+3.5+ Spells That Actually Do What You Expect Them To

[Deth Muncher]

No, this isn't about using Wish properly. What this IS about, though, is trying to find spells that actually do what they should - specifically elemental spells. For example - if you throw a ball of fire at someone, theoretically they should catch on fire, yes? Or, as fantasy (or Mortal Kombat) today has it, if you launch an ice spell at someone, they should be frozen. If you chuck acid at someone, they should be disfigured, and/or their equipment is going to start taking some damage. If you zap someone with electricity, they could become magnetized, or take more damage if they have metal on them. I know that certain spells exist for some of these things, but this thread's purpose is twofold:

1. What are some spells that actually do what they're "supposed" to?

2. Why aren't these abilities that are (mostly) inherent to normal (i.e. real life) "elements" not present in D&D?

[Cespenar]

1a. Orb spells (kinda), various cold spells (Ice Knife, Ice Blast, Chill Touch, Sleet Storm, Ice Storm), the "Golem specials", Shocking Grasp, Shout, etc.

1b. Psionic elemental attack powers.

2. Because it was too much bookkeeping? Because the goal was never to be realistic?

[cfalcon]

Fireball does light stuff up and burn it and melt things. Players of course can mitigate some of these (flesh doesn't really light up, you smack out fires, etc.). Fireball is a pretty good spell in that regard.

All of the spells that work within their own system, like dispel magic, are pretty realistic, because they aren't fighting any real world constructs.

Why not? To an extent they are. These spell *do* damage to objects, etc. But I'm going to go with a combination of too much book-keeping and too much general power on the spells if they were interpreted as longer duration than mere moments.

The "acid energy" concept bothers me for sure.

[Eldariel]

The issue with Fire is that a quick flash of heat doesn't really cause things to be lit on fire. Things will be burned, to be sure, but a quick flash of heat doesn't really start fires, since the reaction takes time to start (as the heat isn't transmitted instantaneously).

[GoatBoy]

Improved Invisibility. Becoming invisible is such a staple of classic fantasy that it should be available sooner than later, but being able to sneak attack with impunity is too powerful. So Invisibility drops as soon as you attack someone... but there's really no reason why it should, outside of game balance.

[Kobold-Bard]

Glitterdust. Turn on a bright light in someone's eyes and they have trouble seeing for a while.

[arguskos]

Streamers, cause I expect it to do exactly what it ends up doing: murderizing anything I point it at. That counts, right?

[Starbuck_II]

No, this isn't about using Wish properly. What this IS about, though, is trying to find spells that actually do what they should - specifically elemental spells. For example - if you throw a ball of fire at someone, theoretically they should catch on fire, yes? Or, as fantasy (or Mortal Kombat) today has it, if you launch an ice spell at someone, they should be frozen. If you chuck acid at someone, they should be disfigured, and/or their equipment is going to start taking some damage. If you zap someone with electricity, they could become magnetized, or take more damage if they have metal on them. I know that certain spells exist for some of these things, but this thread's purpose is twofold:

1. What are some spells that actually do what they're "supposed" to?

2. Why aren't these abilities that are (mostly) inherent to normal (i.e. real life) "elements" not present in D&D?

Flaming Sphere does light things on fire as it isn't instanteous (instanteous fire can't so fireball fails at lighting people on fire by the rules).

[elonin]

Spells are where physics break down. For example how else would you explain invisibility working as stated?

[Jack_Simth]

1. What are some spells that actually do what they're "supposed" to?
Almost anything that operates completely on it's own mechanics does what it is supposed to do. Those aren't, however, generally the elemental spells. You might re-read the schools, though - some of them do the stuff they're "supposed" to do, but it isn't mentioned directly in the spell description (Fire Shield (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/fireShield.htm), for instance, doesn't mention that if you attack someone under the effects, that you can Catch on Fire (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/environment.htm#catchingOnFire), but it's in the rules that it can happen:

Characters exposed to burning oil, bonfires, and noninstantaneous magic fires might find their clothes, hair, or equipment on fire. Spells with an instantaneous duration don’t normally set a character on fire, since the heat and flame from these come and go in a flash.

Characters at risk of catching fire are allowed a DC 15 Reflex save to avoid this fate. If a character’s clothes or hair catch fire, he takes 1d6 points of damage immediately. In each subsequent round, the burning character must make another Reflex saving throw. Failure means he takes another 1d6 points of damage that round. Success means that the fire has gone out. (That is, once he succeeds on his saving throw, he’s no longer on fire.)

A character on fire may automatically extinguish the flames by jumping into enough water to douse himself. If no body of water is at hand, rolling on the ground or smothering the fire with cloaks or the like permits the character another save with a +4 bonus.

Those unlucky enough to have their clothes or equipment catch fire must make DC 15 Reflex saves for each item. Flammable items that fail take the same amount of damage as the character. (Emphasis added)

Fire Shield isn't instant, and is a fire spell, so that particular section applies, even though the spell itself doesn't mention it; there's a few others that are the same way (such as Delayed Blast Fireball, Produce Flame, Flaming Sphere, Fire Seeds, Fire Trap, Flame Arrow, Flame Blade, Heat Metal, Incendiary Cloud, and Wall of Fire... there's probably more in Core, even, and LOTS outside of Core).

2. Why aren't these abilities that are (mostly) inherent to normal (i.e. real life) "elements" not present in D&D?
Partly bookkeeping, partly game balance. If every time a fighter got hit by a direct-damage area effect spell, he had a high chance of losing much his equipment, things would be very, very bad for him (as opposed to just "very bad", like they are now). Plus, of course, it'd be painful to need to track HP for each individual item in your inventory.

[Deth Muncher]

Re: Cespenar - What are the Golem Specials of which you speak? I have an idea, but I'd prefer to know for sure.

Re: cfalcon - I remembered that Fireball melted things, which is neat, but I always kind of felt it lame that it didn't, y'know, burn things.

Re: Eldariel - Point.

Re: Goat Boy - Also point. Game balance is something to keep in mind, which leads to...

Re: Jack_Smith - Okay, see, this is interesting. I didn't know there were specific rules like this, and I suppose a lot of other people don't either. But yes, bookkeeping is certainly something to keep in mind - I'm quite sure people don't want to keep track of how many hitpoints their backpack has (this isn't WoW, for chrissakes), it's still a point to keep in mind, I suppose.

[Cespenar]

Re: Cespenar - What are the Golem Specials of which you speak? I have an idea, but I'd prefer to know for sure.


You probably guessed it right. I was referring to the few spells that are allowed specifically to work on golems. A Clay Golem is immune to magic, for example, but is still affected by Move Earth, since it's made of it, etc.

[Deth Muncher]

You probably guessed it right. I was referring to the few spells that are allowed specifically to work on golems. A Clay Golem is immune to magic, for example, but is still affected by Move Earth, since it's made of it, etc.

Ah, good good.

Also, to the list of things, Chill Touch seems to do what it should do thematically -freezes your limbs so you can't move.

[ScionoftheVoid]

Does Defenestrating Sphere count?

[Ravens_cry]

Re: Cespenar - What are the Golem Specials of which you speak? I have an idea, but I'd prefer to know for sure.

Re: cfalcon - I remembered that Fireball melted things, which is neat, but I always kind of felt it lame that it didn't, y'know, burn things.

Most of the fluff in the spell description was literally copy and pasted from first edition AD&D, including the bit about melting gold. Oh, and it does burn things actually "sets fire to combustibles" was another thing copied over.

[Gamer Girl]

1. What are some spells that actually do what they're "supposed" to?

2. Why aren't these abilities that are (mostly) inherent to normal (i.e. real life) "elements" not present in D&D?

1.Almost all spells....

2.They are....just not in Core. The Core spells are a sampling of 'common adventure spells'. For the most part the 'common' element/attack spells just do damage...that is what they were designed to do. Fireball is not a 'burn down a tavern' spell...it is a 'kill a group of people spell'. Cone of Cold is not a 'freeze them' spell...it's a 'kill a group of people spell'. And so forth.

Outside of Core Frostburn, Sandstorm and Stormwrack have a huge amount of elemental type spells that have all sorts of effects other then 'just do damage'.

[Deth Muncher]

I guess I should probably clarify something: I wasn't actually trying to be snotty about spells when I asked the OP, hence why I used scarequotes around "supposed to". I don't know if that quite translated well enough.

Re: Gamer Girl - Aha! I should have figured that Its Hot/Cold/Wet Outside should have some multi-part elemental spells. Thanks.

[Bhaakon]

Most of the fluff in the spell description was literally copy and pasted from first edition AD&D, including the bit about melting gold. Oh, and it does burn things actually "sets fire to combustibles" was another thing copied over.

The melting gold things is kind of silly, I don't think people realize how high gold's melting temp is. The brass buckles holding the fighter's armor together would melt first (never mind the leather straps they attach to).

Actually, having an instantaneous (or at least very fast moving) flame not set things on fire is probably more realistic. Unless the characters are standing in a field of tinder-dry grass, a working grist mill, or a library full of loose-leaf paper scrolls, most flammable materials have enough absorbed moisture or insulating bulk to resist a flash exposure. I'd consider giving the PCs a charisma hit for their missing eyebrows, though.

[faceroll]

Ice Lance (SpC) impales stuff. Pretty cool.

[cfalcon]

The fireball sets fire to combustibles and damages objects in the area. It can melt metals with low melting points, such as lead, gold, copper, silver, and bronze.

So, it can totally light stuff on fire!

Defenestrating Sphere is more Bouncing Dudes Around Sphere. It's really hard to get it to shoot someone out a window!

[Cespenar]

It can melt metals with low melting points, such as lead, gold, copper, silver, and bronze.

Huh? The only one that has a "low" melting point there is lead.

[faceroll]

Huh? The only one that has a "low" melting point there is lead.

Apparently this is not the case in dungeons & dragons, edition 3.5.

[Allanimal]

Ray of Flame has the chance to set things on fire. I just wish there was a way to pump the DC of the reflex save to put out the fire. I guess I have to hit 'em with a ray of clumsiness first.

[Jack_Simth]

Re: Jack_Smith - Okay, see, this is interesting. I didn't know there were specific rules like this, and I suppose a lot of other people don't either. But yes, bookkeeping is certainly something to keep in mind - I'm quite sure people don't want to keep track of how many hitpoints their backpack has (this isn't WoW, for chrissakes), it's still a point to keep in mind, I suppose.Well, there's also rules for the Hardness and HP of most items (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/exploration.htm#breakingAndEntering), Not modified by normal magic (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/magicItemBasics.htm#damagingMagicItems), but modified for Shields (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/magicArmor.htm#shieldHardnessandHitPoints), Special Materials (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialMaterials.htm), and Weapons (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/magicWeapons.htm#hardnessandHitPoints).

[dark.sun.druid]

A lot of the Warlock eldritch essence invocations work as they should under real life physics, without being too unbalanced. For example, Brimstone Blast forces a save of the target catches on fire after the initial damage. Another example is Hellrime blast, which does cold damage and forces a save to avoid taking a penalty to reflex (as if parts of their body have become frozen). In this way, Warlocks have more "realistic" magic that many other classes.

I do agree though that a ray of frost is too brief to freeze anything, just as a fireball is too brief to light a player on fire (although it might light paper, sawdust or the like). This is proved by an experiment in which one tries to pop popcorn with an explosion. Besides the pressure wave, the burst of heat is too brief to vaporize the water inside and pop the corn.

[CigarPete]

Combust also requires a save or the target catches on fire, just as you would expect.