Uses of fascinate (Bard ability)

[Gwendol]

In a recent game the conditions of use of the bardic ability Fascinate came up. Just to recap here's what the SRD has to say:


A bard with 3 or more ranks in a Perform skill can use his music or poetics to cause one or more creatures to become fascinated with him. Each creature to be fascinated must be within 90 feet, able to see and hear the bard, and able to pay attention to him. The bard must also be able to see the creature. The distraction of a nearby combat or other dangers prevents the ability from working. For every three levels a bard attains beyond 1st, he can target one additional creature with a single use of this ability.

To use the ability, a bard makes a Perform check. His check result is the DC for each affected creature’s Will save against the effect. If a creature’s saving throw succeeds, the bard cannot attempt to fascinate that creature again for 24 hours. If its saving throw fails, the creature sits quietly and listens to the song, taking no other actions, for as long as the bard continues to play and concentrate (up to a maximum of 1 round per bard level). While fascinated, a target takes a -4 penalty on skill checks made as reactions, such as Listen and Spot checks. Any potential threat requires the bard to make another Perform check and allows the creature a new saving throw against a DC equal to the new Perform check result.

Any obvious threat, such as someone drawing a weapon, casting a spell, or aiming a ranged weapon at the target, automatically breaks the effect. Fascinate is an enchantment (compulsion), mind-affecting ability.

The in-game situation was as such: the bard moved with a bat as scout (grey bag of tricks) searching for a Dark (hide in plain sight) fighter-type (their fight had gone on for some ten rounds already). The fighter kills the bat with an arrow, thus being visible for the bard who attempts to fascinate the fighter.

Will this work?

Here are some arguments for and against.

For: All conditions for the fascinate ability to work are fulfilled, and there are no nearby distractions. The bard holds a bow in hand, but it is not readied (no arrow to the string) nor is he aiming it anywhere. There are no other obvious threats to the fighter at this time.

Against: They are fighting, thus the mere presence of the bard is a threat and therefore the ability will not work.

[Tyger]

I'd have to go with "No, Fascinate doesn't work in this situation" as you are already in combat. The text is clear that "The distraction of a nearby combat or other dangers prevents the ability from working" which would be the defining part for me.

Generally, Fascinate is used almost as an ambush tactic... bard walks out of the forest toward the bandit camp already singing - that sort of thing. Gives the rest of the party time to get into place.

[mootoall]

I actually tend to use Fascinate with my BBEG bards. Give a speech to the townspeople to get them fascinated so they don't notice the goblins gathering, totally non-threateningly.

[Gwendol]

But the text you quote talks about "nearby combat" as a distraction. This is in relation of the subject not devoting its full attention on the bard.
In the present case there are no distractions nearby and the fighter very much has his full attention on the bard.

So, the question is still there: can the subject be fascinated under the current circumstance?

[Tyger]

There is a "nearby combat" as both the fighter and the bard are in one... the fighter just took down the scout, and the bard is obviously prepped for combat.

[Gwendol]

I actually tend to use Fascinate with my BBEG bards. Give a speech to the townspeople to get them fascinated so they don't notice the goblins gathering, totally non-threateningly.

I gather you use very small towns in your games? Level 20 bard: fascinate 9 creatures.

Again, by the text, combat is in relation to distractions; causing the subject not to be able to devote its attention to the bard.
Unless there is some piece of information missing in the SRD?

It is a valid point that the presence of the bard is enough for him to be forced to roll a perform check every round (potential threat), but to prevent him from using it altogether?

[Peregrine]

I'd allow fascinate. The only one fighting is the enemy itself; the bat's dead, the bard isn't ready to shoot and I assume he's not in melee range either. Thus the only actual "combat" just ended -- the bat lost.

The bard is clearly an enemy and a potential danger, thus allowing a new Will save every round, although a clever bard would put the bow down and make themselves look unthreatening. Others might not, but I as DM would reward that kind of thinking.

[Rickshaw]

I gather you use very small towns in your games?

feat: Speak to the masses - fascinate x2 the normal amount. I also seem to remember there being something that makes it based on your charisma or something? maybe a magic item?

having said that - the way my group determines stuff is that when initiative has been rolled, combat has begun. if people are still operating in rounds, then combat is still going.

also, a quote from the PHB

Any obvious threat, such as someone drawing a weapon, casting a spell, or aiming a ranged weapon at the target, automatically breaks the effect.

I would say that since a weapon is already out, any attempt to start a Fascination would automatically be broken.

[Peregrine]

I would say that since a weapon is already out, any attempt to start a Fascination would automatically be broken.

Ruleswise, I'd say drawing an arrow would be the threat that actually counts in this case. A bow isn't much use.

Reading between the lines, I believe "drawing a weapon" is an obvious threat because it says, "I wanna be startin' somethin'". Walking up with a weapon already in hand may or may not be an obvious threat, depending on what you're doing with it and why you have it out. Leaning on your quarterstaff as you walk? No. On guard duty with your spear in hand? No. Just been fighting, but the person you're about to fascinate thinks you're friendly? No. And walking through the woods with your bow out but your hand well away from the quiver? Closer, but I'd still say no.

[Tyger]

In this case though you have someone who is already actively engaged in the fight. He knows that the bard is trying to find him to continue that fight. The fact that there has been a brief lull in the hostilities (owing to the potential target using HiPs) doesn't change the fact that they are all trying to kill each other, and everyone knows that they are trying to kill each other.

[ffone]

In this case though you have someone who is already actively engaged in the fight. He knows that the bard is trying to find him to continue that fight. The fact that there has been a brief lull in the hostilities (owing to the potential target using HiPs) doesn't change the fact that they are all trying to kill each other, and everyone knows that they are trying to kill each other.

Agreed.

At best, I'd say that if fighter doesn't already recognize the bard as his enemy (which it sounds like he does) then maybe the Bard can make a bluff check (with some of those modifiers for a 'hard to believe' bluff that 'puts the target at risk') to convince the fighter that, ho hum deedly dee, he just happened to be prancing along through the forest with his bow out for general self defense, and hello kind sir is that bat stew you were hunting for, and mind sharing some if I sing for my supper?

[Gwendol]

That's a fine standpoint but I fail to see where in the rules that is stated.

For fascinate to work (and please correct me if I missed something) the following must apply:

1. Bard must see subject and be within 90 feet.

2. Subject must see and hear bard.

3. Subject must be able to pay attention to bard.

What does it mean to be able to pay attention: No distractions (of nearby combat or other dangers).

Further down there are examples of threats that would cause the bard to roll performance checks or simply break the enchantment:
Any potential threat requires the bard to make another Perform check and allows the creature a new saving throw against a DC equal to the new Perform check result.

Any obvious threat, such as someone drawing a weapon, casting a spell, or aiming a ranged weapon at the target, automatically breaks the effect. Fascinate is an enchantment (compulsion), mind-affecting ability.

Whether the two were engaged in combat is irrelevant in the current situation as far as I understand from reading the rules.

[ffone]

That's a fine standpoint but I fail to see where in the rules that is stated.

(...my snip...)

Whether the two were engaged in combat is irrelevant in the current situation as far as I understand from reading the rules.

The thing is that the RAW is, itself, dealing with situational and subjective things ('obvious threat' etc.), so we're not so much in debate over the rules, as what part of the RAW this particular situation would fall within (is the bard an 'obvious threat' given that he appeared immediately on the heels of a combat with a weapon drawn). It's a bit like the subjective edge cases where you're deciding whether a lull in a fight merits a new initiative roll or is a continuation of the same round sequence.

[Gwendol]

The bard held a bow in his hand (no arrow) and was well out of melee distance. So, a DM call then?

Thanks for the enlightening discussion!

[Tyger]

Well, everything is a DM call of course. :smallsmile:

That said, I think that RAW supports this not working. By your argument, a bard could be in melee combat with someone, then on his next initiative pass

1) Use a free action to drop his sword (now he's not armed)
2) Use a move action to take a free 5' step back (now he's not "in combat")
3) Start singing as a standard action and use Fascinate.

Clearly that is not how the ability is intended to be used. If you are in combat (and just because you couldn't see "fighter-type" owing to his HiPs doesn't mean you haven't been in combat the entire time) you can't use the power.

[Gwendol]

Actually, I would argue that this would work based on RAW: provided there are no distractions preventing the subject not to pay attention to the bard. For most cases this will only work in a one-on-one situation.

It is reasonable to force the bard to roll for performance every round (potential threat).

The thing is, fascinate used in this manner has little use expect hold up hostilities.

[Ardantis]

Gwendol~

I agree with your interpretation of the situation, although it is a close call.

In fact, I wonder if Fascinate wasn't meant to be a "hostilities-ender." I could see a bard in a duel dropping back and fascinating rather than fighting. With no other combat occurring in the vicinity (a given, of course, for fascinate to begin) the Bard effectively ends combat and threat, then begins to fascinate, and it's a whole new game.

Sorta diabolical, in my way of thinking, especially because a boosted Bardic Perform check beats out a Will save most of the time, even against the high save.

I'm building a Bard as a detective for an upcoming game, and am looking to understand his class features better. Thank you for the enlightening thread.