OOTS #790 - The Discussion Thread

[The Giant]

New comic is up.

[Dragon Elite]

Wow, that was unexpected. First Post!
Loved the "YukYuk" reference. :smalltongue:

And was Qarr really there the whole time? Is the linear guild in with the IFCC?
many cliffhangers are being had.

[Dire Moose]

Wait, Qarr was actually Zz'dtri's familiar the whole time? Has the Linear Guild been spying on them since the evacuation from Azure City?

[Zevox]

Hm, so another Kobold Belkar-opposite. Methinks the Guild is at a full six again after all, then. Question is, will Durkon's opposite be Hilgya, or a new character?

Also, Qarr as Z's familiar. Surprising, but makes sense. Nice way for the IFCC to get another agent into the Guild.

Zevox

[Gift Jeraff]

For a long time I've been speculating Qarr would become Nale's familiar. Close enough. :smallcool:


Wait, Qarr was actually Zz'dtri's familiar the whole time? Has the Linear Guild been spying on them since the evacuation from Azure City?
Zz'dtri says "now," meaning he just got him.

EDIT: I just realized. A badass riding dog is what Belkar wanted so badly. :smallbiggrin:

[Dire Moose]

I predict given the circumstances that Durkon will be ambushed by the Linear Guild's new divine caster and Elan will arrive during the middle of a fight, by the way.

Meanwhile, any ideas on where Nale and Sabine are and what they're up to?

[Lord Raziere]

I spy with my little eye, three brick jokes:

the Kobold having a wild wolf mount, the kind Belkar wanted but got a wiener dog instead.

Qarr being the drows familiar, contrasting V and the Raven

and Yuk Yuk referring to his pet as "Sir Scraggly" whereas Belkar refers to his pet as "Mr. Scruffy." :smallbiggrin:

[gibbo88]

Sweeet. 2 on one now for old V....looking less promising.

[Grumpy-Mcfart]

great comic, as always


love Qarr showing up again

[otakuryoga]

heeeeeeee'ssssss baaaaaaaaack

[Mando Knight]

Kobold, riding a dog, dual-wielding hand crossbows. The most surprising thing about it is how predictable it should have been as an evil-opposites gag.

[Maethirion]

... Well I didn't see that one coming.
Qarr!
Nicely played, Giant.

[Dusk Eclipse]

I know The Giant doesn't usually read the forums collected theories; but I can't help but think this is a reference to those epileptic threes that Quarr had become V's familiar after the Soul Splice arc and was just masquerading as Blackwing.

Still great comic, I really liked the Kobold and Sir. Scraggly.

[TheSummoner]

Heh, 790 was awesome on so many levels...

Adressing the crazy forum discussions on how to free Haley.
Adressing the crazy forum discussions on Linear Guild opposites for Blackwing and Mr. Scruffy.
Yukyuk being almost a perfect opposite for Belkar.
Qarr's reappearance.

Amazing as always, Giant. Can't wait for the next one!

[Gift Jeraff]

I wonder if Zz'dtri knows about the IFCC manipulating Nale. Would parallel how V used to be the only party member Haley shared secrets with.

[silvadel]

Shrink on a scroll -- quickened haste -- stoneskin -- it is amazing just how competent V has become now that V has figured out there are other party members.

[ThePhantom]

Well, this should be interesting. V had a hard time facing Zz'dtri the last time, and now its four on two.

[tcrudisi]

Are we sure that is Qarr? It would make sense if it was ...

I like this version of V. Preparing the defensive spells first... me thinks V is becoming optimized.

[Gift Jeraff]

Also: the "double layers of magic aura" used to be exclusive to the Oracle, IIRC, but now has been seen on Girard's message, the scrying eye, Z's Flesh to Stone, and V's Stoneskin (The diamond dust was of universal significance (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0678.html)!). Maybe it's a general art upgrade of sorts?

[olthar]

Are we sure that is Qarr? It would make sense if it was ...

I like this version of V. Preparing the defensive spells first... me thinks V is becoming optimized.

or at least as optimized as possible for someone who barred conjuration

[Ninjaman]

Awesome one giant. I did not expect that.

[Beowulf DW]

A gunslinging crossbow-slinging Kobold...

Cool.

[blazingshadow]

what was the drow's specialized school by the way? is it transmutation?

[Darthteej]

Not that I don't like the new, monotone-casual, Zzt'Dri, but why isn't he silent-but-deadly Zzt'Dri?

[oball]

Hmm, I hope that Elan doesn't...
...accidentally snap any bits off the Haley statue when throwing it onto a firm surface.

[holywhippet]

Break enchantment is questionable for removing stone to flesh - by the spell description it should not work. The spell summary does say it works on petrification though.

[t209]

Yuk Yuk (probably not related to the previous kobold)!
Is he a ranger? (crossbow and wolf)
P.S-Another happy ending for elan (probably)
-finished depetrifying but forgot about turn giant thingy.

[Ajadea]

Who said that was Qarr? Only so many ways to draw an imp, you know. It is likely, but not necessarily true.

Also, the IFCC has Sabine, who isn't exactly incompetant. Why would they need a second contact in the Linear Guild?

[Cerlis]

pretty sure its Quarr. Since one cant get an imp normally as a familiar. We know for a fact that the Linear guild has been working for the IFCC the entire time (even if only one (or two?) members knew about it). Quarr was hired on.

the only thing i dont think makes sense is why quarr would willingly oppose a wizard hes personally seen Familicide 1/4 of the black dragons in the world.

stupid move Q

[Yendor]

Of course it's Qarr. He's implying they've already met (or would have, if Blackwing had been acknowledged back then).

[Sinfonian]

Break enchantment is questionable for removing stone to flesh - by the spell description it should not work. The spell summary does say it works on petrification though.

RAW or not, there's in-comic precedent for it working, see Durkon unpetrifying Celia.

[Crossfiyah]

pretty sure its Quarr. Since one cant get an imp normally as a familiar. We know for a fact that the Linear guild has been working for the IFCC the entire time (even if only one (or two?) members knew about it). Quarr was hired on.

the only thing i dont think makes sense is why quarr would willingly oppose a wizard hes personally seen Familicide 1/4 of the black dragons in the world.

stupid move Q

...because he knows he can't do an act that incredible again?

[Marxism]

My guess on what's about to happen: V starts playing like a true tier one, PoA's into something absolutely over powered and has them on their knees by the fourth round.

[Gift Jeraff]

Who said that was Qarr? Only so many ways to draw an imp, you know.
Different shade of red, different eye colour, different horns, different tail, different speech balloons. Could even give him/her clothes. Quite a lot of ways.

That argument would work if Qarr was just a one-shot monster with no future role; I think the Giant knows better than to draw someone absolutely identical to a recurring character (not counting that Roy look-alike from the bandit camp).

Also, Qarr's dialogue indicates they both know each other, they just never actually met.

[skim172]

I'm wondering if Qarr is still bound to Vaarsuvius. He did agree to serve V and he was never formally dismissed. If V gives him a command, would he Lawfully be bound to carry it out? The IFCC made clear that Qarr must obey V's commands, even if they lead to his own death. I wonder if that still applies.

[JonestheSpy]

Pretty awesome. The Linear Guild seems to have gotten far more competent. And somewhat chilling to see a new agent of the IFCC enter the picture.

[ricorum]

Well done, Giant. Well done.

[JSSheridan]

Thanks Giant!

[ricorum]

I'm wondering if Qarr is still bound to Vaarsuvius. He did agree to serve V and he was never formally dismissed. If V gives him a command, would he Lawfully be bound to carry it out? The IFCC made clear that Qarr must obey V's commands, even if they lead to his own death. I wonder if that still applies.

Ooh, that's a good thought.

[Deth Muncher]

Fffffffff-

[RMS Oceanic]

I'm paranoid about one thing happening:

Elan accidentally breaking Haley when he goes to unshrink her.

Other than that, Dun dun dun!

[Absol197]

I'm wondering if Qarr is still bound to Vaarsuvius. He did agree to serve V and he was never formally dismissed. If V gives him a command, would he Lawfully be bound to carry it out? The IFCC made clear that Qarr must obey V's commands, even if they lead to his own death. I wonder if that still applies.

Doing some nitpicking, Qarr says he'll help V in the matter of the dragon free of charge, not that he'll assist V forever free of charge. It's likely that offer has already expired.

[Cerlis]

...because he knows he can't do an act that incredible again?

not the point.

the point is that V would do something so horribly destructive without a second thought with Quarr watching. And even if Quarr has seen him turning a new leaf this entire time he knows V is capable of being very lethal, and new when they first met V proceeded to repeatidly attempt to DISENTIGRATE him.

V doesnt need epic level spells to break Quarr down back to his basic items.
And Quarr knows V to be both efficient and Ruthless.

------------------

P.S. I believe the clause in Break Enchantment where it says it CAN dispel things with an instantaneous duration supercedes Dispels magics line where it CANT dispel things with an instantaneous duration. Thus the only thing keeping dispel magic from effecting Flesh to Stone is added in the description of Break enchantment.

We know many parts of the 3.5 books where written poorly.

[Holy_Knight]

I spy with my little eye, three brick jokes:

the Kobold having a wild wolf mount, the kind Belkar wanted but got a wiener dog instead.

and Yuk Yuk referring to his pet as "Sir Scraggly" whereas Belkar refers to his pet as "Mr. Scruffy." :smallbiggrin:

Haha, I noticed those too! Belkar is going to be pissed...

Something I just thought of, too--what if YakYak is the one who kills Belkar? That would be an unexpected end, given the usual precedent of Belkar dispatching and hatifying his kobold adversaries with ease... I'm not sure how likely it is, but it's an interesting idea.

[theNater]

I'm wondering if Qarr is still bound to Vaarsuvius. He did agree to serve V and he was never formally dismissed. If V gives him a command, would he Lawfully be bound to carry it out? The IFCC made clear that Qarr must obey V's commands, even if they lead to his own death. I wonder if that still applies.
I doubt it. When V's family was in danger, Qarr said "I'm on your side here. Let me help. Free of charge." This leaves at least two possible outs for Qarr.

First, Qarr helped V by arranging contact with the IFCC. It could be considered that was V's free help; more help would require a new bargain.

Second, Qarr being on V's side "here" could be taken to mean "in the matter of protecting your mate and children". Under this interpretation, Qarr cannot be compelled to help against Zz'dtri, as Zz'dtri is not threatening V's family.

[Gaius]

Nice to see everyone's favorite imp back in the picture. ^_^ Didn't really expect it, but I'm happy to see it.

A new kobold -- with a callback joke and Mr. Scruffy opposite rolled into one -- just makes it even nicer.

Like others, I wonder who Durkon's opposite will be. Certainly have wondered about Hilgya for ages, and Leeky Windstaff may not be in Nale's good graces (though I wouldn't mind seeing what he and Pompey are up to).

[ghostaxe]

Wait, did Z's turn just get skipped?

1: Z casts attack spell at V
2: V casts Shrink Item from scroll and then Quickened Haste
3: Yukyuk attacks V
4: V casts Stoneskin.

Should Z get another turn before V casts the Stoneskin?

[Absol197]

Wait, did Z's turn just get skipped?

1: Z casts attack spell at V
2: V casts Shrink Item from scroll and then Quickened Haste
3: Yukyuk attacks V
4: V casts Stoneskin.

Should Z get another turn before V casts the Stoneskin?

Zz'dtri's enjoying the show of V being turned into a porcupine by Yukyuk. Also, he is hypnotized by the awesomeness that is Sir Scraggly.

[Porthos]

That.... That ain't good. :smalleek:

[JSSheridan]

Break enchantment is questionable for removing stone to flesh - by the spell description it should not work. The spell summary does say it works on petrification though.

"This spell frees victims from enchantments, transmutations, and curses. Break enchantment can reverse even an instantaneous effect."

Link (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Break_Enchantment)

[ss49]

Where is the rest of the Guild?

Is Nale after his father, brother, or both?

[Porthos]

Break enchantment is questionable for removing stone to flesh - by the spell description it should not work. The spell summary does say it works on petrification though.

This argument was beaten to death five ways from Sunday and back in the last discussion thread. :smallsmile: Even if one wants to ignore the in-comic precedence, the PHB specifically says that Break Enchantment can work in this instance (even if the SRD is unclear).

[TheNovak]

Well, s***.

[Calenestel]

I'm... not so sure it has to be Qarr, to be honest.

Sure, it's possible. I won't be surprised if it IS. But we have way too little evidence to say for sure.

So... much... conclusion jumping... (to quote another good webcomic. :smallwink:)

[Lycan 01]

Well, I totally want to play as that Kobold in my next DnD game... :smallbiggrin:

[thunderclan]

I'm rather curious about what Belkar will turn YukYuk into...Provided he even finds out that there is a Kobold running around.

[Joe22c]

Jayzus! I like this yukyuk fellow; dual crossbows? Reach for the sky 'yeehaw'? A dire dog familiar? BADASS.

Really hope Belkar doesn't turn this one into some sort of hat.

[zimmerwald1915]

I wonder if Yukyuk's head can hold ten gallons...:smallamused:

Did not foresee the return of Qarr, not here, and not as Z's familiar. Does this mean Z took Improved Familiar at some point?

[DrGonzo]

Did not foresee the return of Qarr, not here, and not as Z's familiar. Does this mean Z took Improved Familiar at some point?

Maybe.. Or Qarr is just working with the LG..

[torugo]

I see no signs of damage on V after receiving the lightning from Z. No scratch or lines to show she/he got hurt. Do you think V had a resist buff prepared just in case?

[BlackDragonKing]

Not surprising Quarr would be put in a position with the IFCC's pawns, really, although I'm not liking the worrying implication that V is going to get ganged up on and probably lose until someone comes to rescue him; I was kinda hoping a rematch with ZZ'drit would be a way for V to stand on his own two feet again, but I'm not really feeling that at the moment.

I still don't understand how the son Tarquin raised can be such a dry well creatively. I swear, if it wasn't for how much trouble he gives the order, Nale would look pretty pathetic compared to his dad or Xykon. He still kinda does.

[Ridureyu]

At this rate I'm waiting for Bebop and Rocksteady to make their entrance.

[zimmerwald1915]

Not surprising Quarr would be put in a position with the IFCC's pawns, really, although I'm not liking the worrying implication that V is going to get ganged up on and probably lose until someone comes to rescue him; I was kinda hoping a rematch with ZZ'drit would be a way for V to stand on his own two feet again, but I'm not really feeling that at the moment.
V was never able to stand on her own two feet. Any time she's been up against an opponent one on one she's performed pathetically, both in terms of being able to achieve whatever goal she set for herself and obstructing her opponent's. Being able to stand on her own two feet would be an entirely new experience. Notice that her objective here is simply to keep Z occupied for an unspecified amount of time, and the developments of this comic call strong doubt on her ability to do that.


I still don't understand how the son Tarquin raised can be such a dry well creatively.
Nurture ain't everything. Nale simply isn't up to snuff.

[Absol197]

Well, the attack definitely knocked him around a fair bit, what with the falling to the ground and the "oof!" It's possible that V has a resist energy spell on, but I think it's more likely that V took damage, and the Giant simply didn't put any marks on him, for whatever reason.

[cupkeyk]

YukYuk is probably the most optimal of the three kobolds. Archer ranger on animal companion has lots over Belkar with mobility and DPR in general.

Qarr! Therkla must be avenged! Elan must kill that imp over and over and over again.

[talkamancer]

How many kinds of awsum is todays strip ?

Way to throw a curve ball Giant. Good job.

[Asarlai]

"Gasp!"

Good comic. I'm glad that there was an unexpected attack that didn't screw V over just because it was unexpected.

As usual, nice title.

[factotum]

Things not looking good for V-but then, they're not looking good for the Order generally. If Nale has resurrected his evil opposites theme then they're facing an equal number of opponents, but Haley and Belkar are effectively out of the picture at the moment (one being a lawn ornament, the other being in prison) which gives the LG a numerical advantage. Going to be interesting to see what's happening with Durkon when Elan catches up with him.

[Phishfood]

Why, WHY do I drink coffee while checking oots? it just wastes good coffee.

[zimmerwald1915]

For what it's worth, the last time we saw a character with visible damage, despite several characters experiencing what could easily have been damaging effects, was five strips ago (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0785.html).

[kierthos]

Given the fate of previous Y*ky*k kobolds, I'm betting he's not long for this world. Of course, given that Belkar is currently locked up, he's probably going to have a bit more screen time then he would otherwise have.

And if the Linear Guild does have another divine caster, going after Durkon might not be the wisest choice, considering that he's back at the palace with Malack, who is certainly no pushover. (And not charitably inclined towards Nale or anyone working with him.)

[Asarlai]

Things not looking good for V-but then, they're not looking good for the Order generally. If Nale has resurrected his evil opposites theme then they're facing an equal number of opponents, but Haley and Belkar are effectively out of the picture at the moment (one being a lawn ornament, the other being in prison) which gives the LG a numerical advantage. Going to be interesting to see what's happening with Durkon when Elan catches up with him.

One would assume that Tarquin, Malak, the soldiers, and the EoB in general would assist the Order, so they just need to get help.

[zimmerwald1915]

Given the fate of previous Y*ky*k kobolds, I'm betting he's not long for this world. Of course, given that Belkar is currently locked up, he's probably going to have a bit more screen time then he would otherwise have.

And if the Linear Guild does have another divine caster, going after Durkon might not be the wisest choice, considering that he's back at the palace with Malack, who is certainly no pushover. (And not charitably inclined towards Nale or anyone working with him.)
Indeed, the smartest thing the LG could do at this point is bring all their force to bear on a single isolated OOTSer, isolated taken to mean separated not only from their teammates but also from any feasible external assistence. At the moment, only Elan and V are isolated, and the LG already outnumbers V, while Elan's location is currently unknown. The smart thing for them to do would be to concentrate all the force they can bring to bear, without compromising their other plans, on V. Of course, the IFCC won't let V die, but depending on how much Qarr and Sabine have shared (Sabine wasn't exactly forthcoming to Nale about her alliegence) the LG might not know that.

[Crossfiyah]

not the point.

the point is that V would do something so horribly destructive without a second thought with Quarr watching. And even if Quarr has seen him turning a new leaf this entire time he knows V is capable of being very lethal, and new when they first met V proceeded to repeatidly attempt to DISENTIGRATE him.

V doesnt need epic level spells to break Quarr down back to his basic items.
And Quarr knows V to be both efficient and Ruthless.

------------------

P.S. I believe the clause in Break Enchantment where it says it CAN dispel things with an instantaneous duration supercedes Dispels magics line where it CANT dispel things with an instantaneous duration. Thus the only thing keeping dispel magic from effecting Flesh to Stone is added in the description of Break enchantment.

We know many parts of the 3.5 books where written poorly.

Hugely the point. Your argument stemmed from this singular event, which cannot be repeated. If I see a guy who's an expert with a greataxe sever a guy in half, and then his arm gets chopped off, I'm going to be substantially less afraid of the guy who can no longer use his greataxe now, aren't I?

Besides, clearly what this demonstrates is utmost confidence in Zz'drti's own wizardly abilities.

[LuPuWei]

W00t! (Simply)

Hope we get to know Yukyuk a little better before (and If!) he kicks it.

Also, Qarr looks so happy to be there...

[faustin]

Another opposite reference: Yukyuk uses crossbows (dual ranged weapons )unlike Belkar, who uses dual (dual melee weapons).
And Qarr presence is even more ominous.... for Vaarsuvius; maybe it´s the time to spill V´s soul splice to TOoS?

[Ichneumon]

Since Belkar is going to die, wouldn't that mean that YukYuk, as a true evil opposite, isn't going to die?

Love the comic btw.

[theNater]

"This spell frees victims from enchantments, transmutations, and curses. Break enchantment can reverse even an instantaneous effect."

Link (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Break_Enchantment)
"If the spell is one that cannot be dispelled by dispel magic, break enchantment works only if that spell is 5th level or lower."

We know from past experience that Break Enchantment can reverse Flesh to Stone in the OotSverse. But by the spell description, it's a no go, as Flesh to Stone is level 6.

[ThePhantasm]

Hey, that kobold has a riding dog! Now that's no fair!!

[Asarlai]

Hey, that kobold has a riding dog! Now that's no fair!!

Belkar does not get to unleash the fury, so YukYuk does get to unleash the fury. Opposites!

[DrGonzo]

Hey, that kobold has a riding dog! Now that's no fair!!

Well, Belkar used to have one too, so does that make them truly opposites? :smalltongue:

EDIT: kinda ss'd..

[zimmerwald1915]

"If the spell is one that cannot be dispelled by dispel magic, break enchantment works only if that spell is 5th level or lower."

We know from past experience that Break Enchantment can reverse Flesh to Stone in the OotSverse. But by the spell description, it's a no go, as Flesh to Stone is level 6.
In the PHB Break Enchantment is stated to work on petrification effects. I wonder if there's some kind of cosmic interval to people's bringing this up.

[Anarion]

Interestingly, V can't be in any real danger of dying because the IFCC has explicitly said that they want him alive (or at any rate, they didn't want Xykon killing V, which strongly implies they want him alive). V's capture is one possibility. Personally, however, I'm hoping that V shows the advantages of his new thoughtfulness towards magic and manages to take Yukyuk out of the fight then best Z in a duel.

V beating Z would have a couple significant points for the narrative. First, it would demonstrate that V is a powerful and independently capable character, which would make V's eventual (forced) betrayal much more threatening. Second, I think it would be a tense and epic fight with a happy conclusion if V managed to win. I would be dissatisfied if V always had to get saved by someone else from every fight, although having someone interfere to get rid of Yukyuk would be fine.

Additionally, regarding Yukyuk, I wonder if Belkar will be quite so capable of handling him as he was with the previous two kobolds. The problem is, Belkar has just shown signs of true character growth, and this might lead him to a minor hesitation when fighting Yukyuk, unlike his previous ability to completely destroy Yokyok and Yikyik. We're obviously influenced by the prophecies that Belkar is going to die, but who better than his evil opposite kobold to do the deed?

[Garwain]

At first the arena story arc was a bit meh for me, but I'm really enjoying the last few strips. Quite amazing how Rich can come up with plot twist the whole community couldn't predict. Very clever and very enjoyable.

PS: yukyuk seems competent, please don't kill Belkar. He just is no hat material.

[St Fan]

Wait, Mr. Scruffy was around in the last page. That's 4 on 3, not 4 on 2, assuming the cat join the fight. Wonder if he share Belkar's natural enimity with kobolds...

PS: I'm not getting Blackwing's "Little Orphan Annie" reference. Anyone care to enlighten me?

[Aerysil]

Oh no! It's.. the IMP!

[ThePhantasm]

Belkar does not get to unleash the fury, so YukYuk does get to unleash the fury. Opposites!

Because of this, YukYuk is probably going to get FED to his riding dog.

With a name like YukYuk, he almost has to die either by eating something or being eaten. . .

[Porthos]

In the PHB Break Enchantment is stated to work on petrification effects.

Not only that, but it specifically mentions Flesh to Stone by name.

So specific trumps general, as the old saying goes.


I wonder if there's some kind of cosmic interval to people's bringing this up.

I think it's more that some people kinda forget about the existence of the PHB and just run to one of the SRD Wikis. :smallwink:

[Burner28]

First the dark elf then Quarr?

[HappyBlanket]

For what it's worth, the last time we saw a character with visible damage, despite several characters experiencing what could easily have been damaging effects, was five strips ago (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0785.html).

Actually, I think it was just Roy and Thog who might have taken any damage. That first hit kinda looked like it should have done damage though.

[Iruka]

Not that I don't like the new, monotone-casual, Zzt'Dri, but why isn't he silent-but-deadly Zzt'Dri?

But then, V is not as super wordy as in the beginning, at least that's my impression.

[Icedaemon]

For a long time I've been speculating Qarr would become Nale's familiar. Close enough. :smallcool:

Oh please, like Nale could muster anything remotely cool for himself. Remarkable team-building skill given his string of failures, but that can be attributed to a higher, wiser power controlling his fate.

Sabine does not count because she is using him, not vice versa.


Zz'dtri says "now," meaning he just got him.

EDIT: I just realized. A badass riding dog is what Belkar wanted so badly. :smallbiggrin:

Oh. Nice catch.


And if the Linear Guild does have another divine caster, going after Durkon might not be the wisest choice, considering that he's back at the palace with Malack, who is certainly no pushover. (And not charitably inclined towards Nale or anyone working with him.)

Malack saves the day! Would be nice. Would toss more moral ambiguity into the nature of Tarquin's band - Are several of them neutral like Malack? Is Tarquin the most villainous of the lot, or does one of the weepy or sweaty manipulators eclipse him in that regard? Do they have a token good member?

[Wolfram]

Giant missed a golden opportunity to make a 'Sympathy for the Devil' reference.

[Agi Hammerthief]

meh,
here was me, hopeing we'd see the Linear Guild screwing around (and up) without actually encountering the OotS again for much longer.

[Porthos]

Oh please, like Nale could muster anything remotely cool for himself. Remarkable team-building skill given his string of failures, but that can be attributed to a higher, wiser power controlling his fate.

As has been noted in more than a couple of threads, Nale is not nearly as incompetent as some people think.

Of course, people once thought Xykon was incompetent. But then the Bouncy Ball of Insanity (not to mention almost the entierty of Start of Darkness) changed a few people's minds.

Really, I tend to think that people underestimate Nale due to the fact he's lost twice and that he acts like a Smug Snake (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/SmugSnake). And very few people like Smug Snakes. :smallwink:

But when one looks at it with less of a jaundiced eye, the only reason Nale has lost was because of a Nat 20/Ghostly Prophecy and because Elan stumbled upon a rather obscure third party sourcebook.

Is Nale as good of a planner as he thinks? No.
Is Nale as bad of an planner as some posters think he is? Again, no. :smallwink:

[theNater]

It may be that whatever spell that is doesn't hurt very much. Remember, we first saw it used when Z and V were down to "lesser spells", due to having adventured all day. So it's probably not very potent in the first place, and V has leveled several times(and thus gained more hit points) in the interim.

If the spell is doing the same damage it was doing way back then(not unreasonable, as many low level spells stop scaling eventually), it might just be that V isn't injured enough to show wounds.

[Lord Herman]

Hee. "What kind of a stupid name would "Yakyak" be, anyway?"

[Killer Angel]

Am I the only one who thinks that Zz'dtri is wasting precious time talking, while V. casts spells?
(even if it's perfect from the narrative pov of the strip... :smalltongue:)

[yldenfrei]

Interestingly, V can't be in any real danger of dying because the IFCC has explicitly said that they want him alive (or at any rate, they didn't want Xykon killing V, which strongly implies they want him alive)...

IFCC's interest in V's well-being extends only to his soul-splicing duration. They wanted him to survive the "V vs Xykon" match so that they could prove the viability of their marketing plan. Beyond that, I'd say they would rather have interest in V's hastened demise so they could collect. No plot armor for V here. :smallsmile:

As for the comic, I chuckled at Yukyuk, but cheered mightily for Qarr! :smallbiggrin:

[Porthos]

IFCC's interest in V's well-being extends only to his soul-splicing duration. They wanted him to survive the "V vs Xykon" match so that they could prove the viability of their marketing plan. Beyond that, I'd say they would rather have interest in V's hastened demise so they could collect. No plot armor for V here. :smallsmile:


What makes you think that V is of any use to them dead? :smallamused:

BTW: That whole "marketing thing"? I hope you'll pardon me if I don't exactly take everything the IFCC says about their plans at face value. :smallwink:

[Calenestel]

Again: When it comes to the imp's identity:

So... much... conclusion jumping. :smalleek:

[Rendel Nep]

I'm sort of wondering if Belkar might actually let Yukyuk live. He gets an arch nemesis and it might look good for his character development

[Porthos]

Again: When it comes to the imp's identity:

So... much... conclusion jumping. :smalleek:

What possible other conclusion could possibly be made? :smallconfused:

No, really. I'd like to know what other imps the OotS are familiar with. :smallsmile:

[Anarion]

IFCC's interest in V's well-being extends only to his soul-splicing duration. They wanted him to survive the "V vs Xykon" match so that they could prove the viability of their marketing plan. Beyond that, I'd say they would rather have interest in V's hastened demise so they could collect. No plot armor for V here. :smallsmile:


I have to disagree here. Although the IFCC told V that the soul splice was purely for their proof of concept, the fact that they explicitly say "If the elf dies here, this whole thing was a huge waste of time" suggests that they have plans for a living V in the future. The popular forum guess is that V's assumption that the soul splice only applies after death is incorrect and actually the IFCC gets ~40 minutes between them to take control of V while still alive, probably to interfere with one of the gates.

Also, the proof of concept statement was in relation to killing the ABD, and no mention was made of Xykon at any point while making the deal, so the IFCC projections that V would probably attack Xykon can't be related to their sale to V that the deal was their proof of concept, since they never brought it up.

[Calenestel]

What possible other conclusion could possibly be made? :smallconfused:

No, really. I'd like to know what other imps the OotS are familiar with. :smallsmile:

That Z got another imp as his familiar, of course.
Now, I wouldn't be surprised if it WERE Qarr. Far from it, it's logical. But the thing is that we have NO proof ot it being Qarr yet. His connection with the IFCC is purely circumstantial evidence and not proof.

The fact that we have seen no other imps in the comic before is even weaker evidence since there should be a LOT of the little buggers in the Nine Hells and ANY of them would be happy to leave for the Prime to wreak a little havoc (and not being kicked around by the bigger meanie heads living there).
So while it's logical it's still logic built on circumstances that PROVE nothing. Ergo: Half the posts here are really jumping to conclusions. :smallannoyed:

[Edhelras]

"If the spell is one that cannot be dispelled by dispel magic, break enchantment works only if that spell is 5th level or lower."

We know from past experience that Break Enchantment can reverse Flesh to Stone in the OotSverse. But by the spell description, it's a no go, as Flesh to Stone is level 6.

Actually I was among those making lengthy discussions on this topic after the previous comic. I was made clear to me when I brought the question to the rules discussion thread in the Role-Playing forum: See Q51 and subsequent discussion in this link (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=196174&page=5).

The basic point here is that the actual description of the Break enchantment spell in the printed version of the PHB - and not the description in the SRD - specifies that this spell can reverse the Flesh to Stone spell. Since it's specified, it doesn't matter whether it should or should not be able to reverse it, the rule says it does.

But I think it's fair to discuss this, because as many have pointed out, Break enchantment shouldn't be able to reverse instantaneous spells that are higher than level 5 (and Flesh to Stone is lvl 6). So IMO it's just beneficial to have this kind of discussion, as it's both 1) inspiring readers to look into the rules and get familiar with how they should work and 2) proving the point that it is actually useful to look into that old book (PHB) once in a while, not just searching the web/SRD. At least I came out the wiser from this discussion.

[Porthos]

That Z got another imp as his familiar, of course.
Now, I wouldn't be surprised if it WERE Qarr. Far from it, it's logical. But the thing is that we have NO proof ot it being Qarr yet. His connection with the IFCC is purely circumstantial evidence and not proof.

The fact that we have seen no other imps in the comic before is even weaker evidence since there should be a LOT of the little buggers in the Nine Hells and ANY of them would be happy to leave for the Prime to wreak a little havoc (and not being kicked around by the bigger meanie heads living there).
So while it's logical it's still logic built on circumstances that PROVE nothing. Ergo: Half the posts here are really jumping to conclusions. :smallannoyed:

Ignoring the arguments of "it makes complete narrative sense" and "it'd be a pretty silly narrative concept to bring in an identical looking imp to Qarr but who isn't Qarr" there is the "I don't believe we've ever been formally introduced" line. This line implies a strong degree of familiarity with the Order in general but not Blackwing specifically.

This person sounds like Qarr, acts like Qarr, and looks like Qarr. Why on earth shouldn't we presume this is Qarr? To put it another way, this is nothing like the situation with the fake Xykons. Because in that situation we were given an immediate clue that the Xykon we saw was a fake (the personality was totally wrong).

But here? Here we have no such clue. The English phrase about ducks (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duck_test) comes to mind right about now for some reason.

It's good to have an open mind. But it shouldn't be so open that, well, you know. :smallwink:

[Crossfiyah]

That Z got another imp as his familiar, of course.
Now, I wouldn't be surprised if it WERE Qarr. Far from it, it's logical. But the thing is that we have NO proof ot it being Qarr yet. His connection with the IFCC is purely circumstantial evidence and not proof.

The fact that we have seen no other imps in the comic before is even weaker evidence since there should be a LOT of the little buggers in the Nine Hells and ANY of them would be happy to leave for the Prime to wreak a little havoc (and not being kicked around by the bigger meanie heads living there).
So while it's logical it's still logic built on circumstances that PROVE nothing. Ergo: Half the posts here are really jumping to conclusions. :smallannoyed:

And others can't see the forest for the trees.

[TheBST]

So while it's logical it's still logic built on circumstances that PROVE nothing. Ergo: Half the posts here are really jumping to conclusions. :smallannoyed:

*sigh* Consider this: why would Rich introduce a completely new imp, so far unrelated to the story and characters, as the last panel reveal? What dramatic purpose would that serve?

'Introduccciiiiinnnngggg.....

New Guy who looks, talks and behaves exactly like a previous character who's been set-up to assist the Linear Guild but is in fact totally not that guy- just for narrative inconvenience!'

There is no 'jump'. It's a conclusion we've stepped into. Because the other possible step would be blatantly stupid.

[theNater]

Actually I was among those making lengthy discussions on this topic after the previous comic. I was made clear to me when I brought the question to the rules discussion thread in the Role-Playing forum: See Q51 and subsequent discussion in this link (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=196174&page=5).

The basic point here is that the actual description of the Break enchantment spell in the printed version of the PHB - and not the description in the SRD - specifies that this spell can reverse the Flesh to Stone spell. Since it's specified, it doesn't matter whether it should or should not be able to reverse it, the rule says it does.

But I think it's fair to discuss this, because as many have pointed out, Break enchantment shouldn't be able to reverse instantaneous spells that are higher than level 5 (and Flesh to Stone is lvl 6). So IMO it's just beneficial to have this kind of discussion, as it's both 1) inspiring readers to look into the rules and get familiar with how they should work and 2) proving the point that it is actually useful to look into that old book (PHB) once in a while, not just searching the web/SRD. At least I came out the wiser from this discussion.
The SRD was the source JSSheridan cited, so that's what I used in my response.

And, if I wanted to get nitpicky about it, I could argue that Flesh to Stone is merely an example of an instantaneous effect, not an instantaneous effect which can be ended by Break Enchantment. Fortunately, there is no reason to do so, because we know from strip #70 that it works in the OotSverse, and I'm not playing in a 3.0 or 3.5 game now or in the foreseeable future.

[Athaniar]

Wow. The awesome twists just keep coming. First Zz'dtri, and now a new kobold AND Quarr? Giant, you are the master.

[Robster]

I have been reading OotS for several years now, but this strip's title actually got me to register and tell the giant how utterly hillarious i found it.

Literally got me laughing tears there...and is guaranteed to produce another distracting running gag on our (german-speaking) gaming table.

Thx for that. Duh

[Neopolis]

Well, I guess he found another mortal ass to glue his lips to.

[Red XIV]

But when one looks at it with less of a jaundiced eye, the only reason Nale has lost was because of a Nat 20/Ghostly Prophecy and because Elan stumbled upon a rather obscure third party sourcebook.
And because he was too egotistical to refrain from bragging about his own intellect while pretending to be somebody else (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0397.html).

[Calenestel]

Ignoring the arguments of "it makes complete narrative sense" and "it'd be a pretty silly narrative concept to bring in an identical looking imp to Qarr but who isn't Qarr" there is the "I don't believe we've ever been formally introduced" line. This line implies a strong degree of familiarity with the Order in general but not Blackwing specifically.

This person sounds like Qarr, acts like Qarr, and looks like Qarr. Why on earth shouldn't we presume this is Qarr? To put it another way, this is nothing like the situation with the fake Xykons. Because in that situation we were given an immediate clue that the Xykon we saw was a fake (the personality was totally wrong).

But here? Here we have no such clue. The English phrase about ducks (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duck_test) comes to mind right about now for some reason.

It's good to have an open mind. But it shouldn't be so open that, well, you know. :smallwink:

(And other. but Porthos was the one I started to discuss this with and he is the one giving the most level headed response too. So the rest: just follow along. :smallwink:)

The case of what makes narrative sense is completely correct and what I consider the STRONGEST of the circumstantial arguments pointing to this in fact being Qarr. As I said before: I find it LOGICAL but not proven.
Maybe-Qarr's one line so far is also a good indication. But it could just be something he said with no other meaning than that. I'm not sure, but at least the swedish equivalent of the phrase CAN be used when you meet strangers as well as people you've seen but never talked to before. Are you saying that is not how it's done in english? If so I admit that point completely. :smalltongue:

About sounding, acting and looking like Qarr, however I disagree.
We have NO idea how he sounds.
We have VERY little to go on when it comes to how he acts. I won't agree to that being in any way conclusive.
We have the looks, sure. But it's a stick figure comic and while the Giant is a wizard with the medium and could easily make two imps look not-the-same it's still inconclusive, albeit the strongest indication of this being Qarr.
I'm still not convinced, although I'm freely admitting that this might, and probably will, prove to be Qarr.

No, we have no indication about this being a fake Qarr. But that's not my point. I'm not saying: "This is a fake Qarr to throw the Order a curve ball". I'm hardly even saying this might not be Qarr. :smallbiggrin:
But I AM saying that: "This MIGHT not be Qarr, this might be a random imp bound by Improved Familiar to be Z's familiar so as to mirror V and take away hir advantage of having one. But it's probably Qarr."
(I just don't like conclusion jumping).

And yes, I tend to overthink things. But I've learned to find entertainment in that. :smallbiggrin:

Also:
@Crossfiyah: If this doesn't prove that I CAN see the forest then there's not much I can do for you, I'm afraid. :smallannoyed:

@BST: Saw your post when I was almost done with the above and I don't have the energy to rewrite. :smallwink:
Good point. I admit the case of it being Qarr just got stronger and that you at least didn't jump.
But considering the way most other posts about this being Qarr have been laid out I have the sneaking suspicion that you're in the minority. :smallamused:

[Burner28]

I'm sort of wondering if Belkar might actually let Yukyuk live. He gets an arch nemesis and it might look good for his character development


Nah I really doubt it. Just because Belkar did oone good deed for its own sake it does not mean that Belkar will turn kinder. Also ironically, his fake character development is his real development in the sense that no longer does he act Stupid Evil.

[Ancalagon]

Well, the attack definitely knocked him around a fair bit, what with the falling to the ground and the "oof!" It's possible that V has a resist energy spell on, but I think it's more likely that V took damage, and the Giant simply didn't put any marks on him, for whatever reason.

They're still in the warmup-phase. No significant damage is dealt during that.

[Hardcore]

Enjoyed the comic immensely.

[Caractacus]

Giant missed a golden opportunity to make a 'Sympathy for the Devil' reference.

Another one?



I have been reading OotS for several years now, but this strip's title actually got me to register and tell the giant how utterly hillarious i found it.

Literally got me laughing tears there...and is guaranteed to produce another distracting running gag on our (german-speaking) gaming table.

Thx for that. Duh

Yeah, it's a nice line, ain't it?

I had failed to look deeper into the title and missed the connection to the final line of the comic.

Thank YOU!

[Nero24200]

It could just be that the amount of damage taken was pretty trivial. They are meant to be high level characters after all - they can take a bolt of lightning or two and be fine.

[theNater]

We have NO idea how he sounds.
We know what Qarr's speech balloons look like, which is the way one would represent how a character sounds in a comic. As far as I'm aware, no other critter to date has had the same color of speech balloon as Qarr; Lien even refers to it as his "distinct speech pattern" (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0584.html).

[Ancalagon]

Vaarsuvius has 4 + 14 * 2 + 15 * con_mod HPs. That's like... 60ish HPs.

Zz'dtri is at least 11th, probably also around 15th level, therefore a Lightning Bolt does 10d6. That's like 30 on average. Plus the sneak attacks from Kobold#3. The damage should REALLY show, actually, Vaarsuvius should be close to death.
I assumed a con_mod of +2, which already is nicely high. If it's only a +1, Vaarsuivus has a real problem.

In all cases: IF the damage was received as it should, Vaarsuvius should show some dmg.

edit: Class and Level Geekery lists V's con as max 12. So we have 30ish to 45ish to HPs on his side. If he's not dead he should already be very close to it.
Even if he made the ref-save on the lightning (art seems to indicate othervise) he received a lot of damage already. If Kobold#3 is only 9th level, each of the sneak attacks did an extra of +5d6 (so on a normal weapon, each attack did like 6d6). Vaarsuvius can be happy to have plot armour!

[Dr. Simon]

PS: I'm not getting Blackwing's "Little Orphan Annie" reference. Anyone care to enlighten me?

It's a reference to the old Little Orphan Annie (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Little_Orphan_Annie) cartoon strip, where the characters all have freaky pupil-less eyes. Follow the link and see for yourself. Borderline nightmare fuel, if you ask me!

[Calenestel]

We know what Qarr's speech balloons look like, which is the way one would represent how a character sounds in a comic. As far as I'm aware, no other critter to date has had the same color of speech balloon as Qarr; Lien even refers to it as his "distinct speech pattern" (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0584.html).

A) But speech balloon colours are shared by those with the same subtype (or whatever it is, all undead has the same kind).
B) Qarr's speech might be distinct but his speech baloons aren't. At least I see no difference between Qarr and the huge devil further down that very comic.

Also. We only know something about how the imp in the latest comic sounds IF it is Qarr. So it cannot be used as an argument for this being Qarr.
(Which I don't really doubt anymore)

[Woodsman]

It's just one twist after another.

I'm with V: the kobold wasn't surprising, but Qarr being Z's familiar? Well, OK, maybe not too surprising, but I wasn't quite expecting it.

[NegativeFifteen]

Scruffy is going to kill Qarr. No doubt in my mind.

[KillItWithFire]

Wow, V just taking charge. Looks like he has been able to get over his impulsivity. Good for you. Good luck taking on a wizzy and a kobold though. :smallbiggrin:

[CoffeeIncluded]

...Qarr. Oh my god. :smalleek:

[NegativeFifteen]

How was Blackwing able to point while flying?

[NegativeFifteen]

I think it's the laws of plot over logic. It's pretty clear the Giant is probably going to be using V a lot in the coming strips for combat, and doesn't want to make hir seem hurt this early.

[Mordae]

Elan's been isolated from his friends. Cue Nale's confrontational entrance... Looking forward to whatever new trick he has up his sleeve.

[some guy]

Not only is Yuk-yuk a ranged dual wielding riding-dog riding kobold as opposed to Belkar (mostly) melee dual wielding ranger with a cat, he is a ranger-rogue as opposed to Belkar being a ranger-barbarian.

Nice.

[NegativeFifteen]

Not only is Yuk-yuk a ranged dual wielding riding-dog riding kobold as opposed to Belkar (mostly) melee dual wielding ranger with a cat, he is a ranger-rogue as opposed to Belkar being a ranger-barbarian.

Nice.

The confrontation is going to be epic.

[martianmister]

I think Yukyuk will be the one who killed Belkar...

[martianmister]

I see no signs of damage on V after receiving the lightning from Z. No scratch or lines to show she/he got hurt. Do you think V had a resist buff prepared just in case?

It isn't a lightning, probably a home-made spell...

[Dancing_Fox]

Ok. Putting aside the damage for one moment.


Can someone explain the timing?

As in, V. gets zapped, has long chats (free actions yeah, but still pretty decent chats which might require a turn), does stuff . . . and what is Z doing all this time?

Chilling out?

I would have expected follow-up zapping or actions from Z. while Elan and V. interacted and don't see it.

Any theories? Preparing a bigger attack? Out of range? Giving time for allies to get in position?

Ta.

[T.G. Oskar]

Hmm...it seems there will be character development for the Linear Guild!

Although...not sure how the development of the story thus far will work out. For starters:

V is now more mature. Between the first battle with Zz'tdri to this one, you can almost touch it. In their first conflict, where Zz'tdri had the upper hand until V pretty much cheated, V was rather impatient. Now, he's unnervingly calm, and his choice of spells shows that. The fact that the spells he had thus far really play to the idea of "Batman Wizard" may lead V to a stunning victory. That, or Z will lose it's familiar to a Heightened Twinned Split Ray Maximized Empowered Evil Outsider Bane Disintegrate powered by V's spite.

On the other hand, Belkar is now a team player, even if more of a "player" than anything (good grief, that's a mighty pun if I have ever seen one!). Compared to last time, where slaying Yikyik and Yakyak was so easy, I think the Belkster will pretty much ignore this and deal with the others in exchange. Probably, instead of going for Yukyuk and turning him into yet another chunky salsa container, he'll probably cheap-shot Z (which V might not even care, and even appreciate). Still...dying now? The oracle has been awfully right on his predictions, but just how many times has Belkar survived something that should have killed him? His death will be when he thinks of himself as invincible, because plot demands so.

Now, realizing Z and a Y-kobold is around; does that mean Durkon's love interest Hilgya will return, or does that mean Durkon and the priest have been sharing information regarding their own enemies? It would definitely be interesting to see two opposites that aren't really willing to face each other, only to see Hilgya return and screw Nale's plans just by disrupting the delicate balance the Linear Guild has of carefully-sought opposites to halt OotS.

[theNater]

A) But speech balloon colours are shared by those with the same subtype (or whatever it is, all undead has the same kind).
B) Qarr's speech might be distinct but his speech baloons aren't. At least I see no difference between Qarr and the huge devil further down that very comic.
Wow, that's embarrassing. I very carefully checked all three members of the IFCC, and completely forgot about that guy.

Also. We only know something about how the imp in the latest comic sounds IF it is Qarr. So it cannot be used as an argument for this being Qarr.
(Which I don't really doubt anymore)
Well, by the speech balloons, we know this imp has some vocal characteristics in common with Qarr. However, the big guy proves that it isn't unique.

[Calenestel]

Wow, that's embarrassing. I very carefully checked all three members of the IFCC, and completely forgot about that guy.

Well, by the speech balloons, we know this imp has some vocal characteristics in common with Qarr. However, the big guy proves that it isn't unique.

:smallbiggrin:

Well. This doesn't prove that it ISN'T Qarr either.
But then, I never tried to say that. :smallbiggrin:

[Valley]

It's not over till Mr. Scruffy enters the fight!

[Mutant Sheep]

I only started reading this comic around #700, and seeing the Linear Guild in updates is so awesome. So happy. :smallsmile:

[TheSummoner]

And because he was too egotistical to refrain from bragging about his own intellect while pretending to be somebody else (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0397.html).

Ego is Nale's biggest flaw, so that is to be expected. Hell, Tarquin even spelled it out earlier in the arc (not digging for the quote, but something about Nale caring about everyone knowing HE was winning more than actually winning).

Despite his ego, Nale is fairly competent and threatening. Hes lost three times...

In the Dungeon of Dorukan where he was beaten by plot a prophecy in a situation where he would've otherwise walked away the victor.

In Cliffport where being defeated was part of his plan. Everything went perfectly here, so you can't count it against him.

In Azure City where he would've had Elan and Haley beaten if not been for the timely entrance of Durkon and V (While Elan may have had the upper hand over Nale this time, he still had Thog and Sabine with him and Haley had already taken quite a beating). Nale's inability to keep his mouth shut made it obvious which twin was really the evil one, but he had already lost by that point.

Yes, he is far less of a threat than HE thinks he is... He's an egomanica as we all know... But give the guy a bit of credit. He's nowhere near harmless.

[Yana]

Since people have been wondering so much recently about the possibilites of Belkar's demise, I'd say we finally have a means that is suitably poetic.

Belkar slaughtered Yuk Yuk's predecessors Yik Yik and Yok Yok (well, he didn't kill the latter, but he caused the death of the Good kobold) with little effort. Perhaps now is the time for the tables to be turned and let the kobolds end Belkar.

Besides, I bet the Oracle would enjoy this outcome far more than any other potential death of Belkar's, save the one where the Oracle kills Belkar himself.

Edit: Of course, this being The Giant, and also given the way things have been going of late... I really really doubt that he'll take such an obvious solution. I mean, if I can pick up on something such as this, he certainly has.

[Ancalagon]

As in, V. gets zapped, has long chats (free actions yeah, but still pretty decent chats which might require a turn), does stuff . . . and what is Z doing all this time?

This is nothing to ponder about... it's the usual "one word or novel of free speech per combat round" that happens to OotS-characters (and PCs in general) all the time...

[Kgw]

... and everyone is riding a war-dog, except Belkar.

As for the linear guild, is really clever showing up in Tarkin's home, where they're classified as "#1 public enemy" and while he can appreciate Elan, he feel no parent love for his other son... and he has an army to use.

[Blaznak]

Huh! V has a familiar? (Ok, sorry, I'm about 600 panels late for that joke...)

[theNater]

Vaarsuvius has 4 + 14 * 2 + 15 * con_mod HPs. That's like... 60ish HPs.

Zz'dtri is at least 11th, probably also around 15th level, therefore a Lightning Bolt does 10d6. That's like 30 on average. Plus the sneak attacks from Kobold#3. The damage should REALLY show, actually, Vaarsuvius should be close to death.
I assumed a con_mod of +2, which already is nicely high. If it's only a +1, Vaarsuivus has a real problem.

In all cases: IF the damage was received as it should, Vaarsuvius should show some dmg.

edit: Class and Level Geekery lists V's con as max 12. So we have 30ish to 45ish to HPs on his side. If he's not dead he should already be very close to it.
Even if he made the ref-save on the lightning (art seems to indicate othervise) he received a lot of damage already. If Kobold#3 is only 9th level, each of the sneak attacks did an extra of +5d6 (so on a normal weapon, each attack did like 6d6). Vaarsuvius can be happy to have plot armour!
Your analysis assumes two things which we do not know.

First, the spell damage you calculate is based on the assumption that the spell Zz'dtri used was Lightning Bolt. But lightning spells tend to be colored white, regardless of the caster's colors. This looks more like the effect Zz'dtri used way back in #65, when both of our wizards were out of high(and even mid) level spells. If it's some kind of funky version of Burning Hands, we're looking at something more like 10 damage.

Second, you assume that Yukyuk is a 9th level rogue. If he's taken a sprinkle of rogue, like Belkar has taken a sprinkle of barbarian, his sneak attack might be just one or two dice. On a "normal" weapon with two dice of sneak attack per weapon, that's 6d6 total, average 18 or so. At minimum, he might be using kobold-sized hand crossbows and just have one die of sneak attack, for a 2d3 + 2d6 damage roll, and that'll average out to around 9 damage.

While being hit by those things probably wasn't fun, it's certainly possible that V is still well over half health.

Ok. Putting aside the damage for one moment.


Can someone explain the timing?

As in, V. gets zapped, has long chats (free actions yeah, but still pretty decent chats which might require a turn), does stuff . . . and what is Z doing all this time?

Chilling out?

I would have expected follow-up zapping or actions from Z. while Elan and V. interacted and don't see it.

Any theories? Preparing a bigger attack? Out of range? Giving time for allies to get in position?

Ta.
Let's look at what V did(aside from the talking, we'll assume it was free this round).

1:Gets zapped. This is Zz'dtri's action, and he presumably ends his turn here.

2:Got out a scroll. This is normally a move action.

3:Cast Shrink Item. This is a standard action.

4:Cast a Quickened Haste. Quickening a spell makes it a swift action.

5:Flew back up into position. Another move action.

6:Got shot. This is Yukyuk's action, meaning V's turn has ended.

So V hasn't taken two turns, unless a second turn is required for that second move action. If V has found some feat or magic item that allows drawing a scroll as a free action(which would be good for a wizard), then it's just one turn and Zz'dtri's turn should be coming up after Yukyuk finishes.

[Kish]

Ok. Putting aside the damage for one moment.


Can someone explain the timing?

As in, V. gets zapped, has long chats (free actions yeah, but still pretty decent chats which might require a turn), does stuff . . . and what is Z doing all this time?

Chilling out?

I would have expected follow-up zapping or actions from Z. while Elan and V. interacted and don't see it.

Any theories? Preparing a bigger attack? Out of range? Giving time for allies to get in position?

Ta.
Talking is a free action. Shrink Item is Vaarsuvius' action in the round where Zz'dtri zapped him. The other spell is quickened.

[SPoD]

"Spell that deals electricity damage" is not necessarily "Lightning Bolt." It could be a 1st or 2nd level spell that deals less damage. And the sneak attacks happened in the back, where we can't really see the wounds.

And it doesn't really matter anyway. He doesn't have to draw every scratch for us to know V has taken damage.

[Ancalagon]

No matter what spells and sneak attacks were used: The point is there should have been some visible wound-effect - unless Vaasuvius sucks it up due to plot.

Which is fine by me, btw.

[theNater]

No matter what spells and sneak attacks were used: The point is there should have been some visible wound-effect - unless Vaasuvius sucks it up due to plot.

Which is fine by me, btw.
There probably are visible wounds on V's back, where the arrows hit. We just haven't got a clear view of V's back since Yukyuk fired.

[harmsc12]

Okay, the riding dog I expected. The little devil thing as a familiar? Not so much.

[Roderick_BR]

Wait, Qarr was actually Zz'dtri's familiar the whole time? Has the Linear Guild been spying on them since the evacuation from Azure City?
Assuming he was working with that guy from Azure city for a long time, I'd say he was not Zz's familiar before. He's probably got the new job recently.
Now, why he's Zz's familiar now, it's another story. Maybe those demons that proposed him work saw the Linear Guild as worth to keep tabs on and told him to approach them (and that's not taking in account Sabine's bosses) ?

[Ancalagon]

Wounds usually do not work like that in the comic.

[Lurkmoar]

Nice strip. Looking forward what happens to our rag tag bunch of misfits next!

[Themrys]

I like V's new fighting style - it's much more interesting. And I like garden-ornament-Haley...I hope Elan doesn't break her - literally, this time. :smallwink:

[Yendor]

Now, why he's Zz's familiar now, it's another story. Maybe those demons that proposed him work saw the Linear Guild as worth to keep tabs on and told him to approach them (and that's not taking in account Sabine's bosses) ?

Er, those are Sabine's bosses. They've already mentioned the Linear Guild are their pawns.

[ThePhantasm]

Scruffy vs. riding dog, who will win?

You guys don't think that the dog will kill Scruffy, sending Belkar into a murderous rage, do you? Hmm.

[kierthos]

Scruffy vs. riding dog, who will win?

You guys don't think that the dog will kill Scruffy, sending Belkar into a murderous rage, do you? Hmm.
I know it would send me into a murderous rage, but I'm a cat person.


.........


You know, on most other forums, I could leave that last line like that and not worry about it.

What I mean is, I prefer cats to dogs.

[Sengoku]

Lol brilliant strip...I'm curious to know which relation Yukyuk has with Yikyik and Yokyok :).

Zz'dtri's familiar...I think the IFCC had a part when it came to free the drow with a trial, now the suspects about who his lawyer was are few.

I'm sorry (not really, actually) for all the LG haters out there, but there has been much behind-the-scene work to prepare their plan, they make me think the IFCC (and thus the Giant) are not allowing them to kick the bucket anytime soon.

(so, if you would be so kind to stop spamming the board with your personal wishes, I'm sure many would be thankful. Thanks in advance:smallwink:!)

[Lowkey Lyesmith]

If you look at the first time V and Z battled the wounds were not that visible either:
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0065.html

So it might be the spell does pretty lame damage.

[Adeptus]

And another Kobold! Priceless :amused:

Nale is not one to change his mind because of a few failures.

[Toper]

6:Got shot. This is Yukyuk's action, meaning V's turn has ended.

So V hasn't taken two turns, unless a second turn is required for that second move action. If V has found some feat or magic item that allows drawing a scroll as a free action(which would be good for a wizard), then it's just one turn and Zz'dtri's turn should be coming up after Yukyuk finishes.

Except that you forgot 7: Casts stoneskin.

edit: although, to be fair, Zz'dtri does have a history of standing around doing nothing (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0065.html) while V casts.

V's lack of battle damage struck me as strange, as well.

[Ancalagon]

So it might be the spell does pretty lame damage.

It might not do damage after all but do something else. But even if it's doing 5 damage and the two attacks by Kobold#3 did 2 and 3 dmg, we face a total dmg of 10.
That's already like 30% to 25% of Vaasuvius's total health.

[tenavis]

Enter stage right: Yukyuk, Belkar's killer.

[Orzel]

Awesome strip.

Somebody get Belkar, there's new named character for him to kill.

[The Pilgrim]

Well, so much for the theory that KilKil was Nale's kobold.

Nice touch with the Imp. Recycling characters is great and it also makes sense.

So, the cleric is the only one left to reveal.

[TheRiov]

This isn't so dire as it seems. The one thing the IFCC DOESNT want is V out of the picture. Quarr is likely there to make sure that V wins the fight. The IFCC wants control of the gate, and they want it through V (which they'll have from the soul-splice deal) but if V is killed, as stated when the necromancer-soul took off, souls with no bodies cannot cast and therefor cannot affect the gate.

[H Birchgrove]

Yuk Yuk (probably not related to the previous kobold)!
Is he a ranger? (crossbow and wolf)
P.S-Another happy ending for elan (probably)
-finished depetrifying but forgot about turn giant thingy.

Yuk Yuk seems to be a multi-classed Ranger/Rogue. Will be interesting to learn his alignment.

I had expected to see a Gnome as Belkar's opposite (after he had killed a good Gnome to get a chocolate bar).


I know it would send me into a murderous rage, but I'm a cat person.


.........


You know, on most other forums, I could leave that last line like that and not worry about it.

What I mean is, I prefer cats to dogs.

Thunder! Thunder! ThunderCats, HO! :smallbiggrin:

[Neutral Evil]

Can someone explain the timing?

In this thread, devoted to the course of V vs. Zz'dtri duel, (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=197415) is an attempt at reconstruction of the order of battle.


As in, V. gets zapped, has long chats (free actions yeah, but still pretty decent chats which might require a turn), does stuff . . . and what is Z doing all this time? Chilling out?

Apparently yes. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=10928399#post10928399) Why? I dunno. Hubris x Stupidity = my best bet.

You shouldn't be surprised. These are OoTS wizards, after all.

I would invite you all to continue the discussion in the above-mentioned thread, so as not to spend speculations across several threads at once.

[joe]

Seeing Yukyuk makes me really curious what Durkon's counterpart is going to be. I'm thinking either a duergar or a giant.

[Lupusater]

The way things are going now, we will have an epic family reunion:
Elan VS Nale VS Tarquin! Take your bets, ladies and gents!
(My two cents are on Tarquin. He will show them who's their daddy)

[scienceguy8]

This argument was beaten to death five ways from Sunday and back in the last discussion thread. :smallsmile: Even if one wants to ignore the in-comic precedence, the PHB specifically says that Break Enchantment can work in this instance (even if the SRD is unclear).

Question from someone who does not play D&D: PHB?

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/f/fb/Pointy-Haired_Boss.jpg
Pointy Haired Boss?

[Kish]

Player's Handbook.

[Ninjaman]

Seeing Yukyuk makes me really curious what Durkon's counterpart is going to be. I'm thinking either a duergar or a giant.

A half giant psygic warrior.

[Mr. Snuggles]

Yaaaay! Best comic in a while! Two introductions! Now things are happening (finally).

Are you really allowed to have an imp as a familiar? Oh, yes, I think I remember it was on the 1st ed. list. The best one to get, as I recall.

Two operatives on the Linear Guild now...wow, the IFCC is really moving pieces around. Sort of like the Gary Gygax novels where the gods got involved and supported various characters.

I wonder what Qarr will have to say to V. "You never thanked me" or will V be angry for making things worse? I mean, V lost his family either way, and now V owes his soul to demons and the entire draconic world became hostile to elves.

Can Rangers sneak attack? Must be part Rogue then. Either way, V has this one solved *hold person*

Little Orphan Annie is a comic from almost 100 years ago. She had empty white eyes with no pupils. http://www.comicbox.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/05/littleoannie.jpg.

Where's Mr. Scruffy in all this? Tag team with Blackwing to fight Qarr? Or Qarr charms Mr. Scruffy to attack Blackwing? And how did Z'zdtri remember Blackwing anyway? V's familiar was in the "out of sight, out of mind" phase back then. Notice how Qarr only appears when Z'zdtri thinks about him. :smallwink:

Will Malack ally with Durkon against the Linear Guild? Heck, why not Tarquin + Elan against LG? Maybe the whole thing is Nale's plan to get everyone away from the arena so he can assassinate the Empress of Blood (his real goal).

I think Hilgaya ain't coming back, but after so many characters returning who can say? She wasn't a "real" member of the Linear Guild. Loki instructed her to infiltrate the group to steal the Talisman of Dorukan.

And the funny thing is, Blackwing can make a better pointed finger than anyone with hands...

[Zea mays]

:vaarsuvius: As entrances go, I suppose I prefer the eminently predictable to the genuinely shocking.

Love what you did there Giant.

[Belsirk]

a Imp vs a crow ? on Mexico we have a epxresion for that: "Ching a tu... " (of coruse from the crow to the imp )

P.d. Good comic!

[Kish]

Blackwing is a raven, not a crow.

[Dancing_Fox]

Can someone explain the timing?

Thank you everyone who responded! Solid answers.

I guess it just looks longer than it is. Five panels, lots of activity . . . but once you spell it out it is all "V's turn."

:smallredface: I still get confused between real life and DnD comics. Erfworld calls out the difference blatently - characters stand around waiting for 'the other side' to take their turn. OOtS is more 'subtle.' :smallwink:

[Kelvin360]

Calenestel, you KNOW that if it turns out to be Qarr, everyone here is gonna bite a huge chunk outta your butt, right? >_>

[willpell]

I'm hoping Hilgya will return someday, but not as Linear Guild. She was the least evil by far of the crew (in fact I thought she seemed Chaotic Good, which is perfectly legit for a priest of a Chaotic Neutral deity, which I believe fits Loki as he was never really portrayed as evil in the old myths, but rather as a sympathetic source of havoc).

I'd personally love a Duergar who's every bit as committed to Law as Durkon - replacing Evil with Good is more than sufficiently Opposite for this purpose.

[JonestheSpy]

Rereading this, I realize how lucky V is that talking is a free action.

[Calenestel]

Calenestel, you KNOW that if it turns out to be Qarr, everyone here is gonna bite a huge chunk outta your butt, right? >_>

I guessed so from the beginning. Really shows how much I dislike when people jumps to conclusions.:smallbiggrin:

BUT:

1) I never said it wasn't! I said that we have very little real PROFF of it. :smalltongue:
2) I've actively said that I think that it probably IS Qarr. :smallwink:
3) Even if I'm "wrong" my point stands. That we couldn't really know that at that time. :smallamused:

[Scarlet Knight]

Interestingly, V can't be in any real danger of dying because the IFCC has explicitly said that they want him alive (or at any rate, they didn't want Xykon killing V, which strongly implies they want him alive). V's capture is one possibility. Personally, however, I'm hoping that V shows the advantages of his new thoughtfulness towards magic and manages to take Yukyuk out of the fight then best Z in a duel.



Still, this might be a good time for the IFCC to take over V for ...say...3 minutes to fight WITH the LG and sow further chaos. Long enough to perhaps...kill Belkar?

[Twilight Jack]

I'm hoping Hilgya will return someday, but not as Linear Guild. She was the least evil by far of the crew (in fact I thought she seemed Chaotic Good, which is perfectly legit for a priest of a Chaotic Neutral deity, which I believe fits Loki as he was never really portrayed as evil in the old myths, but rather as a sympathetic source of havoc).

I'd personally love a Duergar who's every bit as committed to Law as Durkon - replacing Evil with Good is more than sufficiently Opposite for this purpose.

Perhaps you're forgetting that Hilgya attempted to poison her first husband for offering her foot massages (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0083.html).

[ORione]

I'm... not so sure it has to be Qarr, to be honest.

Sure, it's possible. I won't be surprised if it IS. But we have way too little evidence to say for sure.

[QUOTE=t209;10926720]Yuk Yuk (probably not related to the previous kobold)!
Is he a ranger? (crossbow and wolf)
P.S-Another happy ending for elan (probably)
-finished depetrifying but forgot about turn giant thingy.

He used a sneak attack, so I'm guessing rogue.


the only thing i dont think makes sense is why quarr would willingly oppose a wizard hes personally seen Familicide 1/4 of the black dragons in the world.

stupid move Q

I see what you mean, but it would be stupider to appose the fiends who gave V the power to use Familicide in the first place.


Interestingly, V can't be in any real danger of dying because the IFCC has explicitly said that they want him alive (or at any rate, they didn't want Xykon killing V, which strongly implies they want him alive). V's capture is one possibility. Personally, however, I'm hoping that V shows the advantages of his new thoughtfulness towards magic and manages to take Yukyuk out of the fight then best Z in a duel.
kobold to do the deed?


This isn't so dire as it seems. The one thing the IFCC DOESNT want is V out of the picture. Quarr is likely there to make sure that V wins the fight. The IFCC wants control of the gate, and they want it through V (which they'll have from the soul-splice deal) but if V is killed, as stated when the necromancer-soul took off, souls with no bodies cannot cast and therefor cannot affect the gate.

I do believe that the IFCC wants V alive, but there's a good argument to the contrary, outlined by Absol197 here: http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=197131
I guess we'll have to wait and see.



So while it's logical it's still logic built on circumstances that PROVE nothing. Ergo: Half the posts here are really jumping to conclusions. :smallannoyed:

Welcome to the Oots forum. I'm ORione. :smallsmile:
People here have jumped to larger conclusions with much less evidence.


Well, I guess he found another mortal ass to glue his lips to.

OMG, that made me laugh so hard.


Seeing Yukyuk makes me really curious what Durkon's counterpart is going to be. I'm thinking either a duergar or a giant.

My money's on a tree. :smallbiggrin:

[KoboldRevenge]

*gasp!* Wow, starting to heat up!

[Akal Saris]

Are we sure that is Qarr? It would make sense if it was ...

I like this version of V. Preparing the defensive spells first... me thinks V is becoming optimized.

Now I'll be really impressed if Zz'dtri out-optimized V and prepared his kobold buddy by giving him adamantine-tipped bolts that ignore Stoneskin...

[Calenestel]

Welcome to the Oots forum. I'm ORione. :smallsmile:
People here have jumped to larger conclusions with much less evidence.

Heh. Yeah, I know. I'm usually busy over in the Play by Post section so I miss it. But it IS a pet peeve of mine so I just couldn't resist commenting on it when I actually were online when the new comic came up. :smallbiggrin:
That and I like the more benign ways of Trolling the Playground. :smalltongue:

[Querzis]

He used a sneak attack, so I'm guessing rogue.

Hes dual wielding crossbows and got an animal companion so ranger-rogue seems more likely with more level in ranger then rogue (because otherwise, V would have went down there. He really doesnt have enough hp to take a sneak from a level 14 pure rogue).

And I will agree with everyone who says that this is just the perfect opposite for Belkar.

[Kish]

I'm hoping Hilgya will return someday, but not as Linear Guild. She was the least evil by far of the crew (in fact I thought she seemed Chaotic Good,
She tried to poison her husband just for not violently rejecting their arranged marriage!

[Morquard]

The spell Z casts:
I think its a really low level spell. As was mentioned before it was used when they ran out of high and medium spellslots. Considering back then they were level 9 or so only, high and medium probably means everything from level 3 up. Which makes it a 1st or 2nd level spell, probably even a cantrip. They'e usually really pathetic in damage.
Why he cast it then? Same reason V cast Disintegrate on the dragon mama after the soul splice. Just in this case instead "It's the spell you requested" it's more "Oh remember this one? That's the one that nearly kicked your ass last time. Also I can waste an entire round on this crap because I'm confident enough that I defeat you".

The damage doesn't show:
Also remember that wizards often have a tendency to cast a whole host of buff spells with 1 hour/caster level duration at the beginning of the day after they reached a certain level, maybe with an extend spell rod or feat. So it's quite possible that V has a few buffs active that does mitigate some of the damage he received.

[Charmy]

Fun strip :) What I'm wondering though is why V isn't showing any battle damage after taking random-unnamed-green-lightning attack from Z and what I can only assume is a level 15+ rogue sneak attack from Yukyuk.

You'd think he'd be at less than half his hitpoints at least, being a d4 hit dice squishy... :smallconfused:

[Mauve Shirt]

Of course Qarr is there. He works for the IFCC now, and has to keep an eye on their pawns.

[B.I.T.T.]

Good comic. I like how threads are coming together here.

BTW that imp may be evil, but he also comes off as being pretty polite. But in a genuine sort of way, not in a smarmy "I'm a typical polite evil bastard." sort of way.

[DracoDei]

Kobold, riding a dog, dual-wielding hand crossbows. The most surprising thing about it is how predictable it should have been as an evil-opposites gag.
Apparently he stole the cross-bows from one of my inventions (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=6018203&postcount=5) (yes, that WHOLE THING is the name of the Prestige class).

[Doug Lampert]

Fun strip :) What I'm wondering though is why V isn't showing any battle damage after taking random-unnamed-green-lightning attack from Z and what I can only assume is a level 15+ rogue sneak attack from Yukyuk.

You'd think he'd be at less than half his hitpoints at least, being a d4 hit dice squishy... :smallconfused:

Why is YukYuk's rogue level 15+?

Nale is perfectly willing to have weaker henchmen (Pompey). Even if you ASSUME that YukYuk is a match for Belkar and is Belkar's nemisis/evil opposite then he's still almost certainly a Ranger/Rogue, probably with no more Rogue levels than Belkar's Barbarian levels, so he's probably got no more than 3 Rogue levels.

Finally, this is the new and improved V. Maybe V bothered to get a con boosting item or to cast Extended Bear's Endurance on hirself, 15d4 (max at level 1) is an average of 39 HP, 15d4 with +2HP/HD from con is 69 HP. Die size is not the most important thing about HP.

[theNater]

Except that you forgot 7: Casts stoneskin.
I totally did.:smallredface:

Man, I'm having a rough night.

[Jay R]

Hey, that kobold has a riding dog! Now that's no fair!!

But Belkar's animal companion has already shown willing and able to kill a human today.

[brionl]

Heh. Yeah, I know. I'm usually busy over in the Play by Post section so I miss it. But it IS a pet peeve of mine so I just couldn't resist commenting on it when I actually were online when the new comic came up. :smallbiggrin:
That and I like the more benign ways of Trolling the Playground. :smalltongue:

There is no good reason for it not to be Qarr.
Qarr was there when the IFCC was watching Vaarsuvius' fight with Xykon. Thus he has seen Blackwing, but Blackwing wasn't "present" when Vaarsuvius was negotiating with Qarr.
The IFCC is trying to influence the Linear Guild, planting another agent as a familiar in the party makes good sense for them.
It's "bringing back old friends" time in the strip.

[revenge256]

I thought YukYuk was cool and wanted to discuss how he's probably built (rogue for sneak attack/ranger for animal companion) but...

how does he reload?

[rewinn]

I'm happy to see Blackwing's character development - not simply obeying V's orders, but taking the initiative to trashtalk Z and launch an attack. Too bad it's going to lead to a near-fatal tussle with an Imp; I assume Z and Qarr have thought this over, since the whole ambush seems pretty well planned out.

Simply killing V would be needlessly simply for a plan by Elan; based on past performance, holding V + Blackwing hostage is probably the first part of a 20-step plan.

[Calenestel]

There is no good reason for it not to be Qarr.
Qarr was there when the IFCC was watching Vaarsuvius' fight with Xykon. Thus he has seen Blackwing, but Blackwing wasn't "present" when Vaarsuvius was negotiating with Qarr.
The IFCC is trying to influence the Linear Guild, planting another agent as a familiar in the party makes good sense for them.
It's "bringing back old friends" time in the strip.

Heh. And once again my point is missed. :smallamused:
I'm not saying it ISN'T Qarr (or that it's Not-Qarr :thog:)
What I'm saying is that a lot of people are jumping to conclusions when they say that it IS because we really have too little proof to say one way or the other from this comic alone.
I've even stated clearly that I actually do believe it to be Qarr. It's the most logical from the CIRCUMSTANTIAL evidence we have. But we really. Have. No. Proof. That's all.
I'm NOT promoting this to be Not-Qarr. Never were. :smalltongue:

[MoonCat]

Panel 1: *snrk* Smooth Curvy Flesh BWAHAHAHAHA!

Panel 2: Ooo, clever how you answered the concerns of the people about Break Enchantment. Awww, Elan is so sweet!

Panel 3: HALEY ACTION FIGURES! I love 'em! Aww Elan is still being sweet. (Seems somewhat parallel to when Haley knocks over Elan and V gets hit)

Panel 4: V is being so noble! Now either this is a case of 'leave me, I'll hold them off', or V will have a totally awesome duel in a future strip.

Panel 5: So funny how it jokes on how V's speech is so complicated "Quickened Haste" seems like a command in everyday speech.

Panel 6: That's true, V has learned a lot. Similar thoughts to Panel 4.

Panel 7: WAGWAGAGWA? There is a kobold?! And it has a dog? Nale did an Evil Opposites thing anyway, and ended up with a kobold with a dog without knowing!

Panel 8: YukYuk! YukYuk! And he'll probably be killed so v can duel Z, but YukYuk!

Panel 9: Who's Orphan Annie? *reads thread* Oh.

Panel 10: Hmm, I guess Z does have a familiar, I wonder-

Panel 11: ...Bwuh?

[Porthos]

But we really. Have. No. Proof. That's all.

Why do we require proof? :smallconfused: Qaar is a recurring charcter who has good reason to be there. That's proof enuf.

Frankly, one should presume that this is Qaar unless given a good reason not to. And, "Just Because" isn't a good enough reason, in my book.

Sure you can make an argument that this isn't Qarr. But, then again, I could make the argument that the moon is made out of Green Cheese. It wouldn't be a very good argument, but I could make it nonetheless. :smalltongue:

[Blisstake]

Remember, battles in OotS don't always exactly go how the rules should indicate. When V was fighting the Chimera, he got to cast three spells in a row, and there was something similar when they were against the random encounter ogres. This shouldn't be taken as a sign of Z being arrogant or stupid (it's also possible he cast a buffing spell or something. I dunno)

Also, I think V has pretty good hit points (I generally don't look at the CLaG thread, since it seems to have a lot of sketchy information). He took two hits from a giant demon (devil?) and damage from the fall as well without going down, and after getting his ass kicked by Xykon, he still managed to survive a meteor swarm. Maybe he picked up an amulet of health somewhere? Maybe's he's got bear's endurance on. Or perhaps he's been getting really lucky with damage rolls.

[Querzis]

Why do we require proof? :smallconfused: Qaar is a recurring charcter who has good reason to be there. That's proof enuf.

Frankly, one should presume that this is Qaar unless given a good reason not to. And, "Just Because" isn't a good enough reason, in my book.

Sure you can make an argument that this isn't Qarr. But, then again, I could make the argument that the moon is made out of Green Cheese. It wouldn't be a very good argument, but I could make it nonetheless. :smalltongue:

Or, to use the comic as evidence, we could also make an argument that Nale is Elan. He switched place again during the few months Roy was in the afterlife. Sure it would make no sense but you have no proof against it either.

Qaar is a recurring character with ties to the Linear Guild. And then this imp who look just like Qaar show up. Its Qaar. Thats it.

[Onyavar]

What if...

V's spell has gone wrong and Haley stays shrunk? Then Durkon can help her, but she stays tiny for a while, until they can reverse the condition. How could this be used to advance the story? Special missions? Some dozen jokes? Fighting mice? Riding war-mice? How and which stats would change? Will her bow still give a +5 to Damage?

[Porthos]

Or, to use the comic as evidence, we could also make an argument that Nale is Elan. He switched place again during the few months Roy was in the afterlife. Sure it would make no sense but you have no proof against it either.

Nono. The person we're seeing in the long lost TN twin Alen. He replaced Elan just before they got to the Empire of Blood. This explains why "Elan" has regressed so much mentally. :smallwink:

As for proof? Well we already know there is a "Neutral Twin (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0069.html)" out there. So it makes sense that he'll show up sooner or later. :smallbiggrin:

[Calenestel]

OK. Once more from the top. :smalltongue:


Why do we require proof? :smallconfused: Qaar is a recurring charcter who has good reason to be there. That's proof enuf.

Why do I need proof? Because otherwise it's just jumping to conclusions and that's a pet peeve of mine. How can this not be obvious by now? :smallconfused:
And no, I'm sorry. That is NOT proof enough. The way it was laid out in the strip, as a big reveal towards the end, is a pretty compelling argument, but it's NOT proof. Nothing given has PROVEN that it's Qarr. It's still within the realm of possibities that Z has taken an anonymous imp never seen before as a familiar. It's not very likely. But it's not ridiculously unreasonable either.


Frankly, one should presume that this is Qaar unless given a good reason not to. And, "Just Because" isn't a good enough reason, in my book.

First off: WHY? Why should I presume that it's Qaar?
I can make the logical assumption, and I do.
But I don't have to interpret a development in a certain way just because everyone else does or even because it's the most logical. The Giant HAS thrown us curveballs before (granted, this one would be curvier than usual, but still).

Secondly: It's not "just because", because whether it was Qarr or not isn't even my main point. This seems a bit hard to grasp for some but my point was that too many just jumped to a conclusion without evidence. Not that the conclusion was wrong, but that the conclusion was JUMPED to. Then it's not "just because" any longer, it's a strike for logic!


Sure you can make an argument that this isn't Qarr. But, then again, I could make the argument that the moon is made out of Green Cheese. It wouldn't be a very good argument, but I could make it nonetheless. :smalltongue:

Oh, come on!

1) That metaphor is so silly I'm not sure it hasn't crossed the border and moved to inane (but then I guess that's the whole point, isn't it?). Claiming that the moon was made out of cheese would be a ridiculous theory that flies in the face of ALL scientific evidence known to man. Claiming that this isn't Qarr is doable since THERE IS NO PROOF OR HARD EVIDENCE!

2)Furthermore: I. DIDN'T. CLAIM. IT. WAS. NOT. QARR. How is this not perfectly clear by this point?! What must I say to make it better understood?
Seriously! EVERY one of my posts have stated more or less clearly that I find it a viable theory. At the least. And I've even moved closer to completely believing it to be Qarr as the discussion has gone on. But there IS no proof and THAT was my point! I did NOT claim it to be Not-Qarr! :smallmad:

[King of Nowhere]

My idea is that V has a CON enhancing item, and so has extra hp. As long as he loses those extra hp, he will show no damage.
Just an outlandhsih idea

[Porthos]

You seem to be getting a tad worked up about this, Calenestel. :smalltongue:

I never claimed that you claimed that this definitively wasn't Qaar. I am saying, and have been saying, however that there is such a thing as being too open minded.

I have been given no reason to suspect this is anyone but Qaar. And until I am given reason to suspect this isn't Qaar, I shall.

If you wish to claim until the cows come home that this is "jumping to conclusions", so be it. I shall just have to live with the shame. :smalltongue:

===

BTW, my pet peeve is people who try to pull the "I could make the argument" game. Hence my utterly ridiculous claim in the prior post. :smallwink:

[Gandariel]

Let me try to describe it all:

Surprise Eound:
Z stones Haley
Round 1
V (who won initiative) only moves (stupidly)
Z casts his spell

Round 2
V:
1) picks the scroll (free action, somehow)
2) casts Shrink item (standard action)
3) Casts Quickened Haste
4) Moves (move action)
((((off-panel, Z casts a buff on himself, gives some sort of signal, dismisses a spell which was concealing Yakyak, or just stands still, we can't say))))
YakYak moves and shoots

Round 3:
V casts Stoneskin.

Plus, lots of talking.
LOTS!

[Anarion]

Regarding V's extra action, it's also possible that V casting both shrink item and stoneskin is making up for the fact that Z cast two spells in a row in the previous strip. We don't know whether the green lightning was quickened or not, but assuming it took a standard action, V never got the chance to cast between Flesh to Stone on Haley and Z casting the green lightning, so this strip actually evened them back out to the "proper" number of actions each should have had so far.

[Goosefeather]

Is it just me who's curious as to where Mr. Scruffy's got to? Maybe he's gone to fetch Belkar (and possibly Ian, as well), who'll arrive just as V is starting to be overwhelmed, and turn the tide?

Also, I know he's Hastened, but Elan alone never bodes well if you don't know where Nale is...

I'm also half-expecting Tarquin, and maybe Malack, to get involved in this fight somehow. T probably suspects something's up and might come to investigate, if he can tear his eyes away from Roy/Thog, while M could join the Elan/Nale/Sabine/Durkon/Durkon's opposite fight we seem to be headed for.

Qarr (yes, I'm assuming it's him, bite me) is a fairly unknown quantity here - we don't know what Nale's planning, but nor do we know what the fiends (and by extension Qarr and Sabine) are after. The two plans might coincide for now, or Q/S might subtly sabotage whatever Nale's attempting.

In fact, it just struck me that, as a short term goal, and considering their desire for strife, it's not unreasonable to assume that the fiends are going to try and knock Tarquin out of his comfort spot, and let the continent descend into unrestrained warfare. That's presumably a secondary issue though, gate stuff takes priority.

Anyway, just some thoughts!

[Lemonus]

Me when I saw Zz'dtri's familiar: :eek: :biggrin:

[Calenestel]

You seem to be getting a tad worked up about this, Calenestel. :smalltongue:

I never claimed that you claimed that this definitively wasn't Qaar. I am saying, and have been saying, however that there is such a thing as being too open minded.

I have been given no reason to suspect this is anyone but Qaar. And until I am given reason to suspect this isn't Qaar, I shall.

If you wish to claim until the cows come home that this is "jumping to conclusions", so be it. I shall just have to live with the shame. :smalltongue:

===

BTW, my pet peeve is people who try to pull the "I could make the argument" game. Hence my utterly ridiculous claim in the prior post. :smallwink:

Yeah, I got more than a bit worked up by the last part of my post. My apologies. While conclusion jumping is a pet peeve of mine, people telling me what to think is something I really detest. And I HATE it when people makes up ridiculous theories and compares them to mine while saying that it's the same thing. :smallredface:

1) Yes, there's a possibility of being to open-minded. When that happens you can't make any reasonable assumptions for a fear of being wrong. I, however, am not. As can be seen. :smallbiggrin:

2) If you think it's Qarr without needing any proof beside the absence of proof to the contrary then yes, you ARE jumping to conclusions. It will most probably turn out to be the RIGHT conclusion that you jumped to. But like Sherlock Holmes I will shake my head in amused resignation, because you JUMPED there without feeling the least bit shame about it. And that's that. :smalltongue:

3) As I said: I didn't try and play the "I could make the argument"-game. I honestly believe that people are jumping to conclusion and THAT's the point I was trying to make. I care less and less about whether it's actually Qarr or not. It's not the point for me, and in a way it never was. I just like calling people out on assuming things they cannot really know, only believe.
The funny part? I'm a religious person and will do the same against people of my own religion. :smallbiggrin:

I would appreciate it if you kept your ridiculous claims at least ten feet away from me. :smallwink:

So, with that cleared up, what should we discuss now? :smallbiggrin:

Edit:

Qarr (yes, I'm assuming it's him, bite me) is a fairly unknown quantity here - we don't know what Nale's planning, but nor do we know what the fiends (and by extension Qarr and Sabine) are after. The two plans might coincide for now, or Q/S might subtly sabotage whatever Nale's attempting.

*Bites Goose. Hard.*

[Garland]

So... if the imp flat out says "I'm Qarr" in the next strip, I'm guessing it STILL wouldn't be definitive proof, as he could be another imp lying* about him being Qarr? What would make it 100% certain then?




*an imp lying is implying... err never mind

[Calenestel]

So... if the imp flat out says "I'm Qarr" in the next strip, I'm guessing it STILL wouldn't be definitive proof, as he could be another imp lying* about him being Qarr? What would make it 100% certain then?




*an imp lying is implying... err never mind

Simply put? "Oh, don't be ridiculous." :smalltongue:

That would be COMPLETELY inane of ANYONE to claim and I find the very argument slightly offending. :smallamused:

[Naris]

I thought YukYuk was cool and wanted to discuss how he's probably built (rogue for sneak attack/ranger for animal companion) but...

how does he reload?

Chu-ko-nu? Either that or he carries a bunch of hand crossbows or is terrifyingly dextrous and can reload while bouncing on a giant riding dog.

I'm hoping we see Nale and his divine caster next strip!

[Holy_Knight]

Why do I need proof? Because otherwise it's just jumping to conclusions and that's a pet peeve of mine.

This seems a bit hard to grasp for some but my point was that too many just jumped to a conclusion without evidence. Not that the conclusion was wrong, but that the conclusion was JUMPED to.

I think this is the problem people are having with what you're saying. Are you correct that as it stands now, there is still a chance that the Imp is not Qarr? Yes, of course--but that is not the same thing as jumping to conclusions.

There is good reason to think that the Imp is Qarr, so your claim here that there is "no evidence" that it is him is false (not to mention contrary to some of your other comments). Additionally, jumping to conclusions means going from weak or paltry evidence to a conclusion, which doesn't really describe the situation here. There's more reason to think that the imp is Qarr than to think that it isn't him (as you yourself admit). Hence, "jumping to conclusions" is a misnomer.

Basically, "This conclusion is not apodictically certain" is not equivalent to "Believing this conclusion entails having jumped to it".

[Blisstake]

Let me try to describe it all:

Surprise Eound:
Z stones Haley
Round 1
V (who won initiative) only moves (stupidly)
Z casts his spell


Or, alternatively, Z wins initiative and prepares an action to use lightning when V is about to cast a spell, preventing it.

[Gandariel]

Even better, since it also avoids a turn of NOTHING for V..
SO:

Surprise Eound:
Z stones Haley
Round 1
Z readies action: zap V if xe casts something
V: moves, then tries to cast something
Z zaps him/her

Round 2
((((off-panel, Z casts a buff on himself, gives some sort of signal, dismisses a spell which was concealing Yakyak, or just stands still, we can't say))))
V:
1) picks the scroll (free action, somehow)
2) casts Shrink item (standard action)
3) Casts Quickened Haste
4) Moves (move action)
((((off-panel, Z casts a buff on himself, gives some sort of signal, dismisses a spell which was concealing Yakyak, or just stands still, we can't say))))
YakYak moves and shoots

Round 3:
Z: ??
V casts Stoneskin.

[rewinn]

*an imp lying is implying... err never mind
OMG now you started it ...

... the imp is merely acting like Qarr, the more strongly to impact events: an Impactor.

... the imp is actually a piece of wood panelling that Gerard has animated and polymorphed. The proof? He (or she) is impanelled!

... the imp is acting in a lawful (or licit) way. The proof is implicit.

[Porthos]

But like Sherlock Holmes I will shake my head in amused resignation, because you JUMPED there without feeling the least bit shame about it. And that's that. :smalltongue:

And I shall shake my head in mock resignation that you (as least in my opinion) made a Sherlock Holmes comparision where it wasn't warranted and call it even. :smallwink:

[Calenestel]

I think this is the problem people are having with what you're saying. Are you correct that as it stands now, there is still a chance that the Imp is not Qarr? Yes, of course--but that is not the same thing as jumping to conclusions.

There is good reason to think that the Imp is Qarr, so your claim here that there is "no evidence" that it is him is false (not to mention contrary to some of your other comments). Additionally, jumping to conclusions means going from weak or paltry evidence to a conclusion, which doesn't really describe the situation here. There's more reason to think that the imp is Qarr than to think that it isn't him (as you yourself admit). Hence, "jumping to conclusions" is a misnomer.

Basically, "This conclusion is not apodictically certain" is not equivalent to "Believing this conclusion entails having jumped to it".

In a way I agree with you.
However, and I've said this once before but I can't find it just now, it depends on how you reached your conclusion.

If you say: "Hm... Considering how the imp was revealed, our previous knowledge of imps in the comic, and so on and so forth, we can safely assume this to be Qarr" then no, it's a logical enough assumption that it's not jumping to conclusions any more but stepping to conclusion, as the person I discussed with before put it. (Which was nicely put, I'd like to add.)

But if you go: "ZOMG!!1! That's so Qarr! He's an imp! Just like Qarr and he looks just the same!" Then I'd very much call that jumping to the conclusion because you do NOT make a good case about it even in your own head.
And frankly? I personally think that a lot of posts have been more like the latter than the former, thus my objection.

Savvy? :smallwink:

Edit:

And I shall shake my head in mock resignation that you (as least in my opinion) made a Sherlock Holmes comparision where it wasn't warranted and call it even. :smallwink:

Fair enough. :smallbiggrin:

[The Succubus]

Well, I guess he found another mortal ass to glue his lips to.

:vaarsuvius: "Truly, you are a painter with words."

[Shoelessgdowar]

Okay, just for kicks, and yes partly to provoke argument, but the good kind. My predictions for the entire Linear Guild 3.0

Roy vs Thog (Given, obvious, and happening)
Elan vs Nale (A must)
Haley vs Sabine (Easy to see)
V vs Z (WOW!!! Yes, I skipped saying it before, this was so expected of V vs P, but no one saw it being Z)

Okay, those were the obvious half now the predictions, which may be multiple

Belkar vs Yukyuk(This is a naming theme thing, so he's a Kobold we've seen but not had named)
or
Belkar vs Gourntank (Sophisticated Lawful Tactical Reptilian)

Mr. Scruffy vs Mrs. Fancy (a dog who is Belkar's new Rival's pet)

Durkon vs Solt Lorkyurg (Durkon is a Living Priest, so a Zombie or some other type of Undead Gnome would be very opposite him, especially if he was raised by Helgya just to beat up on the guy who jilted her, and a former drug dealing Gnome would be perfect to oppose an alcohol consuming Dwarf)

Blackwing vs Z's Familar (A multicolored snake to be the opposite of Blackwing's B&W Ravenhood)


... the only argument I could think of to have something different is... Ravens are a type of common basic starting familiar, since Z's been gone well over a year, he could have an improved familiar replacing his familiar and have gone for something more exotic like a spitting crawler lizard or a shocker lizard (pikachu joke, maybe? Though that would be a bit too Paladin-esque in OotSverse)...


...
Also, if Z is the scrying spell, then Nale is probably informed enough to be seeking a counterpart for Mr. Scruffy and Z most likely already possesses a counterpart for Blackwing.

I figure 790 will be a awesome V vs Z battle, 791 will reveal Durkon's counterpart, 792 will be Durkon vs his foe, 793 should present Belkar and his foe, 794 will be Belkar vs Foe, and then 795 should be the big reveal of Nale and Sabine along with Mr. Scruffy and Blackwing's counterparts.


WOW!!! Okay, a little faster then I predicted and not in the order I predicted, but Z's Familar, check... that the familiar is a improved familiar since V's is a basic, check... That it was Qarr, totally unexpected but totally awesome... Kobold rival for Belkar, check... named Yukyuk to continue the naming scheme and vowel progression, check... canine animal companion, check... okay I got the name wrong but that was more me joking around to find a name that would be an opposite of Mr. Scruffy, and I guess Sir Scraggly is sort of an inversion since Sir is a noble title while Mr. is a common title and scraggly is sort of different from scruffy (not so much)... That the Kobold would be a ranged specialist to reverse Belkar's close specialty, check. I think I did pretty good on this.

Soooo, anyone want to take bets on how accurate my semi-silly prediction of a Helgya zombified Solt Lorkyurg as Durkon's new foe is? (Yeah, it is convoluted and funny, but creepily, Qarr and Z are making me feel slightly more confident in it)

And it is definitely Qarr, that is partly the joke of the title 'Unfamiliar'. Qarr and Blackwing were never formally introduced, and Z implicitly mentions 'Right, the familiar...' implying he like most overlooked Blackwing for the most part, '... I have one, too. Now.' implying he now has a familiar. Familiars if lost require 1 year and 1 day before they can be replaced, however familiars can also be replaced at higher levels with greater(level based, adjusted to act as if lower level) and improved(feat increase that allows a larger list familiars) or a combination of both, and an Imp is a available choice at Level 7 (which means that if Qarr is only a greater familiar, his bonuses from Zz'dtri are as if Z is 6 levels lower then he is. However, if Z has spent 3 feats for Talking Familiar and Improved Familiar twice, Qarr can be treated as if he were Z's original Familiar for Familiar Bonuses). This was totally an option, and the only reason I even passed up imp was because I was looking for an inversion of Blackwing (flying) and sought lizards and snakes since they crawl on their bellies, but in hindsight an Imp was an ideal choice and Qarr is just epic.

And this makes 3 returns in the past 4 strips as well as the awesome (if highly predictable, and yet no less awesome introduction of Yukyuk... who will soon die only to be replaced with Yykyyk!!! Yakyak and Yekyek were killed long ago, we'll learn about them when we meet Belkar's father and see Belkar's youth in flashback when Belkar's life flashes before his eyes and he gets even more character development).

So, due to the acceleration of the festivities, I have a feeling that the next few strips will be non-stop excitement and chaos... everyone better prepare for a whirlwind ride, because this is going to be insane, awesome, and OH WTF... You guys aren't gunna see that one coming!!!

[Jay R]

And I shall shake my head in mock resignation that you (as least in my opinion) made a Sherlock Holmes comparision where it wasn't warranted and call it even. :smallwink:

Oh, it was certainly warranted. Person A reached a conclusion on less data than person B required. That's certainly a valid reason for a Sherlock Holmes comparison.

He just got it backwards. Holmes is the one who reaches the conclusion first.

:smallwink:

[Vorynn]

Re: Little Orphan Annie eyes

I love how Blackwing used this as his insult to Zzdrtiwhatevertrizzt. There are exactly two characters I can think of that have Little Orphan Annie style plain white eyes with no borders: Zz'drit, and ... Blackwing himself.

(although one could perhaps make the argument that Blackwing's eyes DO have borders, and we just cannot tell because his entire face is black... I prefer to think that Blackwing was just feeling threatened that his unique eye-style was being usurped and needs to peck out those eyes so that his own will be unique again)

[Calenestel]

Mr. Holmes ALWAYS reaches the conclusion first. But he NEVER jumps to them. He finds evidence. Real, hard evidence to PROVE his conclusions. Evidence noone else can see until it's too late, sure, but evidence.

He hates conclusion jumping and has berated dr. Watson for it at LEAST once in the books. :smalltongue:

[Caractacus]

Is it just me who's curious as to where Mr. Scruffy's got to? Maybe he's gone to fetch Belkar (and possibly Ian, as well), who'll arrive just as V is starting to be overwhelmed, and turn the tide?


Gone to 'fetch' Belkar and Ian?

You recall that we are in corridors behind a balcony overlooking an arena with cells behind (and perhaps beneath) it where the two would-be fetchees are held captive...

I am pretty sure that it would be difficult to get to V in time, if at all, though that might be funny, I suppose:

Mr Scruffy: Meow, meow, meow, meow, meow!
:belkar: What's that you say, Mr Scruffy? V's being attacked by Zz'dtri, Qarr, and a hound-mounted Kobold? Let's go!

[Shoelessgdowar]

Mr. Holmes ALWAYS reaches the conclusion first. But he NEVER jumps to them. He finds evidence. Real, hard evidence to PROVE his conclusions. Evidence noone else can see until it's too late, sure, but evidence.

He hates conclusion jumping and has berated dr. Watson for it at LEAST once in the books. :smalltongue:

Actually, I believe there are 3 Mr. Holmes to take into account.

Sherlock (The Most Famous and least talented, Middle Brother)... collects evidence, mulls over it, then makes highly educated deductions after eliminating all other potential possibilities.

Sigerson Holmes (The least famous and most hotheaded, Baby Brother)... collects evidence, swiftly eliminating pointless portions, and quickly coming up with details that Sherlock would overlook, not wasting time eliminating other possibilities that come up once the real solution is found.

Mycroft Holmes (The slightly famous and most talented, Eldest Brother)... He hears a bit of the evidence and gives the solution from the slightest tidbits with unerring accuracy, never even having to leave his desk since he prefers to eat and enjoy his day instead of waste time collecting unnecessary clues when the answers are glaring him in the face. He is known for his laziness and his superior intellect almost rivaled by 'Baby Siggy', while idiot brother Sherlock trails in their footsteps but makes a big deal so he gets press (Sherlock isn't stupid, he's just an idiot compared to the far superior intellect of his older and younger brothers, and as the middle child he seeks approval and fame to compensate, as well as became dependent on drugs to give him the emotional support he was deprived because of being the dumb one and caught between the Genius Mycroft and the Prodigy/Baby Sigerson). Mycroft's intellect so great that he was elevated to the head of his own division of the British Secret Service called MI-6 and his name was abbreviated to a single letter alias that has since been used for all of his successors, 'M' (perhaps you've heard of it and his successors?).

[sims796]

I'm with Calenestel. As it's been said, people here loves to act like they have this whole comic figured out, knows the author's motives, and can accurately predict exactly how things will go down.

There is a strong possibility as to that imp being Qu'arr. I bet money on it. But there is not enough evidence yet to outright say that it is Qu'arr. That goes for everything. Not to bring this up, but that also goes with the oracle.You won't be wrong for considering Belkar dead, simply because the Oracle hasn't been wrong yet. However, it has not happend yet, and anything can happen from now until then. It is not set in stone that he'll die until he does, because the author can go in any direction he'd like.

One thing this story has are twists. Plenty of 'em.

[Calenestel]

Actually, I believe there are 3 Mr. Holmes to take into account.

Sherlock (The Most Famous and least talented, Middle Brother)... collects evidence, mulls over it, then makes highly educated deductions after eliminating all other potential possibilities.

Sigerson Holmes (The least famous and most hotheaded, Baby Brother)... collects evidence, swiftly eliminating pointless portions, and quickly coming up with details that Sherlock would overlook, not wasting time eliminating other possibilities that come up once the real solution is found.

Mycroft Holmes (The slightly famous and most talented, Eldest Brother)... He hears a bit of the evidence and gives the solution from the slightest tidbits with unerring accuracy, never even having to leave his desk since he prefers to eat and enjoy his day instead of waste time collecting unnecessary clues when the answers are glaring him in the face. He is known for his laziness and his superior intellect almost rivaled by 'Baby Siggy', while idiot brother Sherlock trails in their footsteps but makes a big deal so he gets press (Sherlock isn't stupid, he's just an idiot compared to the far superior intellect of his older and younger brothers, and as the middle child he seeks approval and fame to compensate, as well as became dependent on drugs to give him the emotional support he was deprived because of being the dumb one and caught between the Genius Mycroft and the Prodigy/Baby Sigerson). Mycroft's intellect so great that he was elevated to the head of his own division of the British Secret Service called MI-6 and his name was abbreviated to a single letter alias that has since been used for all of his successors, 'M' (perhaps you've heard of it and his successors?).

Heh. Yeah, I was obviously speaking of the middle brother seeing as most people know little of the other two.
I've never really liked Mycroft. He kind of jumps to conclusions and it absolutely INFURIATES me that he's always right. :smallbiggrin:

Edit:

I'm with Calenestel. As it's been said, people here loves to act like they have this whole comic figured out, knows the author's motives, and can accurately predict exactly how things will go down.

There is a strong possibility as to that imp being Qu'arr. I bet money on it. But there is not enough evidence yet to outright say that it is Qu'arr. That goes for everything. Not to bring this up, but that also goes with the oracle.You won't be wrong for considering Belkar dead, simply because the Oracle hasn't been wrong yet. However, it has not happend yet, and anything can happen from now until then. It is not set in stone that he'll die until he does, because the author can go in any direction he'd like.

One thing this story has are twists. Plenty of 'em.

I'm not sure Qarr's being or not being and Belkar's death is entirely compareable.

[Lateral]

I hate to interrupt, but I have something to say.

http://www.neogrognard.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/06/kirk-yelling-at-kahn.jpg
QAAAAAAAARRRRRR!!!!

[revenge256]

Chu-ko-nu? Either that or he carries a bunch of hand crossbows or is terrifyingly dextrous and can reload while bouncing on a giant riding dog.

I'm hoping we see Nale and his divine caster next strip!

I had to look Chu-ko-nu up (it's a repeating crossbow according to Wikipedia), but you'd still need a free hand to pull the lever back.

[Menarker]

Well, if the Giant follows the current trend regarding kobolds in the LG with names like Y-ky-k, we're down to a select few more since we're running out of vowels. :3

So far, we've seen Yikyik, Yokyok, and presently Yukyuk while also referencing Yakyak. So there is only that one and YekYek... Unless we get a weird one due to Y sometimes being considered a vowel, YykYyk. ^^;

[St Fan]

Lol brilliant strip...I'm curious to know which relation Yukyuk has with Yikyik and Yokyok :).


He's Yokyok's cousin and Yikyik's nephew.

Also, to complete with the Chaotic Evil Yikyik who who an equivalent to Belkar, and the Lawful Good Yokyok who was an opposite, I bet that Yukyuk will prove to be neutral. He's interested in avenging his kin and the money Nale pay him, nothing more.

[JSSheridan]

V can cast as many spells in a round as plot demands.

145 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0145.html)

That is all.

[Shoelessgdowar]

Heh. Yeah, I was obviously speaking of the middle brother seeing as most people know little of the other two.
I've never really liked Mycroft. He kind of jumps to conclusions and it absolutely INFURIATES me that he's always right. :smallbiggrin:

Edit:


I'm not sure Qarr's being or not being and Belkar's death is entirely compareable.

Yes, but that is what makes Mycroft so awesome... he doesn't waste time, he just is right... why waste time doing all that leg work when you can be right. Is it any wonder he is 'The Most Indispensable Man in the British Government' and would have continued to pass up promotions had he not be ordered to head the new division specifically designed to maximize his talents.

The reason so many people know Sherlock and not the other two is Sigerson is an eccentric and Mycroft has no desire for fame and glory, and therefore neither seeks the limelight Sherlock thrusts himself into.


Well, if the Giant follows the current trend regarding kobolds in the LG with names like Y-ky-k, we're down to a select few more since we're running out of vowels. :3

So far, we've seen Yikyik, Yokyok, and presently Yukyuk while also referencing Yakyak. So there is only that one and YekYek... Unless we get a weird one due to Y sometimes being considered a vowel, YykYyk. ^^;

Other possibilities (Since Y is a vowel) Yckyck, Ymkymk, Yskysk, Yrkyrk, Ylkylk, Ynkynk, Yhkyhk, Ywkywk, Yzkyzk, and Yxkyxk... atleast

[Yendor]

Okay, this is ridiculous. People are so bloody paranoid about so-called "twists" they'll refuse to believe anything that hasn't been spelled out to them in words of one syllable. Having the imp turn out to be completely different, but looking identical, to the one already linked to the Linear Guild is not a twist, it's an ass-pull. Believing it's not Qarr until we're explictly told so is equivalent to having Holmes sit in his room and hope the villain confesses.

EDIT: Qarr -- and for that matter, Zz'dtri -- showing up is a twist.

[Calenestel]

Yes, but that is what makes Mycroft so awesome... he doesn't waste time, he just is right... why waste time doing all that leg work when you can be right. Is it any wonder he is 'The Most Indispensable Man in the British Government' and would have continued to pass up promotions had he not be ordered to head the new division specifically designed to maximize his talents.

The reason so many people know Sherlock and not the other two is Sigerson is an eccentric and Mycroft has no desire for fame and glory, and therefore neither seeks the limelight Sherlock thrusts himself into.

1) If you missed it in my previous posts: People jumping to conclusions is a pet peeve of mine. :smallbiggrin:

2) I'd say the main reason so few know of Holmes' brothers is because they haven't seen much more than a few movies or tv-series. :smallamused:
(And I was VERY happy when Mycroft showed up in the latest Sherlock series by BBC. Even if I hate his guts. :smalltongue:)

[Shoelessgdowar]

Okay, this is ridiculous. People are so bloody paranoid about so-called "twists" they'll refuse to believe anything that hasn't been spelled out to them in words of one syllable. Having the imp turn out to be completely different, but looking identical, to the one already linked to the Linear Guild is not a twist, it's an ass-pull. Believing it's not Qarr until we're explictly told so is equivalent to having Holmes sit in his room and hope the villain confesses.

Mycroft and Sigurson both can do that... and succeed. Sherlock not so much.

[Calenestel]

Okay, this is ridiculous. People are so bloody paranoid about so-called "twists" they'll refuse to believe anything that hasn't been spelled out to them in words of one syllable. Having the imp turn out to be completely different, but looking identical, to the one already linked to the Linear Guild is not a twist, it's an ass-pull. Believing it's not Qarr until we're explictly told so is equivalent to having Holmes sit in his room and hope the villain confesses.

You're missing the point I was making. :smalltongue:
Edit: Also, that comparison is completely flawed. One is being overly doubtful or unwilling to draw any conclusions, the other is being stupid and lazy.

@Shoeless: Good point. :smallbiggrin:

[AlhazTheRed]

I think the fact that Qarr says "formally introduced" instead of just "introduced" is a dead giveaway.

Here's hoping that Yukyuk is more than a one-off joke, I love what The Giant does with kobolds:smallsmile:

[Gray Mage]

Frankly, I think that saying that those that think it's Quarr are "jumping to conclusions" is silly. It's like saying that those that think Yukyuk is Belkar's new opposite are also jumping to conclusions, since he's not proven.

[Calenestel]

Frankly, I think that saying that those that think it's Quarr are "jumping to conclusions" is silly. It's like saying that those that think Yukyuk is Belkar's new opposite are also jumping to conclusions, since he's not proven.

Really? Well, OK. If you think so...
Personally I think the latter is so probable that it's no longer any need to even draw conclusions but if you don't think so, then yes. That might be jumping to conclusions as well. :smallamused:

Seriously, though. Does Shoeless or any of the others I've argued discussed this with so far agree with the comparison? :smallconfused:
Edit: Because I find them to be on such different levels of "obvious-ness" that they can't be compared fairly like this. So I'd like to hear your thoughts.

[link3710]

I'm surprised no one has mentioned that Z called Blackwing "odd". Any ideas on what that meant?