Cog
2011-05-04, 02:46 PM
Pulled from the RAW discussion thread:
Q96: If for some reason you have a negative CL, can you still cast a spell or activate a spell-like ability that has a fixed duration? For example, can you cast Endure Elements at CL -3, since its duration is listed as 24 hours?
A 96:
No. As per the SRD:
You can cast a spell at a lower caster level than normal, but the caster level you choose must be high enough for you to cast the spell in question, and all level-dependent features must be based on the same caster level.
A 96, clarification
If he isn't choosing to cast that spell at a lower CL, then that clause would not apply.
It can be parsed as:
"You can cast a spell at a lower caster level than normal, but if you choose to do so,the caster level you choose must be high enough for you to cast the spell in question..."
A) The character is choosing to cast.
B) The character is casting at less than the required level.
Therefore:
C) The character is choosing to cast at less than the required level.
As choosing to cast at a lower caster level is a choice which is available at all times, choosing to not take advantage of that ability is itself a choice. Every time a spellcaster casts a spell, they are choosing what caster level to cast at. That this choice is rarely stated and is usually assumed to be at full CL does not make it any less of a choice.
A 96, Clarification
The caster is still choosing the CL at which they cast the spell, it's just that the maximum CL they can choose has been restricted due to feat choice or some other effect. Since there is a choice to cast a spell at a lower CL, it follows that casting a spell at Full CL is a choice as well (even if Full CL has been restricted for some reason). Compare the CL available to the CL required to normally cast the spell/SLA, if available CL is lower, the spell/SLA cannot be cast.
Q 98
Is the minimum CL to cast a spell given anywhere in the RAW?
A 98:
The answer is on the Spells Per Day table given with the appropriate spellcasting class, and is sometimes modified by feats such as Precocious Apprentice.
A 98, clarification That specifies spells by class level, which is often, but not always equal to caster level. Can you find somewhere that they are tied directly together? Otherwise, there are plenty of abilities, such as Wild Magic, Spellgifted, and Mage Slayer, which would reduce the "normal" caster level of a spell otherwise available to a character of that class level.
A 98 continued:
The line right above the one I quoted earlier reinforces the connection between class level and caster level. I am aware of no other source for that information; if you choose to disregard it, then the entire quote becomes meaningless. Yes, there are abilities which can potentially leave you unable to cast certain levels of spells in return for other benefits.
A 98, Clarification
I don't think you'll find a line specifying it, as I think the authors probably believed there was sufficient clarity in what they wrote as to what the minimum required Caster Level is to cast a spell.
There is evidence of intent for a minimum caster level required to cast a spell. From the Magic Items section of the SRD:
If a spell could be cast at Caster Level -54, this text would presumably be pointless. No?
If true, you could actually create infinite sums of gold for yourself since the process of creating a Potion of Endure Elements with a CL of -100 would cost you -2,500gp. The potion would pay you to create it.
A96, continued: In case I'm missing any factors, let me phrase this more directly--can a 6th-level character with Mage Slayer & Pierce Magical Protection (Complete Arcane) activate the Animal Devotion feat (Complete Champion)?
His CL is -2, so I'm not too optimistic.
A 96 continued:
Yes. Animal Devotion has nothing whatsoever to do with caster level.
A96, continued:
That's tough. Devotion feats specify that they are SLAs with a CL equal to character level unless otherwise specified. Animal Devotion (unlike say, Knowledge Devotion) doesn't specify otherwise. With that said, it also doesn't mimic any particular spell, so there's no way of knowing what the normal caster level would be. With that said, I think it comes down to DM adjudication. If I was the DM, I would probably rule that an SLA that doesn't duplicate a spell effect would require at least a Caster Level of 1.
A96 discussion: What about the hawk's flight option, which specifically replicates overland flight? Is there a different minimum CL for that?
A 96 etc:
SLAs follow the rules for spells except for specific conditions, so the chosen caster level rule is in. The question becomes, what's the minimum CL? There's an order for which spell list you look at to determine how to treat an SLA, but obviously Animal Devotion is on none of those lists. In the case of unique SLAs like that, rules are given in the ability; Animal Devotion does not give a minimum CL, and so you should be free to use it at a CL of -2.
Hawk's Flight isn't an Overland Flight SLA; it merely references the rules for Overland Flight as part of the description of the ability, and then proceeds to modify those rules.
This is dragging on, though. I'll get a thread started, gimme a sec.
Okay, maybe a couple seconds. Have at it!
Q96: If for some reason you have a negative CL, can you still cast a spell or activate a spell-like ability that has a fixed duration? For example, can you cast Endure Elements at CL -3, since its duration is listed as 24 hours?
A 96:
No. As per the SRD:
You can cast a spell at a lower caster level than normal, but the caster level you choose must be high enough for you to cast the spell in question, and all level-dependent features must be based on the same caster level.
A 96, clarification
If he isn't choosing to cast that spell at a lower CL, then that clause would not apply.
It can be parsed as:
"You can cast a spell at a lower caster level than normal, but if you choose to do so,the caster level you choose must be high enough for you to cast the spell in question..."
A) The character is choosing to cast.
B) The character is casting at less than the required level.
Therefore:
C) The character is choosing to cast at less than the required level.
As choosing to cast at a lower caster level is a choice which is available at all times, choosing to not take advantage of that ability is itself a choice. Every time a spellcaster casts a spell, they are choosing what caster level to cast at. That this choice is rarely stated and is usually assumed to be at full CL does not make it any less of a choice.
A 96, Clarification
The caster is still choosing the CL at which they cast the spell, it's just that the maximum CL they can choose has been restricted due to feat choice or some other effect. Since there is a choice to cast a spell at a lower CL, it follows that casting a spell at Full CL is a choice as well (even if Full CL has been restricted for some reason). Compare the CL available to the CL required to normally cast the spell/SLA, if available CL is lower, the spell/SLA cannot be cast.
Q 98
Is the minimum CL to cast a spell given anywhere in the RAW?
A 98:
The answer is on the Spells Per Day table given with the appropriate spellcasting class, and is sometimes modified by feats such as Precocious Apprentice.
A 98, clarification That specifies spells by class level, which is often, but not always equal to caster level. Can you find somewhere that they are tied directly together? Otherwise, there are plenty of abilities, such as Wild Magic, Spellgifted, and Mage Slayer, which would reduce the "normal" caster level of a spell otherwise available to a character of that class level.
A 98 continued:
The line right above the one I quoted earlier reinforces the connection between class level and caster level. I am aware of no other source for that information; if you choose to disregard it, then the entire quote becomes meaningless. Yes, there are abilities which can potentially leave you unable to cast certain levels of spells in return for other benefits.
A 98, Clarification
I don't think you'll find a line specifying it, as I think the authors probably believed there was sufficient clarity in what they wrote as to what the minimum required Caster Level is to cast a spell.
There is evidence of intent for a minimum caster level required to cast a spell. From the Magic Items section of the SRD:
If a spell could be cast at Caster Level -54, this text would presumably be pointless. No?
If true, you could actually create infinite sums of gold for yourself since the process of creating a Potion of Endure Elements with a CL of -100 would cost you -2,500gp. The potion would pay you to create it.
A96, continued: In case I'm missing any factors, let me phrase this more directly--can a 6th-level character with Mage Slayer & Pierce Magical Protection (Complete Arcane) activate the Animal Devotion feat (Complete Champion)?
His CL is -2, so I'm not too optimistic.
A 96 continued:
Yes. Animal Devotion has nothing whatsoever to do with caster level.
A96, continued:
That's tough. Devotion feats specify that they are SLAs with a CL equal to character level unless otherwise specified. Animal Devotion (unlike say, Knowledge Devotion) doesn't specify otherwise. With that said, it also doesn't mimic any particular spell, so there's no way of knowing what the normal caster level would be. With that said, I think it comes down to DM adjudication. If I was the DM, I would probably rule that an SLA that doesn't duplicate a spell effect would require at least a Caster Level of 1.
A96 discussion: What about the hawk's flight option, which specifically replicates overland flight? Is there a different minimum CL for that?
A 96 etc:
SLAs follow the rules for spells except for specific conditions, so the chosen caster level rule is in. The question becomes, what's the minimum CL? There's an order for which spell list you look at to determine how to treat an SLA, but obviously Animal Devotion is on none of those lists. In the case of unique SLAs like that, rules are given in the ability; Animal Devotion does not give a minimum CL, and so you should be free to use it at a CL of -2.
Hawk's Flight isn't an Overland Flight SLA; it merely references the rules for Overland Flight as part of the description of the ability, and then proceeds to modify those rules.
This is dragging on, though. I'll get a thread started, gimme a sec.
Okay, maybe a couple seconds. Have at it!