Bard with Cha 12 could know 3rd level spells, but not cast them, if he learned them at a time when he had Cha 13 or better. Also, some sources of spells known (such as Dragon Compendium's bloodline feats) give you spells known while bypassing any learning mechanics.

[Moriato]

Err, that is in the Spells section. First sentence of the second paragraph.

I meant under the "arcane spells" section here (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/arcaneSpells.htm)


Sorcerers And Bards
Sorcerers and bards cast arcane spells, but they do not have spellbooks and do not prepare their spells. A sorcerer’s or bard’s class level limits the number of spells he can cast. His high Charisma score might allow him to cast a few extra spells. A member of either class must have a Charisma score of at least 10 + a spell’s level to cast the spell.

It only talks about needing CHA to cast, but obviously it does mention it under the respective classes' sections.

[Redland Jack]

Thanks all. I believe (though I wouldn't swear to it!) that I understand how this works now.

[Thurbane]

High ability scores never grant bonus spells KNOWN.
The only exception I can think of (for spont casters anyway) is the Duskblade, who's starting 0 level spells known is based on his INT bonus.