what's the deal with 3.5 and pathfinder?

[Toofey]

The way people talk they're related games but pathfinder is a different company, what's up with that?

[Greenish]

Pathfinder is derived from 3.5's OGL content.

[TOZ]

Pathfinder is a published set of 3.5 houserules.

[Bovine Colonel]

Pathfinder is a game heavily based on 3.5, at least in the core content.


Pathfinder is a published set of 3.5 houserules.

I wasn't aware that houserules sets had their own splatbooks.

[Gamer Girl]

The way people talk they're related games but pathfinder is a different company, what's up with that?

Once upon a time company 1 made D&D 3.5E. They decided to make a new D&D, 4E. As 4E was a huge, radical shift from 0/1/2/3 E D&D, a lot of people don't like it. So along comes company 2. They see that 3.5E has a huge fanbase that company 1 was simply ignoring and did not care about. So company 2 set out to make their own version of 3.5E to fill the void. And that gives you the Pathfinder HouseRules.

[AslanCross]

3.5 and Pathfinder are highly compatible with one another. I've run successful games using content from both. And yeah, WOTC pretty much pretends 3.5 no longer exists, even beginning to delete some of their archived downloadable content for 3.5. Paizo and its affiliates are making use of the Open Gaming License that 3.5 was published under and are now making their own modifications to 3.5 content.

[Thrice Dead Cat]

To be fair to Paizo, they did have the rights to publish both the Dungeon and Dragon magazines. When Wizards of the Coast made their shift to 4E, they too back the publishing rights and shifted to a strictly digital format for Dragon magazine.

So, while Patherfinder does use the OGL and the basics of 3.5, it has become something else with some noticeable differences. Some people will claim their rules are nothing more than houserules for 3.5, while others will acknowledge it as a separate, if similar, system.

[Lateral]

The two are both d20 fantasy games, and are much closer to each other than, say, D&D 3.5 and d20 Modern. They're also pretty compatible, so you can take the stuff PF fixed from 3.5 and their new content and add it to the wealth of content from 3.5, while ignoring the stuff PF failed to fix. Pathfinder has its own, similar problems to 3.5, so being able to take what works and throwing away what doesn't is very helpful.

For instance, they added a feat called Deadly Aim, which is basically Power Attack for ranged weapons. In 3.5, the only way to get it is from a magic item in an obscure sourcebook statting out things from the old Dungeons & Dragons cartoon. However, they nerfed Power Attack (and by extension, Deadly Aim) hard, when it wasn't really necessary and it was pretty much just a case of 'melee can't have nice things.' I personally never include the nerf, because I find it pointless. (They also hit Tripping pretty hard- basically, they nerfed the only two ways to make a decent fighter. :smallannoyed:)

[Knaight]

So, while Patherfinder does use the OGL and the basics of 3.5, it has become something else with some noticeable differences. Some people will claim their rules are nothing more than houserules for 3.5, while others will acknowledge it as a separate, if similar, system.

This is subjective. If someone is only familiar with D20, then acknowledging the two as entirely seperate systems makes sense, but if you look at; say; In a Wicked Age, Burning Wheel, Pathfinder, D&D 3.5, Fudge, and Titled; then D&D 3.5 and Pathfinder are going to look like some fairly minor house rules.

[Ozreth]

Pathfinder wasn't as much about "fixing" what was wrong with 3.5, or being a problem free d20 game as much as it was about preserving and continuing the 3.5 legacy.

Pathfinder is 3.5 with minor tweaks and a few house rules, nothing more. It's a wonderful product and Paizo is doing a respectable job. That being said, if you've got a wealth of 3.5 stuff you might as well keep playing it and just pick up cool PF supplements as they come out. Thats what I do at least.

[holywhippet]

I think Pathfinder already existed prior to the announcement of 4th edition. Paizo were using it to present their own material using the OGL. When 4th edition was announced they studied it and decided it went in a direction completely different to what they wanted out of Pathfinder. It wasn't that they thought 4th edition was bad, it just didn't match their concept. So they developed the Pathfinder system which is often referred to as 3.75 since it keeps a lot of stuff but patches and changes many things.

[TOZ]

I wasn't aware that houserules sets had their own splatbooks.

Have you looked at some homebrew forums? :smalltongue:

[Curmudgeon]

For instance, they added a feat called Deadly Aim, which is basically Power Attack for ranged weapons. In 3.5, the only way to get it is from a magic item in an obscure sourcebook statting out things from the old Dungeons & Dragons cartoon.
I'm not sure what item you're alluding to, but 3.5 does have the Power Throw feat (Complete Adventurer) for using Power Attack with ranged thrown weapons. So that partially addresses the issue.

[Grommen]

Well if you consider 500 pages house rules then I guess Pathfinder is a set of house rules. Coarse house rules by definition are created at your house, and Pathfinder (I just checked) is sold at my local gaming store. Jes so you know.

My version of it is this. Hasbro, who owns Wizards, who saved TSR, who made D&D. They don't quite know what to do with the thing. They want to pump out stuff, make tons of money, and keep moving on. 4th edition is what 2 years old, and their are rumors that 5th edition is planned. And my impression is that they don't really care about the game, or it's fan base, long as each new supplement makes them $XX.XX.

If you like the game, you like it. If you don't...Well your not warming up to it. It's not for me. I heard that wizards have to roll to hit with a fireball and something called a "Healing Phase" and well...I started hording my 3.5 books. I'm not saying it's horrible. In fact I hope it's awesome, cause we need Dungeon's and Dragons to be strong to keep interest in gaming.

So, moveing on. Wizards pretty much hammered all their support companies. Some of were doing wonders for the game, like Pazio (who made the Pathfinder game world). Pazio was contracted to make the magazines Dungeon and Dragon (that have been around for dozens of years). Wizards yanked their rites and went totally online. No questions, the readership was going well, but they just yanked it.

O ya and Wizards had run off or fired nearly everyone responsible for creating 3rd edition anyhow. Guess where they all wound up? Ya Pazio. Pathfinder adventure paths? They grew out of the Dungeon mag. So when they got their mag yanked from under them. They still had the printers. They had the staff to write. They had the names of all the people who made adventures for Dungeon mag, and they have an open game lince. :smallbiggrin: Ya you get my point.

Now you got a bunch of people hacked off like me, who are to old to change editions again. The old 3.5 books were wearing out, and copies are selling for well over retail, so the odds of getting new players was small. You got a very upset staff over at Pazio, who still liked 3.5 (generally cause they worked on it). Hyrmm....what to do...

PATHFINDER RPG!

It's very similar cause it's supposed to be. They want those people that liked 3.5 and hate with a passion 4th. But can you blame them? Their is a fan base, and the sales look good from what I can tell.

Coarse it's about as well balanced as all other previous editions of the same game. But to me, it just means that my favorite childhood game (at least one I can call Dungeons and Dragons) is still alive and kicking.

[Lateral]

I'm not sure what item you're alluding to, but 3.5 does have the Power Throw feat (Complete Adventurer) for using Power Attack with ranged thrown weapons. So that partially addresses the issue.

The force bow, or something. It's in a really obscure supplement, but I'm pretty sure it's 1st party. (Also, I think it's online somewhere, but I don't know where.)

[ericgrau]

My original complaint against PF alpha was that it was way too extreme and heavily imbalanced the game. Now they toned it down and my main "complaint" is that it's almost the same as 3.5. Which is also its main draw. My 3.5 gaming store switched to PF, and Paizo has thrown an amazing amount of support, special events you can go to, and decent splatbooks with cool classes, feats, items, etc. in them. Since WotC has pretty much ditched 3.5, it's a great thing to get into just for that. I didn't even buy the core rulebook, I jumped straight to a splatbook because I was saying "This is just 3.5 plus a few little notes I can jot down."

[Greenish]

The force bow, or something. It's in a really obscure supplement, but I'm pretty sure it's 1st party. (Also, I think it's online somewhere, but I don't know where.)Energy Bow (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ask/20061227a). Bow of Force is from AEG and is basically an overpriced longbow with Force quality (MIC).

[Dusk Eclipse]

Lateral is Talking about Hank's Energy Bow, which has a power Shot option built into (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ask/20061227a)

Edit: Swordsaged.... by the way Greenish have I told you I love your new avatar?

[olentu]

The force bow, or something. It's in a really obscure supplement, but I'm pretty sure it's 1st party. (Also, I think it's online somewhere, but I don't know where.)

Hank’s energy bow from the animated series handbook I believe.

[Lateral]

Energy Bow (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ask/20061227a). Bow of Force is from AEG and is basically an overpriced longbow with Force quality (MIC).


Lateral is Talking about Hank's Energy Bow, which has a power Shot option built into (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ask/20061227a)


Hank’s energy bow from the animated series handbook I believe.

Yeah, that. ('Course, by RAW the power shot option only works if the PC is named Hank. :smallsigh:)

[Curmudgeon]

Hank's Energy Bow (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ask/20061227a) isn't a general solution, since it's a specific magic item. It won't work if you want a hand crossbow or something with other magical properties like aptitude, since there aren't any cost formula rules for improving the item (though you could add fixed-price boosts like blindsighted).

[Lateral]

Hank's Energy Bow (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ask/20061227a) isn't a general solution, since it's a specific magic item. It won't work if you want a hand crossbow or something with other magical properties like aptitude, since there aren't any cost formula rules for improving the item (though you could add fixed-price boosts like blindsighted).

Where did I say it was a general solution? It's really the only solution in 3.5 for bow-wielders, though.

[holywhippet]

My version of it is this. Hasbro, who owns Wizards, who saved TSR, who made D&D. They don't quite know what to do with the thing. They want to pump out stuff, make tons of money, and keep moving on. 4th edition is what 2 years old, and their are rumors that 5th edition is planned. And my impression is that they don't really care about the game, or it's fan base, long as each new supplement makes them $XX.XX.


The way I heard it, Hasbro weren't sure whether to keep D&D or not. 3.5 was making money - enough money so as to be profitable but not as much as they'd have liked. So they told Wizards to make a 4th edition which was intended to be a make or break manouver.

I hadn't heard anything about a 5th edition - I'd heard they'd be working on more 4th edition splat books first.

[Greenish]

Where did I say it was a general solution? It's really the only solution in 3.5 for bow-wielders, though.Well, there's Targeteer fighter. Spike one with the right volley archer feats and you'd probably do relevant damage (but very little else).

[Dusk Eclipse]

Yeah, that. ('Course, by RAW the power shot option only works if the PC is named Hank. :smallsigh:)

What the hell are you talking (reads the entry more closely):smalleek:

Damn you are right; :smallsigh: indeed.

[nyjastul69]

IMO the differnce between PF and 3.5 is similar to the difference between 3.0 and 3.5 D&D. Tweaks, additions, and augmentations, but nothing that fundamentally changes the system.

[peacenlove]

Where did I say it was a general solution? It's really the only solution in 3.5 for bow-wielders, though.

Peerless archer, a 5 level PrC from Silver marches (a Forgotten realms splat) gives you a similar ability, amongst others (my favorite is the ability to craft arrows).

[Jeraa]

IMO the differnce between PF and 3.5 is similar to the difference between 3.0 and 3.5 D&D. Tweaks, additions, and augmentations, but nothing that fundamentally changes the system.

That is probably better and more accurate than saying "Pathfinder is 3.5 with houserules."

[Viktyr Gehrig]

Once upon a time company 1 made D&D 3.5E. They decided to make a new D&D, 4E. As 4E was a huge, radical shift from 0/1/2/3 E D&D, a lot of people don't like it.

Hmm. I think if we're going to classify 4e as a "radical shift" in D&D, I don't think we can keep AD&D and 3.X in the same category. 4e's closer to 3.X than 3.X is to AD&D, in my opinion. Still different enough to have alienated me, though.

[Eldan]

Well if you consider 500 pages house rules then I guess Pathfinder is a set of house rules. Coarse house rules by definition are created at your house, and Pathfinder (I just checked) is sold at my local gaming store. Jes so you know.

While the book is actually 500 pages long, the actual changes aren't much more radical than many of the "here is my set of house rules, what do you guys think" threads you can find on these and similar boards.

[Lastgrasp]

Do you think Wotc wished there was a termination clause in the OGL? Since essentially their own system(3.5/Pathfinder) has pretty much eaten into all their 4e sales. Paizo has been extremely successful and has come close to the sales mark of Wotc. From what I've read on various boards the essentials line has been a big failure and Wotc has trimmed back it's production of sourcebooks.....which is never a good thing.

[CTrees]

Do you think Wotc wished there was a termination clause in the OGL?
Abso-friggin'-lutely.



Since essentially their own system(3.5/Pathfinder) has pretty much eaten into all their 4e sales. Paizo has been extremely successful and has come close to the sales mark of Wotc. From what I've read on various boards the essentials line has been a big failure and Wotc has trimmed back it's production of sourcebooks.....which is never a good thing.

This, though... Paizo definitely cuts into the sales to some extent, butthe claims like this, that I see brought up again and again? Every time it's a giant [citation needed] that never (that I've seen) gets satisfied. Minor pet peeve, really. Though the fact that Barnes & Noble/Books-a-Million are actually starting to sell Pathfinder stuff, in small quantities? That's actually an interesting sign pointing towards "some impact," there.

[Curmudgeon]

Peerless archer, a 5 level PrC from Silver marches (a Forgotten realms splat) gives you a similar ability, amongst others (my favorite is the ability to craft arrows).
Peerless Archer is actually a 10 level prestige class. Power Shot comes in at 3rd level, though, so that's a good catch. Thanks!

[Viktyr Gehrig]

This, though... Paizo definitely cuts into the sales to some extent...

Way I reckon it, almost nobody chose to not buy 4e because Pathfinder existed. The people who didn't buy into 4e would not have done so under any circumstances, and the only difference Pathfinder made is that if it hadn't been published, those people wouldn't be buying anything. There are people still playing AD&D who haven't bought anything new since before I was born.

[CigarPete]

I picked up the main Pathfinder book in B&N just before xmas 09, so they've been out in the stores for some time.

[Starbuck_II]

What the hell are you talking (reads the entry more closely):smalleek:

Damn you are right; :smallsigh: indeed.

Use Magic Device to make item think you asre named Hank. :smallbiggrin:

[Knaight]

Abso-friggin'-lutely.
Yeah, the OGL right now is helping Pathfinder in a major way, and a bunch of small systems. It is a really nice license, but not one WotC is likely to appreciate at the time being. That said, D&D isn't a hugely major product for them, its big, sure, but it is a bit of money on the side for Magic the Gathering.

[Curmudgeon]

Use Magic Device to make item think you asre named Hank. :smallbiggrin:
Yes, you can do that. Of course, it's a DC 40 UMD check to emulate Hank (or any other particular individual; see Dragon # 329 on page 67).

[Jeraa]

While the book is actually 500 pages long, the actual changes aren't much more radical than many of the "here is my set of house rules, what do you guys think" threads you can find on these and similar boards.

And the only reason it is 500 pages is because they combined two books into one - the Player's Handbook and the Dungeon Masters Guide. If they put it into two books, the equivalent of the Pathfinder DMG would be the same size as 3.5, while the PHB equivalent would be slightly bigger (splitting up some spells, and increasing the number of feats from 110 to 176 does take up a bit of space...).

[Starbuck_II]

Yes, you can do that. Of course, it's a DC 40 UMD check to emulate Hank (or any other particular individual; see Dragon # 329 on page 67).

Wait, isn't there a Prc that lets you have additional fake names?
Montebank does (an actual use for that Prc wow) at level 3 of class.

[Lastgrasp]

Way I reckon it, almost nobody chose to not buy 4e because Pathfinder existed. The people who didn't buy into 4e would not have done so under any circumstances, and the only difference Pathfinder made is that if it hadn't been published, those people wouldn't be buying anything. There are people still playing AD&D who haven't bought anything new since before I was born.

I chose to buy 4e when it came out and then I chose to sell my 4e books. Then I bought Pathfinder.

[Gnaeus]

Way I reckon it, almost nobody chose to not buy 4e because Pathfinder existed. The people who didn't buy into 4e would not have done so under any circumstances, and the only difference Pathfinder made is that if it hadn't been published, those people wouldn't be buying anything.

That is certainly true for me. I read a friend's copy, and decided that I would rather set my wallet on fire than spend money on 4e.


There are people still playing AD&D who haven't bought anything new since before I was born.

That's just because our knees hurt too badly for us to walk to the gaming store, and the arthritis makes it impossible to order things on Amazon. You will understand...someday.

[Prime32]

Yes, you can do that. Of course, it's a DC 40 UMD check to emulate Hank (or any other particular individual; see Dragon # 329 on page 67).One of the possible requirements for cursed items in the DMG is "Character must change her name to a specific name. (The item only works for characters of that name.)"

[TOZ]

IMO the differnce between PF and 3.5 is similar to the difference between 3.0 and 3.5 D&D. Tweaks, additions, and augmentations, but nothing that fundamentally changes the system.

Which is, essentially, the same as houseruling the system to me.

Of course, the more I consider it, the more I consider 4E a houseruled 3E as well. So there you have it.

[Viktyr Gehrig]

I chose to buy 4e when it came out and then I chose to sell my 4e books. Then I bought Pathfinder.


That is certainly true for me. I read a friend's copy, and decided that I would rather set my wallet on fire than spend money on 4e.

I didn't like 4e when I read it, but ever since I started playing it, it's really been growing on me. For the most part, though, I still don't care for the power structure or the crippled multiclassing; it's obviously a very finely tuned game, but it's not suitable to my tastes. I've adopted some of its systems for use in 3.P, though.

I like Pathfinder, but I've beaten it to the point that it's barely recognizable. Problem is, it's still got all the parts of D&D that have always bugged me and I'm pretty sure it's never going to change.

[Lastgrasp]

Number 1 reason I like Pathfinder.............I have thousands of dollars of 3.0/3.5 book from Wotc/3rd Party Publishes and I'm happy that they are compatible with Pathfinder. Already made a huge investment in the D20 system for the past ten years and I'm extremely happy that paizo is keeping the OGL and the system active.

[Grommen]

Alright fine. If you say so... I have 500+ pages of house rules.

At least they are in print!

And like the above mentioned poster. I don't have to toss out the 10 grand I have in books on the shelf behind me. That is not counting the 50 gigs of out of print material on my drive either.

I still hope that D&D does well. I really hate that Hasbro split a pot that might not be big enough for two companies to eat out of. Because of their decision one of two things might happen soon.

#1 My childhood joy might go up in flames when Hasbro kills D&D for good.
#2 The game I currently enjoy might go out of print yet again.

I've already seen West End Games, TSR, and FASA go, wrecking havoc on their respective RPG's. arge!

The sad thing is. The conversion to 3rd edition D&D is an anomaly in the gaming world. People hate change! Every time they change the edition people get all upset, horde the books, and threaten never to by another piece of what ever crap the company is hockin. 3red edition was the same way at first, but new people got into the game. Making it look like a good idea.

And rumors of a 5th. Comes unsubstantiated from my hobby store, who is passing it along from the distributor, and people at conventions.

Basally the brain trust at Wizards is saying "O noooo, we have nooo plans on doing that...5th edition. Na were working on the Players Handbook 4 right now."

This is code for, "It's at the printers right now as we speak and your gonna like it cause we need more money or were all DOOMED"

[DeltaEmil]

My version of it is this. Hasbro, who owns Wizards, who saved TSR, who made D&D. They don't quite know what to do with the thing. They want to pump out stuff, make tons of money, and keep moving on. 4th edition is what 2 years old, and their are rumors that 5th edition is planned. And my impression is that they don't really care about the game, or it's fan base, long as each new supplement makes them $XX.XX. Hasbro doesn't care much about D&D. Wizards of the Coast does, which is why they made 4th edition, and which is why they'll make a 5th edition, a 6th edition, a 7th edition, an 8th edition and so on as long as they hold the rights to D&D, whenever they feel that a new edition is needed to throw out the glut that has been accumulated with the prior edition. And of course they also want to make money with it. Everyone wants to get money, and there is nothing despicable with it. Just like Paizo will publish a Pathfinder 2nd edition once they sold all relevant books that could be sold, and they believe that new rules make for a better game, and as long as they'll have a financial success with it, they'll publish a Pathfinder 3rd edition, 4th edition and so on.

Anyone believing anything else is really naive.

[MeeposFire]

Just like with hackmaster.

[Hiro Protagonest]

Number 1 reason I like Pathfinder.............I have thousands of dollars of 3.0/3.5 book from Wotc/3rd Party Publishes and I'm happy that they are compatible with Pathfinder. Already made a huge investment in the D20 system for the past ten years and I'm extremely happy that paizo is keeping the OGL and the system active.

One of my friends doesn't buy 4e books for a simlar reason. It's not that he has anything against it, it's that he doesn't wanna buy the books all over again. Though he doesn't play Pathfinder either.