Exactly Wrong (3.5 feats, flaws, and traits)

[Qwertystop]

I'm making a few feats that focus on failing perfectly at doing something something fairly fundamental. I currently have one, and welcome both critiques on it and suggestions for others.

Upside-Down
TRAIT
Requirements: You cannot take this trait if you have a racial fly (or similar) move speed with perfect maneuverability.
You are affected by gravity in a way exactly opposite to most people. While most people fall down, and pretty much stay on the ground without effort, you fall toward ceilings. This is an Extraordinary effect. The effect will hold up to your moderate load in carried equipment. If you are carrying the absolute minimum amount of weight to count as a heavy load, you (and the equipment) are not affected by gravity in any way, though your own senses continue telling you that "down" is where most people have "up". You do not gain a fly speed, but you can be pushed around through the air as thought you had no weight. If you carry more than the minimum heavy load, you fall to the ground, and your weight is considered to be equal to what you are carrying minus your moderate load. Your sense of balance continues to tell you the reversed "up' and "down', however, so you incur a -4 to Dexterity, and an additional -2 to Reflex saves, if trying to act in what, to you, is an upside-down direction.
People are born with this trait. For the first month after birth, they are under an effect identical to that of a Feather Fall spell.


Occasionally Not
FLAW
Most people always are, but occasionally you are not.
Immediately before your place in initiative, roll 1d3. On a 3, you cease to exist until your turn next comes up, at which point you reappear, and take actions as usual. You do not roll on the turn that you reappear. If you are in the middle of an action that takes more than one round to complete, treat it as though you stopped for that one round. If you have 10 or more HD, you are powerful enough that you may leave an afterimage of yourself when disappearing. Instead of rolling 1d3, roll 1d6. On a 5, you will cease to exist as above. On a 6, however, you leave behind a slightly translucent image of yourself, frozen in the exact position you were in when you disappeared. Treat this as a Silent Image spell with a caster level equal to your HD, and a duration of "until you reappear".
NOTE: when out of combat, it is advised simply to say that the character with this feat seems to be flickering, vanishing for a few seconds then reappearing for a bit, instead of rolling every 6 seconds.


Multi-Cultural
TRAIT
Whether it be a densely populated metropolis or just an open, free-thinking society, you were raised in an environment that exposed you to many languages at a very young age. You can understand all commonly spoken languages easily (as with the Comprehend Languages) spell, but when you try to speak, it comes out as a garbled mix of your known languages.

Whenever you try to speak, roll d%. If the result is greater than 80, you are able to form a somewhat coherent message when you speak. Otherwise, you babble incoherently in a garbled mix of languages.

A character who has Comprehend Languages can understand somebody with the Multi-Cultural trait, but will also hear that they are speaking a mix of languages when they speak.
-----------------
Questions? Comments? Suggestions for more?

[Silva Stormrage]

Just a critique maybe these should be flaws? So that the don't completely screw over a player that chooses them?

[Qwertystop]

Just a critique maybe these should be flaws? So that the don't completely screw over a player that chooses them?

Well, a few questions about this:
One: Why would a player choosing it not know what they are getting into?
Two: What about this is worse than normal gravity? It may not be better in some situations, but it's not exactly bad. On the one hand, you could get past many traps and sneak into places unnoticed, on the other, it's hard to hit enemies with melee. That melee bit is a benefit for you of course, because they cant hit you either. It definitely isn't bad in enough more situations than it's good in to be worth a free feat.

Rethinking it though, I think I'll get rid of the Wisdom bit, so they can pick up lot of rocks or something and go outside.

[EdroGrimshell]

This is 1) Hilarious for RP purposes and 2) a wierd feat. I don't know if most people would take it but for a sillier it'd be an okay one.

[Qwertystop]

This is 1) Hilarious for RP purposes and 2) a wierd feat. I don't know if most people would take it but for a sillier it'd be an okay one.

Exactly my intent, funny and different without being bad.

[radmelon]

This feat works exactly until you reach someplace outside of a dungeon like say, an open field. Then things get tricky.

[Qwertystop]

This feat works exactly until you reach someplace outside of a dungeon like say, an open field. Then things get tricky.

Thats why I made the rule about what you're carrying. Pick up some rocks and you can walk around clumsily, or just pole off the ground like a riverboat. High-level adventurers with this would probably carry around a box of weights in a bag of holding for just this situation, or maybe a sort of roofed cart so they don't get the DEX penalty.

[averagejoe]

This is actually pretty interesting. You get what amounts to situational flight in return for a penalty to your regular movement (i.e. carrying unnecessary weight or similar when you're not on the ceiling. I'd totally take this for the right character.

If I were to criticize it, it's that the feat seems to come out of nowhere. Maybe you should flavor it like the OA feats that you get if you were descended from someone cool, or something like that. It's a family curse, or talent that people born with the ability can choose to develop. Something like that. All feats don't require explaination, but I prefer that supernatural seeming ones do.

[Qwertystop]

This is actually pretty interesting. You get what amounts to situational flight in return for a penalty to your regular movement (i.e. carrying unnecessary weight or similar when you're not on the ceiling. I'd totally take this for the right character.
I was envisioning it as these people being on the ceiling unless the floor is absolutely necessary, as being on the ceiling is natural to them. By "Situational Flight", do you mean the floating around when holding exactly the right amount of stuff? Because that's only controlled if you have something to push off of, and something to hit when you get where you're going.

If I were to criticize it, it's that the feat seems to come out of nowhere. Maybe you should flavor it like the OA feats that you get if you were descended from someone cool, or something like that. It's a family curse, or talent that people born with the ability can choose to develop. Something like that. All feats don't require explaination, but I prefer that supernatural seeming ones do.
I wasn't sure about fluff, so I didn't bother making any. Got any more specific ideas? I figured the origin could be decided by the player, same as the rest of the backstory. The most I did in that respect was making sure that it wouldn't come out of nowhere mid-life, since you need to take it at first level. The assumption is that they were born with it.

Actually, I'll add a bit about a feather-fall for a month after birth, to explain why the babies don't smash against the ceiling as soon as they're born.

[NichG]

Maybe have the feats as the mark or curse of some sort of chaos being or wild mage deity? Somewhere on the internet there's a list of 10000 random magical effects that could go off when a wild surge occurs. A lot of them are wildly large radius, like 'paladins within 30 miles ...', etc. What if this sort of thing is the result of being hit by something similar sometime in your character's past?

Other ideas (if you need em, that is):

- Fail at dying. Basically, the first time you die (or any time you would normally transition from living to dead) you automatically turn into some form of sentient undead instead of properly dying.

- Fail at missing. Any ranged attack you make will without fail hit a target assuming there is a target within range. If you miss your attack roll against your intended target you auto-hit a random target in range instead. Great feat for a solo combatant, horrible for a team player.

- Fail at Aging. You age backwards, and so both your mental and physical stats improve as you 'age', but you must start the campaign at the maximum age category for your race and thus begin with a -6 to all physical stats. A bit harsh, and then pretty powerful for a feat later on if the campaign is long timescale (+3 to three stats for a single feat)

- Fail at Existing. Half the time you aren't. Some sort of mutual blink effect - your stuff has a miss chance, but so do things against you.

[EdroGrimshell]

I was envisioning it as these people being on the ceiling unless the floor is absolutely necessary, as being on the ceiling is natural to them. By "Situational Flight", do you mean the floating around when holding exactly the right amount of stuff? Because that's only controlled if you have something to push off of, and something to hit when you get where you're going.

Immovable rods are invaluable for these guys, modified ones made as boots would be very useful.

[Qwertystop]

Immovable rods are invaluable for these guys, modified ones made as boots would be very useful.

but as soon as they un-immovable the boots, they float up.

[EdroGrimshell]

but as soon as they un-immovable the boots, they float up.

release one boot at a time and reactivate the other as you release the other. Make it automatic and you have an instant way of staying anywhere you want, even a a "landbound" individual would find use for these.

[averagejoe]

By "Situational Flight", do you mean the floating around when holding exactly the right amount of stuff?

Nah, I meant walking around on the ceiling. It's not really as good as flight, but is useful in many of the same ways flight is.


I wasn't sure about fluff, so I didn't bother making any. Got any more specific ideas?

Not at the moment, and I have to leave the house pretty soon. However you could even put something like, "There are many ways this can happen. Sometimes it's the result of a magical accident or a freak occurrence. This can also be the result of a cursed bloodline or mixed heritage, etc." This sort of thing also opens the doors for more pseudo-magical feats.

[Seerow]

I'm seeing a character with this feat, a friend with a rope, and being pulled around like a kite.

[Veklim]

Normal: Gravity pulls you toward the ground, like everyone else.

The fact you felt the need to say that amused me nearly as much as the feat itself. :smallwink:


release one boot at a time and reactivate the other as you release the other. Make it automatic and you have an instant way of staying anywhere you want, even a a "landbound" individual would find use for these.

I always preferred to use arms of the naga with an immovable rod in each arm. Makes for much more utility, and a monk or similar would have a wail of a time with all 4 limbs free to attack at the same time...


- Fail at dying. Basically, the first time you die (or any time you would normally transition from living to dead) you automatically turn into some form of sentient undead instead of properly dying.

That is very Pratchett, and I'm amused.

[Ernir]

These might be more appropriate as traits rather than feats.

[Qwertystop]

Maybe have the feats as the mark or curse of some sort of chaos being or wild mage deity? Somewhere on the internet there's a list of 10000 random magical effects that could go off when a wild surge occurs. A lot of them are wildly large radius, like 'paladins within 30 miles ...', etc. What if this sort of thing is the result of being hit by something similar sometime in your character's past?
Seems like a good idea, but of course just about any sort of oddness could result in these.


- Fail at dying. Basically, the first time you die (or any time you would normally transition from living to dead) you automatically turn into some form of sentient undead instead of properly dying.
Seems a bit overpowered. Aren't there a few classes with "turn into an undead" as a capstone? And don't most intelligent undead have a bit of LA?


- Fail at missing. Any ranged attack you make will without fail hit a target assuming there is a target within range. If you miss your attack roll against your intended target you auto-hit a random target in range instead. Great feat for a solo combatant, horrible for a team player. Again, overpowered. All you have to do is make sure that you never stay within range of your allies and you've got no miss chance at all.


- Fail at Aging. You age backwards, and so both your mental and physical stats improve as you 'age', but you must start the campaign at the maximum age category for your race and thus begin with a -6 to all physical stats. A bit harsh, and then pretty powerful for a feat later on if the campaign is long timescale (+3 to three stats for a single feat)
Not sure about this one.


- Fail at Existing. Half the time you aren't. Some sort of mutual blink effect - your stuff has a miss chance, but so do things against you.
Working on this right now, should be up by tomorrow. I'm reworking it a bit, though, since it seems a bit too good as you wrote it. What if you're a spellcaster? Your own miss chance can now be completely ignored, since you don't use too many attack rolls. By the way, phrasing of the second sentence was perfect.

These might be more appropriate as traits rather than feats.
Yes, maybe in some ways, but traits are usually more minor. Most traits are just a small penalty to a skill (or just a situational usage of a skill) with a small bonus to another. These are a bit bigger.



EDIT: Added the feat "Occasionally Not".

[Jjeinn-tae]

The fact you felt the need to say that amused me nearly as much as the feat itself. :smallwink:

You have to list these things, otherwise how are we supposed to know how gravity effects the average person? Gravity could quite possibly turn the average person blue.



Hmm, how about "Failure at Linguistics" You understand every language, but whenever you talk, you speak in a random language. Though, that seems pretty debilitating for non metagamers, and awesome for metagamers...

[Qwertystop]

The fact you felt the need to say that amused me nearly as much as the feat itself. :smallwink:

Then you should like the equivalent text of the next feat. I'm planning to do one for all of them, and to phrase them in the most pointlessly flourishy way possible.

[averagejoe]

One critique on the rules: You have "level one exactly," as a prerequisite. By RAW this means that you stop getting the feat if you gain a level, which I don't think was the intent.


A character can’t use a feat if he or she has lost a prerequisite.

Found Here. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/feats.htm#prerequisites)

What you proabably want to do is have no prerequisite, but have the text, "Special: you may only take this feat as a first level character."

[Draz74]

- Fail at dying. Basically, the first time you die (or any time you would normally transition from living to dead) you automatically turn into some form of sentient undead instead of properly dying.
How about a Jekyll & Hyde sort of format? Every time you die, you come back to life, but every even-numbered life, instead of you, it's your evil twin (possibly undead or shadow-planed or something), whose life goal is to subtly counteract whatever the good twin has been working toward?


- Fail at Existing. Half the time you aren't. Some sort of mutual blink effect - your stuff has a miss chance, but so do things against you.

Very boring to actually play. Almost like being affected by a permanent Bestow Curse.

[Qwertystop]

How about a Jekyll & Hyde sort of format? Every time you die, you come back to life, but every even-numbered life, instead of you, it's your evil twin (possibly undead or shadow-planed or something), whose life goal is to subtly counteract whatever the good twin has been working toward?

But that still has the whole "infinite free Resurrections at level one" thing. Also, after the party realizes what's going on, they could just re-kill you every alternate ressurection. That's not even metagaming, it's common sense. "This guy turns from good to evil or vice versa every time he dies, but we only want him good, so let's kill him every other time he dies".

Seems great, but wouldn't really work out.

[NichG]

I think the trick for 'fail at dying' is to make it so death is still inconvenient. If you gain the Necropolitan template when you die, for instance, then you lose a level's worth of xp. The second time you die you end up destroyed, so your freebie is up.

Essentially its a feat for a 1-time pre-paid Reincarnate, which is probably reasonable at low levels.

For 'Occasionally Not', what about if instead of just having a random pop out thing, you can intentionally pop out as an immediate action but it takes a DC 20 Charisma check to return (which consumes a full round action). That makes it useful (a little more potent than Abrupt Jaunt) but with a big downside. Good for escaping sudden explosion.

[Thugorp]

Yes, I very much like Occasionally not, but as written it is really more of a flaw. It has no upside and a downside.... I mean, it has a neutral-side and a downside, but neutral does not an up-side make(I am sure an upside could explain that to you. :-p).

[Draz74]

But that still has the whole "infinite free Resurrections at level one" thing. Also, after the party realizes what's going on, they could just re-kill you every alternate ressurection. That's not even metagaming, it's common sense. "This guy turns from good to evil or vice versa every time he dies, but we only want him good, so let's kill him every other time he dies".

Seems great, but wouldn't really work out.

No, I thought of all that. Note that having this ability does cost a feat ... it should give an advantage, on the whole. Also, after the party kills your evil twin a couple times (and their learning to do so would be a fun process to roleplay!), the evil twin will undoubtedly learn some evasive/stealthy tactics, no? Run and hide as soon as he "wakes up"? (If he didn't start out with a devious enough style to work his sabotage subtly, that is.)

I suppose there could be a clause about how your party doesn't get any XP for defeating your evil twin (more than once), or something like that. Also, maybe a clause that it takes 1d20 or d% rounds after you die before the evil twin pops up, so your party doesn't know when to expect him.

[Cog]

Something about the gravity one seems a little weird to me. By basing it off load instead of weight, you make it so that a character who gets hit with a Bull's Strength or a Barbarian who goes into rage suddenly float up when they wouldn't have before. Of course, if that's how you intend it to work it's just fine; these feats are supposed to be counterintuitive, after all. :smallwink:

[Hiro Protagonest]

These seem more like flaws then feats. Upside-down makes it so you'd just keep falling up into the sky, and if you carry enough weight to stay on the ground, you take penalties.

[super dark33]

I like this :smallbiggrin:.

In roleplaying groups, these can be very funny on NPC's.

[Lateral]

Upside-Down
Prerequisites: No racial fly (or similar) move speed with perfect maneuverability.
Benefits: You are affected by gravity in a way exactly opposite to most people. While most people fall down, and pretty much stay on the ground without effort, you fall toward ceilings. This is an Extraordinary effect. The effect will hold up to your moderate load in carried equipment. If you are carrying the absolute minimum amount of weight to count as a heavy load, you (and the equipment) are not affected by gravity in any way, though your own senses continue telling you that "down" is where most people have "up". You do not gain a fly speed, but you can be pushed around through the air as thought you had no weight. If you carry more than the minimum heavy load, you fall to the ground, and your weight is considered to be equal to what you are carrying minus your moderate load. Your sense of balance continues to tell you the reversed "up' and "down', however, so you incur a -4 to Dexterity, and an additional -2 to Reflex saves, if trying to act in what, to you, is an upside-down direction.
People are born with this feat. For the first month after birth, they are under an effect identical to that of a Feather Fall spell.
Special: This feat can only be taken at first level.
Normal: Gravity pulls you toward the ground, like everyone else.
This isn't powerful enough to warrant a feat- it completely screws you when you're outside, which is most of the time for most normal campaigns. Its advantages are pretty heavily outweighed by its disadvantages, and you won't always have a heavy load handy. Maybe a trait- feats are supposed to at least mostly be positive, and this is about even.



Occasionally Not
Most people always are, but occasionally you are not.
Benefit: immediately before your place in initiative, roll 1d3. On a 3, you cease to exist until your turn next comes up, at which point you reappear, and take actions as usual. You do not roll on the turn that you reappear. If you are in the middle of an action that takes more than one round to complete, treat it as though you stopped for that one round. If you have 10 or more HD, you are powerful enough that the universe will not forget you so easily. Instead of rolling 1d3, roll 1d6. On a 5, you will cease to exist as above. On a 6, however, you leave behind a slightly translucent image of yourself, frozen in the exact position you were in when you disappeared. Treat this as a Silent Image spell with a caster level equal to your HD, and a duration of "until you reappear".
Special: This feat can only be taken at first level.
Normal: You suffer no spontaneous lapses in existance.
NOTE: when out of combat, it is advised simply to say that the character with this feat seems to be flickering, vanishing for a few seconds then reappearing for a bit, instead of rolling every 6 seconds.
This should be a flaw! There is no advantage here! You lose a turn in combat, and in return you get to not be attacked that turn, and it's completely random. It'd be okay if it were immediately after your place in initiative, but as written you're losing a turn.

[Qwertystop]

Yeah, I've been considering changing the first to a feat, and the second to a flaw. That sound about right?

[Lateral]

The first one's already a feat, so I'll assume you meant trait. It would be a pretty large trait- most normal ones are a small mechanical penalty for a small mechanical bonus. It could work as one, though. The second one could be a flaw, and actually might not be worth taking at lower levels since it's so large a flaw. Maybe if you made it so that when you roll the d3, it happens next round so you're ready.

[Qwertystop]

The first one's already a feat, so I'll assume you meant trait. It would be a pretty large trait- most normal ones are a small mechanical penalty for a small mechanical bonus. It could work as one, though. The second one could be a flaw, and actually might not be worth taking at lower levels since it's so large a flaw. Maybe if you made it so that when you roll the d3, it happens next round so you're ready.

Yes I meant trait. As for the second, I agree that it's pretty major. Not sure what I was thinking, I was trying to balance a suggestion.

[Thugorp]

NO NO don't change the, "Sometimes Not," thing, I mean it is deffenetly a flaw,(and not a feat), but It IS AWSOME the way it is. Don't forget that you get a feat for having a flaw. So, not only do you get the cool randome disapare(or faid) thing but you ALSO get a feat. ... Compare it to the Chicken Infestation flaw, or the got pig one... or the mystical hydrophobic flaw... these are all about on the same level as yours... exept the pig one is worse. :-)

[Lateral]

Those are joke flaws for commoners. This is not a joke, and is for regular PCs. You can't use those as a balance point.

[Qwertystop]

Changed Upside-Down to a trait, and Occasionally Not to a flaw.

[Thugorp]

O.k. yes chicken infestation and the pig one, are for commoners(though I am not quite sure how jokey they are when you consider the fact that they are for commoners... I mean... can you really make a joke, flaw for something that can be killed by a cat?). However, the Mystical, Hydrophobia flaw is from what I can tell not for commoners, and not humorous.(though I am not sure how official it is... it was listed with the official flaws though in the D&Dwiki... so I think it is official).

In any case, I think the Sometimes not flaw is o.k. the way it is. However, it could even things out a bit if perhaps you allowed the Silent Image left by characters over 10h.d. to move and take actions as the normal character could, with the exception that it cannot make noise(silent image :-)) and that any damage done by him(and he in general) can be disbelieved just as an actual Silent Image(cast by a sorc/wiz of the character's level) could be.

[Qwertystop]

In any case, I think the Sometimes not flaw is o.k. the way it is. However, it could even things out a bit if perhaps you allowed the Silent Image left by characters over 10h.d. to move and take actions as the normal character could, with the exception that it cannot make noise(silent image :-)) and that any damage done by him(and he in general) can be disbelieved just as an actual Silent Image(cast by a sorc/wiz of the character's level) could be.

Why? The point is that the character no longer exists, the silent image is an afterimage of them, like if you look at a bright light you'll see it for a little while even if you look away. There's no character left to tell the image to do anything.

[Thugorp]

I wasn't thinking that the character would be telling the image what to do, I was thinking that the image would BE the character. What I was thinking is that, ya, before the universe just forgot you(1/3 chance), but then(you literally say) you are powerful enough now so that the universe can't forget you as easily. The way you have it now, a player with 10H.D. or more roles 1d6 on a five(1/6 chance) his/her character ceases to be as before(I assume during this time no one remembers him since he[during that round] never existed...) but [now] on a 6(1/6 chance) essentially the same thing happens except that there is now an extra grid token left in his place. Whats worse is that because its a silent image, the combat round is now lengthened and complicated because everyone still has to role saving throws to disbelieve it... which is actually anti-thematic because what are they disbelieving anyway? are they disbelieving that he does exist, or that he does not?

Allowing the Image motion still allows the player to role-play even while the character is being taken(mostly) out of combat and it will be less boring for that player. In world, this could represent the character trying to resist fading, he is in a fight with the universe to exist, and it isn't clear who is wining, when he roles next round he will either cease to be(losing this round of the fight), remain as only a Silent Image(continuing to fight), or become fully visible and corporal again(winning a small battle in his war to exist).

In the end as this is written now, whether the player has 1H.D. or 18H.D. the affect on the character's player is the same, there is a one in three(1:3) chance that, that, player will loss around 2.666 rounds of both role-play and roll-play per-encounter. However, from the parties perspective this flaw actually becomes more troublesome as the character gets stronger because the combat round is lengthened by all of the saving throws the ability forces them to make. On the other hand, if the image could move, he could avoid his party members and by staying close to enemies only force them to make disbelieve checks.

[Qwertystop]

I wasn't thinking that the character would be telling the image what to do, I was thinking that the image would BE the character. What I was thinking is that, ya, before the universe just forgot you(1/3 chance), but then(you literally say) you are powerful enough now so that the universe can't forget you as easily. The way you have it now, a player with 10H.D. or more roles 1d6 on a five(1/6 chance) his/her character ceases to be as before(I assume during this time no one remembers him since he[during that round] never existed...) but [now] on a 6(1/6 chance) essentially the same thing happens except that there is now an extra grid token left in his place. Whats worse is that because its a silent image, the combat round is now lengthened and complicated because everyone still has to role saving throws to disbelieve it... which is actually anti-thematic because what are they disbelieving anyway? are they disbelieving that he does exist, or that he does not?

Allowing the Image motion still allows the player to role-play even while the character is being taken(mostly) out of combat and it will be less boring for that player. In world, this could represent the character trying to resist fading, he is in a fight with the universe to exist, and it isn't clear who is wining, when he roles next round he will either cease to be(losing this round of the fight), remain as only a Silent Image(continuing to fight), or become fully visible and corporal again(winning a small battle in his war to exist).

In the end as this is written now, whether the player has 1H.D. or 18H.D. the affect on the character's player is the same, there is a one in three(1:3) chance that, that, player will loss around 2.666 rounds of both role-play and roll-play per-encounter. However, from the parties perspective this flaw actually becomes more troublesome as the character gets stronger because the combat round is lengthened by all of the saving throws the ability forces them to make. On the other hand, if the image could move, he could avoid his party members and by staying close to enemies only force them to make disbelieve checks.

Firstly, he would only vanish for that round, nobody would forget him in general. The roll for disbelief would be to realize that what you see there is only an image, not the real guy. Also, he would not lose "2.666..." rounds of combat per encounter, he would lose, on average, 1/3 of the encounter, and no consecutive rounds. If the phrasing of "you become powerful enough that the universe has a hard time forgetting you" is difficult for you, I'll rephrase it:
"You have enough raw power that sometimes, when you disappear, you leave an afterimage."
Also, disbelief checks would not need to be made unless someone tries to do something to you, because that's interacting with the illusion. Just looking at an illusion does not provoke a save, AFAIK.

[Thugorp]

First the average length of an encounter is 8 rounds, one third of 8 is about 2.666 2.767 or so, this would mean that on average a player would loss 2.666 2.767 or so rounds of play(both kinds) during each encounter.(sorry if it was, "difficult for you")(edit: since even my math was off by about 0.101 I will retract my snarky comment for now... but I do it begrudgingly)

Second, assuming the character with this flaw is Small or larger, any player seeking to move through his square would have to make disbelieve checks, they would also have to make a disbelieving check if they wanted to do something that would involve any sort of tactical dessication making that could potentially affect or involve the character[with the flaw] since they wouldn't know not to include him in their(the tactician's) thought proses unless they(the tactician) could tell that the Image wasn't really the flawed character.

Also if the entire universe it's self forgot the dude ever existed, why wouldn't the illiterate barbarian dude he is traveling with?

edit: O.k. I feel bad now, not so much about what I am saying but about the tone that I take in saying it... I think the way you wrote your last post caused me to assume a certain attitue behind it... on thinking on it through, I realize that I can not hear the tone of your voice or the look on your face, so while it seems to me that the tone of your last post was a bit rude and condisending, I also realize that may simply be my interpretation, and so I would like to say that if I did misunderstand the tone of your last post I am sorry for the Obviously aggressive tenor taken in this one.

[Qwertystop]

First the average length of an encounter is 8 rounds, one third of 8 is about 2.666, this would mean that on average a player would loss 2.666 rounds of play(both kinds) during each encounter.(sorry if it was, "difficult for you")

Second, assuming the character with this flaw is Small or larger, any player seeking to move through his square would have to make disbelieve checks, they would also have to make a disbelieving check if they wanted to do something that would involve any sort of tactical dessication making that could potentially affect or involve the character[with the flaw] since they wouldn't know not to include him in their(the tactician's) thought proses unless they(the tactician) could tell that the Image wasn't really the flawed character.

Also if the entire universe it's self forgot the dude ever existed, why wouldn't the illiterate barbarian dude he is traveling with?

Ah, now that number makes sense. I never heard any "average encounter length" before. Also, sorry if my "difficult for you" sounds condescending.

If they think he's there, why would they try to move through his space? Also, if they actually move through his space, they know he isn't there, because they went right through him. A character who has proof of an illusion's nonreality needs no save. In the example about the tactician, they wouldn't need to make a disbelief save just for thinking about the character. Finally, I would assume that the character would fill their allies in about this, so they would know "If Joe ever freezes completely in place and turns translucent mid-combat, and there's nothing that could have paralyzed him and turned him translucent, that's just an afterimage and he's not really there", so again they KNOW that it's an illusion.

And again, the universe did not "forget he ever existed", it (following that original fluff) forgot to keep track of him. If it forgot he ever existed, the past would change, and therefore the entire situation of reality would change for a few seconds whenever he vanishes. I'm now rephrasing that bit, since it causes nothing but confusion.

[Thugorp]

Oh o.k. I will read the new version before I make any further comments.

Also, If you reread my last post I edited in an apology section just before you posted your last. :-) I am glad to see that I needed it. :-)

[DracoDei]

8 rounds sounds very long for an encounter, let alone an AVERAGE length (meaning that about half would be longer than that).

[Veklim]

(meaning that about half would be longer than that).

Depends on which 'average' you are using, and how many values one uses to compile the data. For instance, 5 different combats take 5,6,6,8 and 15 rounds. That's a mean average of 8 and only one combat took more than 8 rounds. Also, with the same values, the modal average would be 6.
Statistics are usually misleading.

[Qwertystop]

Where are you getting the numbers to get that average anyway, Thugorp? If its from the sourcebooks, I wouldn't trust it too much. They wrote those thinking that Meatshield Fighter + Trapfinder Rogue + Blaster Wizard + Healbot Cleric was optimal.

[DracoDei]

Depends on which 'average' you are using, and how many values one uses to compile the data. For instance, 5 different combats take 5,6,6,8 and 15 rounds. That's a mean average of 8 and only one combat took more than 8 rounds. Also, with the same values, the modal average would be 6.
Statistics are usually misleading.
Yes, yes, I took a statistics class. You don't need to tell me.

[Zaydos]

I'd say average # of rounds is closer to 4 (most encounters I've seen take 3 to 5 rounds) than 8, honestly.

Also median tends to be the most accurate average as it is much less affected by outliers than mean and represents the whole range of numbers better than modal in most cases (which in the above example makes the average 6). But game designers can't be expected to know more forms of average than mean (neither can biology teachers).

[averagejoe]

This isn't powerful enough to warrant a feat- it completely screws you when you're outside, which is most of the time for most normal campaigns. Its advantages are pretty heavily outweighed by its disadvantages, and you won't always have a heavy load handy. Maybe a trait- feats are supposed to at least mostly be positive, and this is about even.

I completely disagree here. Without even thinking too hard, I can imagine how it could be advantageous even when you're outside. I'll agree that it doesn't have much direct power, you do have to get a little creative, but I could definitely imagine taking this as a feat. I'd bet someone who's actually good at optimizing could come up with better stuff than I.

[Lonely Tylenol]

First the average length of an encounter is 8 rounds, one third of 8 is about 2.666 2.767 or so, this would mean that on average a player would loss 2.666 2.767 or so rounds of play(both kinds) during each encounter.(sorry if it was, "difficult for you")(edit: since even my math was off by about 0.101 I will retract my snarky comment for now... but I do it begrudgingly)

I think the fact that you don't have to roll on turns following your blinking out of existence makes it such that you can't even properly divide this into thirds; it's more like an even quarter, because the one-third chance that you disappear gives you one round free of the roll.

If it averaged to one-third of every round, on average, you'd blink out of existence, then these numbers would be more fitting.

Personally, I love these; not so much because they're mechanically optimal or anything, but because they're full of flavor. I'd take "Occasionally Not" as a flaw, not for the bonus feat (Noncombatant would be better for me as a Wizard), but for the flavorful reasoning you could give behind your flaw, like "the excitement of combat stirs up the arcane energies within the character, occasionally overcharging them and blinking them temporarily out of this plane of existence". Brilliant!

I think the one mentioned on the first page about languages (you can comprehend every language, but when you speak, it comes out randomly) is another brilliant one, that has a great deal of flavor; however, I'm not sure if I'd make it a trait or a flaw. I'd probably do something like this:

Multi-Cultural (Trait)
Whether it be a densely populated metropolis or just an open, free-thinking society, you were raised in an environment that exposed you to many languages at a very young age. You can understand all commonly spoken languages easily (as with the Comprehend Languages) spell, but when you try to speak, it comes out as a garbled mix of your known languages.

Roll percentile die. If the result is greater than 80, you are able to form a somewhat coherent message when you speak. Otherwise, you babble incoherently in a garbled mix of languages.

A character who has Comprehend Languages can understand somebody with the Multi-Cultural trait, but will also hear that they are speaking a mix of languages when they speak.

EDIT: I imagine the "babbling incoherently" to be something like the Gutterspeak in Blade Runner.

[Hiro Protagonest]

Multi-Cultural (Trait)
Whether it be a densely populated metropolis or just an open, free-thinking society, you were raised in an environment that exposed you to many languages at a very young age. You can understand all commonly spoken languages easily (as with the Comprehend Languages) spell, but when you try to speak, it comes out as a garbled mix of your known languages.

Roll percentile die. If the result is greater than 80, you are able to form a somewhat coherent message when you speak. Otherwise, you babble incoherently in a garbled mix of languages.

A character who has Comprehend Languages can understand somebody with the Multi-Cultural trait, but will also hear that they are speaking a mix of languages when they speak.

A munchkin would take both this and the mute flaw. :smallamused: nobody understands you anyway, so you might as well get a bonus feat out of it!

[Jjeinn-tae]

I think the fact that you don't have to roll on turns following your blinking out of existence makes it such that you can't even properly divide this into thirds; it's more like an even quarter, because the one-third chance that you disappear gives you one round free of the roll.

If it averaged to one-third of every round, on average, you'd blink out of existence, then these numbers would be more fitting.

Personally, I love these; not so much because they're mechanically optimal or anything, but because they're full of flavor. I'd take "Occasionally Not" as a flaw, not for the bonus feat (Noncombatant would be better for me as a Wizard), but for the flavorful reasoning you could give behind your flaw, like "the excitement of combat stirs up the arcane energies within the character, occasionally overcharging them and blinking them temporarily out of this plane of existence". Brilliant!

I think the one mentioned on the first page about languages (you can comprehend every language, but when you speak, it comes out randomly) is another brilliant one, that has a great deal of flavor; however, I'm not sure if I'd make it a trait or a flaw. I'd probably do something like this:

Multi-Cultural (Trait)
Whether it be a densely populated metropolis or just an open, free-thinking society, you were raised in an environment that exposed you to many languages at a very young age. You can understand all commonly spoken languages easily (as with the Comprehend Languages) spell, but when you try to speak, it comes out as a garbled mix of your known languages.

Roll percentile die. If the result is greater than 80, you are able to form a somewhat coherent message when you speak. Otherwise, you babble incoherently in a garbled mix of languages.

A character who has Comprehend Languages can understand somebody with the Multi-Cultural trait, but will also hear that they are speaking a mix of languages when they speak.

EDIT: I imagine the "babbling incoherently" to be something like the Gutterspeak in Blade Runner.

Pretty much exactly what I was thinking, except toned down. I like it. :smallbiggrin:


A munchkin would take both this and the mute flaw. :smallamused: nobody understands you anyway, so you might as well get a bonus feat out of it!

Yeah, though a munchkin could probably find a great use for the others too. 1st level walking on ceilings with a bow would be quite powerful... Though a perfect opportunity for the DM to mob you by spiders. :smallamused:

[Qwertystop]

I think the fact that you don't have to roll on turns following your blinking out of existence makes it such that you can't even properly divide this into thirds; it's more like an even quarter, because the one-third chance that you disappear gives you one round free of the roll.

If it averaged to one-third of every round, on average, you'd blink out of existence, then these numbers would be more fitting.

Personally, I love these; not so much because they're mechanically optimal or anything, but because they're full of flavor. I'd take "Occasionally Not" as a flaw, not for the bonus feat (Noncombatant would be better for me as a Wizard), but for the flavorful reasoning you could give behind your flaw, like "the excitement of combat stirs up the arcane energies within the character, occasionally overcharging them and blinking them temporarily out of this plane of existence". Brilliant!

I think the one mentioned on the first page about languages (you can comprehend every language, but when you speak, it comes out randomly) is another brilliant one, that has a great deal of flavor; however, I'm not sure if I'd make it a trait or a flaw. I'd probably do something like this:

Multi-Cultural (Trait)
Whether it be a densely populated metropolis or just an open, free-thinking society, you were raised in an environment that exposed you to many languages at a very young age. You can understand all commonly spoken languages easily (as with the Comprehend Languages) spell, but when you try to speak, it comes out as a garbled mix of your known languages.

Roll percentile die. If the result is greater than 80, you are able to form a somewhat coherent message when you speak. Otherwise, you babble incoherently in a garbled mix of languages.

A character who has Comprehend Languages can understand somebody with the Multi-Cultural trait, but will also hear that they are speaking a mix of languages when they speak.

EDIT: I imagine the "babbling incoherently" to be something like the Gutterspeak in Blade Runner.

Thank you very much for the praise, the "full of flavor" is what I was going for.
Mind if I move Multi-Cultural to the first post? I'll give you credit.

[Lonely Tylenol]

Thank you very much for the praise, the "full of flavor" is what I was going for.
Mind if I move Multi-Cultural to the first post? I'll give you credit.

Sure, but you should give Jjeinn-tae at least collaborative credit; I probably wouldn't have bothered were it not for the post I saw on the first page with the initial idea.

[invinible]

Type: Feat
Name: 3 Dimensional
Prerequisites: Must take at character creation.
Description: You are more interesting than the Mary Sues and Pseudo Sues as you have real flaws rather than just features you try to pass off as flaws.
Effect: Take up to 50 additional flaws that don't contradict your current character profile but must take at least 1.
Special: You can forgo an benefits the flaws allow you to take from elsewhere when you take it but can't change your mind about doing so later. In addition if you don't take some of the 50 flaws you are allowed to take at character creation than when game beings than the number of flaws you did use to take with this feat at character creation is the most you can get from this feat.

[Jjeinn-tae]

So, 3 Dimensional is essentially making an Anti Sue? (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/AntiSue) I don't quite understand it, you get a bunch of flaws without being "paid" in feats?


Sure, but you should give Jjeinn-tae at least collaborative credit; I probably wouldn't have bothered were it not for the post I saw on the first page with the initial idea.

Why thank you, this was not necessary though. :smallsmile:

[Samm]

Upside-Down
TRAIT
Requirements: You cannot take this trait if you have a racial fly (or similar) move speed with perfect maneuverability.
You are affected by gravity in a way exactly opposite to most people. While most people fall down, and pretty much stay on the ground without effort, you fall toward ceilings. This is an Extraordinary effect. The effect will hold up to your moderate load in carried equipment. If you are carrying the absolute minimum amount of weight to count as a heavy load, you (and the equipment) are not affected by gravity in any way, though your own senses continue telling you that "down" is where most people have "up". You do not gain a fly speed, but you can be pushed around through the air as thought you had no weight. If you carry more than the minimum heavy load, you fall to the ground, and your weight is considered to be equal to what you are carrying minus your moderate load. Your sense of balance continues to tell you the reversed "up' and "down', however, so you incur a -4 to Dexterity, and an additional -2 to Reflex saves, if trying to act in what, to you, is an upside-down direction.
People are born with this trait. For the first month after birth, they are under an effect identical to that of a Feather Fall spell.

Now, I'm no physicist, but I'm pretty sure that negating gravity doesn't involve one acting as if they have no mass at all. F=MA still applies in space.

[Veklim]

Now, I'm no physicist, but I'm pretty sure that negating gravity doesn't involve one acting as if they have no mass at all. F=MA still applies in space.

You're very correct sir. Mass is a constant, you have the same mass at zero G as you do at 20 G, thing is, your weight changes. What this flaw appears to do is turn you into a kinda zero point in the gravity well at precisely heavy load, which is fine for most of what is listed here, but doesn't take into account either inertia or resistance. Luckily, most people don't care that much :smallwink:

[invinible]

So, 3 Dimensional is essentially making an Anti Sue? (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/AntiSue) I don't quite understand it, you get a bunch of flaws without being "paid" in feats?



Why thank you, this was not necessary though. :smallsmile:

The feat allows you to forgo the benefit(s) you get by taking the flaw(s) you take by taking it but doesn't require you to. In fact; when picking up flaws with the feat, you can chose to forgo benefits on some of the flaws and take them on other flaws.

[Qwertystop]

The feat allows you to forgo the benefit(s) you get by taking the flaw(s) you take by taking it but doesn't require you to. In fact; when picking up flaws with the feat, you can chose to forgo benefits on some of the flaws and take them on other flaws.

But therefore you can take the feat for every single flaw, getting 48 bonus feats (You would be able to get 2 from flaws anyway).

[Sydonai]

The first one seems perfect for Underdark races.

[invinible]

But therefore you can take the feat for every single flaw, getting 48 bonus feats (You would be able to get 2 from flaws anyway).

I was thinking more along the lines of you are required to take the amount of flaws the character creation process normally allows for your adventure + 1 for taking this feat.

So if during character creation you are normally allowed to take 2 flaws than with this flaw you are allowed to take 52 flaws total but must take 3 flaws (1 for taking the flaw and 2 you would have normally been allowed).

[Qwertystop]

I was thinking more along the lines of you are required to take the amount of flaws the character creation process normally allows for your adventure + 1 for taking this feat.

So if during character creation you are normally allowed to take 2 flaws than with this flaw you are allowed to take 52 flaws total but must take 3 flaws (1 for taking the flaw and 2 you would have normally been allowed).

My point is that it would allow you to get 52 feats at first level. Nobody ever takes flaws that they cannot avoid the penalty of except for roleplaying reasons (and even then, people often don't take the flaw, and have the penalty be entirely RP), so it isn't much of a penalty. Its a feat that says "you can get up to 50 bonus feats".

[invinible]

My point is that it would allow you to get 52 feats at first level. Nobody ever takes flaws that they cannot avoid the penalty of except for roleplaying reasons (and even then, people often don't take the flaw, and have the penalty be entirely RP), so it isn't much of a penalty. Its a feat that says "you can get up to 50 bonus feats".

I read somewhere that if you take a flaw that doesn't have mechanical drawbacks to your character than you can't get mechanical benefit to offset that flaw even in the form of a feat.

[invinible]

Previous posting of the above post was giving indication that it didn't go through.

[Qwertystop]

I read somewhere that if you take a flaw that doesn't have mechanical drawbacks to your character than you can't get mechanical benefit to offset that flaw even in the form of a feat.

Not true. For example, if you play a Wizard with the Pathetic (Charisma) flaw, there is no mechanical drawback unless you are going to be using a lot of social skills or UMD. However, you still get the flaw for it. The problem is that there is no formula that will say whether or not a drwback is significant enough to merit a feat, since it's so situational.

[Veklim]

The problem is that there is no formula that will say whether or not a drwback is significant enough to merit a feat, since it's so situational.

This is why the DM needs to be on top of these things, final line of moderation between the rules and the (truly evil) players. :smallwink:

[Qwertystop]

This is why the DM needs to be on top of these things, final line of moderation between the rules and the (truly evil) players. :smallwink:

So you actaully expect people to take flaws that are actually penalizing their characters?

[Veklim]

So you actaully expect people to take flaws that are actually penalizing their characters?

Yes. That's strangely the point. I've played enough BESM to know that a flaw is not always a huge drawback, and sometimes it's a blessing in disguise, but usually it's a mechanical aid to amusing and layered role playing. Am I truly that weird in that I ENJOY having a flawed character to run about with?! Having said that, I always did love Malchavians.....

[invinible]

Not true. For example, if you play a Wizard with the Pathetic (Charisma) flaw, there is no mechanical drawback unless you are going to be using a lot of social skills or UMD. However, you still get the flaw for it. The problem is that there is no formula that will say whether or not a drwback is significant enough to merit a feat, since it's so situational.

But socialising is about 1/2 the game.

With that flaw I can think of these drawbacks occurring:

You are more likely to be specifically targeted.
NPCs are more likely to try to cheat your character.
NPCs are more likely to pull your character aside to give false information.
NPCs are less likely to give correct information while you character is around.
NPCs are more likely to destroy items they know your character is after just to keep said character from getting said item.
Guards are more likely to respond to your character's actions in a way that isn't beneficial to said character.
Those your character is fighting are more likely to call for back-up.
And a higher possibility of NPCs that are actively trying to kill your character.

Hence that flaw does have mechanical drawbacks.

[Telonius]

Open Mouth, Insert Foot

You have an uncanny knack at saying exactly the wrong thing. However, sometimes your ineptitude can be ridiculously endearing.

When attempting a diplomacy check, every even-numbered result is adjudicated normally. On every odd-numbered result, treat it as having the opposite result on the table (Friendly instead of Unfriendly, Helpful instead of Hostile, no effect on indifferent). For example, starting with an Unfriendly target, a roll of a 6 results in Unfriendly. A roll of a 26 results in Unfriendly. A roll of 3 results in Helpful.

Special: A character with this feat only gains half the bonus normally given by ranks in Diplomacy.

[invinible]

Here is the base I have so far for a character by using the feat I created in this thread: Take the race Human and the class Aristocrat (which costs nothing to take by this system (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=186479)) than spending the 12 saved to get 18 bonus feats.

With the 46 feats (1 from being Human, 1 from character creation process itself, and 18 from the 12 CMPs spend +24/26 possible feats from flaws +2 from bonus for taking other feats), select these feats:

Born Psionic (Dungeons and Dragons Wiki)
Natural Skill (Dungeons and Dragons Wiki)
Ur-Soul (Dungeons and Dragons Wiki)
Academy Graduate (The Savage Tide Adventure Path)
Amphibious (D&D Wiki)
Brutish (D&D Wiki)
Child of the Sea (D&D Wiki)
Extra Training (D&D Wiki)
Glamorous (D&D Wiki)
Intuit (D&D Wiki)
Ithan (D&D Wiki)
Knowledgeable (D&D Wiki)
3 Dimensional (the feat I'm trying to get accepted)
Nimble (D&D Wiki)
Superior Build (D&D Wiki)
Word of Truth (D&D Wiki)
Able Learner (Races of Destiny)
City Slicker (Races of Destiny)
Education (E) (Eberron Campaign Setting)
Landless Nobility (Dragon #315)

Celestial Ancestry [pick Angel subtype] (Dungeons and Dragons wiki)
Projectile Vomiting, Acid (Dungeons and Dragons wiki)
Talented Invoker (Dungeons and Dragons wiki)
Product of Infernal Dalliance [pick Tanar'ri subtype] (Dungeons and Dragons wiki)
Sting of the Scorpion (Dungeons and Dragons wiki)
Versatile (Dungeons and Dragons wiki)
Desert Dweller (Dungeons and Dragons wiki)
Human Bastard [pick Elf - immunity to magical sleep effects] (Dungeons and Dragons wiki)
Lunar Heritage (Dungeons and Dragons wiki)
Magically Inclined (Dungeons and Dragons wiki)
Intellectual [pick Wisdom] (D&D Wiki)
Natural Alchemist (D&D Wiki)
Politician (D&D Wiki)
Studier (D&D Wiki)
Apprentice [pick Criminal] (Dungeon Master's Guide II)
Jinnbond [pick Dao] (Dragon #319)
Kihu-Sherem Guardian (Ghostwalk)
Noble Born (Dragon #333)
Psionic Prodigy (Web)
Sherem-Lar Sorcery (Ghostwalk)
Sherezem-Lar Sorcery (Ghostwalk)
Spellcasting Prodigy [Charisma] (Player's Guide to Faerûn)
Spellcasting Prodigy [Wisdom] (Player's Guide to Faerûn)
Spellcasting Prodigy [Intelligence] (Player's Guide to Faerûn)
Spellfire Wielder (Magic of Faerûn)
Wisdom Breeds Caution (Underdark)

The traits shout be Lefty (Dungeons and Dragons wiki) and Hermaphroditic (D&D Wiki)

And these seem to be the best way to take advantage of my homebrew feat for flaws:

Dastardly Nature (Dungeons and Dragons wiki)
Quadrimurfractiphobia (D&D Wiki)
Reincarnated Misfortune (D&D Wiki)
Verbal Tic (D&D Wiki)
Short Attention Span (D&D Wiki)
Perfectionist (D&D Wiki)
Secret voices (D&D Wiki)
Merciful (D&D Wiki)
Magical Schizophrenia (take the immunity over the bonus feat here) (D&D Wiki)
Incontinence (D&D Wiki)
Horrible Luck (D&D Wiki)
Helpful Hallucinations (D&D Wiki)
Haunted (take quest over the bonus feat here) (D&D Wiki)
Hippopotomonstrosesquipedaliophobia (D&D Wiki)
Hopeless Collecter (pick clothing) (D&D Wiki)
Dark Premonition (D&D Wiki)
Disorganized (D&D Wiki)
Ghost-Warped (D&D Wiki)
Curious (D&D Wiki)
Clumsiness (D&D Wiki)
Autophobia (D&D Wiki)
Blood Rage (D&D Wiki)
Compulsive Skinny Dipper (D&D Wiki)
Insomniac (Dragon #328)
Honorable Challenge (Dragon #324)
Code of Arms (Dragon #324)
Occasionally Not (this thread)