V's Lesson used against Xykon?

[sparkyinbozo]

I just had this thought seeing the V vs Zz'dtri threads (if it's been addressed before, I apologize):

V's big lesson from the soul splice was to realize that blasting away with arcane power isn't always the most efficient use of resources; however, Xykon prescribes to exactly that philosophy. Does anyone else suspect this will come around to bite him?

[Ancalagon]

Yes.

And Xykon is smart enough to know that. I guess he expects it - and does not care unless he has fun and goes down in a big showdown (he offered that to Roy).

Xykon knows he won't live forever.

[Thanatosia]

That wasn't the point of Xykon's Lesson. The point of Xykon's lesson was to not focus on one particular form of power to the exclusion of considering all other forces available. Xykon is quite willing to use every resource he has available, his hammer with brute force viewpoint is not a restriction, it's a way of looking past the stereotypical Wizard viewpoint that complex variety of abilities is an asset in and of itself..... Xykon is willing to hammer you down with one ability over and over if it's effective, but if it's not, he's also willing to crush you with his bare hands or accept the aid of his allies if that's what it takes.

Xykon's viewpoint is all about maximizing force. Complex tactics are irrelivent if you can concentrate enough power on the opponents weakness. But that does not mean you embrace one form of power and stick to it exclusively if it is not applying effective force.

[BlackestOfMages]

Only useing a sledgehammer? not quite, Xykon has used stealth a few times (early warning becons, invisable dragon) unusual effects (feeding minions to a guardian beastie because he couldn't be bothered to fight, symbol of insanity on a bouncy rubber ball, full use of his paralysing touch/ super strength, and energy drains) but as stated, he's learnt that power = power, and he'll use any at hand.

Also, we've seen him fight twice, and against heroes (namely things he considers not a threat), he plays the steriotypical villain, because he's dangerously genre savvy. The moment it became a threat to his reputation, he switched tactics almost imediatly. Also, you do need to use attacks to win a fight, ussualy, so we can't fault him there.

lastly, as a sorceror Xykon has a MAJOR advantage in the blasting department, in that he can use any of his spells, not just the ones he prepared, so it's a much more valid theory for him to go in all guns blazing, because he chooses what each spell slot is there and then. V has to choose each one at the start of the day, so he can get stuck

[Herald Alberich]

Yes.

And Xykon is smart enough to know that. I guess he expects it - and does not care unless he has fun and goes down in a big showdown (he offered that to Roy).

Xykon knows he won't live forever.

What? No, that's Tarquin's shtick.

Xykon is all about living (and preferably ruling) forever. "Anything to avoid the Big Fire Below," remember? He offered to let Roy go and gain levels because he still expects to win, and it's more fun to beat the hero who offers you a real challenge than it is to smash him to the ground with one spell.

[Ancalagon]

What? No, that's Tarquin's shtick.

Xykon is all about living (and preferably ruling) forever. "Anything to avoid the Big Fire Below,"

I knew someone would bring this up. ;)

Xykon is no dummy. He (un)lives by what you said but he also knows he won't be able to stay up forever. Can he go another hundred years? A thousand? He knows that someday someone will step on him and kill him or that someday, he will make some bad mistakes simply due to being bored.
Xykon has so far shown so much clue that it is highly unlikely he has not understand he gets his big show now, maybe he gets it longer than anyone else, but he knows it'll end one day, one way or the other.

[Da'Shain]

I knew someone would bring this up. ;)

Xykon is no dummy. He (un)lives by what you said but he also knows he won't be able to stay up forever. Can he go another hundred years? A thousand? He knows that someday someone will step on him and kill him or that someday, he will make some bad mistakes simply due to being bored.
Xykon has so far shown so much clue that it is highly unlikely he has not understand he gets his big show now, maybe he gets it longer than anyone else, but he knows it'll end one day, one way or the other.I'd tend to disagree. His endgame is controlling the gods themselves and remaking the universe in his image. Even if that doesn't happen, he's still stated that he will do anything to avoid the nether planes. When he offered Roy the chance to go gain a few more levels, it was just so that their final showdown would be more personally satisfying for Xykon; he doesn't want to go out as the climactic villain of some hero's story, he wants to keep killing off heroes in new and entertaining ways, as he's been doing for, what, almost a century now?

Tarquin's the one who knows he can't have it all forever. Xykon fully intends to. He knows there's a possibility of failure, and he has been defeated a few times before ... but as a Lich, he's immortal, as an epic Sorceror, he's indisputably one of the most powerful beings in the world, and I doubt he sees a serious reason why he couldn't eventually actually triumph for eternity.

[Herald Alberich]

Gotta agree with Da'Shain here. Xykon doesn't respect Good enough to think that it has a serious chance of keeping him down forever, no matter how long it tries. His philosophy is having more Force than anyone else, and being more capital-E Evil than anyone else (as laid out in SoD), and he believes that with both of those, he's ultimately unstoppable.

[skim172]

Xykon is purposeless. He has no ultimate objective and ever since he died, everything has no meaning for him. He doesn't follow any rules. It seems his only goal is the thrill of destruction and evil, destroying nations when he can, killing minions in entertaining ways when he can't.

I think, at his core, Xykon is bored. He can't really enjoy anything except killing and even that is tiresome. Redcloak's mission is a nice ride to hitch onto - something novel to attract his attention. But he has no dedication to it.

[Caractacus]

Xykon is purposeless. He has no ultimate objective and ever since he died, everything has no meaning for him. He doesn't follow any rules. It seems his only goal is the thrill of destruction and evil, destroying nations when he can, killing minions in entertaining ways when he can't.

I think, at his core, Xykon is bored. He can't really enjoy anything except killing and even that is tiresome. Redcloak's mission is a nice ride to hitch onto - something novel to attract his attention. But he has no dedication to it.

I agree. But there is some more to it now that there wasn't before.

Xykon certainly used to have no purpose at all apart from amusement, but now something has come along to add to this.

It seems clear to me that Xykon really does now see a goal for himself. The idea of trying to gain control of the Snarl is perfect for him:

1) It provides an interest that will challenge his abilities,

2) it allows him to mock the gods themselves, and especially at all that is Good and Lawful,

3) it at the same time might possibly provide for his immortality for eternity, rather than for aeons

Redcloak provides amusement for Xykon in his quest for the betterment of goblinkind, but this has scarcely affected Xykon's actions at all. Xykon, I am sure, has absolutely no interest at all, in goblinkind or little or none for Redcloak himself, really. If Redcloak slows him down or stops being a provider of amusement, then things will go seriously pear-shaped very rapidly for our favourite goblinoid (and, no, I don't mean Thog here...).

[Ancalagon]

I think, at his core, Xykon is bored. He can't really enjoy anything except killing and even that is tiresome. Redcloak's mission is a nice ride to hitch onto - something novel to attract his attention. But he has no dedication to it.

Mostly correct. But you are missing a crucial (and rarely mentioned) point from SoD:

Going for the gates will make sure the change to "something that is really not supposed to be" and "evil no matter how you look at it" (Lichdom) wasn't for nothing.
Remember it was THIS that concinved Xykon not to kill Right-Eye and Redcloak in the diner. When Redcloak brought up the gates, it did not seem to count for anything.

Even Xykon knows turning into a Lich was "wrong" and a very basic level and that he needs a "reason" that makes the change was not "for nothing".

Apart from that, you are correct.

[Grogmir]

I think V's 'lesson' will be shown at another time over than the Final Showdown.
I expect something like a strip were all the bad things that have happened to him and the group happen again. Yet with good planning and use of spells V just quickly extracts the group from the situation. Something like that.

I don't think V vs X is set up to be a battle between different wizarding philosphies though.

I disagree with those that X lacks a goal. In SoD he goes away from Redcloak for years he's shown to be more dedicated to the snarl than Redcloak, if that was possible with Red's backstory.

I agree though that the lichdom being a major cause of his dedication, "It's not all about power - but how much you are willing to debase yourself - and me I".... I can't remember the full quote

Just to think it'll all be okay if he could just taste coffee.

[Shhalahr Windrider]

I agree though that the lichdom being a major cause of his dedication, "It's not all about power - but how much you are willing to debase yourself - and me I".... I can't remember the full quote
SoD
“And me? I ripped off my own living flesh so that I wouldn’t have to admit weakness. You’re strictly little league compared to that.”

[Grogmir]

Thanks :smallsmile:

[KillianHawkeye]

If Redcloak slows him down or stops being a provider of amusement, then things will go seriously pear-shaped very rapidly for our favourite goblinoid (and, no, I don't mean Thog here...).

You couldn't mean Thog because Thog is not even a goblinoid.

[Caractacus]

You couldn't mean Thog because Thog is not even a goblinoid.

Yeah, you're right. However, I still felt that there was an evens chance of someone running off with that argument if I didn't specifically exclude it... :smallsigh:

[Kish]

If Redcloak slows him down or stops being a provider of amusement, then things will go seriously pear-shaped very rapidly for our favourite goblinoid (and, no, I don't mean Thog here...).
Why would Xykon take it out on Hobgoblin Warrior from Strip 433, Panel 3? :smallconfused:

(After the exchange about Thog, I couldn't resist.)

[Herald Alberich]

Why would Xykon take it out on Hobgoblin Warrior from Strip 433, Panel 3? :smallconfused:

Hell, why wouldn't he? :smallwink:

[Da'Shain]

Mostly correct. But you are missing a crucial (and rarely mentioned) point from SoD:Going for the gates will make sure the change to "something that is really not supposed to be" and "evil no matter how you look at it" (Lichdom) wasn't for nothing.
Remember it was THIS that concinved Xykon not to kill Right-Eye and Redcloak in the diner. When Redcloak brought up the gates, it did not seem to count for anything.
Even Xykon knows turning into a Lich was "wrong" and a very basic level and that he needs a "reason" that makes the change was not "for nothing".Apart from that, you are correct.Xykon doesn't care one fig for whether it was "right" or "wrong". He was angry about being a lich for one reason only: it prevented him from enjoying coffee anymore, and possibly some other pleasures we don't know about. Before being a lich, he was only a little frustrated at his lack of clear direction or goals, since he had other hobbies to keep him occupied; afterward, when his list of available pleasures was shortened, he latched more firmly onto the plan.

Redcloak might have intended to remind him about the unholiness of becoming a lich and how to make it worth the sacrifice, but Xykon cares only because of his own pleasure, not because he's broken some natural order or anything.

[Ancalagon]

Well, I think you take the "symbol" for the "thing". Therefore: I have to conclude you understood wrongly what ACTUALLY happened in that scene.

The coffee stood for EVERYTHING life is meant to be about. And Xykon lost all that. And he knew it. It was not about the coffee anymore.

[FreakyCheeseMan]

Why would Xykon take it out on Hobgoblin Warrior from Strip 433, Panel 3? :smallconfused:

(After the exchange about Thog, I couldn't resist.)

Um, I hate to break it to you, but that hobgoblin is *dead*.

[Valley]

Xykon is purposeless. He has no ultimate objective and ever since he died, everything has no meaning for him. He doesn't follow any rules. It seems his only goal is the thrill of destruction and evil, destroying nations when he can, killing minions in entertaining ways when he can't.


"An end to a means." To him, the fun is in the doing. The path, where he smells the roses, kills a few heroes, and gets a few cups of coffee. The end is not the point - the road to it is the point.

As long as he does not wear white gloves and starts speaking with a German accent...

[Kish]

Um, I hate to break it to you, but that hobgoblin is *dead*.
Why do you say that? To my knowledge, he only appeared in the panel which is described in his name. There are still thousands of living hobgoblins.

[Da'Shain]

Well, I think you take the "symbol" for the "thing". Therefore: I have to conclude you understood wrongly what ACTUALLY happened in that scene.

The coffee stood for EVERYTHING life is meant to be about. And Xykon lost all that. And he knew it. It was not about the coffee anymore.And I'd have to conclude that you ascribe too much introspection and respect for life to Xykon. When Redcloak offers to transform him, he even makes a joke about how little he cares about the natural order. Afterwards, he revels in his new power, and the only thing he ever shows anger at losing is his ability to drink coffee. Redcloak didn't tell him this would be a side effect, and he is peeved, to make an understatment.

I'd agree that it could be a symbol for how Xykon realizes he's become a monster and isn't actually alive anymore ... but it's not. It's Xykon finding there is a drawback to his new form and throwing a temper tantrum about it. Every other statement we have from him indicates how little he cares about the natural order in general and life specifically.

[Ancalagon]

Xykon has no respect for life.

But this shows that EVEN he, who was evil to the bone from the beginning knows that Lichdom is something that is not supposed to be - even if he made jokes about it earlier. Yes, it is THAT EVIL.


And now he has accepted that evil - he accepted it back then when he let Redcloak live. This shows just how evil and debased the Lich-Xykon is compared to the already very evil non-lich-Xykon.

The lack to taste Coffee is a symbol for not being a human anymore. It's not about the "coffee", it's a symbol for everything that makes a living being a living being. With losing that last part, Xykon has lost everything that connects him to his former self - he now is an undead abomination instead of being just "an evil human".

[Da'Shain]

Xykon has no respect for life.

But this shows that EVEN he, who was evil to the bone from the beginning knows that Lichdom is something that is not supposed to be - even if he made jokes about it earlier. Yes, it is THAT EVIL.


And now he has accepted that evil - he accepted it back then when he let Redcloak live. This shows just how evil and debased the Lich-Xykon is compared to the already very evil non-lich-Xykon.

The lack to taste Coffee is a symbol for not being a human anymore. It's not about the "coffee", it's a symbol for everything that makes a living being a living being. With losing that last part, Xykon has lost everything that connects him to his former self - he now is an undead abomination instead of being just "an evil human".I doubt we're going to agree on this. Pre-lich Xykon is just as evil and debased as post-lich Xykon, from what we know about him. The problem is that we only saw tidbits of his life, and so we don't actually see how's he dealt with threats in the past when he was actually angry. But alive, Xykon still kills and zombifies his own parents at a young age, murders someone for a nonmagical crown that caught his fancy, takes time out of his journey to wherever to indulge in the simple pleasure of mass murder, and kills someone for having too long a name.

The scene in the diner is the first time we've actually seen Xykon angry, which is what gives it its punch. But from what we know of him, it seems essentially par for the course for someone like him. The only true difference to his persona is that he's lost one of the things which used to give him pleasure, which simply means that he focuses more on another thing that does: being evil and, to quote Rich Burlew, "kind of a ****".

There is literally no reason for us to conclude that he views his new state as being "something that is not supposed to be" -- aside from your interpretation of that one scene. Which I hold is more in keeping with his character both before and after the transformation if it was simply Xykon getting truly angry at the loss of one of his few pleasures.

[Fish]

You're both right. The author uses that as a literary symbol, which the character cannot or does not perceive as such from his perspective.

[Arrakiz]

Plus- Xykon is not a villian with ambition or worthy goal- he's just "kind of a ****"- as said in pre-spech to the SoD. He trully and utterly- doesn't care if he IS a human or not. There is no philosopphy to it. Although- he has the other philosophy. The lesson for V. He does believe "POWER" is everything. And eny power at all be it magic, unlife, little pink bunnies- whatever- he just cares for the power at hand. And that's just why he is after the Snarl- to gain even MORE power. Xykon- much like Tarquin- cares for the style, but he does that for different reasons- he acts stylish bicouse being straitforward makes him bored. He knows he can easilly destroy most of his enemies with fire and lightning- but that would just be boring. That's really his problem- he is just on a quest of "never getting bored". That's really the reason he does enything- he want's to mock Gods for that very reason- for fleeting thrill of the act. To rull and shape? That's not for him and he knows this. Xykon is really much like V's dark refflection- a being overwelmed with the one ambition to gain complete power. Much like V's ambition to gain ultimate knowlege of the arcane arts. And they both do that for the SAME reason- bicouse that's the only thing they know and gives meaning to their lifes. And I'm completly sure given the chance- V would turn Lich to. V only recently started to think of things different then the ultimate power- his/her familly, his/her familiar, hell- up to this point he/she didn't even care for all that business with gates! But he/she saw firsthand what does it mean to pursue this path- it means losing everything. And that's where they are differnt- V cares while Xykon does not.

[martianmister]

There is no lesson that V could learn from Xykon, a homicidal maniac. Xykon's rants were nothing but hypocritic rhetoric.

[Kish]

And yet, Vaarsuvius manifestly did learn something from Xykon.

[Da'Shain]

You're both right. The author uses that as a literary symbol, which the character cannot or does not perceive as such from his perspective.That I'm more willing to accept. My problem was with the idea that this was Xykon having some big, life-changing revelation or facing a "what have I done" moment.


There is no lesson that V could learn from Xykon, a homicidal maniac. Xykon's rants were nothing but hypocritic rhetoric.There's plenty of lessons you can learn from homicidal maniacs. Just because they're hopelessly evil and possibly insane doesn't mean they're wrong about everything.

Or, to put it more bluntly ... (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/HitlerAteSugar)

[martianmister]

There's plenty of lessons you can learn from homicidal maniacs. Just because they're hopelessly evil and possibly insane doesn't mean they're wrong about everything.

"You should be powerful to be powerful" is not really a good lesson for V...


And yet, Vaarsuvius manifestly did learn something from Xykon.

Where is s/he said that?

[Da'Shain]

"You should be powerful to be powerful" is not really a good lesson for V..."There's more than one way to achieve power" is.

[martianmister]

"There's more than one way to achieve power" is.

:xykon: "There's more than one way to achieve power"

:vaarsuvius: "Wow, really? Does it involve being a lich and serial killer?"

:xykon: "Ofcourse! :smallcool:"

[Da'Shain]

:xykon: "There's more than one way to achieve power"

:vaarsuvius: "Wow, really? Does it involve being a lich and serial killer?"

:xykon: "Ofcourse! :smallcool:"Yeah, that's quite obviously the lesson V took away, considering V's newfound obsession with turning into an undead ... wait ...

And heck, that's not even what Xykon said. All Xykon said was "the type of power doesn't really matter all that much." Does that sound to you like he's saying "Become a lich or else you'll never be powerful!"

[martianmister]

Yeah, that's quite obviously the lesson V took away, considering V's newfound obsession with turning into an undead ... wait

That's the point: S/he didn't took any lesson from him...


And heck, that's not even what Xykon said. All Xykon said was "the type of power doesn't really matter all that much." Does that sound to you like he's saying "Become a lich or else you'll never be powerful!"

:xykon: "The type of power doesn't really matter all that much."

:vaarsuvius: "Then, as a lich who sold out his soul...Does soul-splice count as a legimate way to being powerful for you?"

:xykon: "Um, if you are alive and powerful enough to beat me...YEAH! :smallcool:"

:vaarsuvius: "Then..."

:xykon: "But you are not powerful enough...:smallamused: ENERGY DRAIN!"

[Kish]

You know, while Xykon is unable to defend himself by Energy Draining you into oblivion by reason of him not existing, blatant strawmanning is still not sound argument technique.

In other words, the fact that you can make invalid arguments with Xykon's face next to them proves that you can make invalid arguments with Xykon's face next to them, not that Xykon has nothing to teach Vaarsuvius.

[martianmister]

You know, while Xykon is unable to defend himself by Energy Draining you into oblivion by reason of him not existing, blatant strawmanning is still not sound argument technique.

Strawmanning? :smallconfused: That's pretty much what he said...


In other words, the fact that you can make invalid arguments with Xykon's face next to them proves that you can make invalid arguments with Xykon's face next to them, not that Xykon has nothing to teach Vaarsuvius.

Again, that's pretty much what he said. He condemned soul-splicers because they are death and not powerful enough to be immortal. He condemned V because he is getting help from them and not powerful enough to kill Xykon. What else?

[Da'Shain]

:xykon: "The type of power doesn't really matter all that much."

:vaarsuvius: "Then, as a lich who sold out his soul...Does soul-splice count as a legimate way to being powerful for you?"

:xykon: "Um, if you are alive and powerful enough to beat me...YEAH! :smallcool:"

:vaarsuvius: "Then..."

:xykon: "But you are not powerful enough...:smallamused: ENERGY DRAIN!"martianmister: There's no lesson you can learn from homicidal maniacs.
Doctors: What about all that information on human anatomy that torturers and mad scientists have learned over the years?
Generals: Or how about the tactics and strategies devised by some of history's most evil yet successful warlords?
Religious people: Don't forget the spiritual works that happen to also include accounts of some of the most horrific genocide and mass slaughter imaginable.
Etc, etc, etc ...
martianmister: Nope, we learned nothing from them, they were wrong about everything.

See how easy that is?

[martianmister]

martianmister: There's no lesson you can learn from homicidal maniacs.

I never said that. I said "There is no lesson that V could learn from Xykon, a homicidal maniac". Then I added: "Xykon's rants were nothing but hypocritic rhetoric". V should learn something from a homicidal maniac, or even Xykon. But, currently, I see no lesson he get from him...Like this:

:vaarsuvius: "That's impossible!"

http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g68/Cats_Are_Aliens/Banners/Zzdtri.png "Parody is protected speech."

[Da'Shain]

Well then, you missed the entire point of Xykon's speech to V while V was invisible. V didn't, though.

[Gurgeh]

I'd argue that V put Xykon's lesson into practice against Xykon himself immediately upon learning it.

When the soul splice ended, V could at least on paper have continued blasting away at Xykon - he had been using the spells of the spliced souls almost exclusively, and therefore would have had all of his normal prepared spells (possibly minus the ones he'd thrown at Qarr and the dragon - that still leaves a fair amount of high level spells). If V had not been considering Xykon's words (and reflecting on the soul splice in general) then he would likely have continued his usual behaviour and gone for an all-out blast on the lich when he knew he could not escape. It would have fizzled horribly, sure, but half of his epic soul-spliced spells fizzled as well.

But that's not what V did. Chucking a potion down O-chul's throat, using Blackwing to courier the phylactery, putting Explosive Runes on it: those are imaginative uses of his abilities - most crucially, uses that Xykon did not predict and was not able to effectively overcome. V managed to outsmart Xykon, who until that point had been consistently outsmarting V (the energy drains, the dispel magic, the magic traps etc etc).

So really, we don't need to see it being applied in the future, because it's already had a pretty good run.

[Virtu]

Well then, you missed the entire point of Xykon's speech to V while V was invisible. V didn't, though.

For the record, the coffee was absolutely about life.

He goes on to explain during the first diner meeting that tasting a horrible cup of coffee forces you out of the moment of misery in that coffee, to the moments of bliss granted by every single good cup you've ever had. This is literal and metaphorical. His choice of respite grants him some modicum of satisfaction.

Meaning, of course, that he understands that he can no longer distract himself from his own misery. It represents the fact that his choice is permanent, and that he will always be forced to live in the present with no escape from that choice. With no escape from his awareness of his current state, Xykon decides to make the best of his undeath as yet another means to an end. That end, however, must be worth how far he has debased himself. Basically, it means that the ante has been upped compared to his days among the living, and he has become that much more dangerous without an outlet. After all, if he can't have his respite, why shouldn't he try his damnedest to make sure everyone suffers worse than he is?

Though he isn't scholarly, he certainly isn't stupid. He has a predatory insight and cunning that has shown itself time and again. Though I don't have time to go digging for examples, it occurs to me that any time he has seemed clueless has been when he is attempting to indulge in a distraction, usually along the lines of making someone else hurt for his amusement.

[MesiDoomstalker]

V has definatly taken Xykon's lesson to heart. As Gurgeh has alread pointed out, if V had kept hir normal mentality after loosing the splice, s/he would of just continued blasting on the slim chance s/he would destroy Xykon and overcome Redcloak, Jirix, and Tsukiko. But s/he didin't.

S/he revived O-Chul, sent Blackwing to destroy the phylactery, and used explosive runes on it. Those actions are all in line with Xykon's definition of "power". S/he used her/his spell creativly to deter and slow Xykon and succeeded.

Even know, V (supposedly we havn't had many fights since then) is now preparing less directly offensive spells and using them more creativly. Like hir Power Word Stun trick with Gannji and always having a few spells s/he can cast without somatic components.

I'd say V has taken Xykon's lesson to heart and personally would love for hir to deliver the final blow with a awesome line. Particularly if V destroys his phylactery in this manner.

[Fitzclowningham]

This isn't directly related to the argument here, but I can't imagine why Xykon never polymorphed/shapechanged into something that *could* taste coffee. I know, I know: plot.

[SPoD]

This isn't directly related to the argument here, but I can't imagine why Xykon never polymorphed/shapechanged into something that *could* taste coffee. I know, I know: plot.

:redcloak: What I can't figure out is why you never polymorphed yourself into a shape that could taste coffee.

:xykon: Liches are immune to being polymorphed.

:redcloak: Yeah, but not effects you cast on yourself. See, it says so right in the monster entry.

:xykon: ...

:xykon: Son of a BITCH! :smallfurious:

In all seriousness, there's no evidence that Xykon knew any Polymorph spells before becoming a lich, and may not have had the opportunity to swap new spells in after becoming a lich. Therefore, he may not know HOW to polymorph himself, and no one else can do it for him.

[MesiDoomstalker]

:redcloak: What I can't figure out is why you never polymorphed yourself into a shape that could taste coffee.

:xykon: Liches are immune to being polymorphed.

:redcloak: Yeah, but not effects you cast on yourself. See, it says so right in the monster entry.

:xykon: ...

:xykon: Son of a BITCH! :smallfurious:

I wanted to point out the inconsitencies with this, but I can't stop laughing. :smallbiggrin:

[Fitzclowningham]

LOL Spod. Maybe he could switch a known spell next time he levels up.

[Cerlis]

i just thought of something. basically what V learned is that power doesnt matter if you have the wrong kind or use it the wrong way. as people already said there is the power of cleverness, teamwork, forthought all that V used.

So basically i think in the final showdown its going to be V and Roy (with the rest of the order doing other things) against Xykon and how is V going to use this to overcome him? find his weaknesses and expliot them. Now when Xykon beat Dorukon he exploited his one strength, being able to cast the same spell over and over. But what is the main weakness of Sorcerer? Spell selection. I think V is going to pull a major batman, and have her and roy completely immune to Xykon's main attacks, stop anything he pulls out of his sleeve (like scrolls and the like) and uses various spells in obscure ways, or use obscure spells that he has no way of neutralizing. I dont know what those would all be but thats what i think will happen.

It will be the perfect retaliation to Xykons telling the wizards he kills their preparedness doesnt matter if they dont have enough power, if his power is neutralized by a Wizards preparedness.

[MesiDoomstalker]

i just thought of something. basically what V learned is that power doesnt matter if you have the wrong kind or use it the wrong way. as people already said there is the power of cleverness, teamwork, forthought all that V used.

So basically i think in the final showdown its going to be V and Roy (with the rest of the order doing other things) against Xykon and how is V going to use this to overcome him? find his weaknesses and expliot them. Now when Xykon beat Dorukon he exploited his one strength, being able to cast the same spell over and over. But what is the main weakness of Sorcerer? Spell selection. I think V is going to pull a major batman, and have her and roy completely immune to Xykon's main attacks, stop anything he pulls out of his sleeve (like scrolls and the like) and uses various spells in obscure ways, or use obscure spells that he has no way of neutralizing. I dont know what those would all be but thats what i think will happen.

It will be the perfect retaliation to Xykons telling the wizards he kills their preparedness doesnt matter if they dont have enough power, if his power is neutralized by a Wizards preparedness.

I LOVE this idea.

[Arrakiz]

Easy enaugh would be the trick the dragon showed to V- the anti-magic field. Basicly- Xykon with no way to blast them is nothing while V- still has Roy on his side :smallbiggrin:.

[Kish]

Easy enaugh would be the trick the dragon showed to V- the anti-magic field. Basicly- Xykon with no way to blast them is nothing while V- still has Roy on his side :smallbiggrin:.
Aside from the fact that we know Xykon knows Superb Dispelling which would probably destroy the field, any epic attack spells Xykon knows are likely to go right through the anti-magic field.

[BlackestOfMages]

well, I wouldn't say you could learn nothing from Xykon. there are somethings you should not learn if you want to be a 'good' little androgenous elf (the homocide, for example) however, Xykon is still pretty smart, he understands about power, and magic - even if it's not aplied in a 'good' way

airquotes used to indicate alignment, not effectiveness...

what you just said was that there was nothing to ever learn from Josef Mengele, because even though he was a briliant doctor, chemist and scientist, he did some outstandingly evil things. so his knolledge is invalidated, due to being tainted.

[Valley]

what you just said was that there was nothing to ever learn from Josef Mengele, because even though he was a briliant doctor, chemist and scientist, he did some outstandingly evil things. so his knolledge is invalidated, due to being tainted.

Yet..many of it ended up in our science books, in our school books, and many of those doctors ended up working in colleges and hospitals after the war. Much of the material was used up to the 70s.

So, what I think you mean it Z's advice should NOT be used...let us hope V is smart enough NOT to think power is better than smarts.

[Ellye]

Xykon gave V quite a nice lecture. It was actually one of my favorite strips.

Apparently, V managed to shallow her pride enough to follow the advise of his opponent. A wise choice here.

And yes, I believe this will come back to bite Xykon.

[BlackestOfMages]

i just thought of something. basically what V learned is that power doesnt matter if you have the wrong kind or use it the wrong way. as people already said there is the power of cleverness, teamwork, forthought all that V used.

So basically i think in the final showdown its going to be V and Roy (with the rest of the order doing other things) against Xykon and how is V going to use this to overcome him? find his weaknesses and expliot them. Now when Xykon beat Dorukon he exploited his one strength, being able to cast the same spell over and over. But what is the main weakness of Sorcerer? Spell selection. I think V is going to pull a major batman, and have her and roy completely immune to Xykon's main attacks, stop anything he pulls out of his sleeve (like scrolls and the like) and uses various spells in obscure ways, or use obscure spells that he has no way of neutralizing. I dont know what those would all be but thats what i think will happen.

It will be the perfect retaliation to Xykons telling the wizards he kills their preparedness doesnt matter if they dont have enough power, if his power is neutralized by a Wizards preparedness.

the problem here is Xykons main tectic when he gets serious: energy drain.

this spell alone is reason enough not to take necromany as a barred school, even if you detest the undead (and now I'm gonna find out it's not necromancy, because my knoledge of high end spells sucks...) but as far as I'm aware, there's very little you can do to counter this, and if Xykon can use a maximised energy drain, why not a quickened one (IIRC, he's used a quickened spell before). He also has the power to wipe out any form of defense through Superb Dispelling, so unless by then V has klearnt Epic Counterspell, it might not help.

I see V more taking out Tsukio or redcloak, for both tactical reason and for drama. the leason would be particularly effective against Tsukio (who has yet to get past the whole I have lotz of spells!!! stage) - leave Xykon to Roy, it's his stage

[Shhalahr Windrider]

this spell alone is reason enough not to take necromany as a barred school, even if you detest the undead (and now I'm gonna find out it's not necromancy, because my knoledge of high end spells sucks...) but as far as I'm aware, there's very little you can do to counter this…
No, there is one very simple 4th level core spell: death ward (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/deathWard.htm).

And Durkon is working on a Mass version for the entire Order (4th and 5th panel). (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0672.html) See also #750 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0750.html) for some idea of the progress Durkon is making.

So with that in their arsenal, energy drain is not gonna do much. Well… at least until Xykon invests a few actions on dispel magic, anyway. :smallamused:

[Clertar]

I expect that one day V will use an area effect spell on himself, after purchasing / crafting an item that makes him immune to the effect :)

[BlackestOfMages]

No, there is one very simple 4th level core spell: death ward (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/deathWard.htm).

And Durkon is working on a Mass version for the entire Order (4th and 5th panel). (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0672.html) See also #750 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0750.html) for some idea of the progress Durkon is making.

So with that in their arsenal, energy drain is not gonna do much. Well… at least until Xykon invests a few actions on dispel magic, anyway. :smallamused:

:elan:oh, that'd explain why he's researching death ward...

well, I think the highest level caster I've ever played is like 4, so spells just go right over my head. other than cure something. I'm very familiar with that one:smalleek:

and I expect cletar is right on the AoE (and for those who have read on the orogins of PC's should be able to guess which one)

[Querzis]

No, there is one very simple 4th level core spell: death ward (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/deathWard.htm).

And Durkon is working on a Mass version for the entire Order (4th and 5th panel). (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0672.html) See also #750 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0750.html) for some idea of the progress Durkon is making.

So with that in their arsenal, energy drain is not gonna do much. Well… at least until Xykon invests a few actions on dispel magic, anyway. :smallamused:

Considering the fact that we know Xykon knows a nice little spell called superb dispelling, thats only gonna buy them one round really. Beside, he has no real reason to use energy drain on people of their level. Energy drain is his best spell in a duel against someone around his level but against a bunch of level 15 adventurers, meteor swarm would be a lot more useful.

[Shhalahr Windrider]

Considering the fact that we know Xykon knows a nice little spell called superb dispelling, thats only gonna buy them one round really.
If he commits himself to the energy drain tactic, it should be at least two. First, Xykon has to find out that they are affected mass death ward. Which probably means a round with a failed energy drain.

Second, [ur=http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/spells/superbDispelling.htm]superb dispelling[/url] still behaves as greater dispel magic, which means that if he uses it in area mode, it only will dispel one spell (maxiumum) on each affected character. If they are buffed with more than just mass death ward, some of them could get through the dispel with that spell still intact.

The alternative is to spend six individual actions with a targeted dispel against each Order member. If using superb dispelling, he would also take a total of 60d6 backlash damage. If using greater dispel magic, there would still be a 20-30% chance of failure on any individual dispel check.


Beside, he has no real reason to use energy drain on people of their level. Energy drain is his best spell in a duel against someone around his level but against a bunch of level 15 adventurers, meteor swarm would be a lot more useful.
Indeed.

[Metahuman1]

Here's how I'd like to see them do the final fight.

Go in with a couple of mass deathward's on everyone and as many energy Immunity spells as possible on everyone. Bring as many Allies as possible with them. Have Hayley, Belkar, and Elan jump on Tsukio, keep her form getting any spells off, and Have Durkon mix it up with Red Cloak. Figure he'll hold Red Cloak off while the rest mop up Tsukio fairly quickly and then they all jump on Red Cloak and make semi short work of him before they all finally jump on Xykon.

Those Allies? They come in too keep the assorted minions off the main party while there doing all this. No Zombies or Hobgoblins messing it up.

Now for the big bad. Honestly, I don't know if you could even do this, but I'd think go in with wands of Superb Dispelling for V and have him use those plus Boots of flying too keep Xykon form being able too cast anything he hadn't already made the party Immune too, and let Roy do what fighters do best. Hit it with a big sharp piece of metal over and over for as much damage as possible. Keep it up till there ALL doing that too him, and he can't last that long. (Yeah he got d12 hit dice, but no Con boost, just a flat boost. So he can't have THAT much Hp comparatively speaking, and taking at least one attack that hits and goes through DR (I figure they'll make sure to set that up before going in as well.) form each of them (Maybe 2 form Roy and Belkar, maybe form Durkon if he's using Divine power and form Hayley if she's got either improved Rapid shot or Improved Many shot by then. Three if any of the above are also hasted.), and him not being able to do anything that has a noticeable effect on them, and he's going down.

And all V did was buff his/her allies and then Keep the bad guy jammed.

[NENAD]

Where does the Monster in the Darkness fit into all that?

[Shhalahr Windrider]

Honestly, I don't know if you could even do this, but I'd think go in with wands of Superb Dispelling for V…
Superb dispelling is an epic spell, and you cannot put epic spells into wands. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/spellsIntro.htm#metamagicItemsandEpicSpells) And Xykon’s caster level is high enough to be almost immune to greater dispel magic. So dispelling Xykon’s handiwork will prove problematic.

[MesiDoomstalker]

I personally want to see the Order hitting Epic levels to even the odds a bit. But thats just me and I know there are several limiting factors in this.