The Final Gate and The Snarl [Archive] - Giant in the Playground Forums

MoonCat

2011-05-04, 01:50 PM

Arrakiz

2011-05-04, 02:22 PM

It's just that the true power of the Snarl is unknown to most of the people and even the Gods it would seem. Neither the Order nor Paladins or Gate creators themselves don't really know what would happen if the gates where to be destroyed. The ONLY person who knows for sure what Snarl is- is actually Redcloack (thanks to the crimson mantle). and even he does know only about fracture of it's power- as apparent by the fact that nobody seems to know enything about that "planet within a planet" thing. It seems to me that everybody just tries to stop Xykon from reaching it. They all just assume the Snarl CAN be controlled somehow so they figured it is best to leave the gates intact.

martianmister

2011-05-04, 02:33 PM

I think they see it more like "beginning of the end". OotS' first purpose is stopping Xykon from using the gates. Prevent the destruction of the gates is their secondary goal...

MoonCat

2011-05-04, 02:37 PM

Axinian

2011-05-04, 02:43 PM

No, what I mean is, is there any proof that the world would be destroyed if all gates were destroyed? Or is it just assumed that is what would happen since the holes appear to grow wen their gate is removed?
I think you just answered your own question. Without a gate, the hole in reality just gets bigger and bigger. If all the gates are destroyed, all the little holes will keep expanding until the Snarl can reach enough of itself out to destroy everything.

MoonCat

2011-05-04, 02:49 PM

Kislath

2011-05-04, 02:50 PM

Bizarre thought: What if this whole OOTS world was built solely for the purpose of utterly sealing off the other planet from contact with the rest of the multiverse? What if the snarl's purpose is to ensure that segregation?

RunicLGB

2011-05-04, 03:15 PM

But it appears to just be assumed so. Here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0544.html)Redcloak says they're expecting just a few hundred feet of growth before it stops totally, and I doubt that even with all of them open and unraveling, they wouldn't stop before the world gets engulfed by the holes. And I also wonder why no one in the Order has stopped to consider that.

Stops, probably. He doesn't know, and given RC's love of science and math it could easily be expained at a parabolic rate approaching zero (which means it will grow at a slower and slower rate, but never really stop for those who hate math.) Further the order isn't privy to RC's scientific analysis, and doesn't strike me as the kind of thing O-chull would find vitally important to tell.

Thats the big problem: No one knows. The snarl has been locked up tight for god know how long, and the gods who made the prison have been denying its existence since the begining.

SOD spoilers:
When the dark one ascended to god hood, no one told him jack about any snarl. HE only discovered it later when one of his priests got eaten by rift. After confronting the gods on it they let him in on it.

When you throw that mysterious world in the world into the mix, its very possible even the gods don't know what the snarl's been up to. But the last time the snarl did anything at all, it did a lot of damage. This is one situation where the gods, the order of the scribble, and now the order of the stick are all agreeing: Better safe then sorry.

Arrakiz

2011-05-04, 03:17 PM

From what I understand- the Snarl itself has NO purpose. It's a being of Chaos and destruction not knowing eny rules. Oooor everybody, including Redcloak and freakin' Gods seem to think that way. It just might be that the Snarl actually- evolved into... Something. Or that this whole Snarl thing IS just a bluff. Ther is no immanent world-threatening danger in case the gates were destroyed. It is even possible that. There is no snarl at all! All it's actions as we have seen so far were in retrospect- and a shady one i might add. It might just be possible that everything that is happening is a giganti scheme not to let enyone to get even near that other planet and gates are the only portals. It actually makes sense- how to keep enyone from uncovering world breaking truth? Tell them there is a great danger in pursuing it! At very worst- everyone will be cautious about it, at best- no one will be mad enaugh to mess with it. just a theory though. And a wacky one.

factotum

2011-05-04, 03:28 PM

I thought the idea was that the Gates actually weakened the rifts at the same time as sealing them--the Azure City rift has clearly been weakened by being sealed in a Gate for sixty-odd years, just look at how it ballooned in size once the gate was destroyed! Bear in mind that rift was so small originally that it fit inside the gemstone at the back of the throne.

Besides, the problem is not that the Snarl might escape and destroy everything--the problem is that the Gods might decide the Snarl is too close to getting loose and destroy the universe themselves in order to use its threads to recreate the Snarl's prison.

Personally I think this is all moot anyway, because Blackwing's glimpse into the rift over Azure City suggests the Snarl either never existed, or has somehow gone away.

RunicLGB

2011-05-04, 03:34 PM

Personally I think this is all moot anyway, because Blackwing's glimpse into the rift over Azure City suggests the Snarl either never existed, or has somehow gone away.

That whole thing has got me thinking (and im as positive as i can be without looking that someone else has posted this idea) that the world that blackwin saw WAS the Snarl, just in a different form.

The snarl is made from a bunch of snags in the threads of reality, the same threads the world is made of. Maybe Snarl got bored (or insert other motivation here) and decided to make himself a world. The rifts that allowed him to kill people and attack the order of the scribble might have given him a glimpse of the world, and after he got sealed in again, he went "to hell with it im makin one too."

King of Nowhere

2011-05-04, 03:53 PM

You know, the idea that the threads of reality that made the ssnarl got reorganized into a world make sense. It makes more sense than any other theory i read on the subject before, since it would explain everything.

Anyway, no one knows about that. They don't know what happens if all the gates are destroied, they just know that it's safer not to do it.
It's just like shooting against an atomic bomb: will the bullet make no damage? will it cause the activaation charge to explode, but without triggering the atomic explosion? Will it make the activation charge explode, thus triggering the atomic explosion?
You don't know, but you don't bloody shot the damn thing, unless you want to win a darwin award.

Arrakiz

2011-05-04, 04:08 PM

Well except for the fact that Sanrl is, by definition, incapable of organisation- Yes that makes complete sense:smallwink:...

MesiDoomstalker

2011-05-04, 04:23 PM

Well except for the fact that Sanrl is, by definition, incapable of organisation- Yes that makes complete sense:smallwink:...

By definition of the GODS who we already know don't tell mortals the truth most of the time anyway, espcecially about the Snarl. Intentionally leaving out information (like not telling mortals about the Snarl) is still lieing.

zimmerwald1915

2011-05-04, 06:31 PM

The snarl is made from a bunch of snags in the threads of reality, the same threads the world is made of. Maybe Snarl got bored (or insert other motivation here) and decided to make himself a world.
That world is, of course, monotheistic, knowing no god but the Snarl, under whatever names it chooses to fashion for itself. It is a being created by deific frustration, and is presumably divine itself. Perhaps there exist prophets of the Snarl, who create different religions all following the same Snarl for the purpose of battling for the Snarl's amusement.

Absol197

2011-05-04, 11:17 PM

That world is, of course, monotheistic, knowing no god but the Snarl, under whatever names it chooses to fashion for itself. It is a being created by deific frustration, and is presumably divine itself. Perhaps there exist prophets of the Snarl, who create different religions all following the same Snarl for the purpose of battling for the Snarl's amusement.

That's just crazy talk. Whoever heard of a world like that? :smallsmile:

factotum

2011-05-05, 01:53 AM

By definition of the GODS who we already know don't tell mortals the truth most of the time anyway, espcecially about the Snarl.

It's my opinion the Gods have been lying all along about the Snarl's existence and that something else is responsible for the rifts. That story that Shojo told about the first world and the creation of the Snarl? The only beings who could have passed that information on are the Gods themselves, since they're the only ones who supposedly survived the destruction!

Deuterium Dawn

2011-05-05, 02:07 AM

zimmerwald1915

2011-05-05, 02:16 AM

Then what of Soon's wife?
Mijun? As far as we know she died at the claw of a scribbly-looking apparition or entity. That this entity was the Snarl could have been an erroneous assumption on the part of Soon and Lirian.

RunicLGB

2011-05-05, 02:40 AM

It's my opinion the Gods have been lying all along about the Snarl's existence and that something else is responsible for the rifts. That story that Shojo told about the first world and the creation of the Snarl? The only beings who could have passed that information on are the Gods themselves, since they're the only ones who supposedly survived the destruction!

That is an interesting point actually.

Its been pointed out several times that the gods have a general blackout on Snarl knowledge. So how the bleeding hell did the Order of the Scribble (and more specificly Soon kim) come across that knowledge for it to be passed down as the secret lore?

Now that can be lampshaded by saying they were epic level, which could have allowed them to straight get that knowledge from the gods, big secret or not.

As for Snarltopia: Define chaos on a cosmic scale. Then Define order. They aren't really all that different.

The universe around you is trillions of lightyears of nothingness pockmarked by the occasional ball of super heated gas, stars which after hundreds of billions of years grow to super massive size before exploding. The world you live on is made of a molten core which spins and churns generating forces felt all the way on the surface, where tectonic plates slide and shift. Where they clash mountains erupt, and where they diverge oceans are made. The world is always half frozen an half burning, half blindingly bright and half blindingly dark. Every year half the world dies and the other half is reborn.

Now did I just describe order, or Chaos? :smallwink:

theNater

2011-05-05, 02:46 AM

BlackestOfMages

2011-05-05, 02:50 AM

however, that this entity (which looks like a mass of evil threads), was stabbing out of these voids. so there's something killy they want locked away behind them anyway, due to people not like getting stabbed by claws.

anyway, I doubt that the snarl would be released imediatly, but the rifts were widening, so it'd break eventually

also, RunicLGB descibes it well about that other world, we've seen a sphere, that looks world-like. it could be ordered, it could be chaotic, it could be the world where everyone purpouse is reversed, and thus the Linear Guild are the heroes, and Xykon and redcloak were good. but we know nothing yet (though I ghope this is wrong, or else it'd get beyond confusing)

we also know that the snarl attacked a previous world. he could have put it back together out of boredom, something a lot of people who break things for amusement do.

Also, it'd be safe to assume, due to the knoledge of history of the snarl, that the gods told them. or a knoledge (religeon) check worked, as this is the OoTS world, so i doubt anyone else has that skll...

Shhalahr Windrider

2011-05-05, 06:19 AM

Well except for the fact that Sanrl is, by definition, incapable of organisation- Yes that makes complete sense:smallwink:...
Even if the Gods weren’t lying as suggested, that requires one to assume that the Snarl is incapable of changing or being changed. Perhaps for the first thirteen hundred years or so, the the Snarl was incapable of organization. Doesn’t necessarily mean that remains the case.

Its been pointed out several times that the gods have a general blackout on Snarl knowledge. So how the bleeding hell did the Order of the Scribble (and more specificly Soon kim) come across that knowledge for it to be passed down as the secret lore?
Speculaition
My guess is they got it from interrogating a previous Bearer of the Crimson Mantle. The Mantle is the one exception to the total blackout.

Of course, that doesn’t necessarily imply the information is accurate.

Now that can be lampshaded by saying they were epic level, which could have allowed them to straight get that knowledge from the gods, big secret or not.

Stops, probably. He doesn't know, and given RC's love of science and math it could easily be expained at a parabolic rate approaching zero (which means it will grow at a slower and slower rate, but never really stop for those who hate math.) Further the order isn't privy to RC's scientific analysis, and doesn't strike me as the kind of thing O-chull would find vitally important to tell.
And that all assumes it is a purely deterministic mathematical process that causes the expansion. If, say the Snarl is building the world using material from the edges of the rift, then the rate could vary depending on which rift the Snarl is taking material from at any time. Even if that isn’t the case, what evidence do we have that the rift won’t speed up in expansion again?

factotum

2011-05-05, 06:58 AM

My guess is they got it from interrogating a previous Bearer of the Crimson Mantle. The Mantle is the one exception to the total blackout.

Of course, that doesn’t necessarily imply the information is accurate.

If anything, that source is even LESS likely to be accurate than asking the Gods directly, because the Mantle has its power source in the Dark One--who simply didn't exist at the time all these events were supposedly happening.

Shhalahr Windrider

2011-05-05, 06:29 PM

If anything, that source is even LESS likely to be accurate than asking the Gods directly, because the Mantle has its power source in the Dark One--who simply didn't exist at the time all these events were supposedly happening.

But whereas the gods have motive to actively lie, The Dark One is telling what he believes to be the truth. At least that’s according to Redcloak’s story.

But if Redcloak’s story is true, which is more accurate? A primary source actively lying or evading, or a secondary source repeating what he found out in good faith? (Remember, that given the supposed motivations, the other gods would have been less likely to actively conceal information from The Dark One than they would be to mortals.)

factotum

2011-05-06, 01:53 AM

Most of the other gods consider the Dark One an upstart who really doesn't deserve to be a god. I think it's MORE likely they'd lie to him about this, not less!

Morgan Wick

2011-05-06, 02:43 AM

SoD
My guess is they got it from interrogating a previous Bearer of the Crimson Mantle. The Mantle is the one exception to the total blackout.

Page 43 of SoD shows the very first bearer of the Crimson Mantle forming an adventuring party to learn more about the rift that would be sealed by Lirian's Gate, only for the Order of the Scribble to wipe them out. Whether that supports or discredits your theory, I don't know; however, the story the Dark One has, or at least relays to Redcloak, regarding the Snarl aligns in important ways with the story from the Crayons of Time, suggesting the Scribblers got the story either from the gods (the Dark One's source) or from said original Mantle bearer.

As for the OP: Redcloak allows Xykon to think the Snarl can be controlled using magic, and my impression had been that Xykon thinks the Snarl is a monster he can direct towards any enemy he comes across, able to be led out of the gate in its entirety. In actuality, even if the Snarl could leave one of the rifts - with or without the Gate - it probably couldn't be led to do so. For his part, the Dark One intends to move a Gate to the Upper Planes to blackmail the gods into giving goblinkind a fairer shake; a panel of SoD depicts it reaching out and slaughtering some of Thor's little helpers, implying the danger isn't in just letting the Snarl run amok in the upper planes. However, Redcloak also indicates that if he messes up, "there's a good chance [the Snarl] will destroy the world", a sentiment I believe he repeats in the online comic.

Also worth noting that Redcloak expects the Snarl to "reach[] out and consum[e] those nearby" (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0545.html) once Soon's Gate is destroyed, and speculates that the other gates prevent the Snarl from noticing the unsealed rifts.

Shhalahr Windrider

2011-05-07, 10:14 AM

Most of the other gods consider the Dark One an upstart who really doesn't deserve to be a god. I think it's MORE likely they'd lie to him about this, not less!

SoD
What about the Gods that don’t consider him an upstart. Loki and Tiamat are shown lobbying on the Dark One’s behalf. If we take the panel showing the decision to tell the Dark One about the Snarl at face value, one would expect Rat at the very least to be fairly truthful.

factotum

2011-05-07, 02:36 PM

But that's the problem--I don't take any of that at face value! Everything we know about the Snarl and the Dark One is from stories told by people who are at least one step removed from the events in question.

As for Rat and the others telling the truth--they're evil gods, as far as we know. If lying to another god furthers their ends they'll do it in a nonexistent divine heartbeat.

Morgan Wick

2011-05-07, 09:08 PM

But that's the problem--I don't take any of that at face value! Everything we know about the Snarl and the Dark One is from stories told by people who are at least one step removed from the events in question.

I get the sense that Redcloak isn't distorting anything he gets from the Dark One, for various reasons including motivation to mislead Xykon (aside from "you can use the Snarl to take over the world", which really, he lets Xykon believe rather than actively lie to him about) and the nature of the Crimson Mantle. Now, it's fairly obvious that the Dark One has every motivation in the world to lie to Redcloak, but for all intents and purposes I consider that story to come from the Dark One himself.

ORione

2011-05-07, 10:33 PM

Morgan Wick

2011-05-08, 12:09 AM

SoDAlso worth noting: The stories told about what unmade Mijung and what unmade the cleric of the Dark One align too much, despite coming from completely different sources, for there not to be anything to them.

zimmerwald1915

2011-05-08, 01:12 AM

I get the sense that Redcloak isn't distorting anything he gets from the Dark One, for various reasons including motivation to mislead Xykon (aside from "you can use the Snarl to take over the world", which really, he lets Xykon believe rather than actively lie to him about) and the nature of the Crimson Mantle. Now, it's fairly obvious that the Dark One has every motivation in the world to lie to Redcloak, but for all intents and purposes I consider that story to come from the Dark One himself.
That's part of the problem though. Unlike Shojo, Redcloak admitted on-panel to lying (by omission) about something related to his story. Shojo, on the other hand, was consistent enough that he was able to tell the story twice that we know of and not be called out on a lie or mistake by Roy, who heard it both times.

Of course, Shojo's a lying liar who lies about other things, so he's not a reliable source either.

Morgan Wick

2011-05-08, 11:13 PM

That's part of the problem though. Unlike Shojo, Redcloak admitted on-panel to lying (by omission) about something related to his story. Shojo, on the other hand, was consistent enough that he was able to tell the story twice that we know of and not be called out on a lie or mistake by Roy, who heard it both times.

Of course, Shojo's a lying liar who lies about other things, so he's not a reliable source either.

Factotum claimed that everything we've heard about the Snarl and the Dark One has come a couple levels removed from the events themselves. It doesn't get much less removed than straight from the horse's mouth.

factotum

2011-05-09, 01:45 AM

Factotum claimed that everything we've heard about the Snarl and the Dark One has come a couple levels removed from the events themselves. It doesn't get much less removed than straight from the horse's mouth.

How is either Redcloak or Shojo "straight from the horse's mouth"? You're saying they were personally present when the Snarl destroyed World #1, somehow survived that, and also survived the thousand or so years World #2 has existed since? :smallconfused:

Ron Miel

2011-05-09, 04:35 AM

This just occurred to me while reading some theories involving the final gate. Everyone seems to think that if the final gate is destroyed the Snarl will be able to leave, but as I recall, even with all the gates open the Snarl still can't escape, only able to snatch stuff very close by. Am I right? Or did I miss something that means the Snarl would be unleashed on the planet will the gates destroyed?

Okay, getting back to the OP, consider the lore of the Sapphire Guild.

1) http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0275.html

The rifts are of comparatively recent origin. They did not appear for more than a thousand years after the World's creation.

2) http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0276.html

The rifts can be fixed, only if the gods unmake the world. If the rifts deteriorate, the gods might feel they have no other choice.

3) http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0278.html

should all 5 gates be destroyed, the snarl might be released to unmake the world.

So there are 2 reasons to fear. Either the gods might unmake the world, in order to rebuild it, or else the Snarl might get free and destroy the world.

It appears, though, that their information is not 100% accurate. Somewhere along the line, they have been misinformed.

TimeWizard

2011-05-09, 06:30 AM

-snip-
They all just assume the Snarl CAN be controlled somehow

Redcloak doesn't plan on controlling a released Snarl. His plan is to ....Using control of the gates as a hostage- either the gods help the goblins or he detonates and the Dark One can have a hand in reforming the world where goblins are equal. He is banking on the fact that the gods beat the snarl once and will be able to do so again. Only Blackwing and V know about the Other World, unless he told the Order off-panel, which is unlikely for major plot information.

zimmerwald1915

2011-05-09, 07:04 AM

Redcloak doesn't plan on controlling a released Snarl. His plan is to ....Using control of the gates as a hostage- either the gods help the goblins or he detonates and the Dark One can have a hand in reforming the world where goblins are equal. He is banking on the fact that the gods beat the snarl once and will be able to do so again. Only Blackwing and V know about the Other World, unless he told the Order off-panel, which is unlikely for major plot information.
V states he will tell the rest of the Order when they are accustomed to Blackwing's presence and accept his existence. They are not yet, and have not yet, so it's safe to assume she has not yet.

MoonCat

2011-05-09, 12:46 PM

Okay, getting back to the OP.

:smallwink:

So there are 2 reasons to fear. Either the gods might unmake the world, in order to rebuild it, or else the Snarl might get free and destroy the world.

Although it does appear to be assumed that the world would be destroyed, they might just end up with enormous holes that are dangerous to live near.

It appears, though, that their information is not 100% accurate. Somewhere along the line, they have been misinformed.

Or someone is lying, which was hinted in a books commentary.

Morgan Wick

2011-05-09, 08:49 PM

How is either Redcloak or Shojo "straight from the horse's mouth"? You're saying they were personally present when the Snarl destroyed World #1, somehow survived that, and also survived the thousand or so years World #2 has existed since? :smallconfused:

You said the Snarl or the Dark One. My first post claimed that, for all intents and purposes, I consider the story Redcloak relates to come directly from the Dark One. Hence, straight from the horse's mouth, regardless of any distortion he might have applied to it.

Shhalahr Windrider

2011-05-09, 09:36 PM

1) http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0275.html

The rifts are of comparatively recent origin. They did not appear for more than a thousand years after the World's creation.
Nitpick: They were not discovered and identified until well over a thousand years after the World’s creation. Says nothing about how old they actually are.

For all we know, the first rift opened just a day after the creation of world 2.0, but spent the next 900 years only a few atoms in diameter before beginning to expand. Who’s gonna notice that?

MoonCat

2011-05-09, 10:26 PM

For all we know, the first rift opened just a day after the creation of world 2.0, but spent the next 900 years only a few atoms in diameter before beginning to expand. Who’s gonna notice that?

A bacterium that just had it's soul destroyed?

factotum

2011-05-10, 01:28 AM

You said the Snarl or the Dark One. My first post claimed that, for all intents and purposes, I consider the story Redcloak relates to come directly from the Dark One. Hence, straight from the horse's mouth, regardless of any distortion he might have applied to it.

You need to look up what "straight from the horse's mouth" means, I think. If it's had distortion applied to it by Redcloak then it's not straight from the horse's mouth. In addition, as I've said already, the Dark One was not present for any of these events either, because he was created sometime during World #2--so that makes Redcloak's story THIRD hand, at least where it comes to the parts about the Snarl; it was told by the other gods to the Dark One, and then by the Dark One to Redcloak.

Vorthon

2011-05-10, 11:30 AM

I happened to notice that the 'world-within-the-world' appears to be in the midst of an ice age (I mean, look at the polar ice-caps on that thing! They're kraahking huge! :P), so the Snarl may very well have remade itself into a world, albeit one with very rapid (Relatively speaking) swings in global climate.

Ron Miel

2011-05-10, 06:02 PM

Nitpick: They were not discovered and identified until well over a thousand years after the World’s creation. Says nothing about how old they actually are.

For all we know, the first rift opened just a day after the creation of world 2.0, but spent the next 900 years only a few atoms in diameter before beginning to expand. Who’s gonna notice that?

Shojo talks about the holes appearing. It seems as if its something new, as far as he knows. And in the next strip, Lirian investigates wildlife that have been disappearing. It seems as if this, too, is something new, rather than wildlife vanishing for many years.

Granted that Shojo's information is not totally accurate. But based on what he said, they were new 66 years ago.

Commander672

2011-05-10, 08:20 PM

It's just like shooting against an atomic bomb: will the bullet make no damage? will it cause the activaation charge to explode, but without triggering the atomic explosion? Will it make the activation charge explode, thus triggering the atomic explosion?
You don't know, but you don't bloody shot the damn thing, unless you want to win a darwin award.

We know exacly what will happen if you shoot a nuke: Nothing.

Nukes, and by extention hydrogen bombs all work on the principle of shooting a wad of tine nuetrons (Forgive any inaccuracies it's been a while) into a group of unstable molocules, spilting them apart into more neutrons that in turn hit more atoms. The release in energy is what creates an explosion.

It takes a very precise mechine to do this. No random bullet or even blunt force will set off a nuke. In fact, a better term than "Nuclear Bomb" is "Nuclear device" becouse unlike most bombs which rely on oxidation (The bondage of molocules to oxygen) , Nukes rely on splitting the atoms themselves.

Deuterium Dawn

2011-05-10, 09:02 PM

We know exacly what will happen if you shoot a nuke: Nothing.

Nukes, and by extention hydrogen bombs all work on the principle of shooting a wad of tine nuetrons (Forgive any inaccuracies it's been a while) into a group of unstable molocules, spilting them apart into more neutrons that in turn hit more atoms. The release in energy is what creates an explosion.

It takes a very precise mechine to do this. No random bullet or even blunt force will set off a nuke. In fact, a better term than "Nuclear Bomb" is "Nuclear device" becouse unlike most bombs which rely on oxidation (The bondage of molocules to oxygen) , Nukes rely on splitting the atoms themselves.

Technicalities aside, I think his point stands.

Shhalahr Windrider

2011-05-10, 10:06 PM

Shojo talks about the holes appearing. It seems as if its something new, as far as he knows. And in the next strip, Lirian investigates wildlife that have been disappearing. It seems as if this, too, is something new, rather than wildlife vanishing for many years.
What’s new isn’t necessarily the rift, but the rift being large enough for disappearing wildlife to be noticeable. Or the Snarl finally noticing this particular rift.

Even if that rift is new, that doesn’t mean the others are as well. Of note is that Lirian’s rift appears to be the most accessible.

Ancalagon

2011-05-11, 04:15 AM

Technicalities aside, I think his point stands.

If any given metaphor or analogy has a basic flaw so deep that it completely voids the use of the metaphor or analogy for this specifc case it is not a "technicality" you can easily dismiss.

Innis Cabal

2011-05-11, 04:24 AM

But that's the problem--I don't take any of that at face value! Everything we know about the Snarl and the Dark One is from stories told by people who are at least one step removed from the events in question.

Except we do have evidence from the source at least on the Dark One. Jirix. He came back with a message specifically from The Dark One to Redcloak.

Silver Swift

2011-05-11, 06:01 AM

If any given metaphor or analogy has a basic flaw so deep that it completely voids the use of the metaphor or analogy for this specifc case it is not a "technicality" you can easily dismiss.

The analogy may be flawed, but his point still stands. If you have something dangerous that could cause very bad things to happen if handled the wrong way and you have some event that may or may not constitute 'handling it the wrong way' then you should probably make sure that event doesn't happen.

Also, it has always been my understanding that an atomic bomb is basically two pieces of radioactive material that are somehow being kept apart until forced together by a regular explosion, after which nature basically does the rest (putting large enough pieces of radioactive material in a small enough space causes an explosion). If this is indeed how nukes work then shooting it could set of the regular explosion, causing the nuke to go off. Bottom line: I wouldn't shoot a nuke :smallwink: .

factotum

2011-05-11, 06:23 AM

Except we do have evidence from the source at least on the Dark One. Jirix. He came back with a message specifically from The Dark One to Redcloak.

And the content of that message was entirely "Don't screw this up". Could have been referring to *anything*--he could even have been saying "You've got yourself a nice goblin country now, don't screw that up by following that old Plan I gave you!". Not to mention that, as I've now mentioned TWICE, the Dark One's own information is second hand because he wasn't around when the events of the Snarl supposedly happened.

ORione

2011-05-11, 10:12 AM

And the content of that message was entirely "Don't screw this up". Could have been referring to *anything*--he could even have been saying "You've got yourself a nice goblin country now, don't screw that up by following that old Plan I gave you!". Not to mention that, as I've now mentioned TWICE, the Dark One's own information is second hand because he wasn't around when the events of the Snarl supposedly happened.

Jirix said that The Dark One was talking about The Plan. Maybe he misunderstood, but maybe not. If The Dark One wanted Redcloak to forget about The Plan, he should've been more specific.

zimmerwald1915

2011-05-11, 10:52 AM

Also, it has always been my understanding that an atomic bomb is basically two pieces of radioactive material that are somehow being kept apart until forced together by a regular explosion, after which nature basically does the rest (putting large enough pieces of radioactive material in a small enough space causes an explosion). If this is indeed how nukes work then shooting it could set of the regular explosion, causing the nuke to go off. Bottom line: I wouldn't shoot a nuke :smallwink: .
Atomic bombs differ in design based on the fissionable material used to power the nuclear reaction. Uranium bombs consist of a U-235 slug that is fired into a larger mass of U-235, creating a chain fission reaction. Plutonium bombs consist of a single mass of plutonium, which is then compressed by conventional explosives until the density is high enough that a chain reaction can begin. Shooting an atomic bomb wouldn't do much in either case, unless by some fluke you set off all the plutonium bomb's lenses (the packets of conventional explosives) at once.

Shooting a hydrogen bomb would probably cause the hydrogen to either escape or burn, but would also not start up a chain fusion reaction.

Virtu

2011-05-11, 07:07 PM

The world inside the Rift was our own.

Our physicists have are beginning to learn of the Snarl. Heard of "String Theory"? They just aren't aware of the more sinister implications yet.

EDIT ---

On a more serious, perhaps out-there note, what if the Dark One has already worked out a deal with the Snarl, and the world inside the rift was created by the Dark One for the goblins?

I realize the difficulty, if near impossibility of his affecting a truce with the Snarl, but he would definitely have the motive. The Dark One seems to be a god of opportunism and adaptability. Even if he rejected the idea, I don't think it'd be too out there for it to have crossed his mind.

factotum

2011-05-12, 01:56 AM

I realize the difficulty, if near impossibility of his affecting a truce with the Snarl, but he would definitely have the motive.

Near impossibility? Scratch the "near" there--if the Snarl is everything it's been said to be (and I've mentioned my doubts about that often enough in this thread, but let's leave that alone for the moment) then it's an essentially mindless manifestation of rage and chaos. You don't make truces with something like that!

Dr.Epic

2011-05-12, 02:57 AM

I have a feeling it'll be the same as the first: a large stronghold filled with various monsters the Order has to battle through.

BecauseICan

2011-05-13, 06:05 PM

Oh dear, nuclear misunderstandings galore.

zimmerwald1915 is the only person who actually seems to understand any of the technical aspects.

Here's some of the basics:

"Radioactive" is not the same as "fissionable," although all the fissionable elements I know of are radioactive. To add to the confusion, we also have "fusable" elements, which in general are not radioactive.

Only fissionable or fusable elements (e.g. specific *types* of Uranium of Plutonium for fission, and various types of Hydrogen/Lithium for fusion) can conceivably be turned into a bomb that explodes in anything short of a humans lifetime.

Some radioactive elements are dangerous when you're around them, depending on the type. Most of the long-term danger comes from having them stuck inside your body or from seriously large external doses. On the other hand, there are plenty of other hazards (especially chemical) that are just as or more dangerous. "Radiation" (baring fission bombs) isn't uniquely dangerous. Somehow, though, nuclear problems always get the press.

The odds of having a Hydrogen bomb explode when you shoot at it is so small, I doubt anybody has ever realistically calculated the odds. I'll just say that if you threatened to shoot me or to shoot a hydrogen bomb, I wouldn't even have to think to choose the bomb. Essentially the same thing can be said for plutonium fusion bombs. They are fine-tuned pieces of equipment, and they are usually *designed* to be hard to set off.

A Uranium bomb is somewhat easier to design and build, and the underlying physics is less sensitive to getting things exactly right. However, the odds are still very small that anything would happen---just hitting the fissionable core wouldn't be enough; it's not an unstable chemical explosive. You'd have to somehow trigger the firing mechanism with a gun and get the two uranium pieces to shoot together quickly. This is kind of like shooting at your car to get the window to open mechanically. It might happen.

RunicLGB

2011-05-13, 11:28 PM

I think that the Nuke metaphor has been taken entirely too far, and has so diverged from the intent (which was basically someone trying to say "better safe than sorry") that I think its time to stop.

BecauseICan

2011-05-16, 05:55 PM

I think that the Nuke metaphor has been taken entirely too far, and has so diverged from the intent (which was basically someone trying to say "better safe than sorry") that I think its time to stop.

Yeah, but the irony is because, AFAWK, destroying the last gate is much, much more dangerous than shooting a gun at any type of nuclear weapon!

Qwertystop

2011-05-17, 07:00 PM

The world inside the Rift was our own.

Our physicists have are beginning to learn of the Snarl. Heard of "String Theory"? They just aren't aware of the more sinister implications yet.

May I sig?

Lord Raziere

2011-05-19, 09:14 AM

wait.....previous world "destroyed".......all the Greek gods "dead" a thing that can somehow "kill" Gods....

the Greek gods are not dead, they are merely sealed away and the Snarl is a lie.....

the Dark One didn't make a deal with the the Snarl, he made a deal with Greek Gods who for some reason got into a problem with the others that destroyed the previous world, and the Greek Gods have made a world for all the goblins....

it all adds up. the Snarl doesn't exist, why would a being of pure Chaos target a specific Pantheon? why not kill a god there then a god there...