Help me make a gish!

[Smeggedoff]

Please?
I'm looking at making another new character, and have decided to base it off this picture.
http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y32/Smeggedoff/alice_and_her_hobby_horse_by_sachsen-d3c7d33.png (http://sachsen.deviantart.com/art/Alice-and-her-Hobby-Horse-201897471?q=favby%3Abffg%2F2519743&qo=118)
Basics first
Setting: Planescape
Level: 14
Wackiness level: Moderate
Optimisation: Mid level

I'm looking at using some stuff I've not had a go at yet, so I'm thinking aq build including dungeoncrusher, Titan bloodline and abjurant champion. If these things gel properly of course.

Now I'm a gish newb so if possible I'd like advice on, but not limited to: -
Build
Items
Spell Choice
General Playstyle

Thanks in advance Playground.

[Otherworld Odd]

I don't have any advice on class or anything but look up to earthbreaker hammer from the Curse of the Crimson Throne adventure path. The player's guide is available for free and it's really quite a good hammer. It could be re-flavored and redesigned to look like a chess piece's Knight as in the picture.


Edit: http://paizo.com/store/byCompany/p/paizoPublishingLLC/pathfinder/adventurePath/curseOfTheCrimsonThrone/v5748btpy8bdb

Link to download the Player's Guide from paizo for free.

[under_score]

I can't say I have a lot of experience with gish builds, but a player in my current game is playing a swiftblade (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/prc/20070327). This PrC, which was going to be in Complete Mage but didn't make it in time (IIRC), is pretty stupidly good. He started out with Beguiler, which isn't bad but could probably be a better choice. And he uses Arcane Strike (PHB2, I believe) to great success. The last few encounters, he was at ECL 19 (rockin' a +2 LA template) and able to toss out 400+ damage without too much difficulty.

Key features you should note:

Blurred Alacrity and Evasive Celerity grant him 50% miss chance, including target spells.

Arcane Reflexes grants a (potentially) big boost to Initiative.

He is able to caste haste as a free (or swift by my rulings) action each round, and this is what grants him all the relevant bonuses.

Perpetual Options gets him an extra standard action each round while hasted.

So, this player of mine routinely goes first, casts haste as a swift action, moves up to whatever opponent is worst as a bonus standard action, drops arcane strike on both of his weapons (technically free actions, though in future games I would definitely rule these are also swift actions), full attacks with two weapon fighting. He hits with almost all of his attacks and then does 300-500 damage without breaking a sweat. He has now killed whatever was worst on the field and oftentimes effectively ended combat before anyone else, good or bad, could do anything.

Edit: Arcane Strike is in Complete Warrior, not PHB2...I lack accurate memory.

[Greenish]

Or one could refluff Greater Mighty Wallop. Usual sorcadin might work.

Fitting Dungeoncrasher and Titan Bloodline into level 14 Gish build might be tricky.

[Thrice Dead Cat]

Actually, Dungeoncrasher looks fairly legit at emulating that picture. I feel as though there is something similar to that alternate class feature somewhere else in DND, but I can't for the life of me figure out where.

That said, probably the easiest thing to do would be to go either Half-giant or Goliath with LA-buy-off (or, worst case scenario, just have Enlarge Person up permanently on a human), going Fighter 2 (for dungeoncrasher)/Wizard 3/Eldritch Knight X/Abjurant Champion 5/EK 10-X. Grab Dungeoncrasher, Knockback (from Races of Stone), and either Sanctum Spell or something else to qualify for EK with only 3 levels of wizard, then, basically follow the standard gish buff lists provided by the handbooks.

[Greenish]

Fighter 2 (for dungeoncrasher)/Wizard 3/Eldritch Knight X/Abjurant Champion 5/EK 10-X. Grab Dungeoncrasher, Knockback (from Races of Stone), and either Sanctum Spell or something else to qualify for EK with only 3 levels of wizardYou could grab the traditional Spellsword level after wiz3 to get to Abjurant Champion.

[Jallorn]

This (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=7081777) will be useful for being able to wield a giant hammer, cuz that's what it looks like to me. There's also Monkey Grip to be able to use a weapon one size category larger than normal for a -2 to attack.

Also, I found the other thing I was looking for: Tiny Von BigMcLargeHuge (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=6428.0)

[Smeggedoff]

Otherworld Odd: The is a pretty nice hammer for a martial weapon, I'll have to ask my GM with it being pathfinder though.

Under_Score: Yeah I've seen swiftblade, I'll take another look at it after I have a prelim build, see if I can get the feats anywhere but I'm already worried about trying to fit too much stuff in.

Greenish: Ooh, nice spell. Yeah, I don't need them per se, but Titan bloodline's one of those things I like (and iirc maybe boosts the technical level of abjurant champion, meaning I get more out of abjuration spells? dunno). Dungeoncrasher's one of those things I hear is great for fighters and seems to fit going around with a big hammer.

Thrice Dead Cat: Most of my DM's seem to frown on LA buyoff, but like I said it's not a very heavy optimisation game so I could probably afford to take the hit (other characters are a scout based archer, a tibbit dragonfire adept, a swashbuckler, a wilder/blackguard/thrallherd and a vampire-spawn dirgesinger)
I'm assuming that would be in place of titan bloodline though, since the hammer is a set size and doesn't go off what size you actually are.
Thanks for the build advice though, it should provide a mighty fine starting point.

Greenish (again): Yeah, I guess a level in spellsword couldn't hurt, especially since mage armor isn't an abjuration (anyone have a list of armour/shield spells that ARE abjuration?)

Jallorn: Thanks for the links, I was just mentioning that everysize build to someone yesterday actually.

[Keld Denar]

You could do something fun with a base like

Barbarian1/Fighter2/Duskblade2/Warblade1/Suel4/AbjurantChampion5/Spellsword1/DragonDisciple4

Fighter2 gets you Dungeoncrasher I, for smackin folks around. Suel gets you a few options, including Greater Mighty Wallop for making your really big hammer. AbjChamp and Spellsword are pretty standard gishy stuff, and Dragon Disciple actually works well here by giving you bonus 5th level Suel slots and some really nice stat adjustments. If you do it on a Goliath (LA bought off) chassis, you can even take Knockback. The weapon looks like its Bludgeoning with the ridges on the back for Slashing. A good weapon to emulate this is the Executioner's Mace (Dungeon 135). Its a 2d6 base weapon that does your choice of P/B or S/B, chosen when it's crafted. A slashing one would allow you to use the weapon with Whirling Blade. Whirling Blade + Power Attack + Knockback + Dungeoncrasher means you can fling people across the room...from across the room. Its all kinds of silly and FUN!

[TroubleBrewing]

A slashing one would allow you to use the weapon with Whirling Blade. Whirling Blade + Power Attack + Knockback + Dungeoncrasher means you can fling people across the room...from across the room. Its all kinds of silly and FUN!

You're a monster, and I love you. I'm so using this in a game at some point.

[Smeggedoff]

You could do something fun with a base like

Barbarian1/Fighter2/Duskblade2/Warblade1/Suel4/AbjurantChampion5/Spellsword1/DragonDisciple4

Fighter2 gets you Dungeoncrasher I, for smackin folks around. Suel gets you a few options, including Greater Mighty Wallop for making your really big hammer. AbjChamp and Spellsword are pretty standard gishy stuff, and Dragon Disciple actually works well here by giving you bonus 5th level Suel slots and some really nice stat adjustments. If you do it on a Goliath (LA bought off) chassis, you can even take Knockback. The weapon looks like its Bludgeoning with the ridges on the back for Slashing. A good weapon to emulate this is the Executioner's Mace (Dungeon 135). Its a 2d6 base weapon that does your choice of P/B or S/B, chosen when it's crafted. A slashing one would allow you to use the weapon with Whirling Blade. Whirling Blade + Power Attack + Knockback + Dungeoncrasher means you can fling people across the room...from across the room. Its all kinds of silly and FUN!

:smalleek:

That, uh, excuse me, I need to go shake my DM by the collar until he allows LA buyoff

[Smeggedoff]

Jotunbrud wouldn't allow me to take knockback would it? I seem to remember it falls quite short of the actual powerful build ability.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

For Abjuration spells that add an armor or shield bonus, you're pretty much limited to Shield in the PHB, and Luminous Armor and Greater Luminous Armor in BoED. Those Bloodline levels would indeed make you count as +3 Abjurant Champion levels higher, for an extra +3 AC bonus from each of those. It will seriously hurt both spellcasting and BAB, and you could just wear Strongarm Bracers in MIC to use an unusually large weapon without penalty. If you want to use Dungeoncrasher, learn the spell Melf's Unicorn Arrow in PH2, making it appear above opponents to bull rush them into the ground.

I'd go Human, Fighter 2/ Wizard 4/ Spellsword 1/ Abjurant Champion 5/ Knight Phantom (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20050706a&page=4) or Eldritch Knight 2+. You'll need to be exalted to get (Greater) Luminous Armor, and you should have a Rod of Bodily Restoration (MIC) to fix the Str-damage sacrifice it takes to cast that. I'd specialize in either Conjuration or Transmutation, and lose Enchantment and either Necromancy or Evocation. There's not much drawback to not specializing, especially if you want to get spells from every school. If you go with a Conjurer or Transmuter, use the Immediate Magic ACF in PH2. In any case you should use the Martial Wizard (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#wizard) variant in PH2 to get another Fighter bonus feat in place of Scribe Scroll.

Your weapon should be a Greathorn Minotaur Greathammer (MMIV) with the Brutal Surge property (MIC). The Greathorn Greathammer deals 3d6 damage large size, and has a 19-20/x4 crit, along with granting a +2 to standard sunder attempts. Their hammers are described as being unusually heavy at the head, thus making them capable of brutal strikes though requiring an exotic weapon proficiency to properly wield. I think it would fit the picture perfectly, just wear Strongarm Bracers and you'll be fine.

Your feats should be Power Attack (W1), Practiced Spellcaster (1), Combat Casting (H), Exotic Weapon Proficiency: Greathorn Minotaur Greathammer (F1), Knowledge Devotion (3), Leap Attack (6), Arcane Strike (9), Minor Shapeshift (12), Quicken Spell (15), Defensive Sweep (18). If you plan on using Knight Phantom instead of Eldritch Knight you'll need to replace Knowledge Devotion with Still Spell. If you get Eldritch Knight I'd suggest either Combat Reflexes or Improved Toughness as the bonus feat.

Equipment (150k at level 14)
+1 Brutal Surge, Impact, Greathorn Minotaur Greathammer, large (18,350 gp)
Circlet of Rapid Casting with +6 Intelligence (51,000 gp)
Strongarm Bracers (6,000 gp)
Rod of Bodily Restoration (3,100 gp)
Healing Belt (750 gp)
Lesser Metamagic Rod of Extend x4 (12,000 gp)
Ring of Sustenance with +2 Deflection bonus to AC (10,500 gp)
Necklace of Adaptation with +2 Enhancement bonus to natural armor (17,000 gp)
Sandals of the Light Step (9,000 gp)
22,300 gp remaining to spend on whatever else you think you'll need. Don't forget a spell component pouch and costly components/foci!
You should also have See Invisibility+Permanency cast, and probably also Darkvision+Permanency.

You should cast Greater Luminous Armor, (Rod of Extended) Greater Magic Weapon, (Rod of Extended) Greater Mighty Wallop, (Rod of Extended) Phantom Steed, and either Superior Resistance (6th) or Greater Resistance (4th) every day. You should keep either Polymorph or Trollshape prepared at all times even though you won't be casting it, in order to use your Minor Shapeshift reserve feat to get temporary HP every round.

Your prepared spells should include Shield, Bull's Strength, Melf's Unicorn Arrow, and Greater Mirror Image. You should use a Lesser Rod of Extend to cast Bull's Strength, and possibly set up a Contingency to cast a (Rod of) Extended Bull's Strength that you can trigger with a thought. You should also keep some crowd control and utility spells prepared, including Web, Glitterdust, Solid Fog, and Evard's Black Tentacles.

In combat there are a few different sets of actions you can take, depending on the situation:

Cast Shield (1st round) or another abjuration spell (likely Dispel Magic) (swift action) or use Minor Shapeshift to get temporary HP (swift action) or use the Circlet of Rapid Casting to cast Glitterdust or Web (swift) or cast Greater Mirror Image or use Immediate Magic if a specialist (immediate action, uses up your next turn's swift action)
and
Cast a higher level area crowd control like Solid Fog or Black Tentacles (standard) or buff with Haste or (Extended) Bull's Strength (standard) or cast Melf's Unicorn Arrow on distant foes using ranged attacks (standard) and move in to full attack next round (move)
or
Activate Arcane Strike and use Power Attack with a full attack (full round) or charge and leap attack with power attack (full round)
and
Activate Brutal Surge to bull rush someone into a solid obstacle (swift) or take one of the above swift/immediate actions

I intentionally didn't include Wraithstrike given your party's composition and level of optimization. When you Power Attack you should probably do so for -2 to -6 to hit, depending on how likely you think you'll be to hit. A good Leap Attack charge with Dungeoncrasher damage from Brutal Surge can be pretty brutal even without Wraithstrike.

[Wings of Peace]

Wizard 4/Spelldancer 2 (This is FR specific, if your DM doesn't allow it the build can use Anima Mage)/Jade Phoenix Mage 2/Abjurant Champion 5/X 2

That build should meet almost all of your needs. Pick a weapon you like (like a massive hammer), persist all of your buffs via Spelldancer, Ironheart Surge away the con damage, profit!

And for any remaining problems you have the rest of your wizard spells as fall back should you choose to use them.

[Doc Roc]

Gentlemen. Prepare for GLORY. To my knowledge, there currently exists no Persist Factotum builds. Are. YOU. READY?!

Human, 2 flaws
Factotum 8/Spell Dancer 2/Swiftblade 10

OR
Factotum 8/Spell Dancer 2/Ur-Priest 2/Mystic theurge 8

Not my best build, but possibly one of my coolest.

[Thurbane]

Fitting Dungeoncrasher and Titan Bloodline into level 14 Gish build might be tricky.
You could do it in a Suel Arcanamach build...

[Greenish]

The Greathorn Greathammer deals 3d6 damage large size, and has a 19-20/x4 critThat just begs for Dolorous Blow. Though Impact lessens it's usefulness a bit, but auto-confirm is still nice.

You could do it in a Suel Arcanamach build...True enough.

[Doc Roc]

I'm a fan of the boomerang gish, with boomerang daze (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20050408b&page=6) and huge damage boosts.

[Smeggedoff]

Awright. Thanks for all the input so far. I think Ima go with Keld Denar's Bouncer style build. None of it's particularly objectionable and the bits that my DM might not go for can be replaced (I'm waiting to hear back about LA buyoff, modifying Jotunbrud to give powerfull build and whether or not book of 9 swords is allowed)

Biffoniacus_Furiou: Wow, thanks for the massive post of input. It looks very impressive and will be a big help to me anyway even if I'm not using the proposed build.

Doc Roc: Eeeh I'm a bit reluctant to mess with Factotum. On of my friends hates it (actually the term he used) since he's seen it bog down games before with the inspiration stuff. And Ur priest is right out, it's never rubbed me the right way. Sorry, but thanks anyway.

edit: Oh, is it worth taking knowledge devotion? From a cursory google search it looks like most of the tricks for boosting it are out of my reach apart from collector of stories.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

edit: Oh, is it worth taking knowledge devotion? From a cursory google search it looks like most of the tricks for boosting it are out of my reach apart from collector of stories.

Put at least one rank in every Knowledge skill that covers a creature type (Arcana, Dungeoneering, Local, Nature, Religion, Planes) and Knowledge Devotion will give you at least a +1 to attack and damage rolls against every creature you encounter. Not a huge difference, but a decent choice if you get all knowledge skills as class skills at some point.

[Smeggedoff]

Cool, thanks. Duskblade has all knowledge skills so I'm set there.

Edi: Argh, I say I'm set. Working forwards from level 1 sorting out all class/cross class skills and the varying number of ranks is sort of frustrating.

[marcielle]

Complete champions devotions are pretty useful buffs at low levels, and some actuall scale with your level so they get better, or at least hold their own as you advance in level. Dificult terrain or fast enemies? Can't get a full attack in? Get travel devotion and position yourself practically anywhere. Good for both battlefield control and for getting in and out quickly. Law devotion gives you a to hit or AC bonus thats insane at lower levels and still pretty good at mid (which I hear most campaigns never progress pass). The only prereqs are RP so you should be able to work things out with a litle chat with your DM.
Complete psionic ardents can be total beasts for gish dipping in cos you can cherry pick nearly ANY psionic ability due to mantle flexibility(see web enhancements). Both expansion and a short tele hop in ONE level? Yes please. Want to full attack but to low on health to take one yourself? WHACK AND TELEHOP! Dungeoncrashers can whack someone into a wall for extra hurt but what if ther aren't any walls within reach? Telehop 10 feet UP(just enough for a charge lol) and become a SKYCRASHER. Also, don't bother taking wild talent(just see question 2a at (http://forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?whichpage=0.6&TOPIC_ID=15184񔖧) . Though it should be noted, unless you have a high wis or can get your DM to allow you an item that increases your PP per day, you'll need at least 3-4 levels of ardent to have enough power points to be of any use.
Finally look here:http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=82038
Some fine dungeoncrashing tips and combos. This will give you the concentrate the hell outa 1-2 targets version of Keld's epicfling. Also, a military formation and this equals dominoes.
Hope this helps.:smallbiggrin:

[Smeggedoff]

While I'm not so sure about dipping psonic, that shock trooper + Improved Trip + Knockback combo is awesome. Monster golf anyone?
The only way I can make room is by dropping Knowledge devotion and Versatile Spellcaster though. And at least one of my DM's has a problem with shock-trooper... hmmm.

New question: Since I'm a melee fighter (strength dex and con is useful) and have levels in duskblade (int caster) and suel arcanamach (cha caster) is it worth taking a belt of magnificence? I can only afford +2 at this stage.

My stats thus far are Str 18 (rolled) Dex 14 (rolled) Con 14 (13 +1) Int 12 (11+1) Wis 9 (rolled) Cha 12 (11+1)

To squeeze level 3 spells out of suel I need 16 charisma for the bonus spell too, so I guess I need a +4 cha item on top of that :-/

[Smeggedoff]

Barring a little sanding down (and a yes or no from the DM) Here's the mostly finished sheet for those people interested.

http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheetview.php?sheetid=295161

Advice is still welcome at this point ofc.

Edit: I should prolly point out here that the sheet's written up optimisticly hoping for a Jotunbrud house rule into powerful build. Everything'll probably get bumped down a level to make room for goliath otherwise.

[Darrin]

Gentlemen. Prepare for GLORY. To my knowledge, there currently exists no Persist Factotum builds. Are. YOU. READY?!

Human, 2 flaws
Factotum 8/Spell Dancer 2/Swiftblade 10

OR
Factotum 8/Spell Dancer 2/Ur-Priest 2/Mystic theurge 8


Could you elaborate on this? I'm not seeing where a spelldancer can apply metamagic to an SLA. If that were possible... couldn't a Factotum/Incantatrix just persist an existing SLA effect?

Nevermind. I found the relevant text in the Arcane Dilettante description. Would this work with Incantatrix applying Persist to existing SLA effects?

[Tr011]

My first impression of the pic: Monkey Grip. She definitely uses Monkey Grip.
But Monkey Grip isn't really strong (but very cool and has some minor utilities).

I would (just by the picture) would make her a Martial character. Since it's a manga-pic, she could scream out her attack-moves in a fight xD
Because obv. for flavor Master of the Nine is the best Martial Class, I would either go this way or use a Crusader with 2 levels of multiclassing (one into cleric or arcane for enlarge person is a good choice imo).

Let me describe an example way to go Master of the Nine (w/o loosing to much Feats):
First level Monk (4+Int skill points first is not great but OK) with Cobra Strike ACF from UA (Dodge will be needed) also you get Improved Unarmed Strike. Didn't found any good ACF for Flurry, but maybe u need it someday.
Second level go Cleric (Darkness and Time Domain from SpC). You gain some Spells. Obscuring Mist and TrueStrike as Domain spells also have some uses.
Then follows Warblade 4 and Swordsage 1, so you end up level 7 with enough ranks in the key skills (they are: Sense Motive, Hide, Balance, Jump, Diplomacy, Concentration, Intimidate, Tumble) and 4 of the 5 Feats needed. Take Adaptive Style at lvl 3 (so you end up with all prerequisites).
After the 5 levels of Master of the Nine Disciples, you are level 12. Take anything you want (maybe a PC) at level 13 then another level of Warblade at level 14. You are now a Warblade with IL 12, having all the great class features of MotND and access to 8 disciples. That should be enough (you can also spend your lvl13 level in Crusader just for the style).

This should be great as a Mid-Optimized character and you still just spend one of your (with the bonus human) six feats.

/edit: with flaws you can do pretty much anything to swing that giant weapon out of the picture like hell.

[Keld Denar]

Couple things...I would adjust your level balance from Suel4/AbjChamp4 to Suel3/AbjChamp5, or even Suel2/AbjChamp5/Spellsword1. That last level of AbjChamp is crutial. It sets your CL equal to your BAB. Since your BAB is equal to your character level -1 (due to the lost BAB from Suel1), this is amazing. The coolest thing is that on top of that, you add Tenacious Spells for another boost in CL to resist dispels. So, effectively, the CL of your spells to resist dispels is your character level +5.

You can't take G Luminous Armor. Sanctified Spells must be prepared. Suel Arcanamach is a spontaneous caster, which means you need Arcane Preperation to use it. I'd grab Greater Mirror Image instead if you don't want to spend the feat.

You don't have Versatile Spellcaster. Granted, it would be more effective at lower levels, but its still good for you. It allows you to burn off some of those crappy Duskblade spells for awesome Wraithstrikes or Whirling Blades. Seriously, you have a TON of great 2nd level spells, VS gives you more. You have Wraithstrike and Emerald Razor, I don't think you really need Shocktrooper that much.

For your 5th level spell, there are some really good options that I think are better. Greater Blinking is ZOMGASMIC, and Lightning Leap is amazingly fun. Funny story, Lightning Leap is one of the only non-Conjouration spells in the [Teleport] subschool. I think there's like, 2 others in the whole game.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Your Shield spell does not last all day, it's only 1 minute/level.

You don't have enough feats. Combat Casting is free via Duskblade. Iron Will should be gained via the Otyugh Hole for 3,000 gp so it doesn't cost a feat. You have one feat for being Human, one Fighter bonus feat, and five from levels. I'd drop Shock Trooper and pick up Versatile Spellcaster and Arcane Preparation. Note that exalted spells like (Greater) Luminous Armor are automatically available to anyone who prepares and casts spells, so you won't even need to spend any spells known on them.

[Tokuhara]

Hmmm...

I suggest:

Race: Silverbrow Human (no, really)
Class: Stalwart Sorcerer 4/Swordsage 2/Jade Phoenix Mage 9/Abjurant Champion 5

Feats: As required for PrC and for whatever (too early to type up feats :smallfrown:)

This way, you wield a Bighorn Minotaur Greathammer, have it be Colliding and maybe an energy based on what you run into daily, (I suggest Sonic/Force damage. Maybe Thundering/Psychokinetic Burst and when you get the burst effect, the Horse's head erupts a mighty roar?) and refluff the appearance to being like this weapon. Remember, just because it's a big fricken' hammer doesn't mean it has to look like a big fricken' hammer. It could look like Juggernaut from SC4, or like a holy symbol of your deity, or in your case, a chess piece.

[Smeggedoff]

Keld Denar: Ok, I will adjus the build and the spell choices when I get home and can access my books

Biffoniacus_Furiou: Doh! I kept poking myself to check that, good thing you pointed it out.
Yep, I noticed the combat casting thing, it's only listed with the feats since I prefer to put bonus feats there instead of with other class abilities. Thanks for the iron will tip though, I'll see if I can scrape up another 3k gold.
So, dropping shock trooper and freening up a space from iron will for Versatile spellcaster and Arcane preparation.
Good tip about the exalted spells being auto-known too.

Tokuhara: Thanks for the input, I think I'm going with Keld's build though. I'm not even sure if that 1 level of warblade will be allowed so slightly toom uch tome of battle in yours too. Looks good though.
May I ask why Silverbrow human though? I can't check due to my lack of books but google tells me they get bonuses on disguise and a few free feather-fall spells per day in exchange for skill points.

[Tokuhara]

Tokuhara: Thanks for the input, I think I'm going with Keld's build though. I'm not even sure if that 1 level of warblade will be allowed so slightly toom uch tome of battle in yours too. Looks good though.
May I ask why Silverbrow human though? I can't check due to my lack of books but google tells me they get bonuses on disguise and a few free feather-fall spells per day in exchange for skill points.

My reason was since you would be taking sorcerer levels, you could take some of those semi-good dragonblooded feats, plus use some dragon-themed spells with more flair.

[Doc Roc]

My reason was since you would be taking sorcerer levels, you could take some of those semi-good dragonblooded feats, plus use some dragon-themed spells with more flair.

Actually some of them are out and out great.

[Tokuhara]

Actually some of them are out and out great.

too true. I just said semi-good since some are crap and some are gold. So overall, the dragontouched races are all-in-all okay. And yes, I include Forestlord Elves, those dragon hippies...

[Smeggedoff]

Ah, ok. That makes sense then. I always forget about things like that.

[Doc Roc]

Ah, ok. That makes sense then. I always forget about things like that.

It's what we're here for! I'm a little less sold on Keld's build in some senses, but I figure you know best. :)

[Smeggedoff]

It's what we're here for! I'm a little less sold on Keld's build in some senses, but I figure you know best. :)

O.O

Why on earth would you think that? ;P

I like Keld's build because it sounds fun, what with the knockback and the whirling blade and the smacking people around all over the shop. Plus it's mostly straightforward stuff from the complete and core books that my DM wouldn't really object to.

On that note, using jotunbrud to qualify for Knockback seems to have been nixed, so it looks like I'm going for Goliath(and shelling out for a hat of disguise). Sadly LA Buyoff has also been denied so I'll need to shuffle the levels around (and redo my skills T.T). Still waiting to hear back about warblade though.

[Keld Denar]

Funny story...Goliath might not be worth it anymore, but you can still have some fun. If Warblade gets nixed, swap it for a level of Barbarian. Not just ANY Barbarian, though, pick up Wolf Totem Barbarian. This gets you Improved Trip for free, and then swap Knockback for Knockdown. Now, when you cast Whirling Blade at people (counted in all respects as a MELEE attack), if you deal more than 10 points of damage with the attack, you get to initiate a free trip attempt. From up to 60' away. Epix.

Another option, and my personal favorite Suel Arcanamach build, is:

NaenHoon Illumian Paladin4/Duskblade2/Suel4/AbjChamp5/Spellsword1/DragonDisc4

Pal4 gives Turn Undead. Illumian gives power sigils which do fun things. NaenHoon is a form of Divine Metamagic, but unlikes DMM, isn't restricted to Divine spells. That means you can Persist your Suel spells by burning 6 TU attempts each, up to 2/day. Persist Greater Blinking and Wraithstrike. Every attack you make is against flat footed touch AC (which is pretty much 10+deflection for most people). Walls? You walk through them due to your etherealness. Foes? You scythe through them with your phantom blade/mace/thing. Most people have issues hitting your 50% miss chance, and even foes with True Seeing have 20%. Thats pretty darned effective.

Sure, it doesn't pack the punch that 9th level spells have, but its simple, effective, functions decently well even without access to the magic, and I think its darned elegant. Then again, I'm probably biased toward Suel Arcanamach because I think its neat...

[Doc Roc]

I really like divine persist gish into hexer for ironguard and such....

[Keld Denar]

I never really liked the term "divine gish". Divine classes are pretty much already part caster part melee by definition. Plus, the term "gish" is eytemologically arcane in nature, derived from the term for gith-yanki fighter/magic users of old.

Plus, isn't Hexer a 3.0 class? I know they are legal if they don't have a conversion or whatever, but they always make me feel unclean in an unsettling way.

[Smeggedoff]

Funny story...Goliath might not be worth it anymore, but you can still have some fun. If Warblade gets nixed, swap it for a level of Barbarian. Not just ANY Barbarian, though, pick up Wolf Totem Barbarian. This gets you Improved Trip for free, and then swap Knockback for Knockdown. Now, when you cast Whirling Blade at people (counted in all respects as a MELEE attack), if you deal more than 10 points of damage with the attack, you get to initiate a free trip attempt. From up to 60' away. Epix.


Ok, I'm assuming you're saying goliath's not worth the +1 there, Ok cool. I was considering half Giant instead but I guess that'd be the same.

So, assuming I Head for Knock-Down (by either taking improved trip if warblade is allowed or getting it free for wolf totem barbarian) I'm assuming I'd be dropping Improved Bull-rush too since the build's effectively converted to trip. Same for Dungeon-Crasher really. Would it be worth taking Jotunbrud anyway for the +4 that'd give me to trip?

Dang, I was really hoping my DM'd go for the Jotunbrud=Powerful Build thing. Pegging people around like golf balls is a lot more appealing than making them sit down.

[Thurbane]

If they haven't already been mentioned, Strongarm Bracers (MIC) can achieve a lot of what Powerful build can, in regards to wielding larger weapons.

If you decide Goliath is worth the LA +1, Alter Self becomes really sweet - some Monstrous Humanoid forms are just great (Gargoyle, Blackscale Lizardfolk, Centaur, Sahuagin etc.).

[Keld Denar]

Strongarm Bracers don't qualify you for Knockback though, which requires that you are either large, or have Powerful Build.

Knockback + DungeoncrasherI is the lynchpin of the build. Without it, its just not as interesting, IMO.

I'd go with Illumian on the Paladin base, pick up Extend Spell and Persist Spell, and walk around with Persisted Greater Blinking for the fun of it.

[Smeggedoff]

Woo! As an update to this, my DM has ruled Jotunbruf to give powerful build, allowed the use of Warblade, banned Luminous Armour (but houseruled Mage armour as abjuration) aaaand said I start with WBL of a 13th level character (not going to go into that, but theres a reason for it :-/ )

[Keld Denar]

Woot! Gratz. Do you have any questions on the build as it stands?

Human + Jotunbrud is actually rather favorable. You can learn Enlarge Person as a Suel Arcanamach spell, and unlike Goliath, humans are legal targets for Enlarge Person.

Hope you have some real fun with Knockback! Its a blast.

[Smeggedoff]

I think I'm fairly set on how it works. I'm still undecided on Greater Blink vs Lightning Leap but I can't actually cast my 5th level spell due to not having a 5th level bonus spell but *shrug*
I could use a feat choice to replace Iron will if I'm using the otyugh hole, I don't need prepared caster sine Luminous Armour's gone. Unless there are other good Exalted spells.

[Keld Denar]

Greater Blink is better if you are Illumian and can persist it, otherwise I'd go with Lightning Leap for the situational teleport which has TONS of utility.

What feats do you have again? Do you have Versatile Spellcaster? Minor Shapeshift? Power Attack/Imp Bull Rush/Knockback?

My favorite generic filler feats are generally Quick Recovery (Lords of Madness), Improved Initiative, and Improved Toughness.

[Doc Roc]

I think I'm fairly set on how it works. I'm still undecided on Greater Blink vs Lightning Leap but I can't actually cast my 5th level spell due to not having a 5th level bonus spell but *shrug*
I could use a feat choice to replace Iron will if I'm using the otyugh hole, I don't need prepared caster sine Luminous Armour's gone. Unless there are other good Exalted spells.

Lightning Leap is phenomenal, and works inside dimension-lock and similar.


I'm with Keld, can we see a list of your feats?

[Keld Denar]

The only drawback to Lightning Leap is that it requires Line of Effect, which means you can't use it to escape from a Forcecage, the primary reason to have short range teleports at high level.

[Smeggedoff]

Feats are
Otyugh Hole - Iron Will
1st level - Power attack and Jotunbrud
2nd Level - (fighter) Improved Bullrush
3rd Level - [Free Feat] and (fighter) Dungeon Crasher
5th Level - (Duskblade) Combat Casting
6th Level - Knowledge Devotion
9th Level - Knockback
12th Level - Versatile Spellcaster
15th Level - [Free feat]
18th Level - [Free Feat]

(The free Feat at 3rd level was originally at 6th level, but I swapped that and knowledge devotion because I was unsure about being able to get 5 in a knowlege skill by level 3)

I guess Minor shapeshift works, also fills up an 4th level spell I hadn't chosen too, even if I don't plan to slow the game down by casting polymorph a lot. (it's a stigma with my gaming group so I don't intend to abuse polymorh cheese, but 14 temp hp as a swift action, or +5 feet movement or the like is quite tasty)

[Draz74]

Gotta say, my first thought for that picture would have been a Psionic Gish. Possibly a straight PsyWar with Strongarm Bracers or something.

Second thought, a Drunken Master who actually uses a chess piece as an improvised weapon.

But the Suel Arcanamach build is cool too.

In any case, there's a very important question that needs to be answered here: do any books officially contain a skill for chess playing? (Profession (strategy gamer) or something?)

[Keld Denar]

If you switch up the levels a slight bit, you can take Duskblade at 2 or 3 and get the skill ranks you need for Suel Arcanamach out of the way and qualify for Knowledge Devotion then.

Also, if you don't want to soil your hands with Polymorph to power Minor Shapeshift, try using Trollshape. Its the same level, a brazillian times less cheezy, and with it's swift action cast time, in a pinch is actually kinda fun to play around with.

Also, have you considered Obtain Familiar? You'll have 18/20 BAB and decent HP. Having a familiar (which you can Trollshape for grins and giggles) is amusing. Otherwise, you seriously can't go wrong with Quick Recovery at high levels. This feat is simply amazing for the reason that it gets you out of Blasphemy. Its like, one of only 3-4 abilities that can counter Blasphemy, period. Blasphemy = death, for the most part, as 1d4 rounds of Daze at high levels is game over.

[Smeggedoff]

Right, So I have 3 free feats and have been suggested Minor Shapeshift, Obtain Familiar and Quick recovery. So it's really just working out when to take what.

Also, what book is Trollshape in?

[Eldariel]

Also, what book is Trollshape in?

PHBII. It has a slew of various Polymorph-type spells limited to one form.

[Keld Denar]

Well, the Executioner's Mace I suggested is 19-20 critical range. Improved Critical might be worthwhile if you can't think of anything else. Not as great as 18-20, but still not bad. Then again, as both a Slashing AND a Bludgeoning weapon, its legal for Keen Edge or Weapon of Impact, if you so desire.

Another option would be Improved Familiar to get youself something fun like a Winterwolf or an Imp. An Imp could UMD wands, assuming you put ranks in it crossclass. Give it a dagger with a wand chamber filled with a Wand of Whirling Blade and it'll be your flying invisible anti-Mirror Image machine.

[Smeggedoff]

Well, I think I'll take Minor Shapeshift for now, Obtain Familiar at 15 and Quick recovery at 18

I can't really fit in Improved Familiar since I only have the three feats.

Unless you're reccomending I go Obtain Familiar> Improved Familiar> Quick Recovery or somesuch

[Keld Denar]

Well, Blasphemy becomes a valid tactic from about level 9ish and up, especially if you fight a number of fiends. Blasphemy is available from the CR11 Hezeru on up, and any evil aligned cleric of level 13+.

[marcielle]

http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/DnD_Flaws
http://www.realmshelps.net/datafind/feats.shtml (and search flaws)

Some awesome flaws. Ranges from great RP options to for-the-lols retarded. Good if you absolutely NEED the extra feat.
First is homebrew but since ALL flaws need to be given the once over by DMs in the first place might as well go for it.

[balistafreak]

http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/DnD_Flaws
http://www.realmshelps.net/datafind/feats.shtml (and search flaws)

Some awesome flaws. Ranges from great RP options to for-the-lols retarded. Good if you absolutely NEED the extra feat.
First is homebrew but since ALL flaws need to be given the once over by DMs in the first place might as well go for it.

Fix'd that for you. :smalltongue:

There's not a single feat on there I'd call a great RP option that couldn't be done with mere RP. The mechanical penalties are either crippling or show-stealing, forcing your party to baby-sit you.

Seriously, a group that agrees to use flaws is a step away from agreeing to free feats anyways. You want flaws that'll affect your RP, write them into your character yourself.

[Doc Roc]

Fix'd that for you. :smalltongue:

There's not a single feat on there I'd call a great RP option that couldn't be done with mere RP. The mechanical penalties are either crippling or show-stealing, forcing your party to baby-sit you.

Seriously, a group that agrees to use flaws is a step away from agreeing to free feats anyways. You want flaws that'll affect your RP, write them into your character yourself.

Frankly, a lot of those are really quite offensive. Bipolar? Seriously guys?