What published villains don't stink?

[Axinian]

From a mechanical standpoint.

There are a lot of villains in modules and in books like Elder Evils that are pretty good as characters, but a lot of them are built terribly unless they're straight spellcasters, and even then...

So what are some villains you've seen that can actually present a good challenge as written?

[Tvtyrant]

A Beholder Queen makes for a pretty good high level enemy; they get tons of rays and are freaking huge.

[Bhaakon]

A Beholder Queen makes for a pretty good high level enemy; they get tons of rays and are freaking huge.

I think the OP means unique villainous NPCs and creatures from books and published modules, not just generic high level monsters.

In which case I agree, they're designed to be flavorful characters more than optimized opponents. I can't think of any optimized published villains off the top of my head.

[Axinian]

In which case I agree, they're designed to be flavorful characters more than optimized opponents. I can't think of any optimized published villains off the top of my head.

Well they don't have to be particularly optimized, just solid. A lot of villains could be killed outright by an unoptimized PC thee levels lower than them.

[MeeposFire]

The problem with villains that are truly Op is that they are only useful for that level of game (in terms of OP). In this case the typical player would be unable to cope with that and thus be sad (and dead). Thus it pays off to make enemies for a "standard game" (at least what they think is standard) and provide flavor. They then assume that if you need a tougher opponent then you likely have the skills needed to make that opponent.

[WinWin]

The Dread Emperor. BOVD. Sure, walking around in full plate is stupid, but even a short encounter with him is coing to cause an alignment debate at your table. Considering BOVD is all about controversy over crunch, I would say that the Dread Emporer meets expected design goals.

[DwarfFighter]

It is because published NPCs are static and unchanging while PCs are dynamic and adaptive.

If this was a game where the the players had stock characters with entirely predictable development and tactics, like in a (shudder!) board-game, then it would be quite possible to create a portfolio of villains that could provide appropriate challenge.

-DF

[Seatbelt]

Strahd in Castle Ravenloft wasn't bad. His stupid were-Strahd and etc forms are terrible and don't use them. But I think for standard play - IE Sword and Board fighter, Healbot Cleric, Trapfinder Rogue and Blaster Wizard, he's a pretty difficult fight. Fell Draining magic missiles? Now everyone in the party can feel the joys of negative levels for the cost of a 2nd (3rd?) level spell. Or Fell Draining Lightning Bolt? Do some HP damage to soften them up, give them a couple negative levels, then hit them with some of his spells that target saves.

If your party is highly optimized like mine was, tweak his spell selection and tactics. You can do a lot to him to make him scary. Add the vampire age categories appropriate to his age (300 years I think?) from Denizens of Dread or Heroes of Horror.. I forget which I used. Maybe both... and some good spell selection. After our "second" boss battle on the astral plane my players refer to him as Demi-Strahd.

[Killer Angel]

It is because published NPCs are static and unchanging while PCs are dynamic and adaptive.


This. The Villains are made to be a challenge for typical Players / characters and, usually, this can involve groups with healbot clerics, blaster wizards and so on.
The DM is free to adjust spell list and tactics, accordingly to the potential of his group.

[Dsurion]

The only villains I can think of that stink mechanically are troglodytes :smallwink:

[Alleran]

Iyraclea (ELH) isn't too bad, but the rest of the NPCs in the ELH are terrible with the exception of the Simbul (and only because the Simbul has Epic Spellcasting - seriously, Sorc 20 / Acm 2 / Wiz 10... what were they thinking?). There's also Kyuss (Dungeon Magazine) and Demogorgon (Dragon #357), both of which aren't too bad. Kyuss can just blast straight through most things by virtue of his being DvR 1, though.

Oh, and who could forget Oalian from Eberron? He might be a straight Druid 20, but that's really the only thing a Druid needs (other than Natural Spell, and they're plenty powerful without it even so). You don't need to optimise him.

[Runestar]

The only viable ones I have seen are those that abuse the non-associated class rules. For example, age of worms had this frost giant sorc16, which was just cr18.

I guess that is inevitable. Classed npcs tend to be fairly weak for their cr, and this disparity only increases as you go higher in lv. Without deviating from established guidelines, the only way to mitigate this is to optimise the heck out of them...which wotc isn't known for being very good at.:smalltongue:

[Hand_of_Vecna]

Misuse/Abuse of the nonassociated class levels can get silly. Most of the big bads in EoE were lame but there were some sick minions like a minotaur cleric that was only 2CRs higher than an equivelent +0LA cleric.

[Hawk7915]

My party fell apart before we actually fought any of them, but in Red Hand of Doom, most bosses looked reasonably well built. Koth (Sorcerer), Ulwai (Bard/Stormcaller), and Varanthian (Fiendish Behir) are agreed to be pretty much perfect, party-killing monsters right out of the box. The Ghostlord and Azar Kul just need a revamp of their "spells prepared" list. The low-level dragons usually get a face lift, but the higher level ones (the red and the blue) are fine. The other two wyrmlords are pretty bad (especially the Goblin Ranger) and usually get rebuilt, but that's not bad for a large campaign's rogue gallery.

[Yora]

In which case I agree, they're designed to be flavorful characters more than optimized opponents. I can't think of any optimized published villains off the top of my head.
I would also hate to be forced to play a high power, ultra-high optimization powergamer game to make use of published material. I doubt people who don't post in D&D forums know how to make an optimized character and even some who do, don't do it anyway (though there seem to be few of us in this forum).

[Kurald Galain]

The Dread Emperor. BOVD. Sure, walking around in full plate is stupid, but even a short encounter with him is coing to cause an alignment debate at your table.

For those of us that haven't read the book - why is that?

[Yora]

I think something in the line of wearing an armor of living babies or something like that.

[hamishspence]

It's a set of armor with four chains to which anyone can be attached- though with children the armor check penalty is less.

Any attack against him only does half damage- whoever's attached take half the damage. With it being spread evenly between attached people, if there's more than one.

[Gullintanni]

It's a set of armor with four chains to which anyone can be attached- though with children the armor check penalty is less.

Any attack against him only does half damage- whoever's attached take half the damage. With it being spread evenly between attached people, if there's more than one.

Apparently someone at WoTC wasn't hugged enough as a child. :smalleek:


I would also hate to be forced to play a high power, ultra-high optimization powergamer game to make use of published material. I doubt people who don't post in D&D forums know how to make an optimized character and even some who do, don't do it anyway (though there seem to be few of us in this forum).

This is probably closer to the truth. Most NPC's can be made much more challenging just by changing up WBL distribution and swapping a few feats. Most players new to core are going to have a hard time with the Tarrasque as written though, because they tend to play by rule of cool instead of by what's effective.

Except for Druids. Bear-riding bears with bear friends are all kinds of awesome. They win Optimization and everything else...forever.

[Draz74]

My party fell apart before we actually fought any of them, but in Red Hand of Doom, most bosses looked reasonably well built. Koth (Sorcerer), Ulwai (Bard/Stormcaller), and Varanthian (Fiendish Behir) are agreed to be pretty much perfect, party-killing monsters right out of the box. The Ghostlord and Azar Kul just need a revamp of their "spells prepared" list. The low-level dragons usually get a face lift, but the higher level ones (the red and the blue) are fine. The other two wyrmlords are pretty bad (especially the Goblin Ranger) and usually get rebuilt, but that's not bad for a large campaign's rogue gallery.

Koth is weak. Varanthian is possibly too strong. Otherwise, this is mostly correct.

In particular, Ulwai, Azar Kul, the blue dragon, and the red dragon seem to be pretty spot-on in most campaign journals' experience.

[faceroll]

Exemplars of Evil abused the non-associated caster levels on a couple of monsters; a minotaur cleric of erythnul and a cleric fire giantess. Have like 2 or 3 times the party's average HD as well as a CL almost on par with their CR. Pretty solid.

[Greenish]

Du'ulora Champion (an Inspired warlord from Secrets of Sarlona) is statted as a rather competent psywarr spiked chain tripper.

Granted, it's more of a sample NPC than an actual villain, but still.

[PlzBreakMyCmpAn]

You could always "cheat" (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=197758) and build a PC.

A well-built PC can optimized1 vs unoptimized4+ and still give a party a run for its money, even if you expect the villian to lo

[Tvtyrant]

I actually like Father Llymic from Elder Evils; his abilities can actually make the fight feel desperate instead of routine; especially when he takes control of your parties charger.