Turning Undead

[AxeD]

Hey guys, I'm planning a 3.5 campaign and in one encounter, the 4 PCs (ECL 6) will be taking on approximately 30 1/2 CR kobold and human zombies. I figure that this encounter isn't overpowered since two of the PCs will be a Paladin and a Cleric, both able to turn undead.

My only question is, what area of effect (and shape) does turn undead have? It says in the PHB that it has a range of 60 ft, but does that mean, a 60 ft radius around the user? Or in cone effect?

I've never DM'd before and the guy who normally does it isn't sure either. My only experience of turning undead is playing Neverwinter Nights and reading the Order of the Stick. In NWN the effect blasts all undead surrounding the PC. In the OotS comic, Durkon seems to use it like (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0113.html) a cone (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0016.html).

I'm a little worried that if I don't make it a cone, the paladin and cleric will finish the encounter in a couple of rounds. Anyone have a ruling, errata or advice that can help me out?

[Geigan]

Technically neither but in practice it works like a radius around the user.

Yeah that'll end quickly though if they manage to swarm quickly enough they should be a threat. Though zombie move speed is abysmal...
Maybe throw in a few thicker ones to eat up turning HD.

[Gwendol]

It's within a radius of 60' unless they have total cover, or the priest/paladin does not have line of effect.

Zombie's are terribly underpowered wrt action economy as they can move and attack in the same round only if they charge (they can't even take a 5' step and attack), and since charging has strict requirements (straight line, no obstacles, must see target, etc), it's fairly easily avoided.

The "fight" will be a walk in the park.

[KillianHawkeye]

Turning affects all undead within 60 feet, closest first, until all HD the cleric can affect have been affected.

Yeah, this fight will not be much of a challenge.

[AxeD]

I was planning on having the 20 zombie kobolds charge in (2x speed), and the other 10 to move in when the kobolds have been thinned out. I might have to house rule that it works as a cone. It shouldn't be fair if it can destroy them all in one or two rounds.

EDIT: I should also mention that they are all within 60 ft and are charging at the same time as a surprise round/readied action.

Another (couple of ) question(s): How does it work in melee? Does it create an attack of opportunity for adjacent monsters? Also, is it a standard action or full round action?

[Cog]

It shouldn't be fair if it can destroy them all in one or two rounds.
To me, at least, this doesn't sound like a very fair response. If the problem is that the encounter you have in mind is too weak for the PCs' level, the problem is with the encounter. What you're suggesting sounds very much like saying, "It's not fair that a level ten fighter can get two hits in on his level five warrior opponent, so I'm going to rule that he doesn't get iterative attacks anymore."


How does it work in melee? Does it create an attack of opportunity for adjacent monsters? Also, is it a standard action or full round action?
In order: just fine, no, standard. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/specialAttacks.htm#turnOrRebukeUndead)

[AxeD]

To me, at least, this doesn't sound like a very fair response. If the problem is that the encounter you have in mind is too weak for the PCs' level, the problem is with the encounter. What you're suggesting sounds very much like saying, "It's not fair that a level ten fighter can get two hits in on his level five warrior opponent, so I'm going to rule that he doesn't get iterative attacks anymore."

That's a fair point, I was a little worried about ruining one of the most useful abilities that paladins and clerics have. To me, its the reason why I'll play a cleric over a druid 9 out of 10 times. I guess I'm trying to get the zombie attack theme from zombie movies and video games. ie, dozens of zombies attacking at the same time. I could have made the monsters stronger, but if I do that, I can't get masses of them?

Any ideas on what else I could do?

[Cog]

You could give them turn resistance from some source, or put the area under a Desecration or Unhallow effect. Alternatively, you can simply put more zombies on the scene.

[dextercorvia]

Give them encounters ahead of time where they are using Turn attempts on 1 or 2 enemies, so that they are out by the time they get to your horde.

[AxeD]

You could give them turn resistance from some source, or put the area under a Desecration or Unhallow effect. Alternatively, you can simply put more zombies on the scene.

I like the Desecration idea, I completely forgot about that spell. Should make it harder for the cleric to destroy the zombies. Thanks.

[Gwendol]

Give the monsters more HD: that will severely limit the number of zombies affected by Turn, at the same time making the regular fight slightly more challenging. Unless the whole party is equipped with clubs?

I mean, all they need to do is strike and move: only a handful of zombies will be able to charge at any given time anyway, which means most of them will never be able to attack (only move). I don't know that classes the other two members of the party are, but they should be able to contribute as well. A mage or bard casting grease will be nearly as effective as Turn undead...

[Diarmuid]

That's a fair point, I was a little worried about ruining one of the most useful abilities that paladins and clerics have. To me, its the reason why I'll play a cleric over a druid 9 out of 10 times. I guess I'm trying to get the zombie attack theme from zombie movies and video games. ie, dozens of zombies attacking at the same time. I could have made the monsters stronger, but if I do that, I can't get masses of them?

Any ideas on what else I could do?

The problem is that the scenario you're trying to recreate exists in a world/genre where Turn Undead doesnt exist.

The DMG doesnt have any way to calculate the encounter level for 30 1/2 HD zombies, and even explicitly goes to state:

"If you need thirteen or more creatures to provide enough XP for an encounter, then those individual monsters are probably so weak that they dont make for a good encounter"

As others have said, as you originally stated it you're going to spend a bunch of time rolling initiative, drawing out a map, so that the Clr and Pal can sit back and use up a couple Turn Undead attempts.

Adding in a Desecration or giving the zombies Turn Resistance is really only going to draw out a foregone conclusion. These zombies pose almost no threat to your 6th level party, even if every single one of them did nothing and let themselves be completely surrounded before taking actions.

Also, adding conditions and abilities would definitely change the encounter level, but unless you beef something up severely, you're just handing free XP to your players.

[faceroll]

They have what, 12 turns total? Just send waves upon waves of dead at them. Don't forget about grappling and flanking.