Wizard Necromancer....not as bad as people think?

[Maho-Tsukai]

Yeah, while at base, a cleric can animate more undead then a cleric and gets animate dead sooner, I have just realized a loophole that can allow a wizard to match his cleric brethren as far as undead animation is concerned. How? Simple. Leadership. The broken feat once again comes to the rescue. The idea is that you make your leadership cohort a wizard and have him take arcane disciple for the undeath domain. Now, if you took that feat you would get to cast those spells but once a day and they would be based on wisdom. However, if you have your cohort let you borrow his spellbook since arcane disciple adds the spells to the spellbook you can copy them into your spellbook and thus by RAW, they would function like any other spell you cast, being based off of int and castable more then 1/day. Take the ACF that gives you domain powers in place of bonus feats, take the deathbound domain power. Take some homebrew/3rd party PrC that gives you rebuking(animator from Hallowfaust, City of Necromancers or Crypt Lord both come to mind as good ones.) and now your almost the same as a cleric.

The only thing he's got on you is inflict healing and general of undeath, though the former can be obtained via the arcane-disciple trick mentioned earlier(Some domains provide a few inflict spells, like say the evil domain.) and the latter you can obtain via extra spell or something. Another idea is to forget rebuking and take Pale Master, which gives you potentially unlimited undead. So, yeah, by RAI the cleric beats the wizard at animation, but via Leadership a Wizard can learn desecrate and such too, and not be limited by the downsides of arcane disciple.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

That doesn't work. It specifically says it adds the domain's spells to your class list, not that of anyone else. For the character with Arcane Disciple, it would be a 3rd level spell, but for any other Wizard it's still 4th level as normal.

[Maho-Tsukai]

True, but from what I know a wizard by RAW can learn non-class list spells from the spellbooks of other wizards. I mean, I have been told on numerous accounts that a death master can learn wizard spells, despite having his own class spell list, due to his book functioning like a wizard's by RAW and that likewise, a wizard could learn death master spells from a death master's spellbook despite those being off-list. So, if this is true, I would assume that as long as a spell is recorded as an arcane spell in the spellbook, a wizard could learn it from said spellbook. So, if this is the case, my trick still works since arcane disciple allows the wizard who has it to record his domain spells in his spellbook as arcane spells and thus another wizard could learn it from his spellbook.

[Gullintanni]

Not sure about spellbooks and what have you, but any Leadership shenanigans you can pull off with a Wizard you can pull off with a Cleric, so the point is moot. Heck, Cleric A uses Leadership, recruits Cleric B as cohort. There. Now I have two Cleric level necromancers. Whereas you're struggling with Leadership to achieve parity with one Cleric necromancer.

Also, by cursory reading of the AD feat, it reads "Add the chosen domain's spells to your class list of arcane spells." Which means that your Cohort Wizard's Sorc/Wiz spell list is different from your Sorc/Wiz list. Unless you add those spells to your list somehow, the domain spells still aren't on your class list.

And on that note, if you're going to burn a feat on leadership, why not simply take Arcane Disciple yourself and be done with it?

[Allanimal]

if you're going to burn a feat on leadership, why not simply take Arcane Disciple yourself and be done with it?

Exactly what I was thinking. I don't understand why we need a cohort here...

[Maho-Tsukai]

So you don't have to suffer MAD and can cast your spells from the domain more then 1/day, thats why. Oh, and there's also the fact that you can learn other spells from your wizard and use your mooks for other things. I'm not saying it's the best way but it's one of the only ways to get desecrate on a wizard and be able to not suffer MAD as a result, and is better then using something like extra spell. Of course there is always the old standby of wizard 10/Ur-Priest 2/Mystic Theurge 8 which will give you the whole cleric list, but you still suffer MAD as a result unless you use third party feats like lost traditions to somehow set Ur-Priest to int instead of wis.

[Gullintanni]

MAD? If all you're looking for is early Animate Dead and Desecrate, then all you need is a whopping 13 Wisdom. On the other hand, being reliant on Leadership makes you Cha dependent. Either way you're increasing MAD.

Moreover; you can't copy Desecrate from your cohort just because it's in their spellbook. In order to learn and prepare a spell, you must fulfill two conditions:

A. It must be in your spellbook; and,
B. It must be on your spell list.

You cast from the Sorc/Wiz spell list.
Your cohort casts from the Sorc/Wiz/Undeath Domain spell list.

By RAW, I'm reasonably sure you could copy Desecrate into your spell book, but you still wouldn't be able to prepare it, because it's not on your spell list.

[Maho-Tsukai]

I was not aware of the fact that a spell had to be on your list to prepare it. I had assumed if you had it in your spellbook, you could prepare it. Then again I don't play wizards often(I prefer clerics and Dread Necromancers.) so I am not fully sure. My delima is that while I prefer the cleric mechanically, I prefer the RP of high int low wis to high wis low int, which is why I almost always have to use some 3rd party or Maho/Tainted Sorcerer + Acdemic or Dynamic priest shenanigans to get the RP I want, and I find that to be a pain, especially the latter.(Lost Traditions is a LOT easier then pumping taint and having to refrain from casting any spells that require a save at low-levels.)

Thus, for games where third party is not allowed I usually have to default to using Tainted Sorcerer+ Acdemic/Dynamic Priest to achieve the RP and mechanics I want, which while fun at times can be a pain, too. The upsides to this are many, such as taint as your casting stat can lead to ridiculous DCs and having high int on a cloistered cleric means you'll have more skills then anybody in the game. Dynamic/cha-based also can give you lots of taint fast if you become undead(say, necropolitian) and alows you to pull diplomancy shenanigans and abuse undead leadership and similar feats...the only issues is at low levels your totally worthless offensively in combat so your mostly relegated to buffing the meat shields and maybe doing some summoning, more or less being what wizards WANTED clerics to be except with less healing and more buffing because your evil. Not that it's bad, but you'll be doing a lot less necromancy due to most non-animation based necromancy spells requiring a save....

Fortunately once you hit tainted sorcerer everything changes and now you can have BETTER DCs then the high-wis cleric as taint is easier to raise then any ability score.(Heck, every time you cast a spell you have a chance to raise your taint.)The only issue is surviving that long with basically no offense other then summons, which can at times be an issue.

[Telonius]

And on that note, if you're going to burn a feat on leadership, why not simply take Arcane Disciple yourself and be done with it?

... or, get a Cleric cohort, with Domain Spontaneity for a create-undead heavy domain? Or, for that matter, play an Archivist?

It is an interesting idea, no doubt, but it seems like a lot of work to get something you could get easier elsewhere.

[Maho-Tsukai]

Death Master also works, the only issue is being a dragon mag class that has it's own spell list they have only the bare minimum of what necromancy can offer, kinda like the DN. They have a bigger variety of spells then a DN and are preparation casters, but their spell list is no larger then the CORE wiz/sorc list so they lack stuff like slow consumption ect.. As for archivist, it's another option and academic priest means they can have 8 wisdom and not suffer at all because that feat makes them totally SAD. The only issue is that they can't get the deathbound domain until high levels when they can pick it up via contemplative, lack rebuke.(which death masters DO have) and can't get control and command undead without scrolls or contemplative(necro domain.).

[Gullintanni]

It is an interesting idea, no doubt, but it seems like a lot of work to get something you could get easier elsewhere.

Which is usually the argument for playing a Cleric necromancer over a Wizard necromancer to begin with...Archivists...are they Int based casting? I'm AFB atm.

[Maho-Tsukai]

Yes, but they lack rebuke and early access to deathbound domain. They can still pick it up via contemplative, though. Also, death master is ALMOST a fix for the necro-wizard, the only issue is it has 0 support due to being a dragon mag class with it's own spell list...but it dose get desecrate AND animate dead as level 2s, and has rebuke to boot. The only thing it's missing is easy access to the deathbound domain power(which wizards have via an ACF that trades bonus feats for domain powers.) and spells like slow consumption ect... However, since it's a prepared caster that functions much like a wizard it's easier to justify allowing Death Masters a spellbook expansion that sourcebooks like the spell-compendium mention since it dose not automatically know all spells like, say, a DN.

[Gullintanni]

Dragon Mag usually isn't allowed at the table. Honestly? Wizards are great Necromancers. They're just lackluster undead animators. For some reason, people forget that Necromancy is a whole school of awesome that just happens to get undead servants as the cherry on a very delicious cake.

Build yourself an Uttercold Assault wizard. Let Clerics be better at Turning/Rebuking undead. It's their only class feature. :smalltongue:

[Maho-Tsukai]

True, but the allure of necromancy for me is minions. I like having flunkies to dominate the world with. Finger of Death, Wail of the Banshee and Enervation are great for killing people, but not taking over kingdoms. If I am a necromancer I want to take over the world, not destroy it. Undead armies are the best way to take over kingdoms in D&D. Every other method is disgustingly difficult compared to an undead army assault. With an undead legion you can just attack the kingdom/go to war and call it a day. Other method require massive amounts of RP and take a LOT of skill to pull off. It's alot easier to raise an army of the dead and go to war then it is to play shadow-leader and rule a kingdom via a dominated king. Also a necromancer with a giant army can take over the world, a shadow leader dominating a king? Not so much.

The other options are EVEN TRICKIER and require EVEN MORE RP and EVEN MORE high-level manipulation and usually involve economic manipulation, staging coups ect....the undead army just provides the same payoff for less work.

[Gullintanni]

Enervation isn't for killing people...I mean sure it DOES, but that's not what it's FOR. Enervation is the (non-cheesy) catalyst for the Wightpocalypse! Judicious applications of Command Undead yield serviceable armies.

...plus you can still use Animate Dead as a Wizard. You'll be slightly less voluminous than an equal level Cleric, but with the Uttercold Assault build, your undead will be healing pretty consistently, so they'll go a lot further.

[Demonix]

if you have your heart set on a wizard necromancer (and I know i did), there is always the wizard/Archivist/mystic theurge combination

Also, if you take undead leadership from libris mortis hey! instant undead army!

this character was made for an epic campaign though, so your mileage may vary.

[Maho-Tsukai]

True, but numbers make a difference. If your outnumberd, chances are your going to lose unless you use Gurella tactics, and last time I checked mindless shambling corpses would make horridly poor gurella soldiers due to the lack of a brain, something required for the cunning it takes to be a successful gurellia. I mean, the only way I could see a Wizard necromancer taking over a kingdom would be for him to be like level 17 + and thus be able to solo the world, not much unlike what Uchiha Madara is doing in Naruto at the moment.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

I'm pretty sure a Dread Necromancer with Versatile Spellcaster has both those core classes beat. He's one level behind the Cleric in gaining Animate Dead, but from 8th level on nothing can match the number of undead he can control. Both he and the Wizard could get Animate Dread Warrior from Unapproachable East and be better off than the Cleric.

[Maho-Tsukai]

True, but the DN can't do much more then be an undead army leader...what do I do when I want to go to other planes, or, say, awaken my undead? the latter is highly important and DNs as far as I remember lack awaken undead....though I suppose advance learning can allow them to obtain it.

[Ravens_cry]

D20 doesn't do Minion Master very well. With feats like Great Cleave, even a Fighter can smash through puds pretty well and even if they are effective, lots and lots of combatants just slows. down. combat. to. a. crraaawwwwwwlllllll . . .
Still, Wizards are pretty good at the "Evil Sorcery" style of Necromancy,
with lots of Fun™ Spells for the Whole Family™!*

*Fun™ and Family™ are registered trademarks of NecroCorp.

***
Question on Animate Dead, can you give the things you animate HD? What I mean is, by using a, say, 200 GP black onyx, can you animate a 1st level Commoner as a, say, 8HD zombie?

[Maho-Tsukai]

True, but clerics can still get more then a wizard as far as animation goes and animation is the main lure of necromancy for me, not debuffs or save or dies. I suppose DN KINDA fixes the issue though I'd have to rely on a cohort to travel between planes and such.

The only other way I can see a wizard getting an army is to be a shadowcraft mage and use the shadow dragon army trick which allows you to create an army of dragons via combining shadowcraft mage shenanigans with greater shadow conjuration/evocation to mimic greater dragon ally, allowing you to create shadow dragons that you can get to serve you by threatening to cease the spell and thus destroy them completely. do this a bunch of times, rest as needed and you can quickly assemble an army of shadowy dragons to do your bidding, and a dragon horde is usually enough to take over stuff, though this can only be done at very high levels.

[Keld Denar]

And at the heart of this, we see why the concept of Shadowcraft Mage Shadow Miracles doesn't work. There is a difference between a wizard/sorcerer spell and a spell on your list (or in your book) that doesn't happen to be a wizard/sorcerer spell. If there wasn't, you open up all sorts of arcane/divine cross germination, which, assuming the world is older than one generation, would have exactly zero differentiation between arcane spells and divine spells.

Sorry, just had to slip that one in there.

[Beelzebub1111]

Ugh...this thread again? Clerics get the same amount of undead as wizards. 4 times their caster level in HD.

BUT! Wizards have a workaround to that that clerics DON'T get. the second level spell command undead. No HD limit, No Saving Throw for unintelligent undead. They can have the same number of human or lizardman skeletons for their army, but a Wizard can have all that PLUS a Zombie dragon to fly in on and rain death upon his enemies. And that's only if he casts it once! a 20th level wizard with a modest 24 int and extend spell can create and control control 12 40HD zombie dragons, 6 controlled for 20 days, and 6 controlled for 40. and he can just cast the spell again over a number of days building up his army of undead dragons for the upcoming invasion of whichever small city he wants.

There. Wizards are better.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Get a Belt of the Wide Earth in MIC and an Amulet of the Planes in DMG and you're all set.

Edit: Plane Shift can be Spellstitched, just pick a base race that qualifies for Magic in the Blood and you can use it 3/day.

[Maho-Tsukai]

True, but greater dragon ally IS on the wiz/sorc list and as a result the shadow dragon army trick is perfectly viable. In fact, I have a BBEG who has it as part of his thematic-basis and currently holds a massive army of shadow dragons as a result. The only issue is that it requires you to be quite high-level.

However, for armies of the dead I suppose DN dose the trick. Just have to get a cleric or wizard cohort via leadership or try and slip my re-fluffed for evil rainbow servant by the DM.

[mootoall]

I fail to see how any army of undead one can raise is massive ... I mean, your army can't exceed more than some multiple of your HD, which is never going to be more than a few hundred total undead. All of which have only 1 HD. So "massive" armies are pretty ineffective. And I don't see how waging a war's less RP intensive than saying "I Mindrape the king. He wants to tell everyone I'm the king now." End of story, you're the king.

[Maho-Tsukai]

The king announcing that SOME RANDOM STRANGER NOBODY, LET ALONE THE KING HIMSELF KNOWS ALL THAT WELL would be sure to draw TONS of suspicion. So you either have to A) spend all kinds of time in the kingdom pretending to be a good friend of the king to make sure people are not suspicious when you dominate the king and have him appoint you as ruler or B) Hope the kingdom is lawful stuiped and thus overlooks the fact that the supposedly sane king decided to appoint some random stranger in a bathrobe that nobody's ever heard of as the new leader because he's the king and what he says is law and thus must be followed no matter how fishy/odd it seems.

You could also kill off all the suspicious people but that would, in turn, make more people suspicious....either that or "Pull an NWO" and create some kind of false catastrophe/threat to the kingdom that you can easily avert and become a "hero" so your appointment to ruler-ship seems less suspicious. However, again, staging such a complex plot requires far more thought, finess and RP then "Attack them, my undead minions!" Now thats not a bad thing, but it DOSE mean the army is far less depended on the DM. I mean, yeah, the DM can make you lose, but he can't stop you from making the army easily.(He could make gold/onyx hard to come by, though...or make you have to work like heck to get enough bodies.) He however, CAN EASILY RUIN complex manipulative plots simply by saying "NPC X doesn't buy it" Most "shadow leader/puppet master" type schems are VERY, VERY, VERY easy to foil. An undead army is not that hard to foil either(some clerics can usually do the job) but is still harder to foil then a manipulative "dominate the king" type of plot.

Also, animate dead on it's own dose not built the army. The army comes from a combination of animate dead, undead leadership, created undead via spells like create undead and create greater undead and also spawn shenanigans.

[mootoall]

Care to give me actual numbers for how big an undead army can get?

[Maho-Tsukai]

It won't be that large, and a wizard will never get over 100. A cleric can get over 100 at VERY high levels but either way he'd have to be VERY CLOSE TO, if not already epic to have a conquest size army. As for the army itself, it won't get to the size needed without spawning tricks. Spawning tricks can literally give you infinite undead, even on a wizard. The only difference between a wizard and a cleric's armies will be that a cleric will have a more diverse army since his he can can control and animate more. The wizard's army will be almost all shadows/undead made with spawning tricks and spellsticthing animate dread warrior shenanigans while the clerics will be much more diverse and much larger then a wizards realistically despite both having an infinite-sized army potentinally.

[Keld Denar]

True, but greater dragon ally IS on the wiz/sorc list and as a result the shadow dragon army trick is perfectly viable. .

Except Shadow Illusion only mimics Conjouration(Creation) and Conjouration(Summoning) spells. Dragon Ally is Conjouration(Calling), similar to Planar Binding.

Regardless, Wizard Necros aren't better or worse than Cleric Necros, just different. Wizard spells tend to focus on the cursing/killing aspect of the school. Clerics tend to focus on the minionmancy aspect of the school. Granted, Wizards can do minionmancy, and Clerics can do cursing/killing, but just not as well. We can't we embrace and celebrate their differences rather than trying to make them compete head-to-head? You don't put dumb jocks on your Quiz Bowl team and you don't put smart but weak nerds on your football team. Each has its strengths, embrace them!

[Maho-Tsukai]

Yeah, but what if I want a high int, low wis character who's good at minionmancy? It is totally unfair that I can't have that without 3rd party. The ONLY non-third party way to get around that is tainted sorcerer(to play a low wis academic/dynamic cleric without **** DCs.) or Dread Necromancer....the latter of which is very slim as far as options and the former being dependent on the taint mechanic, which may not be present in every game.

[Beelzebub1111]

It won't be that large, and a wizard will never get over 100. A cleric can get over 100
How is this so? can you give the feats, spells, prestige classes, and any other requisites to prove this? Because I'm pretty sure a wizard CAN get a bigger army of undead.

[Maho-Tsukai]

Bigger then a cleric? No. A cleric will always animate and control more undead then a wizard. The ONLY way for a wizard to have an army larger then a cleric is to use spawning tricks, which a cleric can also use. Otherwise, the cleric has the wizard beat, hands down. The only thing the wizard has on the cleric is the ability to spellstitch animate dread warrior onto an undead lackey or himself if he's undead and slowly collect undead minions that do not count against his control pool at a rate of 1/day. Other then that the cleric is utterly superior as an undead animator since he has every trick the wizard has sans spellsticthing animate dread warrior AND awesome animation stuff like desecrate and general of undeath that the wizard lacks.

Encyclopedia Arcana, for 3.0, helps this a bit by providing feats and spells that make a wizard a slightly better animator. That book gives the wizard feats that can get him a weaker rebuke and the ability to animate undead that do not count against his control pool by touch via as well low-level animation spells and high-level spells that can animate fleets of ships with undead crews and even raise an entire city and it's population from the dead.(though both the feats and spells come with large drawbacks.) The issue is, again, it's 3rd party.

[Gullintanni]

How is this so? can you give the feats, spells, prestige classes, and any other requisites to prove this? Because I'm pretty sure a wizard CAN get a bigger army of undead.

Simplest method is Desecrate + Deathbound domain. It's been a while since I looked into this...but with this combo you can create up to 6HD/caster level in a single go. Use Divine Spell Power to up the CL of your Animate Dead in additional to a Bead of Karma and the usual suspects. At level 20, assuming moderate CLmancy, lets say Animate Dead CL is 28. 28 x 6HD yields 168 HD.

One of the clauses in Animate Dead dictates that anything you create in a single casting of the spell, is automatically under your control. Which means even if your control limit it 4HD/CL, you get full command of all 168 HD. It means you need a lot of corpses all at once, but the theoretical maximum is very high.

Throw in the Divine Magician ACF and I can get Command Undead as well, so that argument falls on its face...in fact, I do this with every Necromancer cleric I make, as it also allows access to a lot of potent necromancy rays (Ie. Enervation).

In pure numbers, Dread Necromancer wins by level 8. In terms of strength of the undead created, it's usually Cleric, but Dread Necromancer can definitely compete. Wizard comes up a distant last in pure minionmancy, but is a better offensive casting Necromancer than either class.

Clerics are widely considered the best Necromancers because they're very very good at Minionmancy, and they're also very very good at casting Necromancy. They're technically a little bit behind Wizard on the casting front and a little bit behind DN on the summoning front but their average strength in both is higher than that of comparable classes.

Forgot to mention...Clerics and DN's can both optimize the heck out of Rebuking, in order to command virtually any undead creature ever published outside of Epic...and a few inside of Epic.

[faceroll]

Wizards get more undead than clerics, thanks to use of simulacra. Each simulacra adds another 2x CL of undead HD to a wizard's army. As long as we're ignoring costs, a cleric's army grows linearly, while a wizard's army will be growing exponentially.


It won't be that large, and a wizard will never get over 100.

What are the units in this 100 number you are quoting, hit dice?

[Maho-Tsukai]

True, but that is still using a non-necromantic trick to match a cleric. A wizard CAN get more undead then a cleric when making use of cunning tricks but without said tricks the cleric still beats the wizard and many of those tricks(control undead, spawn manufacturing ect..) can also be pulled off by a cleric, making the cleric even better by comparison. Yes, a wizard can abuse simaclrum. Yes he can planar bind something with desecrate and animate dead as SLAs. That, however, dose not change the fact that the wizard is having to use many times cheap tricks involving spells in no way related to necromancy to do what a cleric can do without such shenanigans.

[Keld Denar]

Who cares...he's still a FREAKIN WIZARD. Having to work just a tiny bit harder to get as many minions as your Cleric friend is a small price to pay for the awesomeness that is Wizard casting. I fail to see what you are arguing here anymore. What would you propose as a solution to this "injustice"? People have already posted work-a-rounds, including yourself.

And if you want to play a smarty-pants necromancer, guess what? There's an app for that. Its called Archivist. Archivist has even MOAR oozie necromantic flavor attached to it due to their delving into crap that normal people don't have the stomach to delve into...like dead people.

If you want to play a death-lazer wielding Necromancer of doom, you are probably best off playing a Wizard. That's their strong point. If you want to play a minionmancer general of the undead, you are probably better off playing a Cleric. Sometimes a square peg really should be put into the square hole, rather than shaved off around the edges and rammed forcefully through the round one. Again, means have been shown to actually get the peg in the hole, what more do you want? I can garuntee it that WotC won't be publishing any new 3.5 content soon to fix this "injustice", so...whats your point?

[Maho-Tsukai]

There really is no point as the answer is clearly: Play a dread necromancer or taint-based cleric/tainted sorcerer and deal with it. Or TRY to get Lost Traditions by a DM, which can be done.

[faceroll]

Is there any way to get rebuke undead on an archivist?

[Maho-Tsukai]

Without 3rd party or homebrew? No, unless you don't care how strong it is and just want it for divine feats, in which case you lose a CL and dip in a class that grants it.

[mootoall]

Well hold on, to me this argument is looking like "What's the biggest weapon size I can get on my fighter," except "What's the biggest number of undead based on HD can I get on my wizard." Just like the fighter's weapon size doesn't matter as his static damage skyrockets, why do HD based undead (including from rebuke) matter if they're unlimited with Command Undead?

[Maho-Tsukai]

I have actually figured our a sollution to the issue, Death Master/Archivist/MT with early entry(alternate source spell being my favorite) gives me what I want. High Int, no wis-dependence with the right feats. All the best cleric spells. Rebuke via death master(though it's weak) and deathbound domain(contemplative.), easy access to command/control undead(death master again). Yes, I lose a single CL, but one CL and class features for tons of spells per day and all the benefits of possessing two caster classes it's a good enough trade.

Oh, and as for HD of undead thing it all comes down to variety. Sure, you can have infinite undead with spawning tricks(which a cleric can have too.) but the cleric can animate more HD then you and as a result will have infinite spawn + more undead animated via animate dead and like spells, meaning he'll have more versatility as far as minions go. Think of it in terms of a wizard and sorcerer. Both can have an equal power level but the wizard is stronger because despite a sorc still being able to break the game like him, the wizard can break the game in many ways when the sorc usually can only do it one way. Same thing applies here. Both a wizard and a cleric theoretical have the exact same size army(infinite) but the cleric's ability to animate more gives his legion versatility that the wizard's army will lack.

[mootoall]

I was under the impression that the primary limitation to both was control, not raising X amount of undead at a time. I'm no expert, but can't a 20th level wizard just raise two 20 HD creatures one round, then another two the next, using Command Undead on the ones (s)he loses control over?

[Gullintanni]

Technically yes, but its trivially easy for Clerics to gain access to Command Undead, and there's no reason not to on a Cleric built for Necromancy.

And as I mentioned earlier, you automatically control everything you create with a single casting of Animate Dead. That means if you're capable of creating 168 HD worth of undead in one casting (doable for a Cleric at 20), then even if your control limit is 96, then you get to keep all 168 HD of undead. The Create limit, therefore, is pretty relevant.


I have actually figured our a sollution to the issue, Death Master/Archivist/MT with early entry(alternate source spell being my favorite) gives me what I want. High Int, no wis-dependence with the right feats. All the best cleric spells. Rebuke via death master(though it's weak) and deathbound domain(contemplative.).


This build misses out on Rebuking, which kinda sucks because Rebuking is fantastic. If you can find an intelligent undead with class levels and Rebuke it into service, then you've essentially granted yourself a cohort. Otherwise though, it does the job.