DM etiquette

[big teej]

greetings playgrounders,

this is a thread for new, budding, and/or novice DMs or anyone else who has been gaming for less than 5 years (or so)

bring your questions on DM/player etiquette and the best way to go about doing things.


I'll start us off.

how do you feel (as a player) when a DM 'audit's your charactersheet?

what if he does it to the whole group? does this change things?

if you have never been audited, how would you react and why?

the reason I ask is because I am auditing my party's sheets this coming sunday. I have my reasons (which I'll probably state later in the thread) but I'm curious how experienced (and newbie) role players respond to such an action.


and I wanted to start a thread as a sort of counterpoint to "things that kill fun in a session"
it's a great thread, go read it.
but I felt that we also need solutions to some of these fun-killers

hence this thread.

have at it.

[FreakyCheeseMan]

I'm probably one of the few players who wishes his DM would be at least a little bit stricter, though mine errs on the extreme end of leniency.

I wouldn't mind auditing at all at the moment- I mean, if he's going to object to something, I'd prefer he did it when I could still take back the money/feats/skill points I invested in it, rather than when I tried to use it.

Mind, anything that slows down play is a bad thing, and a DM checking my numbers on spell costs and magic item prerequisites would mean a healthy hour or two before the start of any game.

[AsteriskAmp]

I have no issue being audited (being mostly a DM and by a miracle actually becoming a player for once), and I just giggle since my character sheet is spread around, literally. I have half of it on physical medium and the other half on digital.

What does annoy is other players seeing my character sheet, but the DM? He runs the game, better make his life easier.

[Thurbane]

how do you feel (as a player) when a DM 'audit's your charactersheet?

what if he does it to the whole group? does this change things?
I'm totally OK with this. In fact, when I DM, I often request players provide me with regularly updated copies of their charsheets - not only does this help with checking there aren't any errors, but is very handy if a player can't turn up, but his character still needs to be run at the session.

Some general advice for DMs?

Be organized - try to have as much of the material you know you'll be using handy for reference. If you know in advance the monsters and NPCS the party will be fighting, take time to be familiar with their abilities. I know I've kicked myself a few times for forgetting about some basic monster ability which would have caused the encounter to turn out very differently than it did (either in the monsters favour, or the PCs).

Also, be prepared - without going totally overboard, always try to be familiar with any pre-published adventures you'll be running. If you're running a homebrew adventure/campaign, be ready for players to take unexpected turns. If there's one thing I've found consistently with PCs, they invariably go off on a tangent you totally weren't expecting at least once every adventure, and often multiple times.

Have conventions in place for the following things:

What happens with cocked dice, or when they fall of the table.
How will rules disputes be handled? What's the maximum time cap on letting a rules dispute eat into game time? IMHO, a set cap is a really good idea.
What happends to PCs when the player can't make it? Does he get run as an NPC, run by another player or teleport off into neverland for the duration (to reappear when the player gets back)?
Who brings snacks to the game? Does everyone pitch in, everyone bring stuff for themselves, or does the host provide them?
Is the gamne venue set, or does it rotate? If it rotates, it's probably a good idea to have a set schedule, to avoid confusion.


...just some things to consider.

[big teej]

I'm probably one of the few players who wishes his DM would be at least a little bit stricter, though mine errs on the extreme end of leniency.

I wouldn't mind auditing at all at the moment- I mean, if he's going to object to something, I'd prefer he did it when I could still take back the money/feats/skill points I invested in it, rather than when I tried to use it.

Mind, anything that slows down play is a bad thing, and a DM checking my numbers on spell costs and magic item prerequisites would mean a healthy hour or two before the start of any game.

heh, I suppose that does make a detail I forgot glaringly obvious.

we're at level 5, and this is the last session of the semester (we're not doing anything 'super' important.)

the session is going to consist of.
A) loot division
B) checking XP gain
C) some role play stuff
D) a 'circus' type set up to keep players busy and happy and engaged
E) some in game 'down time' to take a breather from fighting a dragon, and get any crafting stuff done the party wants, as well as learning teamwork benfits.
F) my players are, almost to a man, new to the game, and I figure any problems they still have in understanding should have cropped up by now (at level 5) so I thought I'd take a looksie at everyone's sheet just to make sure they've got the right amount of spells, at least close to WBL, etc.


I'm totally OK with this. In fact, when I DM, I often request players provide me with regularly updated copies of their charsheets - not only does this help with checking there aren't any errors, but is very handy if a player can't turn up, but his character still needs to be run at the session.

Some general advice for DMs?

Be organized - try to have as much of the material you know you'll be using handy for reference. If you know in advance the monsters and NPCS the party will be fighting, take time to be familiar with their abilities. I know I've kicked myself a few times for forgetting about some basic monster ability which would have caused the encounter to turn out very differently than it did (either in the monsters favour, or the PCs).

Also, be prepared - without going totally overboard, always try to be familiar with any pre-published adventures you'll be running. If you're running a homebrew adventure/campaign, be ready for players to take unexpected turns. If there's one thing I've found consistently with PCs, they invariably go off on a tangent you totally weren't expecting at least once every adventure, and often multiple times.

Have conventions in place for the following things:

What happens with cocked dice, or when they fall of the table.
How will rules disputes be handled? What's the maximum time cap on letting a rules dispute eat into game time? IMHO, a set cap is a really good idea.
What happends to PCs when the player can't make it? Does he get run as an NPC, run by another player or teleport off into neverland for the duration (to reappear when the player gets back)?
Who brings snacks to the game? Does everyone pitch in, everyone bring stuff for themselves, or does the host provide them?
Is the gamne venue set, or does it rotate? If it rotates, it's probably a good idea to have a set schedule, to avoid confusion.


...just some things to consider.

great advice, but I was thinking more along the lines of "responses" to things in the "things that kill fun in a session thread"

perhaps in a
"here's a problem I had. here's how I fixed it, here's how well it worked" format.

[No brains]

One thing a guy who essentially introduced me to D&D recommended haunts me to this day because I feel it killed the DM trust in our group.

I was the DM and I felt all happy I made my own dungeon. Looking back, I viciously railroaded the players into the situation and I'm sure that helped break things down, but I just felt I was giving them a challenge. This isn't what I dwell on.

What I did was have some monsters retreat from the party when the party was fighting a war of attrition with them. The party then made the snap decision to rest in the only room where the monsters could have fled. I decided that the players should feel the pain of the dumb decision by killing the guy who insisted the room was safe, and my 'mentor' agreed. I had the monsters ambush the party when they woke up and the player died when I misruled on a grapple attempt to get him away from the monsters.

Was this wrong for me to do? We weren't especially a close-knit confederation, so maybe I should have taken it easier on them and let them get away with a severe thrashing.

[FreakyCheeseMan]

I suppose I could offer at least a partial solution to one common problem, from a less-explored perspective. :P

The problem being that of the disruptive player- the perspective being that I am (or, hopefully, was) that player.

In my first few games, I tended to be fairly ill-behaved and impulsive, especially when I saw an opportunity to cause some amusing (to me) chaos. Mind, at this point I'm fairly aware of the trouble this causes, but it can be difficult to be self-aware in the middle of an engaging game.

The solution I'm starting to find for this, for myself, is to put more effort into my character's... well, character. Personality, backstory, habits, motivations, frustrations, likes and dislikes among the party, etc.

With all of this developed, I'm much more invested in whichever character I'm playing, and so the urge to do something impulsive is countered by pride in the work I've put into him (or her). By having me be more engaged in the realism of my character, I'm less inclined to abuse that realism, and get more interest/enjoyment out of playing them conservatively, as even minor details can feed into the larger idea.

So, for dealing with disruptive players, you might consider trying to encourage them to roleplay more. The idea I came up with/proposed in one of the other threads is to require in-character explanations if a player wants to take a spell, feat, PRC or item from outside of the core rulebooks. (If you want a spell from Stormwrack, take it, but include in your character's backstory something about him being mentored by a grizzled sea-dog wizard). This ties the urge to munchkin and overpower your character as you develop it mechanically into actual, you know, character development.

Hopefully. :P

[ajkkjjk52]

Especially given that your party is new, I see no problem with an audit. I've audited as a GM and I've been audited as a player and I've never had or recieved any hard feelings.

In my current group (I'm a player) we have one player who tends to make errors due to being new to the game, one who tends to make "errors" in his favor over time, and one who just build ridiculous cheese that makes the GM unhappy. For that reason, spot audits are not uncommon. It doesn't have to be a formal process, just a "Wait, you have +34 to bluff? How does that work?" and see if they can explain it.

One big piece of advice, though, is that you don't have to do all the auditing. Get your other players, especially if you have one or more who are more experienced, to help the others. Ask people to work together on trickier tasks (like determinging synergies). If it's less a GM audit and more a whole group collaboratively error checking, then there's zero chance of hard feelings.

[Darth Stabber]

As a gm, I make it a habit of keeping a "mini-sheet" of each character for a couple of reasons. On the sheet is race, class(es), ability scores, saves, ac, hp, most common attack stats, skill ranks and feats, and a list of magic items. It's not perfect, but I can get most of what it need from just that. It allows me to make a mini-audit on the spot, seemlessly, and if someone losses their sheet I can atleast speed up the recreation process (spell books and spells known are a bit of a pain some times) to about 10 minutes. I am considering keeping a copy of everyone's sheet in my file cabinet just ensure sessions run as smooth as possible. Also the mini sheet gives me the ability to run quick simulations during my plan time, to ensure that the encounters are properly balanced against the party, and ensure every one has something to do. I do a full audit to every character when they level up, it is again seemless, and serves everyone well (especially given two of the players are new and there are a few house rules). So if you are going to audit, look for places and times that make sense for doing it. If you are really good, you can do it in such a way that your players don't even know your auditing. As a note if you have a summoner in the party, make sure to check over the summon's stats, ditto familiars, cohorts, etc. These are easy areas to make mistakes, and easy areas to fudge numbers.

[Gamer Girl]

I've always kept a copy of each characters sheet. This only takes a couple minuets to do, but is a big time saver. As a DM, I never need ask a player 'what is your fort save' or 'what spell is on the white scroll'. We can skip right past that and I can just say 'roll a fort save' or such.

And it's a big help to newbees. When a character with ten ranks in swim, but also in full plate mail, is ready to jump in a lake...you can point out the obvious. After all you don't want to have the character swimming in the lake for like an hour and then get attacked by a monster when they player goes 'wait, how did it bite through my full plate? My AC is 30!"

[Rimeheart]

My biggest etiquette question so far.
How do you leave a group if you do not find their playstyle fun or meshing with your own?



(Edited for spelling failure.)

[Viktyr Gehrig]

I have one player who's better than me at optimization, one player who doesn't know most of the rules, and one player who's dyslexic. If I don't audit sheets on a regular basis, I can't prepare for the first, help the second, or correct the third's errors. The players usually leave their sheets with me between sessions anyway, because I'm better organized, but there's no absence of trust at the table.

[dark.sun.druid]

The players usually leave their sheets with me between sessions anyway...

This is how things work in my game. All of the players leave their character sheets with the DM over the week while we aren't playing. This way, if he needs to, he can audit our sheets without taking any time out of the game. However, the main reason for this, and something else that makes it a good idea in my opinion, is that this way the character sheets never get lost between sessions. This rule isn't strictly enforced (we have one player who takes his sheet with him every week, and another who has most of his magic items recorded digitally), and we sometimes have players take their sheets home for one week to update them or copy them over when the paper in the health bar begins to crumble away. However, I bet this has saved our group from countless lost character headaches.

[Allanimal]

If you know in advance the monsters and NPCS the party will be fighting, take time to be familiar with their abilities.

So True. And when I know they will be fighting the monsters, I like to have their initiative, spot & listen checks, etc. pre-rolled. Makes things go just a little faster.

[McSmack]

My biggest etiquette question so far.
How do you leave a group if you do not find their playstyle fun or meshing with your own?

And now I have to retype my entire post because apparently the undo button just clears out everything but the quote :smallfrown:

Either way I'd say be honest, tell them that your playstyle isn't really meshing with theirs and that your not having fun. The entire purpose of the game is for everyone to have fun. Many people prefer an uncomfortable truth to lying or making vague excuses (what I most often hear from other players.)

Had an issue in a game I was DM'ing recently. Our melee was getting outshined by our carnage-in-the-darkness glaivelock and our ice sorcerer. I was introducing a new character (a bear-riding archery ranger), and decided to allow full attack actions as standard actions so the melee could have something nice.

This didn't go over well with the sorcerer. He vocalized his options and I beat him senseless with my DM screen. My question is should I feel obligated to help pay for his medical bills and if/when I should tell him that he's gonna buy me a new screen. :smalltongue: JK

But seriously I felt kinda bad for introducing a major rule change at the table without dicussing it with the players first. There were some veiled accusations of favoritism since the one who benefited the most from this happened to be my wife (TWF fighter). Though there are at least 3 party members with more than one attack per round.

I'm not saying I wouldn't or shouldn't have done it, but I probably should have at least brought it up for discussion ahead of time.