Familiars for divine casters that aren't NPCs?

[Coidzor]

Any major objections to allowing say, an Archivist to spend a feat on Obtain Familiar?

[Veyr]

I hadn't realized they couldn't. Sounds fine to me.

[Gullintanni]

Though I'm wary of anything that puts more tools in a Caster's belt, I don't see this as being inherently unbalancing. Typically though, Obtain Familiar requires Arcane Caster Level 3rd. Still, I don't see any mechanical or fluff reason why a Divine Caster shouldn't be able to pull this off.

[Deadtissue]

Only issue is the same one that prevents any other class from picking up a turn undead with a feat.

Its not any more overpowered than any other feat but it takes away some of what an arcane caster is the same way giving turn undead to arcane casters for a feat would take away from being a divine caster.

The classes have unique contributions and these sort of feats can blur the line if used in a way they were not intended to be used.

Its fluff but I think its important fluff!

[Coidzor]

Only issue is the same one that prevents any other class from picking up a turn undead with a feat.

Its not any more overpowered than any other feat but it takes away some of what an arcane caster is the same way giving turn undead to arcane casters for a feat would take away from being a divine caster.

The classes have unique contributions and these sort of feats can blur the line if used in a way they were not intended to be used.

Its fluff but I think its important fluff!

You can get a familiar with a feat if you're an arcane caster, it's called Obtain Familiar and Duskblades, Bards, Assassins, Knights of the Weave, et al can use it to get a familiar despite not having it as a class feature. Equating that with turn undead for a feat is a bit off. If divine casters could get turn undead for a feat, then there'd be a bit more similarity.

[Gnaeus]

Its fluff but I think its important fluff!

And fluffwise I fail to see why a cleric of a nature god couldn't have an intelligent bat, or a cleric of an Archdevil be assigned an Imp.

[HalfDragonCube]

The only thing I can see that is unbalanced is that familiars give the benefits of the Alertness feat when in arms reach, so you would pretty much gain a bonus feat when you take that feat.

[*.*.*.*]

The prestige class "Sacred Wanderer" gives divine characters familiars

[faceroll]

It's broken because it would double the number of Czilla's under a player's control. All those buff spells that make a cleric a melee monster? Shared with familiar. GG, fighter. My pet bat is better than you at fighting.

[Quietus]

It's broken because it would double the number of Czilla's under a player's control. All those buff spells that make a cleric a melee monster? Shared with familiar. GG, fighter. My pet bat is better than you at fighting.

Bats have no attacks at all, so no it's not. Even looking at something that does - let's take a cat, for example - you're still going to be seeing pathetic damage output. In this case, 1d2-1 claws and 1d3-1 bite. Even if you throw Divine Favor for +3 and Greater Magic Weapon for +5... at no point is a Fighter who can reasonably be paired with a Cleric of caster level 20+ going to feel jealous of 1d2+7 claws and 1d3+7 bite.

[faceroll]

Bats have no attacks at all, so no it's not. Even looking at something that does - let's take a cat, for example - you're still going to be seeing pathetic damage output. In this case, 1d2-1 claws and 1d3-1 bite. Even if you throw Divine Favor for +3 and Greater Magic Weapon for +5... at no point is a Fighter who can reasonably be paired with a Cleric of caster level 20+ going to feel jealous of 1d2+7 claws and 1d3+7 bite.

You seem to be missing some typical offensive cleric spells:
Righteous Might (+4 str, go up size category), Divine Power (BAB 20), Girallon's Blessing (extra arms, with claws), Holy Transformation (+4 str, sacred), Greater Visage of the Deity (+4 untyped strngth), Righteous Wrath of the Faithful (+3 morale bonus on attacks, extra attack), Bite of the Weretiger (+12 enhancement bonus to str, pick up power attack, cool!).

So our bat, with a weapon (use heroics to pick up EWP: something cool), has 20 (bab) +2 (size) + 7 (str) + 5 (GMW) + 3 (divine favor) +3 (morale), for +41 to hit. With power attack and a two handed weapon, weapon damage size isn't that important. Attack routine is Mouth Pick/Mouth Pick/Mouth Pick/Mouth Pick/Claw/Claw.

That's also ignoring all the great stuff like Luminous Armor (Greater) (full plate, no penalties), Divine Agility (+10 dex), Protection from X, Magic Vestment, Shield of Faith, Freedom of Movement, Heal, Energy Immunity, Superior Resistance, Ethereal Jaunt, Greater Spell Immunity, or Death Ward that the familiar benefits from.

Note that other than a tiny exotic weapon and one charge from the heroics wand, which the cleric carries anyway, this familiar just freely benefits from all those. There's virtually no investment on the cleric's part, and he's got a little mini-him (that also has blindsense) for free.

[Veyr]

Getting all of those buffs up before combat's gonna be hard, though, and the familiar will need more of them to be of any use.

Still, it is a good point.

[faceroll]

Getting all of those buffs up before combat's gonna be hard, though, and the familiar will need more of them to be of any use.

Still, it is a good point.

I agree; it's why I specified Czilla. Without DMM: Persist abuse, a Cleric's in combat offensive power isn't actually that spectacular. I've never played with a non-DMM cleric that wasn't playing second fiddle to a fighter when it came to hitting things.

[holywhippet]

And fluffwise I fail to see why a cleric of a nature god couldn't have an intelligent bat, or a cleric of an Archdevil be assigned an Imp.

The leadership feat could be used for things like that.

[Coidzor]

The prestige class "Sacred Wanderer" gives divine characters familiars

What's the source on that?


It's broken because it would double the number of Czilla's under a player's control. All those buff spells that make a cleric a melee monster? Shared with familiar. GG, fighter. My pet bat is better than you at fighting.

So something that's about 50-50 chance of just being banned. ...Never really liked Fighters anyway, come to think of it.

[*.*.*.*]

What's the source on that?


Player's Guide to Faerun(IIRC)

[Zaydos]

Druids (and rangers) already can get familiars. Read the urban companion ability in this web-enhancement http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20070228a.

Short of persisted spells a wizard will usually do better with a familiar than a cleric. Draconic Polymorph makes it into a real melee monster, though with just Polymorph a cleric has about equaled that do to their superior BAB (technically it doesn't quite equal it ever but) but wizards can also use Enhance Familiar. Clerics have better hp and saves though making the familiar more durable in combat.

It's not really broken, but if Wild Cohort (for a bat) or Leadership (for an Imp) are allowed I'd go with them over trying to get it houseruled. And I'd definitely not allow it and the Enspell Familiar feat (Dragon Magazine Compendium).

Also people forget familiars grant +3 to a skill, or +2 to a save; so Obtain Familiar is actually a bit of a two-for feat regardless, although the feats you're getting from it are rather bad (except the +2 to a save that's actually decent even if not the best choice). Now if hummingbird familiars are allowed (+4 Init) they get better.

Also note the scouting capabilities of familiars. Bats have blindsense, hawks have a +16 Spot bonus, etc.

At low levels a hawk familiar is pretty good (grants you a +5 to Spot checks in bright light, +2 out of it, +2 to listen, and has a +16 to its own Spot skill so it's likely to see your enemies before you do).

[TroubleBrewing]

Never really liked Fighters anyway, come to think of it.

This. Hell, the fact that there is even a discussion happening as to why the Cleric's freaking pet cat could potentially out damage the fighter indicates how awesome this thread is.

Also, Fighters suck. Give me Cleric or give me death.

[faceroll]

Druids (and rangers) already can get familiars. Read the urban companion ability in this web-enhancement http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20070228a.

Short of persisted spells a wizard will usually do better with a familiar than a cleric. Draconic Polymorph makes it into a real melee monster, though with just Polymorph a cleric has about equaled that do to their superior BAB (technically it doesn't quite equal it ever but) but wizards can also use Enhance Familiar. Clerics have better hp and saves though making the familiar more durable in combat.

It's not really broken, but if Wild Cohort (for a bat) or Leadership (for an Imp) are allowed I'd go with them over trying to get it houseruled. And I'd definitely not allow it and the Enspell Familiar feat (Dragon Magazine Compendium).

Also people forget familiars grant +3 to a skill, or +2 to a save; so Obtain Familiar is actually a bit of a two-for feat regardless, although the feats you're getting from it are rather bad (except the +2 to a save that's actually decent even if not the best choice). Now if hummingbird familiars are allowed (+4 Init) they get better.

Also note the scouting capabilities of familiars. Bats have blindsense, hawks have a +16 Spot bonus, etc.

At low levels a hawk familiar is pretty good (grants you a +5 to Spot checks in bright light, +2 out of it, +2 to listen, and has a +16 to its own Spot skill so it's likely to see your enemies before you do).

Good points in general, but if the wizard is abusing polymorph effects, there's no reason the cleric shouldn't be doing the same. If I'm getting away with that crap in a game, I am most definitely picking up the Spell and/or Animal domains.


This. Hell, the fact that there is even a discussion happening as to why the Cleric's freaking pet cat could potentially out damage the fighter indicates how awesome this thread is.

Also, Fighters suck. Give me Cleric or give me death.

When I said fighter, I really meant anything that was T3 or lower. Cleric's Pet Cat would absolutely destroy any ToB or PsyWarrior build. Maybe lightning maces could do something cool. And that's without the Cat being shapechanged into a Gold Wyrm or Titan.

[TroubleBrewing]

And that's without the Cat being shapechanged into a Gold Wyrm or Titan.

That's my point. Who needs Shapechange? It's less funny than Divine Power or Righteous Might. The fact that a Cleric can make a cat stronger than a fighter (no capital F: this applies to non-magic melee types this time!) and still keep the animal in question as a cat is hilarious.

[Quietus]

You seem to be missing some typical offensive cleric spells:
Righteous Might (+4 str, go up size category), Divine Power (BAB 20), Girallon's Blessing (extra arms, with claws), Holy Transformation (+4 str, sacred), Greater Visage of the Deity (+4 untyped strngth), Righteous Wrath of the Faithful (+3 morale bonus on attacks, extra attack), Bite of the Weretiger (+12 enhancement bonus to str, pick up power attack, cool!).

So our bat, with a weapon (use heroics to pick up EWP: something cool), has 20 (bab) +2 (size) + 7 (str) + 5 (GMW) + 3 (divine favor) +3 (morale), for +41 to hit. With power attack and a two handed weapon, weapon damage size isn't that important. Attack routine is Mouth Pick/Mouth Pick/Mouth Pick/Mouth Pick/Claw/Claw.

That's also ignoring all the great stuff like Luminous Armor (Greater) (full plate, no penalties), Divine Agility (+10 dex), Protection from X, Magic Vestment, Shield of Faith, Freedom of Movement, Heal, Energy Immunity, Superior Resistance, Ethereal Jaunt, Greater Spell Immunity, or Death Ward that the familiar benefits from.

Note that other than a tiny exotic weapon and one charge from the heroics wand, which the cleric carries anyway, this familiar just freely benefits from all those. There's virtually no investment on the cleric's part, and he's got a little mini-him (that also has blindsense) for free.

So seven buff spells to increase its damage (and yours, sure), plus between seven to twelve others? And you expect this to fly in an actual game? Look, if I'm running a group and your party includes a meta-abuse incantatrix and a warhulking hurler, you MIGHT get that to pass. But beyond that - you get ONE nightstick, if that. To put it frankly, if you bring a character to the table that's doing all that, and someone else brings a more sane Fighter, I think it's expected for the DM to look at these two characters and go "Okay, one of you has to change your character, these two simply don't work together mechanically". And in most groups - that's the crazy 15+ persistent buff DMM cleric, because holy crap, how am I supposed to run a game for someone whose familiar can one-round anything it damn well pleases?

[faceroll]

So seven buff spells to increase its damage (and yours, sure), plus between seven to twelve others? And you expect this to fly in an actual game? Look, if I'm running a group and your party includes a meta-abuse incantatrix and a warhulking hurler, you MIGHT get that to pass. But beyond that - you get ONE nightstick, if that. To put it frankly, if you bring a character to the table that's doing all that, and someone else brings a more sane Fighter, I think it's expected for the DM to look at these two characters and go "Okay, one of you has to change your character, these two simply don't work together mechanically". And in most groups - that's the crazy 15+ persistent buff DMM cleric, because holy crap, how am I supposed to run a game for someone whose familiar can one-round anything it damn well pleases?

Oh, I agree, totally, with your sentiment. Note that 5 of those spells will be lasting 200+ minutes. Some will be lasting 20 hours.

As for persisted spells, you can get quite a few without nightstick abuse. A Lightbringer Cleric with a dip in Sacred Exorcist and Contemplative, a single nightstick, and 14 base charisma, will have 3 (cleric) + 4 (night stick) + 4 (undeath domain) + 4 (charisma, from Visage of the Deity, greater) for 17 x2, or 34 turns/day. That's 4 persisted spells/day. With another +2 charisma and feat spent on extra turning, that goes up to 6 spells/day. Every additional Extra Turning feat nets you another +8 turn attempts. If you could spend a feat to get +3 on attacks and damage and an extra attack at your highest BAB 1/day for 24 hrs, as long as you sacrificed a 6th level spell slot, would you?

And get this. Let's say you're not persisting any spells at all. Typically, as a cleric, you cast a spell on your turn, and that's it. You have to wait 3-5 turns before you can do the same thing the fighter is doing, and by then, it's battle over. Now you have a minion that, every time you cast a buff, gets a lot better. After those 3-5 rounds of buffing are up, you've already done a fair amount of damage with that minion, and now you can hit things! Or, you can do other things. That is cool, too.

And my example was using the bat, the most innocuous of familiars, with no attack to speak of, and no weapon finesse. A pseudodragon/quasit/imp with girallon's blessing will be hitting almost 2x as often as the bat example (weapon finesse), and nearly 2x as hard (girallon's blessing).

If you go with a small earth elemental, the 17 base str makes it pretty much a fighter. It probably has a higher base str than your cleric.

The biggest issue is your pal's low HP (half of yours is pathetic), lack of feats, and huge bummer if it dies. Other than those limitations, the reason why a wizard's familiar isn't mixing it up as well as a cleric's is the difference in +20 to hit from divine power.

Of course, a supreme cleave from an ubercharger makes everything all moot, anyway, but having a familiar that is almost as competent at hitting stuff as you the Czilla means you now have standard actions to be spending on things that aren't hitting people.

[balistafreak]

So seven buff spells to increase its damage (and yours, sure), plus between seven to twelve others? And you expect this to fly in an actual game?

Not most of them. :smalltongue: I decidedly slot this idea into "Theoretical Optimization" in my head.


To put it frankly, if you bring a character to the table that's doing all that, and someone else brings a more sane Fighter, I think it's expected for the DM to look at these two characters and go "Okay, one of you has to change your character, these two simply don't work together mechanically". And in most groups - that's the crazy 15+ persistent buff DMM cleric, because holy crap, how am I supposed to run a game for someone whose familiar can one-round anything it damn well pleases?

I agree with this sentiment completely. Never allow massive party power disparity, it tends to end badly more often than not.

This being said, I don't see a problem with ridiculous level play if everyone's doing it. I kinda want to play a game alongside a meta-abuse Incantatrix and a War-Hulking Hurler. :smallfrown:

[Telonius]

Give me Cleric or give me death.

Cleric9 at least, that is. :smallbiggrin:

[Coidzor]

Not most of them. :smalltongue: I decidedly slot this idea into "Theoretical Optimization" in my head.

I was sort of apathetic to the TO implications unless they were really lulzy myself.

Mostly was curious as to whether there's anything that's broken without something else that's already arguably or consensually broken.

[Alleine]

The prestige class "Sacred Wanderer" gives divine characters familiars

According to google no such PrC exists, and certainly not in Player's Guide to Faerun. Are you sure that's the name? I was really excited by it... :smallfrown:

[Quietus]

Not most of them. :smalltongue: I decidedly slot this idea into "Theoretical Optimization" in my head.

Yeah, I was just calling it out because I think we've gone from the practical advice the OP asked for, into the realm of TO pretty clearly. And I felt that faceroll skipped that hurdle when he went from my "Here's a couple common abilities that could be assumed" to "here's a massive TO monstrosity that will never, or at least rarely, see play". I was trying to point out how people's worries about the familiar outdoing the fighter at fighting weren't likely to be founded, and faceroll pointed out the crazycheese level that could be gone to. Which is kind of like going from "What can I do to make Diplomacy useful aside from charisma + ranks?" to "Here's a level 10 build that can make hostile things fanatic with a standard action". It may be legal, but it's not reasonable.




I agree with this sentiment completely. Never allow massive party power disparity, it tends to end badly more often than not.

This being said, I don't see a problem with ridiculous level play if everyone's doing it. I kinda want to play a game alongside a meta-abuse Incantatrix and a War-Hulking Hurler. :smallfrown:

I'd actually like to see a game like that as well, though at that point you either have to be an op-fu pro just to challenge the players, or the whole game devolves into a narrative base anyway. The answer to "Can I do this?" is always "Yes, if it's in your character's schtick". So warhulking hurler doing something physical : Yeah, you can do it. Meta-abuse Incantatrix doing... anything, ever : Yeah, you can do it. Twice. By blinking.

[Coidzor]

According to google no such PrC exists, and certainly not in Player's Guide to Faerun. Are you sure that's the name? I was really excited by it... :smallfrown:

There's a Mystic Wanderer in MoF that's the closest thing I can find via googlefu, AFB so I can't check it myself.

[Veyr]

Since I'm not AFB.... yup, that's the one. 2nd-level Divine spells, bunch of skills (highest is Diplo 8; bunch of other things at 3), Iron Will, and non-Lawful. 10/10 spellcasting (any), grants a Familiar at 2nd level (but it only uses your Mystic Wanderer class level to determine its abilities unless you actually have Sorcerer or Wizard levels).

Also, the picture is bizarre. She's wearing a lot of clothes, they're just... not... covering everything you'd usually expect to see covered (nothing is really showing, it's just weird that she has this big flowy cape thing, and then what amounts to a loin cloth). Also, her face looks seriously messed up.

[TroubleBrewing]

So seven buff spells to increase its damage (and yours, sure), plus between seven to twelve others? And you expect this to fly in an actual game?

Sure. I'm currently playing a DMM cleric with 66 turning attempts, persisting 18 spells (thanks to a Metamagic Rod of Extend Spell). It hasn't really caused any problems, except that the Paladin of the party wants to play a Cleric now. :smallamused:

[faceroll]

Giving the cleric a familiar is *almost* like giving him an animal companion. It's quite a boost, because it almost doubles your hit-it actions.

[Coidzor]

So other than self-buffing monstrosity combo clerics since the higher HD and BAB make for a better chassis, especially with the number of buffs and ways of getting them to last longer, anything else?

[Alleine]

Since I'm not AFB.... yup, that's the one. 2nd-level Divine spells, bunch of skills (highest is Diplo 8; bunch of other things at 3), Iron Will, and non-Lawful. 10/10 spellcasting (any), grants a Familiar at 2nd level (but it only uses your Mystic Wanderer class level to determine its abilities unless you actually have Sorcerer or Wizard levels).

Also, the picture is bizarre. She's wearing a lot of clothes, they're just... not... covering everything you'd usually expect to see covered (nothing is really showing, it's just weird that she has this big flowy cape thing, and then what amounts to a loin cloth). Also, her face looks seriously messed up.

Whoo! My fleshwarper can now be a divine caster! Haha! Suck it cross class skills!

That's a cape? I thought most of it was her ridiculous sleeves. No one needs that much sleeve.

[Zaydos]

So other than self-buffing monstrosity combo clerics since the higher HD and BAB make for a better chassis, especially with the number of buffs and ways of getting them to last longer, anything else?

Blink Dog familiar.

Normally requires: Improved Familiar and CL 5 and BAB +5 (Complete Warrior).

So 10th level for wizard or hexblade; 6th level for duskblade, 7th for cleric in this case.

50% chance that any attack on it misses, and 1/round free action Dimension Door with the ability to move and/or attack on the end.

Coupled with Deliver Touch Spells to round 1 deliver that Slay Living spell you had passed to it (most touch spells remain "charged" till you successfully make a touch attack or cast another spell) or Harm. Even with that it's a pretty big power boost.

Or just don't bother with a blink dog and go for a hawk. +5 to those spot checks to avoid getting surprised, and then it flies in and deliver a Harm spell on your opponent.

Familiars are actually a pretty good class feature when used properly (a bonus feat might be better if used properly, and Abrupt Jaunt is better; most of the others are actually just simpler) and are actually probably better for clerics than wizards.

[faceroll]

So other than self-buffing monstrosity combo clerics since the higher HD and BAB make for a better chassis, especially with the number of buffs and ways of getting them to last longer, anything else?

Have you ever had a cleric cast Divine Power?

[TroubleBrewing]

It's not exactly a world-ender... :smallconfused:

[Veyr]

That's a cape? I thought most of it was her ridiculous sleeves. No one needs that much sleeve.
Yeah, sleeve I guess is more accurate; I didn't know what to call it. But the point is, her sleeves are preposterous, while for her actual body she's got... I was generous when I called it a loincloth, it's more like there's a narrow strip of fabric hanging off her weird leather armor thing, and then a belt holds it in place. And for her chest she's got two more strips of fabric; looks like a bikini top or something.

[Alleine]

Yeah, sleeve I guess is more accurate; I didn't know what to call it. But the point is, her sleeves are preposterous, while for her actual body she's got... I was generous when I called it a loincloth, it's more like there's a narrow strip of fabric hanging off her weird leather armor thing, and then a belt holds it in place. And for her chest she's got two more strips of fabric; looks like a bikini top or something.

Ah, the wonders of the completely impractical adventuring outfit.


Just out of curiosity, is it explicitly stated anywhere that a familiar acts on the same turn as its master? The PHB doesn't say so despite insinuations that this might be the case. If it doesn't, then you're gonna have one heck of a time keeping the sucker within 5 feet when he's buffed up the wazoo.

[Coidzor]

Have you ever had a cleric cast Divine Power?

Yes, it's also been made abundantly clear so far in the thread but that's only really applied to clerics and archivists imitating clerics which has been pretty well expounded upon already. Hence my asking if there were any other potential problem areas.

[dextercorvia]

Familiars share your spells. Some of them aren't as obvious. Cloud of Knives, Light of X, etc get doubled. The wizard could do this already, but I'm not sure if there are any divine specific spells like that.