Domain Access: CChamp Sorc ACF

[Diarmuid]

I've got a question about the Domain Access ACF for Sorcerers in the Complete Champion book.

The ACF states that at level 5 you dont learn a new 1st or 2nd level spell, and that at all subsequent levels you know one less sorcerer spell that you can cast.

Would this mean that at 6th level you wouldnt actually learn a 3rd level spell, and so on for the other spell levels, essentially pushing your casting progression back (while still getting the spell slots that could be used on lower level spells that you did know)?

[dextercorvia]

Yes, except for the domain spell which you can cast one per day per level.

[Diarmuid]

Yikes...well that makes that ACF much less attractive. I wonder if I can talk my DM into changing it so that it doesnt impact the first spell learned of a new level.

Cant get to WotC site atm, is that changed at all in the errata? Also, does the errata cover things like the Travel domain, where the granted power works for "cleric level in rounds per day" so that it works off Sorc levels?

[dextercorvia]

No, I don't believe so.

[subject42]

This wasn't errata-ed as far as I know. It just generally fits in with the traditional practice of Never Allowing Sorcerers To Have Nice Things.

[Maho-Tsukai]

It's not AS bad as it could be if you have at least 19 wisdom. If you do, you can pick up arcane disciple and be able to cast 2 spells per-day when you get a new spell level as appose to one. You get your domain spell once-per day and your arcane disciple once-per day. The donwsides are that you suffer MAD from wis-dependency for your arcane disciple spells and as a result want to use arcane disciple for save-free spells. Look for domains with good buffs or perhaps even healing if your into that to take with arcane disciple and use your ACF to get the domain you want with save-based spells. You can take Arcane Disciple more then once too, so you can feasibly have the full 3-per day with the right feats and enough wisdom.

[Fable Wright]

I've got a question about the Domain Access ACF for Sorcerers in the Complete Champion book.

The ACF states that at level 5 you dont learn a new 1st or 2nd level spell, and that at all subsequent levels you know one less sorcerer spell that you can cast.

Would this mean that at 6th level you wouldnt actually learn a 3rd level spell, and so on for the other spell levels, essentially pushing your casting progression back (while still getting the spell slots that could be used on lower level spells that you did know)?

No. It explicitely states only first and second level spell. No ACF, ever, will take away the spell slot from the level you just learned.

Also, sorcerers can have nice things: Stack Battle Sorcerer and Stalwart Sorcerer. You don't suffer any penalty from the Stalwart anymore, and essentially have a d12 hd, based on the average, and you can still cast in armor. Plus, the decent BAB.

[dextercorvia]

Yikes...well that makes that ACF much less attractive. I wonder if I can talk my DM into changing it so that it doesnt impact the first spell learned of a new level.

Cant get to WotC site atm, is that changed at all in the errata? Also, does the errata cover things like the Travel domain, where the granted power works for "cleric level in rounds per day" so that it works off Sorc levels?

It would be better IMO to change it so that you can cast the domain spell as normal -- not one/day. If you make it the second spell known per level, it has too much of a power bump as you acquire new spell levels.


No. It explicitely states only first and second level spell. No ACF, ever, will take away the spell slot from the level you just learned.

You don't give up spell slots. You give up spells known. 1/level.

[Maho-Tsukai]

Yes, also, as I mentioned, Arcane Disciple can get you domains. A fun evil Necromancer build that I have played was a Sorcerer/Crypt Lord(3rd party class)/Fiend Blooded and I must say he was a pretty darn good Necromancer. He used the domain ACF to get the deathbound domain power and then picked up the undeath domain, Luck Domain and Corruption Domain via arcane disciple. The Crypt Lord also gave him some nice powers like the ability to make transmutation spells(including such offenders as polymorph) into necromancy spells and lichdom, as well as a(weak) rebuke which allowed him to take undead mastery and zone of animation in epic. While he did have some useless save-based arcane disciple domains between all three and his ACF domains he'd always have at least 2 spells worth casting a day at the levels he'd not gain a known spell.

All and all he was a necromancer who could make undead legions of the same size and scope as a cleric(fiend blooded allows you to pick up General of Undeath if you want, after all.). and still had some other nasty tricks. Also, the 19 wisdom is not that hard to get on a sorc without killing your sorc DCs with the right race and point spending. A lesser aasmir sorcerer can start off with 18 wis and 18 cha if you point buy right and items can always help, too. The best thing about the 19 wisdom, though, is if you become undead(Necropolitian?) you can now spell-stitch yourself with 9ths, an invaluble asset for an arcane necromancer.(As divine casters can't spellstitch at all.)

Likewise, if you don't like lesser assmair 16 wisdom will be fine if you take a +cha race that has no wis penalty. Sure, it will mean you have to dump 3 stat-boosts into wisdom, but if you start with 18 cha you just have to boost cha twice to get to 20 and human wizards who get no racial stat-boosts are happy with a base int of 21, so a base cha of 20 is not that far off and as usual can be improved with items and spells. Oh, and there are spell focai that can help if you feel DCs are lacking.

[Diarmuid]

No. It explicitely states only first and second level spell. No ACF, ever, will take away the spell slot from the level you just learned.

Also, sorcerers can have nice things: Stack Battle Sorcerer and Stalwart Sorcerer. You don't suffer any penalty from the Stalwart anymore, and essentially have a d12 hd, based on the average, and you can still cast in armor. Plus, the decent BAB.

While the part about spells known vs spell slots has been covered, the ACF does explicitly state that it also applies to all subsequent spell levels as well.

The way I see it working is at Sorc lvl 5 you take the ACF.

Rather than gaining an extra known 1st and 2nd level spell, you instead pick a domain and now at lvl 5 you can cast the 1st lvl and 2nd lvl spells from that domain each 1/day.

At 6th level, rather than gaining a 3rd lvl known spell, you instead gain the ability to cast your domain's 3rd lvl spell 1/day...but still have 3 (+ bonus) 3rd level spell slots to work with..for lower level spells I guess.

As for other feats, builds, etc...I'm not looking to HighOp this build...just looking to put an interestingly divine spin on a character who's not really divinely focused.

While having the better BAB of the Battle Sorc would be nice, I'm already getting the ability to cast in armor from Master Spellthief and dont really want to take another hit to my spells known/slots.

[Diarmuid]

Can anyone confirm that my interpretation of how the ACF works as written would work for leveling up at 5 and 6 as a sorc?

Edit - If it does work as I understand it, would adding the domain spells as a known spell rather than giving the spell 1/day be a reasonable workaround? This keeps the spells known at the same amount for a normal sorc, doesnt give extra spells/day, but limits spells known flexibility in exchange for the domain's granted power.

[Ranos]

Yes, that's pretty much how it works. At 10th level for example, you would have 4 first level spells, 3 2nd level, 2 3rd level, 1 4th level, and no 5th level spells, and you would have access to 1/day use of each spell from your domain from 1st to 5th level.

I'd recommand you get some metamagic to make use of the slots. If you're going necromancer, something like fell drain could probably work well.

Edit : Additionally, there are some ways to get extra spells known. Necrotic cyst feat, sandshaper and exalted arcanist prcs... Those would let you make use of the slots as well. I'm sure there are other ways around.

[Diarmuid]

Ok, thanks for the confirmation. I'm definitely not going necromancer, this is actually for a Spellthief/Sorc build I'm working on combining Godsblood Spelltheft, Divine Companion, and potentially Domain Access to give the character a bit of a divinely inspired background.

Certainly not looking for any kind of super optimization as the group doesnt optimize at all for the most part, but also not looking to completely hamper myself more than I already am with the multiclassing.

Any thoughts on the suggested change to how the ACF could work?

[Ranos]

Eh, it sounds alright if you ask me. Fair trade. I'd probably add a clause saying that you count your sorcerer levels as cleric levels for the purpose of domain powers, but otherwise, wouldn't touch it.

[dextercorvia]

That's what I was trying to recommend before. I think it is a good fix to a crippling ACF. Clever domain choice might make it strictly better than standard Sorcerer, but most domains with 8-9 must have spells, have crappy abilities. I would also houserule cleric level based abilities to function off of Sorcerer level, since you mentioned it earlier.