Build Help: Gnome Warblade

[Tokuhara]

I'm not good with ToB, but I thought Gnome (or some subtype of it) and warblade was a match made in heaven. I mean +4 Con with d12 HD? +1 AC and sneaky-mode?

I'm starting at level 1, so I need him to be viable at dealing damage. Currently, we have:

1 Elf Wizard
1 Warforged Paladin
1 Half-Elf Assassin (Base class)
1 Underfolk Cleric of Pelor
1 Goliath Monk

We are using CR instead of LA, so Chaos Gnome is now Viable (CR1)

I kinda want to be "Mr. Damage"

[Dusk Eclipse]

I guess you could go for a Variation of the "I may be tiny; but you are already dead" build; but instead of using sneak attack and Blade Bravo just rely on Confound the Big Folk and maneuvers.

To be Honest; I feel Whisper Gnome (RoS/web) is the best sub-race for a melee gnome (the -2 Str hurts; but for a Dex based build, which warblades can do it is a beast). Though for a ToB using gnome I would probably go swordsage instead.

And try to use maneuvers that gives you bonus dice for damage, as they don't care for weapon size; I also think there is a decent Tiger claw maneuver which needs you to be smaller than your foe, so the small size is a boon there.

[Tokuhara]

I guess you could go for a Variation of the "I may be tiny; but you are already dead" build; but instead of using sneak attack and Blade Bravo just rely on Confound the Big Folk and maneuvers.

To be Honest; I fell Whisper Gnome (RoS/web) is the best sub-race for a melee gnome (the -2 Str hurts; but for a Dex based build, which warblades can do it is a beast). Though for a ToB using gnome I would probably go swordsage instead.

And try to use maneuvers that gives you bonus dice for damage, as they don't care for weapon size; I also think there is a decent Tiger claw maneuver which needs you to be smaller than your foe, so the small size is a boon there.

Whisper Gnome, Tiger Claw, and Confound the Big Folk you say? Sounds like a recipe for Bloodclaw Master to me...

[Dusk Eclipse]

If you are going Warblade I suggest you only dip Bloodclaw Master for two levels at most to keep your BAB up.

[erikun]

Whisper Gnome from Races of Stone is good, for the 30' movement alone but also for most of their other abilities. I think it is better than the Chaos Gnome, but I don't recall the stats on that one. There is also the Forest Gnome (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/gnome.htm#forestGnome) and the LA +0 Svirfneblin (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/sp/20040213a) for some other good options.

Have you considered going the Song of the White Raven route? It is a feat that allows you to multiclass Bard/Warblade and keep your buffing songs up while fighting. You'll probably want to stick with Warblade early for the damage output, but it's something to consider in the future.

Beyond that, I'm not too familiar with Tome of Battle. I believe the Shadow Hand school has a number of stealth maneuvers, and may have access to bonus damage dice as well. Diamond Mind gets maneuvers that can replace a Concentration check with attack rolls and saving throws, which would be quite useful at ensuring a critical save.

[under_score]

I also think there is a decent Tiger claw maneuver which needs you to be smaller than your foe, so the small size is a boon there.

You might be thinking of the Giant Killing Stance (Setting Sun 3) that grants you +2 to attacks and +4 to damage against foes larger than you.

I thought there was a stance that gave you +2 to AC against larger foes, but as I can't find it I'm probably making that up.

[Tokuhara]

If you are going Warblade I suggest you only dip Bloodclaw Master for two levels at most to keep your BAB up.

Ok, so thus far, I have:

Race: Whisper Gnome
Class: Warblade 6/Bloodclaw Master 2/X 12

Kinda wish I could fill that void with something meaningful. Something Special. Something heartwarming...

[under_score]

Personally, I would go as much straight warblade as possible. Take any relevant dips you want, but more warblade is always good. Or, at least, put some of those levels before warblade (if you can) so that your Initiator Level will be higher and you can learn higher level maneuvers as you pursue the sublime way.

[Tokuhara]

Personally, I would go as much straight warblade as possible. Take any relevant dips you want, but more warblade is always good. Or, at least, put some of those levels before warblade (if you can) so that your Initiator Level will be higher and you can learn higher level maneuvers as you pursue the sublime way.

I thought of dipping into Crusader for Devout Spirit maneuvers (Thicket of Blades essentially), but beyond that, I feel ToB was kinda unimpressive for mid-high tier PCs

[under_score]

Sure, you won't be keeping up with casters ultimately, but some of the later maneuvers are quite nice -- though, as I'm looking at them, I can kind of see your point. I've never gotten a chance to play one of these guys at a terribly high level, and perhaps I'm just projecting that desire.

(I am, also, not a master of optimization. Not a particular specialty of mine, so far as I know).

[Tokuhara]

Sure, you won't be keeping up with casters ultimately, but some of the later maneuvers are quite nice -- though, as I'm looking at them, I can kind of see your point. I've never gotten a chance to play one of these guys at a terribly high level, and perhaps I'm just projecting that desire.

(I am, also, not a master of optimization. Not a particular specialty of mine, so far as I know).

It was a noble attempt by WotC tho.

[Keld Denar]

What maneuver schools were you looking at? Iron Heart and Diamond Mind tend to be the strongest two schools that warblades get to draw from. Tiger Claw is also decent.

I helped a guy here build a build a little bit ago that dipped some Rogue in his Warblade. This gave him 1d6 SA damage at all times which made Craven and Staggering Strike delicious options.

Also, did you want to TWF? Or 2HF? Or 1HF? Or whatever?

I can help you put together a manuever list by level, if you'd like.

[under_score]

It was a noble attempt by WotC tho.

And, for my money, has some of the best class related fluff in town. All the PrC fluff in the Completes? I just skip it and move on. Just feels like handy ideas if you want them...maybe. Sublime Way? It's the baddest thing around. I love it more than the power glove.

[Tokuhara]

What maneuver schools were you looking at? Iron Heart and Diamond Mind tend to be the strongest two schools that warblades get to draw from. Tiger Claw is also decent.

I helped a guy here build a build a little bit ago that dipped some Rogue in his Warblade. This gave him 1d6 SA damage at all times which made Craven and Staggering Strike delicious options.

Also, did you want to TWF? Or 2HF? Or 1HF? Or whatever?

I can help you put together a manuever list by level, if you'd like.

I'm looking at a Combo platter of Diamond Mind, Tiger Claw, and later on, some Devoted Spirit for more strike range.

Not really into losing lots of HP for a rogue dip (d12-d8 seems lie a large loss)

I just want to do tons of damage while still being viable outside of combat.

[Keld Denar]

I'm guessing you want to TWF then?

[Tokuhara]

I'm guessing you want to TWF then?

If that's optimal for massive damage and hitting

[Dusk Eclipse]

If that's optimal for massive damage and hitting

Actually THF is more suited for high damage output builds, sure you can make a decent TWFighter who really lays down the hurt; but you need to spend so many resources (feats, levels, gold) into doing it that some people think it is not worthy.

On the contrary THF is pretty straightforward, expends much less resources (Wield your weapon in two hands and get Power attack, really with just that you can deal quite enough damage); and if you expend more resourses it becomes much more useful to the point you can One-shot any monster with printed Stats (check the Hood or the Ubercharger for proof).

I actually prefer TWF; but I know of its limits.

[Tokuhara]

Actually THF is more suited for high damage output builds, sure you can make a decent TWFighter who really lays down the hurt; but you need to spend so many resources (feats, levels, gold) into doing it that some people think it is not worthy.

On the contrary THF is pretty straightforward, expends much less resources (Wield your weapon in two hands and get Power attack, really with just that you can deal quite enough damage); and if you expend more resourses it becomes much more useful to the point you can One-shot any monster with printed Stats (check the Hood or the Ubercharger for proof).

I actually prefer TWF; but I know of its limits.

I understand this, but with my less-than-stellar strength, THF is less optimal.

[Dusk Eclipse]

Have you already got your stats? Is this for character building or character improving?

[Essence_of_War]

It is certainly do-able to be a dex-based warblade, but it isn't playing to as many of your race/class strengths.

I'd say let the Robot and the Goliath handle the enemies primary attention. You be quick and deadly and stay out of one-on-one melee bash-fests. My recommendation is to go the Swordsage route where you have access to the delectable Shadow Blade feat which allows you to add your dex bonus to damage as long as you're in a Shadow Hand stance.

Edit:


I understand this, but with my less-than-stellar strength, THF is less optimal.

Can actually be irrelevant. If you take exotic weapon prof to wield a spiked chain, and take the shadow blade feat, you can wield a finessable THF weapon with your damage keyed to your dex.

It is an excellent choice for the swordsage.

[Tokuhara]

It is certainly do-able to be a dex-based warblade, but it isn't playing to as many of your race/class strengths.

I'd say let the Robot and the Goliath handle the enemies primary attention. You be quick and deadly and stay out of one-on-one melee bash-fests. My recommendation is to go the Swordsage route where you have access to the delectable Shadow Blade feat which allows you to add your dex bonus to damage as long as you're in a Shadow Hand stance.

Can actually be irrelevant. If you take exotic weapon prof to wield a spiked chain, and take the shadow blade feat, you can wield a finessable THF weapon with your damage keyed to your dex.

It is an excellent choice for the swordsage.

Again, I'm going warblade for the HP boon. Last character I ran with these guys got killed by a pit trap. I was a Dwarf Warlock. The Goliath is attempting to be a quick-footed punching machine while the Robot is our tank. I'm doing the major damage here, so I need to lay the hurt while still having survivability in singles combat

[Keld Denar]

HP come mostly from Con past a certain point. The difference between a d8 and a d12 on average is only 2 HP per level. Thus, a 2 level Swordsage dip would only cost you about 4 HP at the end. I'd say you'd benefit more from 2-4 levels of Swordsage on a TWFing build than you would from 2 levels of Bloodclaw Master. Shadow Blade is a lot of damage per round with TWFing, trust me.

[Tokuhara]

HP come mostly from Con past a certain point. The difference between a d8 and a d12 on average is only 2 HP per level. Thus, a 2 level Swordsage dip would only cost you about 4 HP at the end. I'd say you'd benefit more from 2-4 levels of Swordsage on a TWFing build than you would from 2 levels of Bloodclaw Master. Shadow Blade is a lot of damage per round with TWFing, trust me.

Well, if I lose 6 levels of Warblade (two levels in Crusader, Swordsage, and BcM), I can still get a 9th level maneuver or two

[Keld Denar]

Why do you want Crusader levels? I mean, you mentioned picking up healing strikes, but with only 1/2 IL, the ones you get won't be very strong, and probably won't be worth the action. At level 10, when your options are +12d6 damage on a strike and +2d8+6 healing, you'll see that offense is the best defense. Plus, you won't really be able to benefit from Thicket of Blades without reach, so that's less than exciting.

I'd say you plan on building toward Warblade16/Swordsage4, with SS levels spaced in at 5, 8, 11, and 14. This'll give you 6 1st or 2nd level manuevers, a 3rd level stance(Assassin's Stance) and maneuver, a 4th level maneuver, and 2 5th level maneuvers. Sound better?

[Tokuhara]

Why do you want Crusader levels? I mean, you mentioned picking up healing strikes, but with only 1/2 IL, the ones you get won't be very strong, and probably won't be worth the action. At level 10, when your options are +12d6 damage on a strike and +2d8+6 healing, you'll see that offense is the best defense. Plus, you won't really be able to benefit from Thicket of Blades without reach, so that's less than exciting.

I'd say you plan on building toward Warblade16/Swordsage4, with SS levels spaced in at 5, 8, 11, and 14. This'll give you 6 1st or 2nd level manuevers, a 3rd level stance(Assassin's Stance) and maneuver, a 4th level maneuver, and 2 5th level maneuvers. Sound better?

I get that actually... Gawd, i feel dumb...

So no bloodclaw dip. Period?

[Keld Denar]

I wouldn't. It really doesn't give you much of anything. You lose a BAB, but get +2 to hit (well, you remove the -2 penalty, which is the same thing). Thats...pretty minor. You also get full +Str with your offhand attacks. Given that you are primarily dex based, this will result in maybe 1 or so extra damage per hit. Woo....yawn.

You'll get more out of the swordsage levels. Pick up Burning Blade and Searing Blade, and you'll get a LOT more extra damage when you boost them and full attack with both weapons.

[Tokuhara]

I wouldn't. It really doesn't give you much of anything. You lose a BAB, but get +2 to hit (well, you remove the -2 penalty, which is the same thing). Thats...pretty minor. You also get full +Str with your offhand attacks. Given that you are primarily dex based, this will result in maybe 1 or so extra damage per hit. Woo....yawn.

You'll get more out of the swordsage levels. Pick up Burning Blade and Searing Blade, and you'll get a LOT more extra damage when you boost them and full attack with both weapons.

My DM throws LOTS of fire-immune monster mobs at us, ever since I fireballed a horde of Kobolds he said were 15th level. Yeah, we had kobold-kabobs for dinner in game for the next year

[the clumsy bard]

Currently playing a high level warblade, who made the mistake of dipping into swordsage for desert wind maneuvers.

Long story short, early levels it is relevant, but almost everything you run into as you gain levels has some sort of resistance or immunity to fire. Its not a very optimal choice.

[Tokuhara]

Currently playing a high level warblade, who made the mistake of dipping into swordsage for desert wind maneuvers.

Long story short, early levels it is relevant, but almost everything you run into as you gain levels has some sort of resistance or immunity to fire. Its not a very optimal choice.

Hence, I was thinking Thundering Burst weapons. Not a whole lot is immune to sonic damage (except maybe the occasional deaf hobo we run into, who turns out to be a 100th level Wizard/Psion/Archivist/Warblade/Factotum...)

[Essence_of_War]

Again, I'm going warblade for the HP boon. Last character I ran with these guys got killed by a pit trap. I was a Dwarf Warlock. The Goliath is attempting to be a quick-footed punching machine while the Robot is our tank. I'm doing the major damage here, so I need to lay the hurt while still having survivability in singles combat

I'm with Keld here. Your HP will be coming principally from your CON modifier. Honestly, outside of 1st-3rd level you will not notice that big of a difference unless your dm likes the "max hp every level" rule variant where you will probably see a much bigger difference (esp. at low levels where 8->12 hp is the difference between death from an orc with falchion and living to hit it back).

DW isn't the most powerful school, but having a boost or 2 from it is a great idea to get extra damage. Esp since the 2nd level burning brand boost has no pre-reqs! Even as a swordsage you'll have to pick and choose amongst maneuvers to get the most efficient ones. Diamond Mind is great. DW/SS are often kind of weak. TC and SD are good for picking up extra damage, and while SH's strikes aren't always so hot, but it has awesome mobility powers.

[Tokuhara]

I'm with Keld here. Your HP will be coming principally from your CON modifier. Honestly, outside of 1st-3rd level you will not notice that big of a difference unless your dm likes the "max hp every level" rule variant where you will probably see a much bigger difference (esp. at low levels where 8->12 hp is the difference between death from an orc with falchion and living to hit it back).

DW isn't the most powerful school, but having a boost or 2 from it is a great idea to get extra damage. Esp since the 2nd level burning brand boost has no pre-reqs! Even as a swordsage you'll have to pick and choose amongst maneuvers to get the most efficient ones. Diamond Mind is great. DW/SS are often kind of weak. TC and SD are good for picking up extra damage, and while SH's strikes aren't always so hot, but it has awesome mobility powers.

My DM rules Max HP, so I see a big difference.

And as long as I can keep up with the major damage dealers, I'm cool

[the clumsy bard]

Hence, I was thinking Thundering Burst weapons. Not a whole lot is immune to sonic damage (except maybe the occasional deaf hobo we run into, who turns out to be a 100th level Wizard/Psion/Archivist/Warblade/Factotum...)

Sadly that happened in my campaign... minus the deafness... a guy named bob a raving homeless man came back from the last time we saw him when we were level 1, 6 years later...in real life... as an ur priest level 20th build.

[Tokuhara]

Sadly that happened in my campaign... minus the deafness... a guy named bob a raving homeless man came back from the last time we saw him when we were level 1, 6 years later...in real life... as an ur priest level 20th build.

This hobo helps us once in a great while, such as when we make the wrong deity peeved.