Was the True Necromancer ever given an errata?

[Maho-Tsukai]

While I forget what sourcebook this was from, I had once seen a table for the Mystic Theurge which had shown to be like the True Necromancer in the fact that it had certain levels that only boosted 1 of your two casting classes. Now, in the SRD, the mystic theurge is shown to boost both spellcasting classes at all of it's levels. I am almost postive the book in which I saw the TN-esc MT was for 3.5e, not 3.0.(though I may be mistaken.) Thus, I am wondering if the MT was actually "fixed" in this manner did the True Necromancer ever get the same treatment?...and no, I do not mean it's 3.5e update, I mean a fix to make it boost both arcane and divine spells every level you take in it. (Which would allow 9ths in both class by level 20, making it not nearly as bad as it is if you go by the Libris Mortis table.) So, was something ever done like this or not?

[Divide by Zero]

No, True Necromancer just sucks that much.

[Maho-Tsukai]

Thats too bad. Either way I always houserule the class to boost both your spellcasting classes every level like the MT since it makes it actually more worthwhile.(Sure, no 9ths until 20 sucks, but the fact you have 9ths in both classes is a pretty darn good justification, though your still weaker then a strait cleric or strait wizard until level 20.) Not GREAT, but better then it is in Libris Mortis, at the least.

[Greenish]

While I forget what sourcebook this was from, I had once seen a table for the Mystic Theurge which had shown to be like the True Necromancer in the fact that it had certain levels that only boosted 1 of your two casting classes.Maybe you're thinking of Ultimate Magus?

[JaronK]

Mystic Theurge has always been full casting for both (and still ain't that great).

And the True Necromancer was errataed in Heroes of Horror, where the errata split it into "Archivist" and "Dread Necromancer" and changed it into a pair of base classes that didn't horribly suck.

JaronK

[danzibr]

Mystic Theurge has always been full casting for both (and still ain't that great).

And the True Necromancer was errataed in Heroes of Horror, where the errata split it into "Archivist" and "Dread Necromancer" and changed it into a pair of base classes that didn't horribly suck.

JaronK

Whoaaaaaaa I never thought of it that way.

[Grendus]

It's actually a shame, because if it advanced both, you could use the True Necromancer as a follow up in a Illumian MT build. By the time you finish Mystic Theurge, you would have finished the requirements for True Necromancer. Not really optimal, but with illumian cheese it's a fair trade off - you do go to bed with more spells left than most sorcerers wake up with, and they're of decent power too.

[Kobold-Bard]

It's actually a shame, because if it advanced both, you could use the True Necromancer as a follow up in a Illumian MT build. By the time you finish Mystic Theurge, you would have finished the requirements for True Necromancer. Not really optimal, but with illumian cheese it's a fair trade off - you do go to bed with more spells left than most sorcerers wake up with, and they're of decent power too.

Subtle poke towards my awesome Mystic Theurge (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=166217)....

[Infernalbargain]

With fast entry you can do wiz 3 / cleric 1 / mt 2 / tn 14. Reaches level 9 on the wiz end and level 8 on cleric end.

[dextercorvia]

With fast entry you can do wiz 3 / cleric 1 / mt 2 / tn 14. Reaches level 9 on the wiz end and level 8 on cleric end.

If you are using early entry anyway, you can replace one of those Wizard levels with the last level of TN. You still don't get 9's on the cleric side, but you do get another 8th and 7th.

[Infernalbargain]

If you are using early entry anyway, you can replace one of those Wizard levels with the last level of TN. You still don't get 9's on the cleric side, but you do get another 8th and 7th.

It'd have to be another MT level and requires fewer shenanigans. So you get more feats for things such as doing stuff.

[dextercorvia]

It'd have to be another MT level and requires fewer shenanigans. So you get more feats for things such as doing stuff.

You can meet all of the TN prereq's with Wiz2/Cleric1/MT2. You were blowing at least one feat on early entry. My favorite is Versatile Spellcaster. That will actually help both sides. Sanctum would also work for both. Unless you were using Southern Magician, or Alt. Source spell, anything that gets 2nd level Cleric spells is going to work to get 2nd level Wizard spells.

[Divide by Zero]

You can meet all of the TN prereq's with Wiz2/Cleric1/MT2.

But you have to get into MT first, and that requires a lot fewer shenanigans with Wiz 3.

[dextercorvia]

But you have to get into MT first, and that requires a lot fewer shenanigans with Wiz 3.

It is going to require 1 feat either way.

[Maho-Tsukai]

Yeah, and I'd rather not play a werid bald guy with sigials floating around his head, thank you. Also, Sanctum Spell is iffy as not everybody interperates it the same way and there's the whole issue of you losing your spell if you leave your sanctum, too. I've never heard of the verastile spellcaster method, though, so if you don't have to be an Illumian to use it, please, explain.

Though I still wonder if wizard 3/cleric 1/MT 2/True Necro 14 is actually worth it for what it dose. You get 9ths in wizard, yes, but not until level 20. Now if you got 9ths in both sides by lv. 20, it would be worth it, but 9ths in just one side? Not sure if it's really worth it, in that case. The UPSIDES are there, though. You get a good rebuke, 8ths in cleric, 9ths in wizard and overall your a better NECROMANCER then a strait wizard will ever be.(though the strait wizard is better then you in many other areas.) However, I am not sure if it is worth it despite....this makes me want to playtest this, for some odd reason. If Zaq playtested the truenamer and actually proved it was playable, perhaps somebody should give the TN the same treatment?

[dextercorvia]

Versatile Spellcaster requires you to be able to spontaneously cast spells (which a cleric can). It then allows you to use two spell slots of the same level to cast a spell you know of the next higher level. Clerics know all of their spells already, and Wizards learn spells of any level they can cast beginning at Wizard2. So you a CloisteredCleric1/Wizard2 can cast 2nd level arcane and divine spells, and easily qualifies for MT, which you only need two levels of to get up to the skill requirements of TN.

I honestly don't know if it is worth it or not. I think, likely it isn't, compared to straight Cleric or Wizard. That is a lot of casting delays.

[Grendus]

At the same time, it has staying power. Serious staying power. Like group-of-warforged-martial-adepts staying power. It has less world-shattering spells, true, no cleric 9ths until epic and no wizard 9ths until 20, but it has some versatility that wizard doesn't get, and with early entry shenanigans it's not as horribly far behind as the expected Wizard 3/Cleric 3 entry is.

It's a power loss from straight wizard, but then, anything that loses caster levels is. You get 71 spells per day, all totaled before bonus spells, though only one is 9th level (up to 4 if you're a focused specialist). If you can find a way to weasel in archivist or int based divine spellcaster (or heck, wisdom based arcane spellcaster) instead of cleric it would help, but it's not entirely necessary, you'd need high stats to pull this off anyways. Most of those spells are lower level, but those can form the baseline of your utility. 11 of them are 7th level or higher.

This is a build that could wreak some serious havoc. With two practiced spellcaster feats, you would be casting as a level 20 wizard or level 20 cleric. DMM cleric spells would make you tougher than nails, and arcane spells would let you obliterate entire cities with ease. It would still be T1, and a fairly powerful T1 at that.

[Claudius Maximus]

I've had that build set up for 20th level villains before. The late payoff isn't a problem at all from that perspective, but on the other hand they gain a whole lot of options, which is good for a villain.

Dual-progression types always struck me as good for NPCs and bosses, since you can just give them extra levels to keep things where you want them.

[Maho-Tsukai]

Now that you phrase it that way I see the power that this class may have. As for doing away with mad, Academic Priest can help. There is no way workable for this build to make arcane casting wisdom based without 3rd party/homebrew and archivist dose not get domains which means your going to have to get the death domain through a PrC, and that's NOT helpful to early-entry. Academic priest, however, allows you to set your cleric spellcasting to intelligence instead of wisdom for everything except spell DCs, which remain wisdom based. This means that you can get buy with a lower wisdom and not care since the cleric list has plenty of good spells that do not use saving-throws and you'll still have great DCs on your wizard side.

With 3rd party, lost traditions can allow you to switch your casting stat for one spellcasting class to whatever mental ability score you want. I would, personally, make cleric int-based using it since more skill points are more useful to me then buffing will saves(which are already good for you anyway.) However, for somebody who prefers a high-wisdom, meh int character for RP you can go the wisdom route this way, too.

This idea sounds so awesome that I MAY just have to play a True Necromancer and do the class some justice just as Zaq did the truenamer some justice....Too bad I am not that great at optimization(I'm not horrid, but not a true OPer either and usually have to ask for/research tricks when I play in a super-high OP game.) because if I was I'd totally play a TN a bunch of times and write the first True Necromancer handbook. Yes, crazy, I know, but proving "bad" classes can be "good" is rewarding if it can actually be achieved.

[Grendus]

Heh, who would have thought the TN could be the answer to the MT's lack of late game progression. Treasure from trash...

Edit: So I worked it out. Setup is Illumian Cloistered Cleric 1/Wizard 2/Mystic Theurge 3/True Necromancer 14. Focused specialist in conjuration or necromancy (the TN boost would make you a potent debuffer, even with the delayed spell levels), banning enchantment, evocation, and abjuration; illusion fills the will save niche of enchantment, conjuration can fill both the blast and control niches of evocation, and most good abjuration spells are mimicked on the cleric side. You must have Krau in your sigil, I'd personally take Naenkrau (+1 to save DC's will be a huge boon with your delayed spell progression and lower mental stats, just leave an orison and first level spell slot empty). You end up with 17th level wizard spellcasting and 16th level cleric, not too shabby, certainly stronger than any other MT build outside of Ur-Theurge. Assuming 28 point buy:

Str: 8
Dex: 12
Con: 14
Int: 16
Wis: 16
Cha: 8

If you get a higher point buy the distribution is up to you - higher charisma would let you power a little DMM cheese, or you could increase your con or a casting stat. The only feat required in this build is Improved Sigil (Krau), everything else is up in the wind. Practiced Spellcaster isn't quite as important since Krau sigil gives you +2 caster level in both classes, so you're only 1 wizard level and two cleric levels behind the curve. Beyond that, there aren't too many restrictions.

There are a few variations. Going Wizard 2/Cleric 1/MT 3/TN 14 and taking Collegiate Wizard as your first wizard feat could be useful, seeing as you'll be cash strapped trying to keep two mental stats high instead of one. You could swap wizard and cleric dominance and go Cleric 2/Wizard 1/MT 3/TN 14, though I wouldn't - this build doesn't lend itself to divine gishing, and cleric offensive spells pale in comparison to wizard.

[Maho-Tsukai]

Is there any way to do it without Illumian? I HATE the fluff of that race and due to that try to avoid it if at all possible, so would something like the versatile spellcaster thing mentioned above also work our or not?

[Infernalbargain]

Is there any way to do it without Illumian? I HATE the fluff of that race and due to that try to avoid it if at all possible, so would something like the versatile spellcaster thing mentioned above also work our or not?

If you want less fudgery, precious apprentice in cleric 1 / wiz 3 / MT 2 / TN 14 build that works with any race.

[Grendus]

No way to do it without losing 9th level spells, I'm afraid, unless you use sanctum spell cheese instead, and I don't really understand that so someone else will have to work it out.

[Infernalbargain]

No way to do it without losing 9th level spells, I'm afraid, unless you use sanctum spell cheese instead, and I don't really understand that so someone else will have to work it out.

My build maintains wiz 9th spells. 2 levels lost in TN and 1 lost from cleric. Your build simply gives one more level of cleric casting which only puts it at 17/16 instead of my 17/15.

[dextercorvia]

But Precocious Apprentice is a Crappy Feat(TM) after about ECL 7 or so and only mediocre before that. Versatile Spellcaster is an awesome (some would say too good) feat from 1-20. It always means more of your highest level spells at the cost of your prodigious lowest level slots. It also means you are Shrodinger's Big Frigging caster, and never have to ask the question, "Did I prepare 5 Time Stops today, or 6..."

[Grendus]

Gotta admit, kinda cheesy though. Versatile Spellcaster was intended for sorcerers, with vague enough wording for other spontaneous classes. They never intended for us to consider Clerics a spontaneous class and combine it for dual progression classes to apply it to wizards. It is RAW, but you'll need to get a good helmet to protect yourself from DMG wounds to the head.

Then again, using Improved Krau Sigil to cast spells at a level higher than your current one is kinda cheesy too. Does end you with higher caster levels (19 and 18, respectively) without burning feats on Practiced Spellcaster, though you lose the option of taking a race to bump up a mental stat.

[Veyr]

Gotta admit, kinda cheesy though. Versatile Spellcaster was intended for sorcerers, with vague enough wording for other spontaneous classes. They never intended for us to consider Clerics a spontaneous class
Care to prove those statements? How on earth do you know what they "intended"?


Then again, using Improved Krau Sigil to cast spells at a level higher than your current one is kinda cheesy too.
How do you figure? That's exactly what it's supposed to do. :smallconfused:

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Well, with Western Magician (or whatever that regional feat is that lets your spells count as arcane or divine), and Arcane Disciple, you can get into True Necromancer from straight Dread Necromancer. That way, you don't really loose any spell levels. Granted, you probably don't want to go too far into it, enough for the permanent desecrate ought to do ya, but it's a solid option if you are already undead, or some other type which the capstone won't apply to.

[Ashiel]

Pardon me but, what book is Versatile Spellcaster from?

[Coidzor]

Pardon me but, what book is Versatile Spellcaster from?

Google's telling me Races of Dragon but I can't recall offhand or check the book myself, sorry. Sounds about right though.

[Ashiel]

Google's telling me Races of Dragon but I can't recall offhand or check the book myself, sorry. Sounds about right though.

Thank you very much. ^-^

[Grendus]

Care to prove those statements? How on earth do you know what they "intended"?

Going out on a limb here, RotD mostly held goodies for sorcerers. Not clerics. Since sorcerers can't learn spells for a spell level they don't have access to, Versatile Spellcaster wouldn't need a "maximum spell level" clause. Same deal goes for the spontaneous spellcasters with a known list, they explicitly don't learn those spells until they have spell slots of that level. Clerics are a powerful exception, they have access to all spells by default and are limited by the spell slots they can fill. And since clerics aren't commonly thought of as "spontaneous casters" (though they do meet the requirement), I doubt they considered people using cleric to qualify.

But you're right, I don't have an actual quote. I just suspect that, seeing as WotC considered rogues taking levels of fighter to have access to Weapon Specialization overpowered, they probably didn't mean for us to use it to cheese into dual progression casting PrC's.


How do you figure? That's exactly what it's supposed to do. :smallconfused:

I think what it was intended to do was increase the saving throw of the ability, just like what Heighten Spell was intended to do. That was a typo, what I meant was that they didn't intend for players to use it to meet "must cast spells of x level" requirements two levels early. But then, entry requirements were made to be broken, only skill requirements are safe (unless you allow bloodlines, then it's no holds barred).


In other news, I figured out how to get Archivist into the build, albeit by dropping wizard. A Dread Necromancer 1/Archivist 2/Mystic Theurge 3/True Necromancer 14 with Arcane Disciple (Death Domain) could meet the qualifications. Of course, it's probably a weaker build, Wizard/Cleric is fairly obviously stronger than Dread Necromancer/Archivist.

Still trying to find a way to get both spellcasting classes keyed off the same stat without giving up 9's. Dread Necro 3/Favored Soul 1/Mystic Theurge 10/True Necromancer 6 would have 18th level Dread Necromancer casting, but would give up 8th and 9th level Favored Soul spells. You would have to either be illumian or take Spontaneous Healer and Versatile Spellcaster though. Less feat heavy at the front, you only need two to enter Mystic Theurge, then you have 10 levels to slot in Spell Focus (Necromancy) and Arcane Disciple (Death Domain) for True Necromancer, so you could get away with using any race.

Ur-Theurge is still the way to go for dual 9's though.

[Veyr]

I don't disagree about the probable intent of Versatile Spellcaster — I just get annoyed when people declare that they know what the intent was. No one, except the designers, knows that.

As for the Illumian thing, they could have easily just said "+1 DC" if they wanted. They didn't.

[dextercorvia]

In other news, I figured out how to get Archivist into the build, albeit by dropping wizard. A Dread Necromancer 1/Archivist 2/Mystic Theurge 3/True Necromancer 14 with Arcane Disciple (Death Domain) could meet the qualifications. Of course, it's probably a weaker build, Wizard/Cleric is fairly obviously stronger than Dread Necromancer/Archivist.

Wait... You think VS on a cleric and Krau for early entry are cheesy, but taking Arcane Disciple to get around a Domain prereq. (Illegal, btw) is fine?

[Grendus]

Wait... You think VS on a cleric and Krau for early entry are cheesy, but taking Arcane Disciple to get around a Domain prereq. (Illegal, btw) is fine?

It's all cheesy. We're trying to make a dual progression build here... balance be damned. We're talking about a build that, by RAW, gets 70 spells per day before stat bonuses (with the intended wizard/cleric build and using questionable but RAW legal early entry). We're just slightly short of Ur-Theurge on the cheese-o-meter.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Wait... You think VS on a cleric and Krau for early entry are cheesy, but taking Arcane Disciple to get around a Domain prereq. (Illegal, btw) is fine?

Gaining access to a domain is gaining access to a domain, regardless of how you go about getting it.

[Maho-Tsukai]

True, but Arcane Disciple dose not actually give you a domain. It gives you the domain's SPELLS, but not the domain power and not the actual domain, just it's spells. Thus, Arcane Disciple dose NOT fill the domain requirement for TN. The reason it works for Walker in the Wastes is because that class dose not say you need the domain itself but rather the spells. TN specifically states you need access to the death domain, and since arcane disciple gives you spells and not the domain itself you don't actually have the domain or access to it. Therefore, Arcane Disciple cannot be used as a way to enter TN.

[FMArthur]

Would a Wizard with the Domain Granted Power ACF from Complete Champion, as well as Arcane Disciple, count as access to a domain, because they'd grant all of its features? Or is that just de facto access and still not technical access?

[ShneekeyTheLost]

True, but Arcane Disciple dose not actually give you a domain. It gives you the domain's SPELLS, but not the domain power and not the actual domain, just it's spells. Thus, Arcane Disciple dose NOT fill the domain requirement for TN. The reason it works for Walker in the Wastes is because that class dose not say you need the domain itself but rather the spells. TN specifically states you need access to the death domain, and since arcane disciple gives you spells and not the domain itself you don't actually have the domain or access to it. Therefore, Arcane Disciple cannot be used as a way to enter TN.

Read Complete Divine again, with respect to 'what qualifies as access to a domain'. You'll find it's easier than you think. It's why Paladin can get into Warpriest so easily.

[dextercorvia]

Read Complete Divine again, with respect to 'what qualifies as access to a domain'. You'll find it's easier than you think. It's why Paladin can get into Warpriest so easily.

Can you point me to a page number. I can't find that section.

[Mystify]

You are missing the true potential of true necromancer. I ran a caimpaign once, where I specifically told my players to cheese out their builds, since I would be throwing them at extremely high monsters. Naturally, this lead to a party of spellcasters, including using geometer( I may have the name wrong, but its similar to that) to blend cleric and arcane spells, and hence use divine metamagic on their arcane casting, and someone with a initiate of the seven viels. Yet the most powerful character for the entirety of the pre-epic campaign was the true necromancer. Their ability to create hoards of high-level undead should not be underestimated, esp. when they are buffed with other abilities from libris mortis. Admittedly it was a nightmare to manage all of them, but the monster's they were fighting ended up being added to the army. And it wasn't even being cranked up as much as it could, and further delving into rules. The only reason it collapsed at high levels is the HD cap on skeletons.

[Grendus]

You are missing the true potential of true necromancer. I ran a caimpaign once, where I specifically told my players to cheese out their builds, since I would be throwing them at extremely high monsters. Naturally, this lead to a party of spellcasters, including using geometer( I may have the name wrong, but its similar to that) to blend cleric and arcane spells, and hence use divine metamagic on their arcane casting, and someone with a initiate of the seven viels. Yet the most powerful character for the entirety of the pre-epic campaign was the true necromancer. Their ability to create hoards of high-level undead should not be underestimated, esp. when they are buffed with other abilities from libris mortis. Admittedly it was a nightmare to manage all of them, but the monster's they were fighting ended up being added to the army. And it wasn't even being cranked up as much as it could, and further delving into rules. The only reason it collapsed at high levels is the HD cap on skeletons.

From an undead perspective, Dread Necromancer, a T3 class, would have been stronger. Just FYI (it has a higher cap for controllable undead, and even with the 1 caster level delay would still be one spell level ahead of the TN). Or did you waive the spell component cost for the daily use?

Of course, for TN cheese you can go with a standard Cleric 2/Wizard 1/MT 3/TN 14. True Necromancer's biggest problem is that all it's class features short of necromancy CL boost are just extra spells he can already cast as divine spells (or arcane spells, for that matter). You now have the rebuking ability of a 19th level cleric combined with 17th level cleric and 16th level wizard casting. Again, not quite Ur-Theurge, but some serious spellcasting badassery.

[Mystify]

You are overlooking that you can control undead with your arcane caster levels and your divine caster levels, even before you start counting ones you have rebuked or cast control on.

Edit:Actually, upon looking at dread necromancer, your best bet in that regard is probably using dread necromancer for half of the true necromancer.

[Grendus]

You are overlooking that you can control undead with your arcane caster levels and your divine caster levels, even before you start counting ones you have rebuked or cast control on.

Edit:Actually, upon looking at dread necromancer, your best bet in that regard is probably using dread necromancer for half of the true necromancer.

It's never been officially cleared up, but most DM's will say that your wizard and cleric caster levels don't stack for controllable undead, you get to use the higher one. Though if we could get confirmation on whether Arcane Disciple qualifies by RAW, the DN 3/FS 1/MT 10/TN 6 build would grant an obscene amount of controllable undead, on the order of 18*4+18*charisma mod animated undead. Downside is, your rebuking level would be 9... not useful at all.

[Coidzor]

That's kind of interesting. Is that a point about True Necromancers in particular or any kind of Theurge?

[Mystify]

so if you have a wizard level 19(practiced spellcaster) and a cleric level 5, and used raise dead with your level 5 cleric level, it counts as a level 19 wizard?

I also ruled that they stacked because otherwise the premise of the true necromancer didn't make sense. Why combine arcane and divine spellcasting to raise dead if you don't get any benefit from doing both? If you don't let them stack, true necromancer completely fails at being a prestige class since it is worse at what it does than a normal caster. If you let them do both, their weakness on an individual side adds up to a considerable boost. It just so happens that you can combine things from other books to explode those assumptions.

I think of it this way: the yare using some of their arcane power to animate that group of undead, and they have their divine power controlling that group.
The more questionable part to me was whether undead you create yourself and undead you rebuked count against the same limit.


That's kind of interesting. Is that a point about True Necromancers in particular or any kind of Theurge?
Any theurge would allow it if you are ruling it that way, but dread necromancer gives you considerable bonuses to it on top of its theurgness. They have a caster level bump that outpaces their lost spellcasting levels in the progression, and practiced spellcaster can plug the other holes. Additionally, their desecration aura is buffing the entire hoard, and making it automatic to give them bonuses on creation.

[Coidzor]

I also ruled that they stacked because otherwise the premise of the true necromancer didn't make sense. Why combine arcane and divine spellcasting to raise dead if you don't get any benefit from doing both? If you don't let them stack, true necromancer completely fails at being a prestige class since it is worse at what it does than a normal caster. If you let them do both, their weakness on an individual side adds up to a considerable boost. It just so happens that you can combine things from other books to explode those assumptions.

Well, that's part of the reason True Necromancer is regarded as very bad by Frank and K (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19872726/Revised_Necromancer_Handbook). They probably would've had a different opinion if you could really control all that more undead. They still wouldn't have liked it due to weakening the character more than Mystic Theurge dual nines shenanigan builds which would get the same thing if True Necromancers didn't have some ability that gave this to them.

The more questionable part to me was whether undead you create yourself and undead you rebuked count against the same limit.[/QUOTE]

Animate Dead and Rebuke Undead are separate control pools. Undead controlled via the spells Command Undead or Control Undead are similarly not counted against either HD limit. At least without something in the rules altering this setup somehow.

Hoards are that upon which dragons sleep
Hordes are those that sack the duke's keep

[Mystify]

If the two classes don't stack then I agree, true necromancer sucks.

[Divide by Zero]

I don't remember exactly how I did it (mostly lots of Cha minmaxing, I think), but I once made a theoretical Dread Necromancer that could control over 1000 HD of undead through animate dead alone. Not to mention actually being a competent spellcaster on his own unlike TN.

Oh, and the fact that TN actually has a worse Rebuke check until level 15 or so.

[dextercorvia]

I asked about the domain thing in the Q&A thread. This is the answer I got:


Q 133

There was some discussion in another thread. What satisfies the requirement for a PrC "Special: Access to the Death domain"?


A 133

The Deity, Domains, and Domain Spells section in the Cleric class description provides this information.
Even if you don't choose to prepare the spells for a particular domain, you've still got access to them.

In short, "access to the Death domain" means you've both got its granted power and can cast the spells from that domain (within your spellcasting limits) if you choose to. Clerics qualify by simply selecting the domain. The Sorcerer Domain Access ACF also qualifies if they select Death. Other classes may qualify in a piecemeal fashion. The Wizard Domain Granted Power ACF, or Planar Touchstone feat with the appropriate planar touchstone from The Catalogues of Enlightenment would handle the granted power part. The Arcane Disciple feat would satisfy the domain spell part. Put together solutions for both parts (specifying Death in each case) and you'll meet this domain access requirement.

It makes sense. Arcane Disciple won't do it on it's own, but you can work it out with a Wizard/Archivist if you are willing to spend the feat on Planar Touchstone.

[Infernalbargain]

18*4+18*charisma mod animated undead.

DN needs to get to 8 for the CHA mod to controlling undead.

[Mystify]

DN needs to get to 8 for the CHA mod to controlling undead.

Undead Mastery: All undead creatures created by a dread
necromancer who has reached 8th level or higher gain a
+4 enhancement bonus to Strength and Dexterity and 2
additional hit points per Hit Die.
In addition, when a dread necromancer uses the animate
dead spell to create undead, she can control 4 + her Charisma
bonus HD worth of undead creatures per class level (rather
than the 4 HD per level normally granted by the spell).
Similarly, when a dread necromancer casts the control undead
spell, the spell targets up to (2 + her Cha bonus) HD/level
of undead creatures, rather than the 2 HD/level normally
granted by the spell.

The level 8 clearly applies to bonuses to the raised undead, but the rest is kinda ambigous. Its either ((level 8, get these bonuses) and also control more), or (at level 8 get (more and better undead)). English is such a wonderful langauge.

But you are probably right. If you are going for an undead swarm you probably want the 8 levels of DN anyways for the stat bumps, 3 level of cleric, then take the next 9 levels of TN. Thats enough for necromantic prowess +3, take practiced spellcaster and you have a DN 22 CL for all necromancy spells, and 17 CL on the cleric side as well. Granted your max spell level sucks, but you have all of the DN's undead minion buffs, as well as most of TN's minion buffing abilities(you are basically lacking the last +1 CL). You have a 90ft desecration aura to buff your undead, all undead you raise within it get bonuses on cretion, the dread necromancer gives its buffs, Corpsecrafter(assuming the extra hp, being untyped, stacks with the DN bonus ) buffs them further, deadly chill give them an extra d6 cold damage on every attack(with that many minions, they add up fast) , necromantic might gives them more accuracy, their turn resistance is through the roof between necromantic prescenece, the desecration, bolster resitance, and any other bonuses you feel like turning on. Now all you need is your bard party member to take requiem and give them a +5 moral bonus on attack and damage, plus a level in marshal to use a minor aura to add the bards charisma to their attacks and damage when flanking(and with this many minions, flanking is not an issue). Use the rod that doubles your undead controled limit in a casters glove to get its effect continuously, add in the deathbound domain to turn your base mutliplier on undead limit form 2xlevel to 3x level. You could use the DN's advanced learning to learn udnead leitentant and get another 22 HD, or , since that is likely irrelevant by this point, undead torch, and give your favorite 22 undead +2d6 on each attack against living targets for the next 2+ minutes. if all of them get 1 attack, then that is 44d6 extra damage from a 3rd level spell. And they get to full round with multiple attacks, repeatedly, for the next few minutes. And that is not even getting fully warmed up. Add in some necromancy-specific caster level boosts, an ioun stone to boost CL, and your army grows even more. Even just as 20HD skeletons these are potent, and you can have nastier things than skeletons in the mix.

The main drawbacks with this stragedy are 1) being very hard to manage, esp. if your army is of diverse types of undead, which is likely 2)its hard to get an army of undead to attack a single target. However, your army would be awesome against a real army. 3)dread necromancer doesn't get access to a lot of the undead buffing spells. Cleric helps with that to some degree.

You can use negative enrgy spells to heal the undead, and they have tons of collective hit points. Even if they do die, they are easily replaceable.

[Divide by Zero]

The level 8 clearly applies to bonuses to the raised undead, but the rest is kinda ambigous. Its either ((level 8, get these bonuses) and also control more), or (at level 8 get (more and better undead)). English is such a wonderful langauge.

The ability is acquired at level 8, so it obviously wouldn't be applicable before that.

Also important to note is that it specifically refers to class levels, so levels in prestige classes would not gain the bonus.

[Mystify]

Ah, you are right about the class levels. I misread that.

So true necromancer even fails at improving your undead army, beyond having the decetration aura. A good necromancer would be able to cast desecration before animating their dead. The dececration aura is nice, but there are other ways to buff your army.

Ok, I give up. True necromancer sucks.

[ubergeek63]

The ability is acquired at level 8, so it obviously wouldn't be applicable before that.

Also important to note is that it specifically refers to class levels, so levels in prestige classes would not gain the bonus.

dread necromancer with the fell feats and an extra spell feat or two to get AoE damage spells with a ring of wizardry - send in the minions and start casting fell drain cold spells...

imagine facing a few skeletal dragons (22d12+22 per the draconomicon) for instance while their master is blasting you all with metamagicked fireballs (energy substitution-cold, fell drain) at you!

or worse yet a frozen fog with fell drain! you cant move for rounds and every round you are losing levels while your opponent gains levels!

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Ah, you are right about the class levels. I misread that.

So true necromancer even fails at improving your undead army, beyond having the decetration aura. A good necromancer would be able to cast desecration before animating their dead. The dececration aura is nice, but there are other ways to buff your army.

Ok, I give up. True necromancer sucks.

Dread Necromancer's spell list does not include (for whatever reason) Desecrate. So a 4 level dip, assuming it can solo-qualify, would be beneficial.

Assuming you don't just buy the ring, of course...

[Mystify]

That is what their advanced learning is for, cherrypicking spells. Though if you can buy a ring, the spell could be learned elsewhere. And a 4 level dip requires a 3 level detour through cleric, hardly worthwhile.

[Aspenor]

"Effective Spell Level X" is not the same as being able to cast spells of level X. Thus, things like Sanctum Spell do not actually let you enter early.

Sorry, no cheddar for joo.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

That is what their advanced learning is for, cherrypicking spells. Though if you can buy a ring, the spell could be learned elsewhere. And a 4 level dip requires a 3 level detour through cleric, hardly worthwhile.

Advanced Learning is only for Necromancy spells, and (also for some unknown reason) Desecrate is Evocation.

[Mystify]

Huh. So it is. That's surprising. So yeah, a ring then. Any way you cut it, the dip into true necromancer is not worthwhile if it doesn't advance your undead control. That, or you could have a cleric cast it for you. An evil cleric party member would synergise well with an undead army anyways.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Huh. So it is. That's surprising. So yeah, a ring then. Any way you cut it, the dip into true necromancer is not worthwhile if it doesn't advance your undead control. That, or you could have a cleric cast it for you. An evil cleric party member would synergise well with an undead army anyways.

Use Magic Device for a Wand of Desecrate also works well. There's a ring which has it as a permanent effect, but it is significantly more expensive.

True Necromancer still advances control cap, but you don't add your Charisma bonus to those levels. So it still does so, but not as much.

[Grendus]

"Effective Spell Level X" is not the same as being able to cast spells of level X. Thus, things like Sanctum Spell do not actually let you enter early.

Sorry, no cheddar for joo.

If it were truly that simple, we wouldn't still be arguing about it to this day. I agree that it's cheesy, but going strictly by RAW they never said "Effective Spell Level =/= Casting X Level Spells". In fact, since you can use effective caster level to qualify for feats and PrC's, their stance seems to be the exact opposite. The closest thing to a valid argument that I've seen is that it requires casting spells of x level, and thus having one second level spell of each class doesn't count. You can get around that with an Illumian with a single flaw (Precocious Apprentice and Improved Sigil(Krau) at 1st, Versatile Spellcaster at 3rd, you can now cast two 2nd level spells on each side). You miiiight have to take a third level of wizard, depending on whether your DM rules that gaining first level cleric spells qualifies you to repick your auto-heightened spells or not, in which case skip Precocious Apprentice and take Collegiate Wizard.

Looks like we're stuck with Arcane/Cleric entry though, Wizard and Sorcerer domains don't come until level 5, which is entirely too late to start dual progression classes, short of Ur-Theurge.

[Mystify]

From the official FAQ:

Does a 1st-level wizard/4th-level rogue with Practiced
Spellcaster qualify for a prestige class that requires
“Spellcaster level 5th”?
No. This prestige class requirement doesn’t refer to your
caster level (a value which can be modified by many feats,
class features, and even temporary effects) but to your actual
level in a spellcasting class. (If it helps, you can think of this
requirement as “Spellcaster, 5th level.”)
The same applies for characters whose caster level is less
than their class level. A 5th-level paladin meets the “Spellcaster
level 5th) requirement, even though her actual caster level is
only 2nd.

[Divide by Zero]

FAQ is not RAW, and that's not talking about spell levels anyway.

[Mystify]

He mentioned qualifying for PrCs with effective caster level, and the FAQ, which clarifies ambiguous parts of the rules, points out that spellcaster level and caster level are not the same thing. If the rulings in the FAQ carry no weight, then why did WoTC release it? RAW, spellcaster level is not defined, so saying it is the same as caster level is interpretation.

[Divide by Zero]

He mentioned qualifying for PrCs with effective caster level, and the FAQ, which clarifies ambiguous parts of the rules, points out that spellcaster level and caster level are not the same thing. If the rulings in the FAQ carry no weight, then why did WoTC release it? RAW, spellcaster level is not defined, so saying it is the same as caster level is interpretation.

It's *supposed* to clarify rules that might be difficult to understand. The writers took more than a few liberties there.

And the issue here is being able to cast nth level spells, which is an entirely different matter from spellcaster levels.

[Mystify]

In fact, since you can use effective caster level to qualify for feats and PrC's, their stance seems to be the exact opposite.
I was addressing this point.

[Coidzor]

Some PrCs do require "Caster level X" which practiced spellcaster would allow. And would let warlocks enter it as well (but they usually still can't due to skill or feat or spells known prereqs)

[Veyr]

"Effective Spell Level X" is not the same as being able to cast spells of level X. Thus, things like Sanctum Spell do not actually let you enter early.

Sorry, no cheddar for joo.
Are you stating a houserule, or RAW? Because I've certainly never heard that, and I'd like to see the rules quote that says that.

If it's a houserule, you should indicate it as such.

[Aspenor]

If it were truly that simple, we wouldn't still be arguing about it to this day. I agree that it's cheesy, but going strictly by RAW they never said "Effective Spell Level =/= Casting X Level Spells". In fact, since you can use effective caster level to qualify for feats and PrC's, their stance seems to be the exact opposite. The closest thing to a valid argument that I've seen is that it requires casting spells of x level, and thus having one second level spell of each class doesn't count. You can get around that with an Illumian with a single flaw (Precocious Apprentice and Improved Sigil(Krau) at 1st, Versatile Spellcaster at 3rd, you can now cast two 2nd level spells on each side). You miiiight have to take a third level of wizard, depending on whether your DM rules that gaining first level cleric spells qualifies you to repick your auto-heightened spells or not, in which case skip Precocious Apprentice and take Collegiate Wizard.

Looks like we're stuck with Arcane/Cleric entry though, Wizard and Sorcerer domains don't come until level 5, which is entirely too late to start dual progression classes, short of Ur-Theurge.


Are you stating a houserule, or RAW? Because I've certainly never heard that, and I'd like to see the rules quote that says that.

If it's a houserule, you should indicate it as such.

No, it's not a house rule. It is a common misinterpretation of the rules that stems from reading one sentence and then completely ignoring another. Feats such as Sanctum Spell and Heighten Spell in fact define "effective spell level as such:

Unlike other metamagic feats, Heighten Spell actually increases the effective level of the spell that it modifies. All effects dependent on spell level (such as saving throw DCs and ability to penetrate a lesser globe of invulnerability) are calculated according to the heightened level.
"Effective spell level" means that all effects dependent on spell level are used as if the spell was either the new level, or 1 level higher than usual in the case of Sanctum Spell. Qualifying for prestige classes is not an "effect." This is a simple exercise in the English language, where the sentence following another gives the first context and meaning.

Heighten Spell contains other text that allows for early entries, such as stating that:

A heightened spell has a higher spell level than normal (up to a maximum of 9th level).
and also contains the blurb about a heightened spell being treated in all ways as a higher spell level.

For this reason, tricks like Heighten + Earth Spell work for early entry. Sanctum Spell does not.

[Cieyrin]

Advanced Learning is only for Necromancy spells, and (also for some unknown reason) Desecrate is Evocation.

That's what Blackwater Taint (Stormwrack, p. 113) is for. Desecrate for wizards, no strings attached except you have to baptize your undead in a tainted font, which is kinda neat in its own way.