Questions about Monk unarmed damage.

[Shankhappy]

Hello all. Been lurking around here for months and this is my first post.

I had a couple general questions about unarmed damage. I'm a level 5 monk with a Monk belt, I'm also a half dragon/human.

My current goal with this build is to just run around the battle field flanking/charging every thing in sight. So far it's worked amazingly well. The tank with two masterwork greatswords can't touch the damage I kick out. That being said, I'd like to clear a couple things up.

Does the feat Improved Brawl add damage to the unarmed strike? If so, how so? (does it add 1d8, or increase the damage dice by one) also, does the feat superior unarmed strike stack? (increase monk damage by 4 levels) I'm only taking this class to level 12, after that I may go rogue or a PrC.

Other than that, what good feats/items are there to add damage or attacks per round to this build in the near future? I have every official 3.5 book at my disposal. :smallbiggrin:

Thank you all.

[That_guy_there]

Superior Unarmed Strike and a Monk's Belt should indeed stack.

As for Brawl/ Improved Brawl (despited being Modern Feats) Are pointless. they increase your nonlethal damage. As a monk you have that ooption anyway.

Instead, see if your DM wuold be foolish... er I mean.. "kind enough" to let you take Improved Natural Weapin (From the MM). That should shift your damage up by one size. Snap Kick also comes to a mind as a good feat.

[Shankhappy]

Thanks for the quick response.

I was just fortunate enough to catch the GM online..he disagrees with the effect stacking. I fail to see the logic.

I've already tried the natural attack, believe me. xD

In this campaign, due to our only having 3 players, we're leveling in d20 and 3.5 classes simultaneously for the first 10 levels. My idea behind improved brawl was the added AB and damage for unarmed. It seems like that 1d8 would stack, and the feat is essentially free.

[Orannis]

Or if he would be insane enough....I mean deluded enough to get an Item (gloves perhaps) with greater mighty wallop on them. Expect to have books thrown.
In seriousness perhaps you should consider (again, if you have a VERY understanding DM) using an AOO build. You have combat reflexes as a bonus feat and you plan on running through combat anyway. Perhaps a mix of Karmic Strike (Cwar I believe) and Robilars Gambit (PHB2). The Idea being that you enter a threatened square an leave it. They get an AOO (which hopefully you will be able to dodge) and you get one back and a second if they hit you. these would be up to your Dex mod of attacks that you can make and you could still attack normally.
As another thought you could take the Fist of the Forest (ComChampion) prestige class. Its three levels and increases your unarmed damage a good bit.

[Keld Denar]

The arguements against Monk Belt/SUAS not stacking involves them both improving your monk level from a baseline perspective. IE, Belt gives you the UAS of a 10th level Monk (5+5), while SUAS gives you the UAS of a 9th level Monk (5+4). As with everything else in D&D, you take the greater of the two values. Not saying that thats the right argument, but thats the argument.

As far as Improved Natural Attack goes, however, that is 100% RAW legal. An UAS is a natural attack. Period. End of debate. The only thing unnatural about it is the fact that you can make iterative attacks with it, something normal natural attacks can't do. In all other fascets, its a natural attack and thus qualifies as a valid target for Improved Natural Attack.

Also, you are a 5th level character with a 13,000g item flaunting how you are better than a 5th level character with a 350g item. Thats...um...duh? Give him a +2 weapon and a +2 Str belt (roughly the same cost) and teach him how to efficiently Power Attack, and I'm sure his damage will be similar to or greater than yours.

[Kilbourne]

As far as Improved Natural Attack goes, however, that is 100% RAW legal. An UAS is a natural attack. Period. End of debate. The only think unnatural about it is the fact that you can make iterative attacks with it, something normal natural attacks can't do. In all other fascets, its a natural attack and thus qualifies as a valid target for Improved Natural Attack.

My main gripe with Pathfinder is that they removed this ability via errata, specifically stating that unarmed strikes cannot be improved by this feat.


Ugh.

[Shankhappy]

As far as Improved Natural Attack goes, however, that is 100% RAW legal. An UAS is a natural attack. Period. End of debate. The only thing unnatural about it is the fact that you can make iterative attacks with it, something normal natural attacks can't do. In all other fascets, its a natural attack and thus qualifies as a valid target for Improved Natural Attack.

Also, you are a 5th level character with a 13,000g item flaunting how you are better than a 5th level character with a 350g item. Thats...um...duh? Give him a +2 weapon and a +2 Str belt (roughly the same cost) and teach him how to efficiently Power Attack, and I'm sure his damage will be similar to or greater than yours.

The GM just disagrees. I'm working on proving otherwise.

The "flaunting" was a proof of concept that it can work. So many people fight to discredit noobish posters. Yes, he'd do more damage I'm sure. Plus, he's had the chance to get similar items. But with my speed and the fact that I get more attacks/round, I still trump. That's beside the point though.
I've got a couple plans to up my damage..what's the net bonus of an AoO character? I'm kind of confused by the overall usefulness?

[Orannis]

The usefulness, at least to characters I have played is that you run through the threatened squares of various enemies and this gain AOOs that you can retaliate against by there attacking and also if they hit without actually attacking.The net is that of your Dex mod (combat reflexes) and your normal attack I could be wrong of course, my Dms are....less than rules familiar. but as I have read it the advantage is that you charge through a group of enemies and so gain AOOs against them. After you do that you still have your normal attacks available. and so you could hit a group of mooks on the way to the target. So the idea being to sweep back and forth through the battle field continually entering and exiting threatened squares so as to provoke this constantly. I have only tried this once with one character and had to change after playing it once (unrelated reasons) so I and my DM could be reading it wrong. it is still an interesting idea. Good luck with the monkish build, too few people play it but it can be quite fun with a little work and so I congratulate you on finding an (apparently) nice niche in which to play it

[MeeposFire]

AoO builds have several caveats.

1) Can you make a fair number of AoO? Monks should since they get combat reflexes (for free) and should have a fair dex score. So +1

2) You need a way to make lots of AoO. This can be tricky. AoO alone are not that great you need to build for them. Reach helps as it increases the radius of enemies you can affect and it provide a better radius for the primary AoO method of movement. Feats like robilars gambit can be used to give you a common trigger (being attacked is likely to be common). Unless you can get your AoO to trigger then you may as well not have them. That takes a lot of feats or class features which is hard to fit on a monk with their other feat taxes.

3) Survival. AoO typically means you are in danger since the better stuff has people attacking you and if you do a lot of AoO of any tiype you start becoming a center of attention. So you need to boost survivability. Once again this will put a large strain on your feats and wealth.

Not impossible but it is a lot to juggle and the fighter would likely be a better choice for this sort of thing.

[Orannis]

Agreed with above, it is hard to do but it could pay off for you if you are heading that way. a dip in fighter wouldn't hurt too much since you are already pure monk and the BAB boost would help. Add to that you are charging and so Flurry of Blows is irrelevant. I also agree that Improved Natural attack should work. I would go more prestige class rather than feats personally, or spells. Really monks are special. If they actually do well they tend to be labeled over powered and they suck if they aren't. as an aside I would pump that AC since you have no (I Presume) damage reduction. Like I said, Fist of the forest. Con to AC plus unarmed damage bonus as a 3 level dip is pretty awesome

[Tokiko Mima]

Yes, the belt and the feat stack, for the basic reason that there is no good reason why they should not. They are both untyped bonuses from different sources.

However, keep in mind when you are challenging your DM's ruling on this: the net effect you get is very very small. 4 monk levels is only enough to bump you into the next higher category. d8 going to d10 only ups your average damage by a single point per attack, while 2d8 going to 2d10 only adds 2 more points of damage. When you compare this with a flaming weapon property which on average raises a weapons damage by 3.5 you can see that it's hardly worth the loss of goodwill required to force the DM to see things your way.

There are ways to get a LOT more damage out of unarmed strike, but they usually involve going outside monk to achieve. One of my fav's (popularized by a recent and very awesome Melee Warlock guide) is mixing in a little claw-lock to your monk. 3 levels of Warlock, and two feats (Eldritch Claws [Dr355] + Beast Strike [Dr358]) have not only added 2d6 eldritch damage to your UAS, but they've doubled your base UAS's damage.

[MeeposFire]

Yes, the belt and the feat stack, for the basic reason that there is no good reason why they should not. They are both untyped bonuses from different sources.



Actually they are not actually bonuses they both use the term as "treating as a monk X levels higher" not "your monk gets a +5 belt bonus to his monk levels for his unarmed strike and a +4 feat bonus to your monk level on unarmed attacks". Hence why the FAQ says they don't stack since they are not actually bonuses. People treat them like bonuses and feel like they should be bonuses but they are not. That is a reason why they can easily be said not to stack.

[Shankhappy]

There are ways to get a LOT more damage out of unarmed strike, but they usually involve going outside monk to achieve. One of my fav's (popularized by a recent and very awesome Melee Warlock guide) is mixing in a little claw-lock to your monk. 3 levels of Warlock, and two feats (Eldritch Claws [Dr355] + Beast Strike [Dr358]) have not only added 2d6 eldritch damage to your UAS, but they've doubled your base UAS's damage.

Good thoughts here folks. Especially the quoted build. But as I understand it, once I take levels in almost any class I lose the ability to level in a monk after that. So if I take levels of Warlock, there will be no more levels in Monk. Correct?

What are everyone's thoughts on Tattooed Monk? I've heard mixed reviews, but given my campaign and build I can see a 3 level dip beneficial. Taking Dragon (Breath attack. Due to a campaign twist I became a half dragon at the expense of my breath weapon, but no ECL) and one other tattoo.

Yeah..no. The AoO build definitely sounds like something for a fighter or samurai or something. I'll stick with flanking and beating skulls in.

[Tokiko Mima]

Actually they are not actually bonuses they both use the term as "treating as a monk X levels higher" not "your monk gets a +5 belt bonus to his monk levels for his unarmed strike and a +4 feat bonus to your monk level on unarmed attacks". Hence why the FAQ says they don't stack since they are not actually bonuses. People treat them like bonuses and feel like they should be bonuses but they are not. That is a reason why they can easily be said not to stack.

Yes, but can you see why I'm saying it's a little ridiculous? We are quibbling over a bonus that in virtually all cases is less than or equal to Weapon Specialization. It seems petty to deny monks this negligible advantage. Rather I would prefer to tell people how little this actually benefits them, and let them draw their own conclusions.

[MeeposFire]

Yes, but can you see why I'm saying it's a little ridiculous? We are quibbling over a bonus that in virtually all cases is less than or equal to Weapon Specialization. It seems petty to deny monks this negligible advantage. Rather I would prefer to tell people how little this actually benefits them, and let them draw their own conclusions.

You are missing the point. I am not making a statement on whether a feat or item giving a bonus is bad. It is not being petty it is about reading the rules as they are written. You are misrepresenting the issue if you want people to make informed decisions you should tell them default and why it is that way rather than posing it in such a negative light and showing your preference in such a positive one. You are not allowing them to come up with their own conclusions you are subtly trying to boost what you think, though it may not be on purpose.

[Tokiko Mima]

Good thoughts here folks. Especially the quoted build. But as I understand it, once I take levels in almost any class I lose the ability to level in a monk after that. So if I take levels of Warlock, there will be no more levels in Monk. Correct?

Correct, barring specific PrC's that let you begin taking Monk again. However, in most cases after 2 levels you have all the features out of Monk you should ever need. You can continue to level 6, but diminishing returns kick in fast. Monk gets worse/less optimal/powerful the more levels you sink into it.


What are everyone's thoughts on Tattooed Monk? I've heard mixed reviews, but given my campaign and build I can see a 3 level dip beneficial. Taking Dragon (Breath attack. Due to a campaign twist I became a half dragon at the expense of my breath weapon, but no ECL) and one other tattoo.

It's very flavorful and fun, like Drunken Monk. Generally you take it for a concept rather than because it's necessarily powerful.

If it's just a breath weapon you want, you'll find a very powerful, scaling one in the Dragonfire Adept (Dragon Magic) base class.


Yeah..no. The AoO build definitely sounds like something for a fighter or samurai or something. I'll stick with flanking and beating skulls in.

It's cliche around here, but I feel I would be doing you a disservice to not mention Swordsage. If you like Monk, you'll probably love Unarmed variant Swordsage. :smallsmile:

[Shankhappy]

Correct, barring specific PrC's that let you begin taking Monk again. However, in most cases after 2 levels you have all the features out of Monk you should ever need. You can continue to level 6, but diminishing returns kick in fast. Monk gets worse/less optimal/powerful the more levels you sink into it.


That seems to be a running opinion among some players..I'm not sure I agree. I see so many bonuses from sticking with it until level 12. (speed boost, unarmed damage, abundant step, unreasonable flurry attacks..) but that's just my opinion.

I'm playing around with this build in a lot of ways that people say aren't so great. But frankly, the DM has already told us this campaign will probably go on well into god levels. So if I decide in later levels that it's just not working, i'll rework it. But I've got a good feeling so far about Monk 12/Tattooed Monk 3/Warlock 3/rogue ∞. I care more about role playing than I do the uber OP characters. And all of these classes work well into my character's background, and I'll get some good combat out of the deal too.

[Tokiko Mima]

You are missing the point. I am not making a statement on whether a feat or item giving a bonus is bad. It is not being petty it is about reading the rules as they are written. You are misrepresenting the issue if you want people to make informed decisions you should tell them default and why it is that way rather than posing it in such a negative light and showing your preference in such a positive one. You are not allowing them to come up with their own conclusions you are subtly trying to boost what you think, though it may not be on purpose.

Actually, I was mostly trying to remain uninvolved in the issue of stacking, because again, the result is such a small, insignificant detail. My point is that it's not worth even bothering a DM over.

However, if you are arguing that untyped bonuses to levels are not bonuses because they are not typed, then realize most caster level increasing effects don't stack if they also don't mention a type. I don't see what's so special or magical in RAW about class progression level increases that they get treated differently from other bonuses, and unless I see a compelling reason to disallow them (I don't, the benefit is too small to make a difference) I would in general let monks have their small joys of stacking belts and feats. I would feel differently if it somehow led to an exploit, of course.

[Siosilvar]

Actually, I was mostly trying to remain uninvolved in the issue of stacking, because again, the result is such a small, insignificant detail. My point is that it's not worth even bothering a DM over.

However, if you are arguing that untyped bonuses to levels are not bonuses because they are not typed, then realize most caster level increasing effects don't stack if they also don't mention a type. I don't see what's so special or magical in RAW about class progression level increases that they get treated differently from other bonuses, and unless I see a compelling reason to disallow them (I don't, the benefit is too small to make a difference) I would in general let monks have their small joys of stacking belts and feats. I would feel differently if it somehow led to an exploit, of course.

Not taking a side here, but "+X caster level" is not the same wording as "treated as a monk of X levels higher". A plus sign indicates a bonus, as does the word "bonus". All the monk ones I know of use the second wording, but most caster levels ones use the first or similar.

It hasn't come up when I've played, so I don't really feel strongly one way or the other. But it's fairly obvious that the wording is different there; the argument isn't based on a lack of type. It's based on a lack of being a bonus at all.


Actually they are not actually bonuses...People treat them like bonuses and feel like they should be bonuses but they are not. That is a reason why they can easily be said not to stack.

[Coidzor]

The GM just disagrees. I'm working on proving otherwise.

What arguments have you used that he hasn't resorted to relying on his position as GM and what he says goes? :smallconfused:

Edit: Do you know about the PrCs you should be considering entering instead of staying as a full class monk?

[Elric VIII]

I'm playing around with this build in a lot of ways that people say aren't so great. But frankly, the DM has already told us this campaign will probably go on well into god levels. So if I decide in later levels that it's just not working, i'll rework it. But I've got a good feeling so far about Monk 12/Tattooed Monk 3/Warlock 3/rogue ∞. I care more about role playing than I do the uber OP characters. And all of these classes work well into my character's background, and I'll get some good combat out of the deal too.

If this is the optimization level of your whole group, the gaps in tiers tends to drastically lessen. So while high-op Monk may not compete with high-op Wizard, low-op tends to be a bit more uniform. There's nothing wrong with playing this way, it's just that people here tend to assume that you want to optimize.

Also, if you really want to be a good charger/flanker, I recomment looking into psionics and the Tashalatora feat for Monk/Psionic theurgy. Powers like Hustle or Dimension Hop are great for maneuvering and you can even use Metaphysical Claw (essentially psionic Magic Fang) on your fists.

Ardents and Psichic Warriors are Wisdom-based, as are the PrCs Fist of Zuoken and Zerth Cenobite (they are Psi-Monk PrCs). If you really want Rogue, the WotC website has a Psionic Rogue variant so that you can get the best of both.

Regardless of the choice of psionics, you should look up the feat Ascetic Rogue (CAdventurer). It lets Monk and Rogue levels stack for UAS damage and gives a bonus to the DC of Stunning Fists delivered with Sneak Attack.

[Shankhappy]

Read through the Beast Strike feat..as I'm reading it, it doesn't add any damage except your existing claw attack. My GM has been letting me add my claws (as a half dragon) without this feat. So I'm not sure what the benefit of this would be to me unless I'm misunderstanding something.

Also, I'm getting from the Warlock text that you can use the Eldritch blast an unlimited number of times per day. Is that true?

[Keld Denar]

Incorrect. You can not use Eldritch Blast more than 14,400 times in a day. Baring shananigans like Quicken SLA or gaining extra standard actions...

[Shankhappy]

Incorrect. You can not use Eldritch Blast more than 14,400 times in a day. Baring shananigans like Quicken SLA or gaining extra standard actions...

DAMMIT.
I swear there's no room for creative game play these days..

[Tokiko Mima]

Read through the Beast Strike feat..as I'm reading it, it doesn't add any damage except your existing claw attack. My GM has been letting me add my claws (as a half dragon) without this feat. So I'm not sure what the benefit of this would be to me unless I'm misunderstanding something.

The benefit is that you specifically can add claw damage to your normal Unarmed Strike damage... which seems lame until you combine and activate Eldritch Claws, which makes your claw damage into (unarmed Strike + Eldrich blast) damage. So now you are adding (Unarmed Strike + Eldritch Blast) + Unarmed strike to get damage of twice your unarmed strike and eldritch damage on any unarmed strikes that round. You may activate Eldritch claws as a free action in any round you do not make an eldritch blast.

e.g. 1d10 unarmed damage and 2d6 eldritch blast damage becomes 2d10 +2d6 total unarmed damage.

[mootoall]

For proof of INA(unarmed strike) working with IUA, look at the Fanged Ring from Dragon Magic.

[MeeposFire]

For proof of INA(unarmed strike) working with IUA, look at the Fanged Ring from Dragon Magic.

Or the FAQ, PHB2, etc...

Also does that 14,400 times a day include quicken:smalltongue:.

[Keld Denar]

Bah, nobody reads the stupid white text. So much humor...wasted on you people. I give you gold, you treat it like crap.

Le sigh.

http://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/texplainthejoke.jpg

10 rounds per minute x 60 minutes per hour x 24 hours per day = 14,400 rounds per day. Normally speaking, one EB per round, thus 14,400 EBs per day, barring things that allow you to EB as a swift action (Quicken SLA) or things that give you extra standard actions (Cunning Surge, WRT, etc).

[MeeposFire]

Bah, nobody reads the stupid white text. So much humor...wasted on you people. I give you gold, you treat it like crap.

Le sigh.

http://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/texplainthejoke.jpg

10 rounds per minute x 60 minutes per hour x 24 hours per day = 14,400 rounds per day. Normally speaking, one EB per round, thus 14,400 EBs per day, barring things that allow you to EB as a swift action (Quicken SLA) or things that give you extra standard actions (Cunning Surge, WRT, etc).

You didn't give me gold you gave me white:smalltongue:. If you gave me gold I might have been able to see it...:smallredface:

[OrganicGolem]

What type of half-dragon are you? Any qualms about worshiping Bahamut? if not, you may want to look into Gauntlets of the Talon (Complete Divine Page 97). Its a relic, but it specifically states it stacks with a monks belt and that's another +5 levels.

[Curmudgeon]

Or if he would be insane enough....I mean deluded enough to get an Item (gloves perhaps) with greater mighty wallop on them. Expect to have books thrown.
Avoid the flying manuals issue and just ask your party Sorcerer/Wizard to cast Greater Mighty Wallop on you once daily. That's not a big buffing investment, and since it makes you much more effective at keeping enemies away from the spellcaster, the return for them on that investment is good.

[Cog]

What type of half-dragon are you? Any qualms about worshiping Bahamut? if not, you may want to look into Gauntlets of the Talon (Complete Divine Page 97). Its a relic, but it specifically states it stacks with a monks belt and that's another +5 levels.
That item was updated in the Magic Item Compendium. They made it a lot cheaper, but unfortunately it no longer stacks.

[Keld Denar]

If you really want to make nice with your neighbor caster, offer to buy a 9000g Pearl of Power3 for him. That way, you are effectively giving him an extra spell slot to spend on you. Sure, that means he has to take one of his 3rd level spells twice, essentially, but its not a bad investment for either of you.

Doesn't work so well with Sorcerers though...I guess maybe you could buy a custom Runestaff? That'll probably be pretty pricey though.

[Shankhappy]

What type of half-dragon are you? Any qualms about worshiping Bahamut? if not, you may want to look into Gauntlets of the Talon (Complete Divine Page 97). Its a relic, but it specifically states it stacks with a monks belt and that's another +5 levels.

Ah..because, technically, eldricht claws state that you add your unarmed damage, period. Making it so that you double up. Sort of makes sense to me, but the DM would never allow it. xD
He had to be bribed into letting me use the Dragon Magazine to begin with.

[Coidzor]

Doesn't work so well with Sorcerers though...I guess maybe you could buy a custom Runestaff? That'll probably be pretty pricey though.

Maybe a Knowstone?