Easy Way To Make ToB Chars?

[Dralnu]

I can make and double check a Fighter 10 character sheet in about 30minutes. But with ToB, since I constantly have to check the IL chart and there's all those levels that allow maneuver retraining, I literally have to spend 2+ hours making a Warblade 10, starting at level 1 and working my way up level by level.

Is there an easier way?

[Hirax]

Google Warblade handbook, it has a truncated list of maneuvers for you to consider. Much easier than scrolling through tome of battle.

[Mayhem]

Warblades get the next level of manuevers at every odd level, and from 3rd level and beyond they only get 1 new manuever known every 2 levels.
So start at level 3, pick 4 lvl1 manuevers and 1 level 2. At 5th, pick one new one and retrain an old one. At 8th level pick one new and retrain one old. Rinse repeat :smallwink:.

[Keld Denar]

I make a table. Take a piece of paper, draw 5 verticle lines, and 20 horizontal ones. Should look like this:

{table]ECL|Class|IL|Gain|Lose|Stance
1|Warblade1|1|Steel Wind, Saph Nightmare Blade, Stone Bones||Punishing Stance
2|Fighter1|1.5|||
3|Fighter2|2|||
4|Warblade2|3|Mountain Hammer||
[/table]

If you have two initiator classes, you can just divide IL into two columns
{table]ECL|Class|WB IL|Cru IL|Gain|Lose|Stance
1|Warblade1|1|.5|Steel Wind, Saph Nightmare Blade, Stone Bones||Punishing Stance
2|Crusader1|1.5|1.5|W||X
3|Crusader2|2|2.5|Y||Z
4|Warblade2|3|3|Mountain Hammer||
[/table]

etc

[Boci]

Something to help you remember:

Warblades and crusaders can have a maximum of 2 maneuvres per level. Thus a 15th level warblade knows one 8th level maneuvres and two from each level 3 through 7.
Swordsages know 3 per level.

I don't understand how it can be so much more time consumimg to build a warblade. Sure maneuvres are more complex than feats, but you also had to make sure you qualified for each feat at the right level for fighters. Could increased familiarity as well?

[Morph Bark]

Something to help you remember:

Warblades and crusaders can have a maximum of 2 maneuvres per level. Thus a 15th level warblade knows one 8th level maneuvres and two from each level 3 through 7.
Swordsages know 3 per level.

I don't understand how it can be so much more time consumimg to build a warblade. Sure maneuvres are more complex than feats, but you also had to make sure you qualified for each feat at the right level for fighters. Could increased familiarity as well?

Erm what? What the Baator are you basing this on? :smallconfused:

Swordsages are the only ones who gain a maneuver known at every level, so they have 7 1st-level ones and 2 from every level beyond that (barring maneuver exchanging). As long as they meet the prerequisites of course.

[Boci]

Erm what? What the Baator are you basing this on? :smallconfused:

Swordsages are the only ones who gain a maneuver known at every level, so they have 7 1st-level ones and 2 from every level beyond that (barring maneuver exchanging).

I operate under the assumption that the majority of the time you will exchange maneuvres when given the chance.

[Morph Bark]

I operate under the assumption that the majority of the time you will exchange maneuvres when given the chance.

In that case, you are correct about the warblade, off on your math on the swordsage and flat-out wrong in saying that warblades and crusaders can only have 2 maneuvers of each level.

[Boci]

In that case, you are correct about the warblade, off on your math on the swordsage and flat-out wrong in saying that warblades and crusaders can only have 2 maneuvers of each level.

By level I mean level of the maneuvres, not the class's level. I hoped the example made up for my unclear language.

[Firechanter]

I find the real problem is that you have to keep track of prereqs. That can really be a bitch.

[Keld Denar]

Also, I seem to remember a page on 339 (Tome of Battle for Dummies?) that had a list of all maneuvers from all schools in ascending order with the number of prereqs needed listed next to them. I don't remember where it is anymore though...

Like:
Desert Wind
1
Blistering Flourish Strike 0
Burning Blade Boost 0
Distracting Ember Boost 0
Flames Blessing Stance 0
2
Burning Brand Boost 0
Flame Ripost Counter 1
Flashing Sun Strike 1
Hatchling's Flame Strike 1
3
etc

[cfalcon]

I'm pretty sure you could just make a table that lists what your highest level of each maneuver is at each level. The problem is that "maneuvers known" is retarded. It would be like if a wizard had a "spells available" column, and you had to figure out that it was talking about 5th or 3rd or whatever by working through all the previous ones.

Based on: http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20060802a&page=2

You might say:

1st level: 1: 3, 2+: 0
2nd level: 1: 4, 2+: 0
3rd level: 1: 4, 2: 1, 3+:0
4th level: 1: 3, 2: 2, 3+:0
5th level: 1: 3, 2: 2, 3: 1, 4+: 0
6th level: 1: 2, 2: 2, 3: 2, 4+: 0

Basically, just go through the chart. Every time you see the number of manuevers known go up, add one to the highest allowed. If you are at an odd level, that would mean you would add one to a new level, because odd levels are when you get those. If it's an even level, you just add it to the highest one already. Then, at even levels that aren't level 2, subtract one from the lowest value still on the table, and put it at the highest one, because even levels you get to drop a lowest level one and put it in the highest slot.

Then just be sure you have the prereqs checked off when you assign stuff: like when you create, start with your highest level maneuvers you want, and scrawl down what you need real quick (WR need () () ). Then as you go, just check off the maneuvers you have written down.

There could be a faster way, of course, but that way seems pretty good. But you gotta make the chart, and it's something you'd have to put somewhere else: that's the big problem with closed content, after all.

[kts2008]

If you have two initiator classes, you can just divide IL into two columns
{table]ECL|Class|WB IL|Cru IL|Gain|Lose|Stance
1|Warblade1|1|.5|Steel Wind, Saph Nightmare Blade, Stone Bones||Punishing Stance
2|Crusader1|1.5|1.5|W||X
3|Crusader2|2|2.5|Y||Z
4|Warblade2|3|3|Mountain Hammer||
[/table]

etc

Initiator levels from full initiator classes stack, so a Warblade 2/Crusader 2 would have an IL of 4, not 3

[Keld Denar]

No...ILs are tracked seperate for different initiator classes.

Tome of Battle, page 39, lays it out pretty precisely.


<snip> If you are a multiclass martial adept, and you learn a new maneuver by attaining a new level in a martial adept class, determine your initiator level by adding together your level in that class +1/2 your levels in all other classes. <snip>

For example, a 7th level crusader/5th level swordsage has an intiator level of 9th for determining the highest level maneuvers he can take as a crusader. As a swordsage, his initiator level is 8th, allowing him to take 4th level swordsage maneuvers.
Emphasis mine.

[kts2008]

Huh, you're right. That . . . makes no sense at all. why would IL not stack?

[Hiro Protagonest]

Huh, you're right. That . . . makes no sense at all. why would IL not stack?

Does caster level for two spellcasting classes stack? No. So why should initiator level.

[kts2008]

because we already get half IL from non initiator classes, and there is allot less difference between say, Swordsage and Crusader than Cleric and wizard. Incidentally, if I hadn't sworn off DMing, i would probably allow arcane spell casting caster levels to stack

[Hand_of_Vecna]

The easiest way to make a high level initiator is backwards.

So lvl ten warblade has two level 5 manuevers one from level 9 and one from trading in an old manuever at level 10. Then pick your level four manuevers, make note of any prereqs, because now it's time to fill in their list with prereqs taking the best manuevers that fill your prereqs. Just keep going backward in this fashion, remember that you've replaced 4 low level manuevers so you'll have to not make some of those picks to represent this. Also remember that there may be an important low level manuever you don't want to sacrifice like moment of perfect mind.

[Veyr]

I would very seriously try talking to your DM about waiving the pre-requisites. Here's the reasons:
They're a major pain in the ass to work with when building a higher-level initiator from scratch.
They really hurt PrCs; if you gain a new school beginning at, say, 11th level due to taking a PrC that gives it, you can't access its higher level maneuvers unless you spend a lot of your (relatively few) maneuvers known on pre-reqs that you won't use (ToB maneuvers don't generally scale since you're supposed to ready higher-level ones).
The balance effect of pre-requisites is negligible, unless you consider that bit above about PrCs a good thing — your limited maneuvers known and readied mean you're not really getting a great deal more versatility out of the deal.
No other class in the game has those sort of restrictions. On a fluff level, it can make a certain degree of sense (Wolf Fang Strike leading to Raging Mongoose), but could just as easily not (Claw at the Moon leading to Raging Mongoose), and is overall a really minor point anyway.
Overall, they're not a great concern while single-classed, mechanically speaking, but they're a huge annoyance.

[Thespianus]

Waiving the prereqs for ToB-classes seems reasonable to me, not only for ToB classes, but also for the Feats Martial Study and Martial Stance. If you play a "regular" Melee character and want to spend a Fighter feat at level 12 to get a manouver, you'll run into a wall of off limits Manouvers, just because of the prereqs.

Meleers ought to be able to have nice things, even if they're not ToB-classes.

[cfalcon]

I'm pretty wary of buffing 9swords guys even more by erasing prereqs completely. If you did that, you would probably want to actually turn their list into "manuevers known per level" much as the sorcerer has "spells known per level". With it written in stone what they can know, prereqs seem like they would not be serving their original purpose.

[Morph Bark]

By level I mean level of the maneuvres, not the class's level. I hoped the example made up for my unclear language.

I know, but the way you said it it appeared that you meant you cannot have more than 2 maneuvers of a specific level of maneuver. Which is just silly.


Huh, you're right. That . . . makes no sense at all. why would IL not stack?

Because then you could theoretically take 17 levels in Warblade, then 1 level of Swordsage and get 9th-level maneuvers. Then you take 1 level of Crusader to get Devoted Spirit's 9th-level one.

[Thespianus]

I'm pretty wary of buffing 9swords guys even more by erasing prereqs completely. If you did that, you would probably want to actually turn their list into "manuevers known per level" much as the sorcerer has "spells known per level". With it written in stone what they can know, prereqs seem like they would not be serving their original purpose.

I'm not sure I follow. How would waiving the prereqs make it written in stone what manouvers a 9swords guy knows?

But, maybe you have a point.

I would be all for scrapping the prereqs for the Martial Study and Martial Stance feats, however. It's really hard to use those feats once you go above level 3 Manouvers, and a 12-15th level fighter ought to be able to cherrypick a few efficient Manouvers without having the prereq tax imposed on him as well. He already have the IL = CL/2 penalty.

[Boci]

I know, but the way you said it it appeared that you meant you cannot have more than 2 maneuvers of a specific level of maneuver. Which is just silly.

That is kinda how it works out for the warblade and crusader. They gain a bunch of 1st level maneuvres, then 1 for each new level of maneuvre available, plus they can retrain a lower level maneuvre. If they really want to they can have more, but by defeault its 2 for each level past 1.

[Prime32]

I would very seriously try talking to your DM about waiving the pre-requisites. Here's the reasons:
They're a major pain in the ass to work with when building a higher-level initiator from scratch.
They really hurt PrCs; if you gain a new school beginning at, say, 11th level due to taking a PrC that gives it, you can't access its higher level maneuvers unless you spend a lot of your (relatively few) maneuvers known on pre-reqs that you won't use (ToB maneuvers don't generally scale since you're supposed to ready higher-level ones).
The balance effect of pre-requisites is negligible, unless you consider that bit above about PrCs a good thing — your limited maneuvers known and readied mean you're not really getting a great deal more versatility out of the deal.
No other class in the game has those sort of restrictions. On a fluff level, it can make a certain degree of sense (Wolf Fang Strike leading to Raging Mongoose), but could just as easily not (Claw at the Moon leading to Raging Mongoose), and is overall a really minor point anyway.
Overall, they're not a great concern while single-classed, mechanically speaking, but they're a huge annoyance.Agreed on all counts. I've never played in a game that enforced them.