On Warlocks

[dark.sun.druid]

Hey. I was just curious to see what the patrons of this forum thought about the Warlock class (from CArc). I know that it isn't as powerful as a wizard, sorcerer, cleric, psion, et cetera, but I have wanted for a while now to play as one. I am just looking for both pros and cons, both crunchwise and fluffwise. Any input would be greatly appreciated. Thanks.

[Telonius]

The general consensus on the Cons is that, as you mentioned, there's a distinct lack of power. The damage given by Eldritch Blast scales poorly, even if you use things like Hellfire Warlock.* On the plus side for Crunch, Deceive Item and Imbue Item are great. For the Invocations, there are tons of nice debuffs and things to help a sneaky, charismatic character. Beguiling Influence, in particular, is used in a lot of diplomancer builds, thanks to its bonus being untyped.

* - Hellfire Warlock is a fairly risky proposition, if you aren't able to take a one-level dip in Binder, or if the DM doesn't allow Naberius to get rid of the Con damage. RAW, it works, but to some DMs it just "feels wrong."

Pros and Cons of the fluff depend entirely on the setting.

Just in general, I've found Warlock to be a lot of fun to play. It's officially listed as a Tier 4, but I'd say it's on the high end of Tier 4. Add in Hellfire Warlock and I'd call it a 3.

[faceroll]

They're easy to mess up, but carefully built and proper itemization puts them solidly in tier 3. With Hellfire Warlock and something like Eldritch Chain or Eldritch Cone, their damage is comparable to a warblade, and no one ever QQs about warblade damage.

Chilling Tentacles are really good, as are their dispels. They have a lot of endurance, and that should be taken advantage of. They have access to flight, (short range) teleportation, and invisibility, which are all pretty clutch abilities in D&D.

Biggest weakness is horrendously few invocations known.

[McSmack]

Many feel that the warlock is underpowered as a blaster. Here's a recent thread showing the warlock in some other party roles, as such it might answer your question.

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=194337&highlight=warlock

I've always liked the Warlock. They're a blaster, and they lose out on sheer blasting power to a well designed sorcerer, but they have more staying power since their invocations and blasts are at-will SLA's with no daily limit.

So from a sheer power standpoint they aren't as good as other classes. So what says I. They have some of the fluffiest fluff of all and they're just fun to play. They're simple to use and have some really great abilities.

[Person_Man]

In general I think it's a great concept with mediocre execution. Unfortunately, there's really not much that's unique to a Warlock that other classes can't replicate more efficiently while also doing other cool stuff.

You may wish to look at the Dragonfire Adept, Incarnate, and to a lesser extent the Totemist or Binder. Each is capable of at will blasting and magical tricks, but better. The Dragonfire Adept is the closest equivalent, with an at will breath weapon (which effects multiple enemies) and Invocations similar to the Warlock (which notably run on a separate track from breath augmentations, unlike the Warlock, which must split up his Invocations between stuff that augments his Eldritch Blast and everything else).

The Incarnate can start at first level with a 2d6 touch attack (Lightning Gauntlets) and 2d6 retributive damage whenever they're attacked in melee (Mantle of Flame), and if you swap out your soulmelds and build intelligently you can out damage the Warlock at every level (Dissolving Spittle bound to your Throat Chakra shot by you and a Familiar which you Share Soulmelds with) and still have 80% of your resources left over to do whatever else he wants.

The Totemist is a melee melee monster, but can switch over to reliable high damage breath weapons by mid levels. And his save DC's are all Con based. Similarly the Binder has a lot of cool blasty stuff. He can only use most of it once every 5 rounds, but with the right PrC and vestige selection by mid levels you can usually use one every round.

[Dusto]

Sorry, I don't mean to hijack the thread, but I'm curious. Could you post a sample Binder build around 9th-10th level? The reason I ask is that we had one in our party for awhile, and it must have been very poorly built, because he was just about the mostly useless character. He had a couple of useful tricks(summon a horse, summon armor), but besides that, he was terrible.

[Tokiko Mima]

The strength of Warlock seems to be all the support it got after Complete Arcane. Out of the box, they're pretty disappointing, but add Eldritch Glaive (from Dragon Magic) and suddenly they get a lot more competitive.

[Person_Man]

Sorry, I don't mean to hijack the thread, but I'm curious. Could you post a sample Binder build around 9th-10th level?

That's really simple. Binder 10. Required Feat: Improved Binder. Bind Zceryll (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/frcc/20070718) and whatever else you think is fun.

Zceryll grants Alien Form, Alien Mind, Bolts of Madness, Summon Alien, and Telepathy with Mindsight. The Psuedonatural template, which gives you Spell Resistance, DR, Energy Resistance, the Outsider type, an Alternate Form, and other moderate perks. Bolts of Madness is a Daze effect (almost nothing is immune) that lasts 1d3 rounds (Will negates). Summon Alien lets you summon as a Sorcerer of your Binder level once every five rounds, and everything you summon gets the psuedonatural template for free. This isn't as broken as it sounds - keep in mind that a Summon spell only lasts 1 round per level, and that the list of creatures you can Summon is limited to things that can have the Psuedonatural template on it and your alignment. But this ability by itself makes you useful and fun in virtually every situation. And on top of that, you get Telepathy and Mindsight (really excellent blindsight).

For your second vestige I'm fond of The Triad (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20070119a), which grants proficiency with every exotic weapon (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=88633), or Haures which grants continuous Mind Blank (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/mindBlank.htm), Incorporeal Movement, plus at will Major Image (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/mindBlank.htm) (which has tons of fun options built into it) once every five rounds. There's also Focalor for a Save or Blind breath weapon and Lightning, Karsus for UMD and superior magic item/weapon use, Astaroth for Suggestion and another breath weapon with a potent debuff, Desharis for Animate Objects, and/or some feat related tricks with Combat Panache (PHBII), Winged Warrior (Races of the Wild), and various Fear options.

But they're not really necessary. First round Daze your most potent enemy (skip this if there isn't an elite enemy), second round Summon whatever you think is interesting or useful, third round use your backup abilities from your second vestige. And you're set.

[Dusto]

Wow, yeah that sounds amazing compared to what he was doing. Our group is completely new to a lot of the books, but we have collected almost all the 3.5 books now and are exploring. I will be sure to pass along that information to him, I know he was disappointed in his binder, maybe this would help him enjoy the character again. Thank you!

[gorfnab]

Here are two handbooks that may give you some ideas of what to do and not do with warlocks and binders.
Warlock Information Compilation (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?PHPSESSID=90impkjp3d364t9io97vjuuj44&topic=2915.0)
Binder's Guide (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=11235.0)

[Person_Man]

In your friend's defense, most of the Binder's best stuff is online and in Dragon Magazine and/or requires non-traditional strategies in order to be awesome, the Incarnum rules are notoriously confusing, and many of the best spells appear weak compared to blasty stuff until someone explains how powerful battlefield control and buffing can be. (Seriously, who read Alter Self for the first time and thought that it was more powerful then Fireball?) In this way 3.5 is very similar to Magic the Gathering.

[Optimator]

Warlocks are a lot of fun IMO. Extra Invocation FTW.

[true_shinken]

Hellfire Warlock is a fairly risky proposition, if you aren't able to take a one-level dip in Binder, or if the DM doesn't allow Naberius to get rid of the Con damage. RAW, it works, but to some DMs it just "feels wrong."
That's the second time I see someone mentioning this here in the playground. How come can it 'feel wrong' to use the ability exactly as intended? You take the damage then you heal it! The class text mentions buying wands of lesser restoration!!

[Lateral]

Plus, their flavor meshes pretty damn well. It's a powerful character concept, and it's great RP- I don't understand why people ban it.