Minotaur Greathammer, What Up with That?

[McSmack]

MM4, Exotic two handed weapon 1d12 damage 19-20/x4. Did they ever errata this or were they just actively trying to make every other two hander obsolete? The damage seems to be fine, but that crit range is scary good.

I'm not saying it's a bad thing. I think exotic weapons need a bit more umph to make the feat requirement worth it. And this would be a good example of what a true exotic weapon should be.

So my question is does anyone actually let their players use this in their games? If so, do you modifly it, and how do you handle the cost, which isn't listed in the book?

[Tokuhara]

MM4, Exotic two handed weapon 1d12 damage 19-20/x4. Did they ever errata this or were they just actively trying to make every other two hander obsolete? The damage seems to be fine, but that crit range is scary good.

I'm not saying it's a bad thing. I think exotic weapons need a bit more umph to make the feat requirement worth it. And this would be a good example of what a true exotic weapon should be.

So my question is does anyone actually let their players use this in their games? If so, do you modifly it, and how do you handle the cost, which isn't listed in the book?

I personally asked my DM the same question, and he said this:

"To obtain it, you either have to kill a Greathorn Minotaur or purchase it from one."

He set the price as about a Great Falchion from Sandstorm and so during character generation, I grabbed the hammer, saying my first gladiatorial match was against a Greathorn and he ok'ed it.

[Swok]

Oh don't worry, it got nerfed in errata down to the crappy level of almost every other exotic weapon. I think it was something like 1d12/X4.
I'd rather use a scythe unless I'm using size increasing stuff like greater mighty wallop and the like Then I guess it would be okay.

[Brock Samson]

Darn errata, almost made a non-spiked-chain exotic weapon worth having.

[Veyr]

The Greathorn Minotaur Hammer (pre-errata?) was probably not worth the Exotic Weapon Proficiency feat. Now it definitely isn't.

The fact that it's the only <20-20/x>2 crit weapon in the game is just pathetic.

[Darrin]

Oh don't worry, it got nerfed in errata down to the crappy level of almost every other exotic weapon.

My understanding was there wasn't any errata on the Minotaur Greathammer. There are some who claim it was updated in Races of Stone as the Goliath Greathammer with nerfed stats, but there's a contingent that insists "different name = different weapon".

[Veyr]

"Greathorn Minotaur Hammer" and "Goliath Greathammer" don't seem even remotely alike; calling that "errata" is merely wishful thinking on those people's part. Especially considering that Greathorn Minotaurs are actually Large creatures, while Goliaths are merely Medium with Powerful Build.

Anyway, good, I'm glad that didn't happen. Exotic weapons need all the help they can get.

[Ernir]

There is the issue of the Greathammer Minotaur statblock listing it as a x4 weapon. The weapon description takes precedence, but it bears mentioning.


So my question is does anyone actually let their players use this in their games?
Hasn't come up yet, but yes, I would allow it.

[Greenish]

MM4, Exotic two handed weapon 1d12 damage 19-20/x4. Did they ever errata this or were they just actively trying to make every other two hander obsolete?It doesn't, really. The crit range is too low for fishers, and it lacks the better tricks some weapons have, such as tripping or reach. And reach is the king.

Now, on the other hand, pre-errata Talenta Sharrash…

[Thurbane]

So my question is does anyone actually let their players use this in their games? If so, do you modifly it, and how do you handle the cost, which isn't listed in the book?
I know this has already been addressed, but...absolutely, yes. This is what exotic weapons should look like. Not like the Bastard Sword - spend a feat for a pathetic 1 point of better damage, on average (d10 vs. d8)?

As it stands, the Spiked Chain and Minotaur Greathammer are more-or-less the only exotic weapons considered worth the feat.

[Hiro Protagonest]

I know this has already been addressed, but...absolutely, yes. This is what exotic weapons should look like. Not like the Bastard Sword - spend a feat for a pathetic 1 point of better damage, on average (d10 vs. d8)?

As it stands, the Spiked Chain and Minotaur Greathammer are more-or-less the only exotic weapons considered worth the feat.

The dwarven warpike is also good.

[Hirax]

Taking another swing at this dead horse, the spiked chain and minotaur greathammer are how powerful all other exotic weapons should be, not the other way around.

[Benly]

I'm also fond lately of the Ramhammer, which gives a bull rush bonus and lets you bull rush at reach - very nice for the right Dungeon Crasher.

[Hiro Protagonest]

Taking another swing at this dead horse, the spiked chain and minotaur greathammer are how powerful all other exotic weapons should be, not the other way around.

Totally. All the way. Fullblade and bastard sword are underpowered, and the only reason to take a dwarven waraxe is if you're a dwarf so you don't have to spend a feat.

[Greenish]

As it stands, the Spiked Chain and Minotaur Greathammer are more-or-less the only exotic weapons considered worth the feat.Well, there are Valenar Double Scimitar and Dragonsplit for TWF, Meteor Hammer for huge reach, Kusari-gamas for light reach weapons, Gnomish Quickrazor for Iaijutsu Focus, boomerangs for Boomerang Daze, Pincer Staff, Sharktooth Staff or Scorpion Claws for grappling and of course ribbon weapons for crittity madness.

And if they hadn't nerfed Talenta Sharrash, with it's 19-20/x4 crit, reach and tripping, it'd make it to the list too.

[Ormur]

There is the issue of the Greathammer Minotaur statblock listing it as a x4 weapon. The weapon description takes precedence, but it bears mentioning.

Hasn't come up yet, but yes, I would allow it.

Did you throw it away?

Edit: Yes, I actually gave my players one indirectly by equipping a NPC with a +1 Minotaur Greathammer of Impact (deviously suggested by a players as a good choice).

I hoped said NPC might have a chance to bash the players with it but he died in round one. Well, the melee players need a boost anyway.

[Ernir]

Did you throw it away?

Edit: Yes, I actually gave my players one indirectly by equipping a NPC with a +1 Minotaur Greathammer of Impact (deviously suggested by a players as a good choice).

I hoped said NPC might have a chance to bash the players with it but he died in round one. Well, the melee players need a boost anyway.

No, we haven't thrown it away.

We just haven't been able to get Swooper to use it, either. :smallannoyed:

[Thurbane]

Well, there are Valenar Double Scimitar and Dragonsplit for TWF, Meteor Hammer for huge reach, Kusari-gamas for light reach weapons, Gnomish Quickrazor for Iaijutsu Focus, boomerangs for Boomerang Daze, Pincer Staff, Sharktooth Staff or Scorpion Claws for grappling and of course ribbon weapons for crittity madness.
All true. But I guess my point was more that the vast bulk of exotic weapons are really, really not worth a feat. Bastard Sword is the perfect exmaple, and it's a trap for new players (one I fell into myself, in fact).

A dip into Master of Masks, for the Gladiator Mask, isn't half bad. Proficiency with all exotic (and martial) weapons? Yes please. Of course, this assumes you've got the skill points to blow, and your build can take a 1 place BAB hit.

[myancey]

And if they hadn't nerfed Talenta Sharrash, with it's 19-20/x4 crit, reach and tripping, it'd make it to the list too.

Sadly, they did nerf the weapon. The weapon is now 19-20/x2. :smallconfused:

As for outrageous weapons, have you guys seen the whips in Sandstorm? I haven't seen any nerfing on them.

[Adrayll]

Kusari-gamas for light reach weapons

By RAW, you can TWF the DMG kusari-gamas (they're a light weapon with no provision against it). :smalleek:

If you've ever seen one, I beg you to explain to me exactly how one would go about this. :smallbiggrin:

[Divide by Zero]

By RAW, you can TWF the DMG kusari-gamas (they're a light weapon with no provision against it). :smalleek:

If you've ever seen one, I beg you to explain to me exactly how one would go about this. :smallbiggrin:

Shouldn't they be two-handed anyway? I always thought that was weird.

[Thurbane]

As for outrageous weapons, have you guys seen the whips in Sandstorm? I haven't seen any nerfing on them.
You can use one at your game, so long as you provide your own d43. Not a random number gen, an actual 43 sided dice! :smallbiggrin:

[Jjeinn-tae]

I'm also fond lately of the Ramhammer, which gives a bull rush bonus and lets you bull rush at reach - very nice for the right Dungeon Crasher.

Yes! I love the Ramhammer, never seen anyone else pay much attention to them though. There's just something satisfying about batting enemies around the room with a big hammer.

[Adrayll]

Shouldn't they be two-handed anyway? I always thought that was weird.

They are in Oriental Adventures. The version found in the DMG, however list them as a light weapon. Poor stats (i believe 1d6 20/x2), but hey, they toggle reach optionally, can do most of the spike chain tricks, and you can do it with two at once.

[Dusk Eclipse]

By RAW, you can TWF the DMG kusari-gamas (they're a light weapon with no provision against it). :smalleek:

If you've ever seen one, I beg you to explain to me exactly how one would go about this. :smallbiggrin:

Like this:smalltongue: (the image is al ink)


http://www.kirinhobby.com/shop/images/TY1/TYNE01626_kh.jpg (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QMvOkuGvttg)

[herrhauptmann]

So my question is does anyone actually let their players use this in their games? If so, do you modifly it, and how do you handle the cost, which isn't listed in the book?
Actually yes. Here's the character sheet. (http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheetview.php?sheetid=252041) And here's the pbp (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=9783726#post9783726) it's in.

[myancey]

You can use one at your game, so long as you provide your own d43. Not a random number gen, an actual 43 sided dice! :smallbiggrin:

Yeah...that was always the issue. As the DM, I'd probably just not allow it at all..but if I did, I'd have the player roll 2 d20s and a d10. Divide the d10 roll in half (rounding down), and then subtract 2. I think that comes out right.

But your idea works better in the sense that you're technically still allowing all material. Nice.

[Divide by Zero]

Yeah...that was always the issue. As the DM, I'd probably just not allow it at all..but if I did, I'd have the player roll 2 d20s and a d10. Divide the d10 roll in half (rounding down), and then subtract 2. I think that comes out right.

But your idea works better in the sense that you're technically still allowing all material. Nice.

The problem there is that three dice have a substantially different distribution of values than a single die with the same maximum. The only ways to do it properly (barring silly custom dice shenanigans) is to either use a computer/calculator/whatever to simulate it or do something like rolling d% and rerolling results over 43.

[myancey]

The problem there is that three dice have a substantially different distribution of values than a single die with the same maximum. The only ways to do it properly (barring silly custom dice shenanigans) is to either use a computer/calculator/whatever to simulate it or do something like rolling d% and rerolling results over 43.

Fair enough. I don't know anything about the distribution values of multiple vs. single die. I thought I took care of that with the minus two (subtracting the two additional '1' potentials)..but I've never been great with math... :smallconfused:

[Cog]

Any time you're simply adding dice together you'll tend to get a curved distribution out of it. For example, with your suggestion there's a bunch of ways to roll 20 but only one way to roll 43.

[Veyr]

Roll a d% as an actual percentage (i.e. 1% to 100%), and then multiply by 43 to get both the correct minimum/maximum and almost the correct distribution as long as you always round up. Every number maps to two different die rolls except those equal to 3n+1 (4, 7, 10, etc), which map to three. This means a 43 is 50% more likely than a 42 or 41, but just as likely as a 4. Were it not for crits, this would probably work.

[Divide by Zero]

You can get a visual example of the probabilities here (http://anydice.com/). Compare "output 2d20+d5-2" (I can't figure out how to get half dice on there) versus "output d43"

[myancey]

Any time you're simply adding dice together you'll tend to get a curved distribution out of it. For example, with your suggestion there's a bunch of ways to roll 20 but only one way to roll 43.

That's a really good point. I certainly did not see it that way. Thanks meng.

[Veyr]

Importantly, if you take perfectly random random numbers (i.e. a six-sided die gives each number 1-6 equal odds, at least in theory), and add together repeated tries (3d6, 28d6, 3,623d6, whatever), you get a distribution that approaches the Normal distribution, also known as the Bell curve. Just in case you were wondering why that funny-looking curve was such a big deal — as a result of this property, Normal distributions come up in nature a lot.

[Akal Saris]

Where are the Ramhammer and the Meteor Hammer located?

Glad to see the Valenar double scimitar already got mentioned, since it has its own specific prestige class that's pretty solid for TWF types.

[Jjeinn-tae]

Roll a d% as an actual percentage (i.e. 1% to 100%), and then multiply by 43 to get both the correct minimum/maximum and almost the correct distribution as long as you always round up. Every number maps to two different die rolls except those equal to 3n+1 (4, 7, 10, etc), which map to three. This means a 43 is 50% more likely than a 42 or 41, but just as likely as a 4. Were it not for crits, this would probably work.

You could also go for one of those weird really high numbered dice (there's a 10,000?) supposing you could possibly construct it, a 23,000 sided die would have equal distribution. All you would need to do is 43 mod 1d23000 and you'd have equal odds of all outcomes... Yeah, that would be convenient "I got a 12,537, what's that mean?" "24"

[nedz]

You could also go for one of those weird really high numbered dice (there's a 10,000?) supposing you could possibly construct it, a 23,000 sided die would have equal distribution. All you would need to do is 43 mod 1d23000 and you'd have equal odds of all outcomes... Yeah, that would be convenient "I got a 12,537, what's that mean?" "24"

What you have here, a d23,000, is a sphere.
Well technically only a good approximation to one.
I once tried rolling one of those d100s and it took a very long time to come to a result.

[Thurbane]

FWIW, I was joking about the d43. I think it's fairly obvious it's a typo, and was probably meant to be 1d4, just like the Vigilante isn't meant to have 33 3rd level spells at 10th level. :smalltongue:

[Greenish]

By RAW, you can TWF the DMG kusari-gamas (they're a light weapon with no provision against it). :smalleek:

If you've ever seen one, I beg you to explain to me exactly how one would go about this. :smallbiggrin:Well, you could see my avatar. I'm impressed how Derjuin managed to make it look cool instead of goofy.

The character (http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheetview.php?sheetid=292160) the avatar is based doesn't actually have them yet, but (since we get feats on odd levels) I'm going to pick a pair up as soon as we level up the next time. DM even allowed them to count as shadow hand weapons.

As for how it would work in practise, well, I guess about as well as lighting your swords on fire by twisting them just so. :smalltongue:

[Divide by Zero]

Well, you could see my avatar. I'm impressed how Derjuin managed to make it look cool instead of goofy.

At least he's holding them by the correct end, I guess.

[Koury]

DM even allowed them to count as shadow hand weapons.

Sounds like an awesome dude. :smalltongue:

[Benly]

Where are the Ramhammer and the Meteor Hammer located?

The Ramhammer is in the Planar Handbook. The Meteor Hammer is, I believe, in Pathfinder Armory with a 3.x version having previously appeared in Dragon.

[MR_Anderson]

Any time you're simply adding dice together you'll tend to get a curved distribution out of it. For example, with your suggestion there's a bunch of ways to roll 20 but only one way to roll 43.

In order to roll a d43 you can roll 6d8-5, it yields 1-43!

Yet, you also can roll a d43 by rolling 14d4-13, it also yields 1-43!!!

There is more than one way, and there are two simple ways with similar dice.

[RatElemental]

In order to roll a d43 you can roll 6d8-5, it yields 1-43!

Yet, you also can roll a d43 by rolling 14d4-13, it also yields 1-43!!!

There is more than one way, and there are two simple ways with similar dice.

But let's take a look at that first example.

To roll a 1 on 6d8-5 you have to roll 6 1s.

To roll a 20 you can get any of the following:

5 5 5 5 4 1
4 6 5 5 4 1
3 7 5 5 4 1
2 8 5 5 4 1
4 5 6 5 4 1
4 5 5 6 4 1
4 5 5 5 5 1
3 5 7 5 4 1
3 5 5 7 4 1
3 5 5 4 7 1
2 5 8 1 5 4
2 5 1 8 5 4
2 3 5 5 8 2
4 6 2 6 5 2
4 4 6 3 5 3
4 1 7 6 4 3

... it really just goes on and on and on, I can't even list them all here


This is not how a d43 would work. To roll a 1 on a d43 you just have to roll a 1. To roll a 20 on a d43 you can only get it by rolling a 20. To put it simply, there are 8 ways a d8 can land, and 8 ways for the next one to land, and so on, resulting in 262144 possible permutations. The number of permutations of a d43 is 43.

14d4-13 is even more inaccurate at 268435456 permutations.

[jdizzlean]

The Mod Life Crisis: Ed said “dead thread should head to bed".