Ship to ship battles and magic. (d&d 3.5)

[kanachi]

Hiya everyone,

I’m going to be running a semi-sandbox like campaign (d&d 3.5, starting at level 4) in which the old world has been flooded many thousands of years ago (much like waterworld). There are islands which pepper the world but the heroes will be spending much of their time aboard naval vessels (which they can command and get a crew for). Obviously I want to enjoy some of the pirating and naval fun this type of setting allows.

I am probably going to run combat between the physical vessels themselves in a fairly abstract kind of way as I don’t want to overly complicate matters with any complex rules. The decks and any battles held upon them will however take place using the standard miniature layout.

I was just wondering if you guys had any advice for running such a campaign and secondly I am a little worried that magic and the abilities magic offers may overshadow everything else and dominate to much. Am I rightly concerned? If so should I take measures to keep magic in check somehow? Would a spell resistance for ships be a good thing (in a world of magic vessels are perhaps created with innate spell resistance seen as a necessity).

I’ve had a look at storm wrack and while it’s a good book with good ideas, it does not quite feel right for what I had in mind.

Anything you can offer would be great help!

[ILM]

First thing that comes to mind is how easy it is to set things on fire in D&D.

Second thing is how easy it would be to blow a hole below the waterline.

Also, Submerge Ship, level 9 Sorc/Wiz spell :smallbiggrin:.

[kanachi]

First thing that comes to mind is how easy it is to set things on fire in D&D.

Second thing is how easy it would be to blow a hole below the waterline.

Also, Submerge Ship, level 9 Sorc/Wiz spell :smallbiggrin:.

While i dont think high level spells will be a problem for a while (this takes place at level 4) magic does still seem to be a very powerful weapon in an aquatic setting like this.

I'm a bit worried that moving the setting to the seas will mage mage types to powerful. I dont really want to gimp my spell casting player but nore do i want him to run away with the game and totally overshadow the non magic heavy characters.

[mint]

My group played a pirate campaign a while ago.
We did a few things. I don't remember all but I think we have them written down somewhere.
The stuff I remember:

This defense bonus (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/adventuring/defenseBonus.htm) variant. Helps martial characters with AC. It is hard to swim in full-plate.

We used psionics instead of magic. It was part a flavor thing, pirates of dark waters was an inspiration and that felt more like psionics to us.
There are fewer powers than spells and none of them (i think) are weather or wind based. Also we don't know the system so well which made it weaker than vancian casting in our hands.
And I think it is probably a more balanced system, maybe.

We hacked out a system for "enchanting" ships. We are wary of using d&d economy as more than a guideline, a warship costs 30 000 gp and even the cheapest armor enchantment of fire resistance is like 18 000 gp and the CL for spell resistance is 15. So we kind of winged it.
We ran into a problem with giving ships enchantments. It felt very artificer-y, like magepunk. That wasn't really what we were going for.
Our solution was making it psionic flavoured bio-engineering.
Fire resistance for example was a thermotrophic fungal film on the hull.
Underwater breathing came from a little octopus like creature you stuck on your mouth.

[Bhaakon]

If you don't want to get too overbearing with rules modifications, it might be wise to remind the players that timbers large enough to build a decent-sized ship are worth their weight in gold in world that doesn't have much landmass for forests. If the PCs go around burning their opponents' ships to the water line, they're burning the lion's share of their loot (all of it, actually, if the rest of the loot is cargo). This could also be used to justify the widespread use of magical fire countermeasures and non-flammable materials (large bones, metal cladding, leather, etc) in boat making.

[Diarmuid]

Doesnt Stormwrack have a lot of useful information for naval/seagoing adventures?

[Tyndmyr]

Doesnt Stormwrack have a lot of useful information for naval/seagoing adventures?

It really does.

Remember, magic battle at range ending with a ship sinking = You probably have expended resources or require repairs. You receive no loot unless you swim down to the wreckage, in which case you get MORE risk, and marginal loot.

Any successful pirate/privateer/etc is going to want to either intimidate them into surrendering or go to a boarding action with the quickness.

[Nerd-o-rama]

If you are a pirate, a privateer, or the kind of navy who likes appropriating and ransoming enemy ships (which was most of the world's navies prior to the 20th century), you do not want to sink your enemy unless you have no other choice. Ships and their cargo/crew are too valuable. Shredding sails or clearing decks with area-of-effect damage spells is viable, but so's using ballistae and light catapults (or cannon, if you up the tech level) to do the same thing. If you want the enemy ship or something on it - and you probably do, or the encounter was only good for XP - you're still going to have to board and fight a normal hand-to-hand encounter. Honestly, a fight between two ships that each have a lowbie wizard or sorcerer is going to look a lot like a fight between two ships with cannon. Where you really get into magic being awesome in this setting is controlling the weather, particularly, the wind, to speed your ship or render the enemy's immobile.

Other important fact to remember about using Wizard spells to hole ships? Fire does half-damage to objects (i.e. ships), and lightning and ice do a quarter, and they're all affected by Hardness except for rare sonic spells. Given the thickness of hulls and the existence of spells that permanently increase Hardness...


I really recommend picking up Stormwrack. It's one of 3.5's best generic setting books, with lots of rules and options for high-seas campaigns exactly like what you're describing.

[Altair_the_Vexed]

Hiya everyone,
...
I’ve had a look at storm wrack and while it’s a good book with good ideas, it does not quite feel right for what I had in mind.
...


Doesnt Stormwrack have a lot of useful information for naval/seagoing adventures?


...I really recommend picking up Stormwrack. ...
Yeah, Stormwrack is good for this sort of thing, but the OP has already looked at it and decided not to use it.

Can I ask why not? That'll help keep us from just reiterating the cry of "Stormwrack is your friend!"

[Nerd-o-rama]

...skimmed right over the mention of Stormwrack in OP's post. Oops.

[Tyndmyr]

Oh, I saw it...and didn't see anything specific against it. I'd encourage a relook at it. Most of the stuff in there is either good enough to be used as is, or with only slight modifications. Easier than starting from scratch.

[kanachi]

Hiya guys, thanks for all the replys.

Stormwrack is a good book and I’m certainly going to use a lot of information from there but I found that when it came to magic it didn't really seem to take into account a lot of the problems I can foresee. It spent a lot of time explaining how certain spells function and while that’s all good and well it did not really put my mind at ease. Its not just that any single spell on its own that is necessarily devastating, though I'm pretty sure we could all think up some ways in which ever level 1 spells could be pretty devastating, its more the fact that the full range of spell availible and time a caster has to use them which worries me.

Players (that aren't flying mages or shapechanged druids or waterwalking clerics) are likely to be able to be constrained in manoeuvre until the ships are grappled together, and you can see another problem - the spellcasters will have time to buff themselves and the party to the gills while the ships close with each other. The spellcasters will likely have more time to cast their long range spells as the ships are closing, especially on stern chases. Visibility is going to be long, so spellcasters will have opportunities to cast divinations to ascertain the difficulty/intent of other ships.

Nothing was really said on how to keep the melee folk from getting heavily pushed to the sidelines. While mages are exchanging fireballs at 400+ feet what are the other players doing? How do i keep them all equally involved as a team.

Stormwrack while good did not seem to address this fundamental advantage that the situation will grant a spellcaster.

It also did not seem to factor in that if the ships were built in such a world (with magic and the like), surely craft, even the most basic ones, would be enchanted in some way by design. Who would risk sea trade or exploration if a single warp wood spell could put an end to everything in an instant.

Finally there is the problem of the crew. Not all of them will be high level, how do I protect them? An unmanned ship is as good as lost. Then there is the general problem with any such encounter involving large numbers of npcs and combatants, keeping it all flowing and focusing on the turns which the key individuals within the battle are involved within. I’ve run such things before however (attacks on town and the like) but unlike a villager who will likely just hide in his barn till everything blows over at least some crew need to stay at their posts when the fireballs are flying.

So far the only solution I can easily think up is that some form of "god of the sea" is overlooking the world. This god has a fondness for ships and by his grace grants them some kind of % chance per round antimagic shield to all sea going vessles. He also has a dislike of spell casters and has some way of limiting them to 1 buff per hour.

Does such an idea seem to over the top? Is there a better solution you guys can think up?

[Tvtyrant]

I suggest snagging Al-Qadim or Spelljammer from 2E for more ship fighting supplements.

I don't see why a ship needs magic protection, because:
1. Most of the ship is already soaked through and fireball doesn't set things on fire, only injures them. NM fire isn't really available in ship destroying amounts.
2. The spells that can really damage a ship (disintegrate) aren't available till moderately high levels, at which point a Wizard could make one fly using Tenser's Disk anyway.
3. If a wizard destroys a ship they just annihilated the money they could have gotten off of the ship.
4. There aren't very many spell casters.

If I was going to run a ship based D&D game I would steal the system from Spelljammer where a ships hull takes 1 damage for every 10 dealt, and then has HP like a Gargantuan creature. You can damage the sails and the like but sinking it is almost impossible.

[PollyOliver]

I'm in a pbp seafaring game right now (we're in our first combat at the moment, and just boarded the enemy ship). The DM has pretty much just given the ships and sails energy resistance to avoid the problem of how ridiculously easy it would be to take out a ship from afar without it. It might strain credulity a little bit depending on how high/low magic your world is, but it's a straightforward solution that keeps noncasters relevant but doesn't prevent a powerful enough spellcaster from being able to do awesome things later on, when they can overcome the resistance.

Edit: TvTyrant--I don't think it's wizards destroying the enemy ship with magic that's the potential problem so much as throwing a fireball in their sails, disabling them, and then attacking from afar at leisure.

[Douglas]

fireball doesn't set things on fire, only injures them
Read it again (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/fireball.htm). In particular, "The fireball sets fire to combustibles and damages objects in the area."

[PollyOliver]

Read it again (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/fireball.htm). In particular, "The fireball sets fire to combustibles and damages objects in the area."

And considering that sails are canvas and ships are, despite being wet, wood sealed up with tar and other flammable goodies....

[kanachi]

I don't think it's wizards destroying the enemy ship with magic that's the potential problem so much as throwing a fireball in their sails, disabling them, and then attacking from afar at leisure.

agreed.

Buff overload also troubles me. As does mass crew killing.

More than anything however my worry is that the other players will be largely on the sidelines for how ever many rounds it takes before the wizard gets board. How do I encourage the players to get close and personal as quickly as possible.

I’m sure I could pull off a surprise attack in the mist once or twice, or a midnight ambush or a boarding party of aquatic monsters but if I try for such situational things to much they will begin to seem very pre-ordained.

I also don’t want to seem like I’m purposefully gimping spellcasters but I think ensuring that the whole party has fun and is involved is essential.

[PollyOliver]

Buff overload might get to be an issue if you have a lot of casters who decide to use their rounds before boarding buffing the melee-types. But, really, that's one of the least disruptive things the casters could be doing in terms of balance of contribution from the party members (and, the enemy casters can do the same thing).

Also, is there a separate crew besides the PCs? Because if there isn't, the PCs are going to have to spend actions (standard action in stormwrack) to steer the ship and keep the sails in trim and all that jazz heading up to the fight, which limits their options a little bit. And if not...well, a meleer can drink a potion to buff himself, or an archer can start shooting at the enemy. Being ready with weapons drawn and buffs up and with maneuvers switched around and in wild shape (if you've got a druid or WS ranger, and ToB people) and a running start for your jump check to board as they near is not exactly a waste of actions.

And I agree that you want to make sure everyone can contribute well. You don't want to nerf casters so hard that they can't do anything. But in my experience, that's pretty hard to do, because casters are so up there in power. Whatever you do decide to do, though, you should probably tell the limited spells-known casters before they pick their spells, in case you nerf a trick they were planning on using.

[CigarPete]

To be honest, I think your best bet is the same as in a normal campaign, multiple encounters/day. The second or third ship they fight will suddenly become very difficult after they've used up all their spell slots on the first one. It's not until much higher levels that they have the capability to be able to sling fireballs around like so many marbles.

Another thing to consider, if all the local shipping lanes are being pirated by your PCs, perhaps the local merchants will start sending out their ships together, or even accompanied by a warship of some kind. Most wooden ocean-going ships did not sail alone.

[Draig]

Visibility is going to be long, so spellcasters will have opportunities to cast divinations to ascertain the difficulty/intent of other ships.

Nothing was really said on how to keep the melee folk from getting heavily pushed to the sidelines. While mages are exchanging fireballs at 400+ feet what are the other players doing? How do i keep them all equally involved as a team.


Finally there is the problem of the crew. Not all of them will be high level, how do I protect them? An unmanned ship is as good as lost. Then there is the general problem with any such encounter involving large numbers of npcs and combatants, keeping it all flowing and focusing on the turns which the key individuals within the battle are involved within. I’ve run such things before however (attacks on town and the like) but unlike a villager who will likely just hide in his barn till everything blows over at least some crew need to stay at their posts when the fireballs are flying.



Divination isnt always a 100% clear answer on what is happening or what a person's intent is. Also you could try having enemy ships and even other ships in general have buffers against divination. You could even justify it by saying that in a world where land masses are few and far between merchants and pirates alike will try to hide where they are going to protect its location.

First off the other ships might have spellcasters as well and it might come down to the mage going from an offensive weapon to having to attempt to counterspell and dispel what the other ships throw at the party. Also in a world that is mostly Ship to Ship battles it would seem irresponsible for a character, no matter what class, to NOT have a ranged weapon of some sort.
Also if the mages are clearing the enemy ship's deck just have most of the armed forces and defenses of that ship hide inside. Once the ships close the enemy ship becomes crawling with NPCs trying to defend their ship.

And for the Crew, Any non-essential crew at the time can hide below. You could even make it a plot hook at one time or another that a certain character cant move because the enemy is trying to slaughter the crew. Also nothing says that the crew will have to fight. You can mark their position on the map and say they are continueing their actions. (That even goes back to the mage having to defend the ship other than blast the enemy crew) And once two ships are locked in with each other u can say that the crew flees belowdecks. All very possible things that could be done.

[ffone]

If you don't want to get too overbearing with rules modifications, it might be wise to remind the players that timbers large enough to build a decent-sized ship are worth their weight in gold in world that doesn't have much landmass for forests. If the PCs go around burning their opponents' ships to the water line, they're burning the lion's share of their loot (all of it, actually, if the rest of the loot is cargo). This could also be used to justify the widespread use of magical fire countermeasures and non-flammable materials (large bones, metal cladding, leather, etc) in boat making.

Logical and genius!

[Deadtissue]

I ran a pirate campaign for about a year and used info from Stormwrack and Salt and Seaddogs.

Most surprising thing was given you can spot a ship about 15 miles away on a clear day it often took close to 3 days for the PC's relatively fast ship to catch even a slow merchant, and then 10's of minutes spent closing from long to short range for archery and spells.

Lots of time to prep and ready buffs and wet down the sails and decks in anticipation for fire. Also lots of time for an escaping ship to consider its options for fight or flight (or surrender).

The campaign made it to around 10th level and I never had any problems with spells or ship destruction. In fact the groups mage (sorcerer blood magus) stayed away from fire spells as he did not want to do undue damage to a ship they could later sell for 1000's or 10s of 1000's of gold.

The campaign was loads of fun.

[kanachi]

Sorry for the late reply guys, I was away for a few days.

I just wanted to thank you all for some awesome replies. I really like some of your ideas.

I think I will implement a kind of "shield" mechanism to the ships so they can absorb so much magic before being overwhelmed and shutting down for a time (almost like a star ship from a sci-fi movie). If you have any ideas on a quick and easy way to achieve such a thing please let me know, your ideas and input are invaluable!

Thanks once again!

[Aricandor]

As Bhaakon mentioned, the ships themselves are going to be by far the most valueable things. Fire on ships is bad, even in small amounts, as it can easily spread and muck things up completely. I would point it out to the player that "capturing ships is a primary objective in such combat in this setting" and then just let them play that as they wish. If they want to build a reputation as magical shipwreckers, I don't see much reason to stop them. :smallsmile:

Really, most of the magical tricks used in naval combat, with the obvious exception of weather control, aren't going to be much different than on land. The funkiest thing I can even manage that makes it different would be to use archers or similar enhanced with Fly or summoned flying monsters as a sort of air superiority fighters using normal ships as their "carriers". :smallbiggrin:

[Zaranthan]

I'd say your best bet would be a sort of gentlemen's agreement: ships simply don't engage in endless pursuits while nipping at one another's heels and toes. If the defending ship is faster, it simply escapes without some sort of external circumstance (such as the attackers bringing a druid who turns the tradewinds in their favor). If the defending ship is slower, its best tactic is to turn and force boarding action on its own terms rather than risk getting all its rigging shot up as a wizard shoots fireballs at them for weeks.

There might be an initial one or two round "cannonade" pass, where the ships' attending spellcasters fling some heavy mojo to try and gain an advantage (a fortunate spell might ruin one ship's mainsail, forcing a surrender, or simply disable a significant portion of the crew), but then both ships want to just ram into each other and start stabbing the other crew, because two crippled ships limping home is just asking to be taken by a fresh opportunist.

[Endarire]

"Many thousands of years ago." Uh oh. Why hasn't some Wizard, caster, or extraplanar creature swooped in and started making tons of money (or gaining cult followers, sacrifices, or other desirable resources) by making land? Earth, Air, and Water Elementals (summoned or called) could rearrange the terrain to make a fair size island in a week or less. Minecraft has taught me that making land is easy.

What about Artificers? Have they discovered ironclad ships yet? What about flying vessels? What spell lists can the players access? If Ur-Priest (Complete Divine) or/and Divine Crusader (Complete Divine)Trapsmith (Dungeonscape), you could have a native landmaker without resorting to extraplanars. (An Artificer can make scrolls and items of level 6 spells at Artificer4, assuming he has the creation feat and the resources.)

How do you feel about doing Spelljammer (interplanar ship) combat instead? It would work better within the rules with fewer stretches and 'Huh?' moments.

[thefirecrack3r]

"Many thousands of years ago." Uh oh. Why hasn't some Wizard, caster, or extraplanar creature swooped in and started making tons of money (or gaining cult followers, sacrifices, or other desirable resources) by making land? Earth, Air, and Water Elementals (summoned or called) could rearrange the terrain to make a fair size island in a week or less. Minecraft has taught me that making land is easy.

What about Artificers? Have they discovered ironclad ships yet? What about flying vessels? What spell lists can the players access? If Ur-Priest (Complete Divine) or/and Divine Crusader (Complete Divine)Trapsmith (Dungeonscape), you could have a native landmaker without resorting to extraplanars. (An Artificer can make scrolls and items of level 6 spells at Artificer4, assuming he has the creation feat and the resources.)

How do you feel about doing Spelljammer (interplanar ship) combat instead? It would work better within the rules with fewer stretches and 'Huh?' moments.

Probably because he doesn't plan on it being a high magic setting. I personally have played a low magic campaign where we hadn't touched magic weapons at level 6 and mostly fought with other humanoids in martial combat. I've personally never played in high magic setting because I feel its built have "huh?" moments and can feel unfair.

[Curbstomp]

Stormwrack takes a little while to learn, but I have played in 1 waterworld-style campaign and been the DM for several that utilized Stormwrack and it really gets the job done. It addresses most of the specific concerns that you voiced. If you want help navigating the book or with particular issues PM me. I have over 10,000 hours of running D&D 3.5 under my belt and if I can't find the answer I'm sure one of the fifteen players I currently run games for can.

[dextercorvia]

Some spells that really make a difference ship to ship.

1st Level
Hail of Stone deals damage to objects and can really wreck the rigging of a ship. It is medium range, so can go into effect at the same time as cannons are an issue.
Sticky Floor/Grease are nice but short range.

2nd Level
Kelgore's Grave Mist -- Big area, everyone takes small damage and is fatigued. The damage is enough to kill low level mooks though. It is hard to sail a ship when half your crew is dead. Also medium range
Glitterdust -- (Preferably sculpted) Blinding the captain and chunks of the enemy crew is a great way to get things rolling in your favor.
Web -- The ususal problem is finding opposing solid surfaces to anchor it to. Ships have tons of them. Suddenly no one can move effectively.

3rd Level
Stinking Cloud -- Nauseated creatures don't fight back
Fireball -- Clearing mooks at long range? Yes please. Unlikely to sink the ship as the remaining crew will waste their actions putting any fires you start out -- so they don't die as quickly.
Sleet Storm -- Long range they can't move effectively on their ship.
Haboob -- Medium range, deals damage each round (more than Kelgore's Grave Mist) and for longer. Since they can't get away from it (except by going below where they are worthless to defend the ship, or jumping in the water), they don't get a save after the first round.

So, yes, Magic can wreck ship to ship combat. This means that any ship worth sailing on is going to have a mage capable of doing similar things to your ship, or dispelling ongoing affects on their own.

[Shining Wrath]

The rulers of the seas on a per-capita basis? Wood elves.


What are ships made of? Wood.
Who is the best at growing and working that material? Wood elves.

What propels ships? Wind.
What class is the best at manipulating wind? Druids.
Which race stereotypically produces the most druids, being both close to nature and getting a wisdom boost? Wood elves.

What's the best way to destroy an enemy fleet? A hurricane.
Who's going to be able to cast hurricane from 100' underwater in the form of a shark, then personally eat the survivors? A wood-elf druid with a taste for human flesh.


Once you get within fireball range (600 to 1200 feet), anything flammable on deck is taking a beating. Catapults have 200' range increment sot if you take the penalty to chance of hitting you can fire up to 2000'. Fleets who believe themselves at a disadvantage in spell casters are going to try to maneuver and lob rocks (or casks of oil with fuses?) while staying outside long range spell casting.

There's going to have to be some special magic developed to make the ships, especially the sails, resistant to fire. That's an 18,000 GP boost to the price of a piece of armor, and a galley is nominally 30,000 GP, so if you want to wave your hands and let the same effort protect a 130' x 20' ship as a suit of armor, you can have resist 10 on your ships for a 60% price increase.

[Shining Wrath]

I ran a pirate campaign for about a year and used info from Stormwrack and Salt and Seaddogs.

Most surprising thing was given you can spot a ship about 15 miles away on a clear day it often took close to 3 days for the PC's relatively fast ship to catch even a slow merchant, and then 10's of minutes spent closing from long to short range for archery and spells.

Lots of time to prep and ready buffs and wet down the sails and decks in anticipation for fire. Also lots of time for an escaping ship to consider its options for fight or flight (or surrender).

The campaign made it to around 10th level and I never had any problems with spells or ship destruction. In fact the groups mage (sorcerer blood magus) stayed away from fire spells as he did not want to do undue damage to a ship they could later sell for 1000's or 10s of 1000's of gold.

The campaign was loads of fun.

Read the accounts of, e.g., Trafalgar (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Trafalgar). Nelson' fleet formed up in to two lines, approached the French / Spanish fleet at about 2 miles an hour while the lead ships absorbed all the fire the enemy fleet could direct at them for several ours. That's NOT going to work if instead of cannon you're taking fireballs and lightning bolts.

[Lightlawbliss]

guys, this thread is from 2011.

[Wolfepuppy]

I'm currently running a naval campaign. We started out playing without anyone being a mage so everything was fine. Then we had another player join and be a wizard. To balance this, most of the ships that are worth anything, or have anything worthwhile on them carry a mage of around the same level or higher. If mages are prevalent in the world this is no problehttp://www.giantitp.com/forums/images/smilies/smallstick/smallwink.gifm. A company or nation that has a strong maritime presents is going to make every possible effort to ensure that their ships get to where they need to go. Sailors are a very prepared bunch. The have backup plans upon backup plans. When you're out at sea you have to have a plane B and C and will often have a plan D and E if you've been at it long. Therefore, it is not unreasonable for any ship with high value cargo to have a mage or two. Many of my mages specialize in abjuration, allowing them to counter spells more effectively. Likewise, it wouldn't be unreasonable for a ship to carry a blaster of some sort. In the case of merchant vessels, they might prefer to sink or disable a pursuing ship before any boarding has a chance to take place. The sailors aboard the ship will not be very interested in putting their lives at risk by capturing a pirate ship for their company. Most of them wouldn't see a dime of it. So your players should know that they always run the risk of having their ship sunk as well. If their the pirates, this should happen more often to them than to the ships they are attacking. As for the lack of involvement for the other players thats a tricky one. Most of my encounters get to the grappling action really quickly which I'm actually thinking about changing a bit. If the players are crewing the vessel they have to make some checks every round. However, if they're like my players they have a crew. So good luck with that :smallwink:

[Haruki-kun]

The Winged Mod: Thread Necromancy.