Wizard Bonus Feat Replacements and Additions

[Elric VIII]

I am interested in the UA variant of Wizard that trades Scribe Scroll and the normal Wizard feat list for a bonus Fighter feat at 1, 5, 10, 15, and 20.

The exact wording from the SRD is:

Wizard
Some wizards trade their knowledge of magic and craft to improve their combat prowess.

Gain
Bonus feat list (as fighter; bonus feats gained at 1st level and every five levels as wizard).

Lose
Scribe Scroll, wizard bonus feat list.

Now, how does this interact with additions to the bonus feat list?

My specific examples are:

Nexus Method is a feat says, "Add the following to the list of feats you may select as a bonus Wizard feat..."

The feat Cloudy Conjuration says, "A conjurer can select this feat as a Wizard bonus feat."

Assuming that I have elected to take the above ACF, do either the feats listed by Nexus Method or the feat Cloudy Conjuration remain valid choices for Wizard bonus feats?

[herrhauptmann]

Well wizards used to have a very specific list for their bonus feats. Initially metamagic and item creation feats. That's been expanded to include reserve feats, right?

Now trade that list, and swap it with the fighter bonus feat list. Now at level 1,5,10,15,20, you can select a feat that a fighter could use, though you still need to meet the prereqs.
So your ftr feat wizard wants to take a metamagic feat or something else off of the standard wizard bonus feat list? He's got to wait until level 3,6,9 etc.

edit:
Lines like "Add the following to the list of feats you may select as a bonus Wizard feat..." are written with respect to the standard player class, not alternate class features.

[Elric VIII]

Well wizards used to have a very specific list for their bonus feats. Initially metamagic and item creation feats. That's been expanded to include reserve feats, right?

Now trade that list, and swap it with the fighter bonus feat list. Now at level 1,5,10,15,20, you can select a feat that a fighter could use, though you still need to meet the prereqs.
So your ftr feat wizard wants to take a metamagic feat or something else off of the standard wizard bonus feat list? He's got to wait until level 3,6,9 etc.

This makes sense, and I was prepared for the worst, anyway.



edit:
Lines like "Add the following to the list of feats you may select as a bonus Wizard feat..." are written with respect to the standard player class, not alternate class features.

It seems that taking a feat that adds to your list would be unaffected by the items in the current list. Is there any solid evidence to support this particular point of view?

[herrhauptmann]

Common sense?

The feats you mentioned add to the standard wizard bonus feat list. The feat list that you've swapped out to take fighter feats.
You now draw from fighter bonus feat list, and fighters don't get those two as a bonus feat.

[Elric VIII]

Common sense?

The feats you mentioned add to the standard wizard bonus feat list. The feat list that you've swapped out to take fighter feats.
You now draw from fighter bonus feat list, and fighters don't get those two as a bonus feat.

Nexus Methos isn't a bonus feat. What it does, among other things, is say that you may take certain other feats as bonus feats. I agree with you about Cloudy Conjuration, et al.

[herrhauptmann]

What book is that nexus one in?

[Elric VIII]

What book is that nexus one in?

Dragon Magazine 319, but what I posted was the relevant part, verbatum. Also, it's Nexus Method, I mistyped in the last post, so Google results may not have given you anything.

[tyckspoon]

Dragon Magazine 319, but what I posted was the relevant part, verbatum. Also, it's Nexus Method, I mistyped in the last post, so Google results may not have given you anything.

It's still referencing your Wizard Bonus Feat list, which you no longer have. You have the Fighter Bonus Feat list, you just access it on the same schedule as Wizard Bonus Feats. If it's not available as a [Fighter] feat, the ACF'd Wizard can't pick it as a bonus. Seems pretty clear, as ACF alterations go- Gain: Bonus Feats as Fighter, Lose: Wizard Bonus Feat list. Once you choose that ACF, just ignore everything that deals with Wizard Bonus Feats. They're no longer relevant to you.

[Elric VIII]

It's still referencing your Wizard Bonus Feat list, which you no longer have. You have the Fighter Bonus Feat list, you just access it on the same schedule as Wizard Bonus Feats. If it's not available as a [Fighter] feat, the ACF'd Wizard can't pick it as a bonus. Seems pretty clear, as ACF alterations go- Gain: Bonus Feats as Fighter, Lose: Wizard Bonus Feat list. Once you choose that ACF, just ignore everything that deals with Wizard Bonus Feats. They're no longer relevant to you.

Ok, I see what you mean, now. I was confused by the fact that the variant specifically meantions taht the list is what changed. I had thought that it altered the options of an existing class feature rather than giving you a different one (i.e. adding Fighter feats to the Wizard list and just removing the feats that were originally there).

[HalfDragonCube]

If you have Scribe Scroll from another source, then the fighter feat variant can get you Improved Initiative, which is very useful in certain circumstances. A Wizard/Archivist (which I keep mentioning in posts because they are just so cool) does this well.

Since you are an arcane caster, chances are you will not be wearing much armour, so you put points into Dex to offset this. Add in Improved Initiative, and you will be likely to act first. Add in spells like Colour Spray or Cloudkill as icing, and you might start one-shotting encounters.

[Elric VIII]

If you have Scribe Scroll from another source, then the fighter feat variant can get you Improved Initiative, which is very useful in certain circumstances. A Wizard/Archivist (which I keep mentioning in posts because they are just so cool) does this well.

Since you are an arcane caster, chances are you will not be wearing much armour, so you put points into Dex to offset this. Add in Improved Initiative, and you will be likely to act first. Add in spells like Colour Spray or Cloudkill as icing, and you might start one-shotting encounters.

Well, I don't really need Scribe Scroll, it doesn't seem like the most useful item creation feat (especially when I can just summon monsters with utility spells). Or are you saying that I can use the Fighter bonus feat ACF to trade away one instance of Scribe Scroll and one of the UA ACFs to trade away the other?

[herrhauptmann]

Well, I don't really need Scribe Scroll, it doesn't seem like the most useful item creation feat (especially when I can just summon monsters with utility spells). Or are you saying that I can use the Fighter bonus feat ACF to trade away one instance of Scribe Scroll and one of the UA ACFs to trade away the other?

As a single classed character, you can't trade away scribe scroll (or any other class feature) twice.
But as a wizard you can trade away scribe scroll as part of your fighter feat deal.
And if you have something else (another class or PrC) which grants scribe scroll, you might be able to trade THAT away as well.
I also don't think you can trade scribe scroll+wiz bonus feat list for fighter feat list, then take Scribe Scroll as a regular feat, and trade THAT away for a different class feature as well.

[Elric VIII]

As a single classed character, you can't trade away scribe scroll (or any other class feature) twice.
But as a wizard you can trade away scribe scroll as part of your fighter feat deal.
And if you have something else (another class or PrC) which grants scribe scroll, you might be able to trade THAT away as well.
I also don't think you can trade scribe scroll+wiz bonus feat list for fighter feat list, then take Scribe Scroll as a regular feat, and trade THAT away for a different class feature as well.

Yeah, that definately gets into a grey area. It doesn't matter, since the other trading of Scribe Scroll was to get Augmented Summoning, so I'll just take the feat normally.