Sadism underrated Persistable spell?

[Forsaker]

Just curious because everytime I see the ''Best persistable spell list'' threads I never see lvl 3 Sadism spell from BOVD. Unless it cannot be persisted or something (its personal), I think that +1 to attack rolls, +1 to all saves and skill checks for every 10 damage dealt in the round with no CAP is pure awsome.

At level 10 right now with my cleric I am dealing 140 - 150 per round with full attack action, that means that once I deal this damage I will have +14 or +15 hit (depends of the damage) and +14 or +15 to saves (depends of the damage) (and skills) for the entire day. If this is how this beauty works with persistance then its premium cheese imo!.

Is there anyway that I can have this effect before having my first encounter of the day? maybe summoning undead and then full attacking it to get the bonuses? Please advices will be appreciated :).

[NoldorForce]

Reread the spell text. Sadism's bonuses only apply in the round after you deal damage, not indefinitely.

[Douglas]

You're misreading the spell. The bonus from any given instance of damage only lasts a single round, independent of the duration of the spell as a whole.

You deal 150 damage in 1 round? Congratulations, you have a +15 bonus for 1 round. Deal another 150 in round 2? That means your +15 bonus stays for another round. You'll have to deal another 150 damage in round 3 if you want to keep it longer. And so on.

The spell might last all day, but the bonus doesn't.

It is a good spell, but the facts that you never have the bonus on the first round of combat and that you have to already have high damage output in order to get a worthwhile bonus push it pretty far down the list. Also, it's got the [evil] descriptor and is from one of the less used splatbooks.

[Forsaker]

I see both of your points, so once I do a 150 damage to a monster and it dies I wont keep the bonuses?. But hey! has a melee character I can continually do 140-150 damaged because of course they are just attacks which I can do unlimited. The only way that I will have less + hit from this spell is when I miss one of my attacks which is kinda hard when I am having Wraithstrike.

Im just saying that its a decent overlooked persistable spell thats all.

[NoldorForce]

I see both of your points, so once I do a 150 damage to a monster and it dies I wont keep the bonuses?. But hey! has a melee character I can continually do 140-150 damaged because of course they are just attacks which I can do unlimited. The only way that I will have less + hit from this spell is when I miss one of my attacks which is kinda hard when I am having Wraithstrike.

Im just saying that its a decent overlooked persistable spell thats all.You will keep the bonuses, but only for one round after you killed whatever with 150 damage. That's part of the issue right there, that you need a windup to get it to work in the first place. The other issue is that an attack bonus doesn't directly translate to a damage bonus (far more important in 3E). Sure, there's Power Attack, but if you're reliably dealing 150 damage in a round you've either already used Power Attack to some degree or you're using some other effect because you can't use Power Attack.

[Forsaker]

You will keep the bonuses, but only for one round after you killed whatever with 150 damage. That's part of the issue right there, that you need a windup to get it to work in the first place. The other issue is that an attack bonus doesn't directly translate to a damage bonus (far more important in 3E). Sure, there's Power Attack, but if you're reliably dealing 150 damage in a round you've either already used Power Attack to some degree or you're using some other effect because you can't use Power Attack.

I am using Power Attack at full force with Wraithstrike thats the reason I can dish that damage in a full round action and still hit my target. The choices of melee to hit or damage persistable spells are kinda limited and I saw Sadism has a formidable choice.

I persisted righteous wrath, righteous wrath of the faithfull, divine favor, divine power, wraithstrike and I have another spell avaible that I can persist (I was thinking about Sadism). Persisting Sadism could work better than vigor greater for matters of better saves (atlast temporary) and even higher +hit. I doubt that there is a better persistable lvl 5 spell or lower that I could use at this level for melee +hit or damage honestly.

[Darth Stabber]

I'm about to borrow a term from M:tG. Sadism is a "Win More spell", it's only good when you are already winning. In M:tG these are generally considered bad because you are using slots in your deck that could go to spells that actually make you more likely to win. This is also the case in D&D, since you only get so many spells and turn attempts per day. If you are reliably dealing 150 damage per turn, you obviously don't need +15 to hit. If you are missing a lot, the spell won't help you at all.

Now if the spell also gave it's bonus to damage we would have something to talk about since the effect would create a feedback loop of pain.

[Forsaker]

I'm about to borrow a term from M:tG. Sadism is a "Win More spell", it's only good when you are already winning. In M:tG these are generally considered bad because you are using slots in your deck that could go to spells that actually make you more likely to win. This is also the case in D&D, since you only get so many spells and turn attempts per day. If you are reliably dealing 150 damage per turn, you obviously don't need +15 to hit. If you are missing a lot, the spell won't help you at all.

Now if the spell also gave it's bonus to damage we would have something to talk about since the effect would create a feedback loop of pain.

True but +15 to saving throws might mean something. Losing a 3rd level spell wont hurt that bad I guess. I see the point tho, I could save that spell slot for something else and yeah its a bad idea to use all your spells with persistance and stay with no reserves for later on, thanks :).

[gallagher]

have your party druid summon many many creatures

kill those creatures the moment you think something is going to happen

side note, if you cleave, that gets added to the bonus right?

[Tyndmyr]

I'm about to borrow a term from M:tG. Sadism is a "Win More spell", it's only good when you are already winning. In M:tG these are generally considered bad because you are using slots in your deck that could go to spells that actually make you more likely to win. This is also the case in D&D, since you only get so many spells and turn attempts per day. If you are reliably dealing 150 damage per turn, you obviously don't need +15 to hit. If you are missing a lot, the spell won't help you at all.

Now if the spell also gave it's bonus to damage we would have something to talk about since the effect would create a feedback loop of pain.

I would agree. I guess you could probably abuse a bag of tricks to charge it up...but you're still essentially wasting the first round of combat to do so. Meh.

[Forsaker]

have your party druid summon many many creatures

kill those creatures the moment you think something is going to happen

side note, if you cleave, that gets added to the bonus right?

Right thats what I was thinking about, I could summon undead and then kill it to get my bonuses before the fight. Altho its been said before, looks like you don't retain those bonuses for long : /

[Benly]

To me it seems the best situation for persisting Sadism would be a situation where you have a ton of attacks with decreasing or variable accuracy - a natural-attacks spammer or crazy TWFer, say. It would help you build up accuracy over the course of multiple rounds as each round more and more of the attacks hit.

On the other hand, a persistent wraithstrike will have you hitting a lot more right from the get-go.

[Forsaker]

To me it seems the best situation for persisting Sadism would be a situation where you have a ton of attacks with decreasing or variable accuracy - a natural-attacks spammer or crazy TWFer, say. It would help you build up accuracy over the course of multiple rounds as each round more and more of the attacks hit.

On the other hand, a persistent wraithstrike will have you hitting a lot more right from the get-go.

I love the fact that I can get +15 to all my saving throws with just doing a full attack action, specially when a divine oracle gives you evasion with no BASE reflex save to back it up.

[Jack_Simth]

At level 10 right now with my cleric I am dealing 140 - 150 per round with full attack action, that means that once I deal this damage I will have +14 or +15 hit (depends of the damage) and +14 or +15 to saves (depends of the damage) (and skills) for the entire day. If this is how this beauty works with persistance then its premium cheese imo!.
As many others have said, the spell may last all day, but the bonuses don't.

If you're just looking for another spell to Persist, consider:
What's the likelihood that your DM will subject you to a dispel effect?

[tyckspoon]

You've got the basic offensive suite down; the only thing I can think of that would significantly improve it is finding a good spell to give you natural attacks so you can full-power-attack-Wraithstrike with more attacks (if you know a way to cheat Bite of the Werefoo onto your spell list, that would be ideal.) Otherwise, I'd use that last slot for a defensive buff- Death Ward, Freedom of Movement, Spell Resistance, Crawling Darkness, and Delay Death are all available to you and all pretty good defenses against assorted things.

[Forsaker]

You've got the basic offensive suite down; the only thing I can think of that would significantly improve it is finding a good spell to give you natural attacks so you can full-power-attack-Wraithstrike with more attacks (if you know a way to cheat Bite of the Werefoo onto your spell list, that would be ideal.) Otherwise, I'd use that last slot for a defensive buff- Death Ward, Freedom of Movement, Spell Resistance, Crawling Darkness, and Delay Death are all available to you and all pretty good defenses against assorted things.

Yeah that sounds great, maybe I could get bite of the werewolf with Anyspell lvl6 from the domain at level 11. Thanks.

[Forsaker]

As many others have said, the spell may last all day, but the bonuses don't.

If you're just looking for another spell to Persist, consider:
What's the likelihood that your DM will subject you to a dispel effect?

Not that high but anyways I got some items that pumps my caster level up and some other goodies.

[Tyndmyr]

To me it seems the best situation for persisting Sadism would be a situation where you have a ton of attacks with decreasing or variable accuracy - a natural-attacks spammer or crazy TWFer, say. It would help you build up accuracy over the course of multiple rounds as each round more and more of the attacks hit.

On the other hand, a persistent wraithstrike will have you hitting a lot more right from the get-go.

The only way I can see it being of use is if it's someone you literally can't hit, even with wraithstrike, etc. Something horrific from super-epic, etc. And for some reason, you can survive this thing for multiple rounds. Then charging up on something weak is viable.

[The Boz]

It would be an AWESOME spell to have on your ubercharger's favorite weapon.

[Ingus]

I often use Sadism in a similar attacking spell stack.
First of all, it's useful when, even with Wraithstrike, you may not hit (Scintillating scales, for example). It is also useful to hit more often with your iterative attacks.
It is also useful for a first hitter: charge + hit, then full attack.

IMO, it is a decent way to add tactical versatility to your gish. Not broken like wraithstrike, but useful.

[Eldariel]

I am using Power Attack at full force with Wraithstrike thats the reason I can dish that damage in a full round action and still hit my target. The choices of melee to hit or damage persistable spells are kinda limited and I saw Sadism has a formidable choice.

I persisted righteous wrath, righteous wrath of the faithfull, divine favor, divine power, wraithstrike and I have another spell avaible that I can persist (I was thinking about Sadism). Persisting Sadism could work better than vigor greater for matters of better saves (atlast temporary) and even higher +hit. I doubt that there is a better persistable lvl 5 spell or lower that I could use at this level for melee +hit or damage honestly.

Lesser Holy Transformation is a good choice. +2 Str & Con, 60' Fly Speed, +2 Sacred to saving throws. Recitation is another option, though it doesn't stack that well with Divine Favor (you can always Quicken Divine Favor, I guess). Mass Lesser Vigor is also a solid option.

Reci would also pump your saves. Then you can have Conviction & Greater Resistance; saves shouldn't be a problem in any case, and you want them high before you've taken any actions anyways.

[Hand_of_Vecna]

It could be very good if youwanted toavoid wraithstrike or if you tend to spend a round mowing through minions in most fights. If your pre-sadism buffs are good enough to slaughter mooks post-sadism you should be a boss killer.