Why must Wizards pay more to expand their repertoire?

[Endarire]

I understand buying a scroll and transcribing it to my spellbook. Paying resources for a scroll of something is a logical transaction.

Why must I pay 100G per spell level to add it to my spellbook? The transcription fees are horrid for low-level Wizards!

[AsteriskAmp]

I understand buying a scroll and transcribing it to my spellbook. Paying resources for a scroll of something is a logical transaction.

Why must I pay 100G per spell level to add it to my spellbook? The transcription fees are horrid for low-level Wizards!

Because at higher levels the cost is almost negligible?
Wizards at low level are meant to not be so awesome and cannot fuel their power through money, contrary to the magic weapon fighter.

Some levels later you will be bathing in gold while the fighter sells his only loincloth for a +2 sword.

[Tvtyrant]

Because the amount of power you get for buying that spell is massive. The lower the cost of spells that more you will know and the more powerful you become, like a giant arcane sponge absorbing everything into its air pockets.

[Endarire]

I've found spell slots to be a more limiting factor than spells known. Making scrolls of spells I know costs resources and the spells are at lower saves and CLs.

[BRC]

I understand buying a scroll and transcribing it to my spellbook. Paying resources for a scroll of something is a logical transaction.

Why must I pay 100G per spell level to add it to my spellbook? The transcription fees are horrid for low-level Wizards!
Two resons
1) Spells are basically the only tools a Wizard needs. Other magic items and equipment are important, but Spells are far more important. Spells are to a wizard what a sword is to a fighter, only far more versatile.
2) Wizards actaully have it easy when it comes to expanding their list of options. A Fighter can buy a new weapon, and once you have a melee weapon and a ranged weapon there is only so much you can do with that. Sorcerers can buy Scrolls and Wands, which are of limited use, and expensive.
A Wizard can permanently gain an entirely new ability, not a variant on an existing ability (Like dealing bludgeoning damage versus slashing), an entirely new ability, simply by spending a relatively small amount of money. Sorcerers must level up to learn new spells, and they have a very limited number of spells they can learn.

When it comes to expanding repertoires, Wizards have it easy.

[Forged Fury]

Why must I pay 100G per spell level to add it to my spellbook? The transcription fees are horrid for low-level Wizards!
Just think of it as a down-payment toward the ability to crack reality asunder in a few more levels.

[CTrees]

This is one of the things I really like in pathfinder-scribing low level spells costs a pitance, and high level ones cast rather a check of change. Seems like good balancing, that.

[TroubleBrewing]

If the cost is bothering you, pay for a scroll of Wall of Iron and use it to create infinite wealth. Seriously. 100gp/spell level is peanuts compared to the power you get.

[Aspenor]

Mostly because no wizard in their right mind actually buys a scroll to scribe it. They pay friendly wizards to give them spells instead.

[Flickerdart]

Mostly because no wizard in their right mind actually buys a scroll to scribe it. They pay friendly kill enemy wizards to give them spells instead.
Fixed it for you. :smallbiggrin:

[Grendus]

So your suggestion for gaining new spells is to attack other beings who sunder reality for kicks?

I'd rather just pay em. Call it a mutually ensure destruction payment - I'll pay you, because if I tried to take your spellbook it would turn into rocket tag and there's a chance I could be reduced to dust as a standard action.

[Divide by Zero]

So your suggestion for gaining new spells is to attack other beings who sunder reality for kicks?

Just pretend you're Megaman.

[elonin]

You are paying for versatility. If you can get by with 2 free spells per level known then you don't need to pay anything. It has been said before but spells known isn't an issue for wizards, the bottle neck is spells that you can prep each day.

[GoodbyeSoberDay]

I'm sure there's a more complete list, but here are some ways to mitigate those costs:

- Geometer (CArc) significantly reduces scribing costs and time, but it doesn't do much else, and there are a lot of good wizard PrCs out there.
- MotAO (CArc) gives you the spell pool for added versatility, and it adds to your spellbook a few times, but more importantly it gives you a solid in-game reason to have friendly wizards nearby who are willing to trade spells. I'd recommend this over Geometer unless you're not the 'organized wizard' type.
- Blessed Book (DMG, SRD) eliminates scribing costs at an upfront cost which only becomes profitable in the late levels, but boy does it become profitable!
- Collegiate Wizard (CArc) grants two more free spells per level and gives you a bonus to K: Arcana, for the price of a first level feat and some suggested fluff.
- Domain Wizard (UA) gives you a free domain spell per level among other benefits, but you can't specialize (but unlike the underpowered Lightning Warrior you keep your familiar) and the domain spells are fixed; there is no domain with all good spells, but most of the domains have good spells overall.
- Elven Generalist (RotW) substitution level gives you one free spell per level along with other benefits, but again, you can't specialize, and you have to qualify as an elf. For DM wrath, combine with Domain Wizard.

[Etrivar]

If none of you other posters will come right out and say it, I will:

Suck it up.

Any wizard that complains about having a mechanic built into their class that allows them to (kinda-sorta) know every arcane spell in the game needs a nice long trip to Camp Quitchurbitchen. Most sorcerers would gladly murder their best friend for that ability (good-aligned sorcerers, even!).

The gold piece cost is an absolute joke when compared to the astounding flexibility it grants you.

EDIT: @ elonin: The only reason it is said that spells known isn't a problem for wizards is because they can add spells to their spell book at any time. Two per level isn't particularly impressive; there are some levels were sorcerers gain four spells. But, a wizard can add a spell any time he comes across one, which is why they are a tier one class, and sorcs are a tier two.

EDIT: EDIT: @ GoodbyeSoberDay: What the heck is with Collegiate Wizard!?!? As if wizards needed MORE help with spells known!! Lets give the fighter more feats while we're at it! And hold a fundraiser for Bill Gates, because he really needs the money! :smallannoyed:

[Legend]

I understand buying a scroll and transcribing it to my spellbook. Paying resources for a scroll of something is a logical transaction.

Why must I pay 100G per spell level to add it to my spellbook? The transcription fees are horrid for low-level Wizards!You mean 100 gp not 100G, which is something a few orders of magnitude greater. Really 100 gp/level becomes trivial pretty quickly.

[GoodbyeSoberDay]

EDIT: EDIT: @ GoodbyeSoberDay: What the heck is with Collegiate Wizard!?!? As if wizards needed MORE help with spells known!! Lets give the fighter more feats while we're at it! And hold a fundraiser for Bill Gates, because he really needs the money! :smallannoyed:Oddly, or sadly depending on your view, it's not that powerful of a feat in freer games compared to other wizard options. It's obviously a great feat under GMs who are stingy with the scrolls/spellbooks/downtime, but that's a special case.

[absolmorph]

You mean 100 gp not 100G, which is something a few orders of magnitude greater. Really 100 gp/level becomes trivial pretty quickly.
I think 100 Earth-gravities is a completely different scale than 100 gp.
How would one even PAY that?

[TroubleBrewing]

The cost would be heavy, to be sure.

[Figgin of Chaos]

Just think of it as a down-payment toward the ability to crack reality asunder in a few more levels.

Exactly. Wizards wield so much power, the world has to fight them with economics itself just to stay intact.

[Seerow]

OP is right, wizards are so weak, they need some buffs thrown their way.

[TroubleBrewing]

I mean, they don't even get full BAB. How do they expect to compete when they run out spells?

Not gonna hit anything with that crossbow, Gandalf. Why don't you let Regdar handle all those tough enemies with too many hit points to fireball?

[HalfDragonCube]

I mean, they don't even get full BAB. How do they expect to compete when they run out spells?

Not gonna hit anything with that crossbow, Gandalf. Why don't you let Regdar handle all those tough enemies with too many hit points to fireball?

Try plane shifing to a plane with the fast time trait. Sleep, re-prep spells. Plane shift again. Destroy puny mortals.

@V [/sarcasm] tags help.

[TroubleBrewing]

Try plane shifing to a plane with the fast time trait. Sleep, re-prep spells. Plane shift again. Destroy puny mortals.

Maaaaan... I'm sorry, that was a total sarcasm fail on my part. Read my post again, but with a sneer on your face this time.

[elonin]

EDIT: @ elonin: The only reason it is said that spells known isn't a problem for wizards is because they can add spells to their spell book at any time. Two per level isn't particularly impressive; there are some levels were sorcerers gain four spells. But, a wizard can add a spell any time he comes across one, which is why they are a tier one class, and sorcs are a tier two.


My point was that if someone wants to complain about the cost of spells that they can do well with the free spells or by just buying a few (thus another reason why the complaint is unwarranted).

I've been on the other side when I didn't know what I was doing with wizard building. Had spent 90% of my WBL on getting spells into my book. It was a weird campaign in which we were dealing with clerics and thus there were no captured scrolls or spell books. The details of the adventure also deprived me of other arcanists with whom to share books.

[PlzBreakMyCmpAn]

The transcription fees are horridly low for Wizards!FTFY

I know I am repeating myself, but you just freaking love strengthening those Tier1 full cas

[cfalcon]

The Pathfinder pricing is probably better.

One thing I would recommend for treasure is "materials for scribing", such as inks, that you can use to scribe spells or scrolls with. Be sure to express this in GP value, of course. You can also come up with (and be more generous with) inks that only work up to a certain level.


But the core of the system isn't broken. Low level spells are expensive, but high level ones really aren't.

[GoodbyeSoberDay]

I was about to make a post about how it should be quadratically priced, and then I went and checked pathfinder. 10*[spell level]^2 is low at all levels, so the OP can rejoice. I guess wizards needed the bump? How did they fix that and miss planar binding?

[Seerow]

I was about to make a post about how it should be quadratically priced, and then I went and checked pathfinder. 10*[spell level]^2 is low at all levels, so the OP can rejoice. I guess wizards needed the bump? How did they fix that and miss planar binding?

lol 810 gold for a 9th level spel.



Let's try something like 25*(spell lvl)^3


That gets you:
1st-25
2nd-200
3rd-675
4th-1600
5th-3125
6th-5,400
7th-8,755
8th-12,800
9th-18,225


Seems closer to right at least.

[GoodbyeSoberDay]

Get rid of Blessed Book and that might make a dent. I guess it would still burn mid level casters (ridiculously so).

[LordBlades]

Get rid of Blessed Book and that might make a dent. I guess it would still burn mid level casters that don't use any WBL breaking spells like Wall of Salt/Stone/Iron (ridiculously so).

fixed that for you

[GoodbyeSoberDay]

fixed that for youOkay, so it gimps casters who don't break the game, and doesn't gimp casters who do. How does this help?

[LordBlades]

Okay, so it gimps casters who don't break the game, and doesn't gimp casters who do. How does this help?

My point exactly. If the caster doesn't want to break the game, then why the need to nerf him? If he does want to break the game, this nerf won't stop him.

IMHO I do think that increasing the gold cost of adding spells to a spellbook is slightly unfair as long as you leave clerics and druids untouched. They are also Tier 1 casters, that get access to their entire spell list without needing to spend 1 gp for that, and also don't have their spell knowledge keyed to an item that can be stolen/destroyed/whatever and therefore needs additional resources spent to protect it/acquire back-ups.

[Cyrion]

I was about to make a post about how it should be quadratically priced, and then I went and checked pathfinder. 10*[spell level]^2 is low at all levels, so the OP can rejoice. I guess wizards needed the bump? How did they fix that and miss planar binding?

Add a couple of parentheses to change it a bit:

(10*[spell level])^2

[CTrees]

Add a couple of parentheses to change it a bit:

(10*[spell level])^2

So... just one hundred times the square of the spell level, then?

I *could* see a more complicated curve, though. Or maybe just, 20*SL^3? That's 5, 10, 80, 270, ..., 3430, 5120, 7290. It's not enough to be impossible to afford, but enough to still be a noticeable cost if you're not breaking WBL (remember that the guideline for paying to copy another spellbook in PF is half the cost to scribe). Of course, Blessed Book breaks this ridiculously. *shrug*

[HalfDragonCube]

If you need no ink to write in a blessed book, then how do you make any marks on it?

[Hazzardevil]

By Raw a wizard can cast Minor creation or Polymorph to turn stuff or create gold and the wizard never worries about money again.

[HalfDragonCube]

By Raw a wizard can cast Minor creation or Polymorph to turn stuff or create gold and the wizard never worries about money again.

... Now they worry about their money being made of vegetable matter.

[Divide by Zero]

And then if the town guard doesn't catch them, the merchant's guild starts sending mercenaries.

[FMArthur]

And then if the town guard doesn't catch them, the merchant's guild starts sending mercenaries.

The perfect plan! Now you don't even need to go adventuring for combat and EXP! :smallbiggrin:

[HalfDragonCube]

The perfect plan! Now you don't even need to go adventuring for combat and EXP! :smallbiggrin:

Assassins are a good way of adding flavour to the campaign and balancing out the 'magic is overpowered problem'.

They also add in a good reason to find ways to have power ready on tap all of the time, such as wild shaping, having a pet undead horde and being a mystic theurge so you can 'go to bed with more slots than most casters wake up with'.

Preferably all at once.

[Eric Tolle]

By RAW, one can buy 10' ladders for 5cp each, split them in two, and sell the halves as 10' poles for 5sp. Spend 5cp for a new ladder, and that gives you 4.5sp profit. Repeat until you have as much money as you can stand.

IIRC, there's also a similar trick one can pull using iron keyless, but thre important thing is one doesn't need a mage to get infinite wealth.

[Divide by Zero]

By RAW, one can buy 10' ladders for 5cp each, split them in two, and sell the halves as 10' poles for 5sp. Spend 5cp for a new ladder, and that gives you 4.5sp profit. Repeat until you have as much money as you can stand.

IIRC, there's also a similar trick one can pull using iron keyless, but thre important thing is one doesn't need a mage to get infinite wealth.

Except that any sane DM would immediately houserule that away, whereas mass-producing iron actually makes sense until you start running into inflation and people hating you.

[Seerow]

By RAW, one can buy 10' ladders for 5cp each, split them in two, and sell the halves as 10' poles for 5sp. Spend 5cp for a new ladder, and that gives you 4.5sp profit. Repeat until you have as much money as you can stand.

IIRC, there's also a similar trick one can pull using iron keyless, but thre important thing is one doesn't need a mage to get infinite wealth.

"Hi, I'd like to buy 100,000 gp worth of ladders"
"What the hell do you want with 2,000,000 ladders?!"
"That's my business"

*5 minutes later*

"So I'd like to interest you in this great deal I have on 5 foot poles. Buy in bulk now and I can sell you 4,000,000 10 ft poles at a steal, only 4sp a piece! 20% below normal prices!"

[Seerow]

Except that any sane DM would immediately houserule that away, whereas mass-producing iron actually makes sense until you start running into inflation and people hating you.

PCs mass producing iron is as much a suspension of disbelief as somehow making millions off selling 10ft poles. Why are PC wizards the only ones who do this? And if every wizard ever does it to fund their stuff, the suppy for iron should be sky high, and prices should be bottom of the barrel, to the point where it's not worth the time to sell it. And good luck finding anyone who wants to buy it in bulk who doesn't already have a reliable supplier.

The only way wizards having infinite wealth via walls of iron makes sense is if you play where your players are the only mid-to-high-level characters in existence. And if you're doing that, players can already be as rich as they want to be simply because they can steal whatever they want with no recourse against them, and any useful items can't be bought... so who cares?

[FMArthur]

By RAW, one can buy 10' ladders for 5cp each, split them in two, and sell the halves as 10' poles for 5sp. Spend 5cp for a new ladder, and that gives you 4.5sp profit. Repeat until you have as much money as you can stand.

IIRC, there's also a similar trick one can pull using iron keyless, but thre important thing is one doesn't need a mage to get infinite wealth.

10' ladders being able to be split into 10' poles is not in the rules as far as I can tell. Splitting ladders into poles is one of the unmentioned things that a DM can make work, because it's sensible and simple. Destroying the game's economy based on a very simple, DM-parsed action probably isn't a real problem that can happen, though.

[Infernalbargain]

10' ladders being able to be split into 10' poles is not in the rules as far as I can tell. Splitting ladders into poles is one of the unmentioned things that a DM can make work, because it's sensible and simple. Destroying the game's economy based on a very simple, DM-parsed action probably isn't a real problem that can happen, though.

I believe Sunder rules would work using standard hardness and HP for wood.

[FMArthur]

I believe Sunder rules would work using standard hardness and HP for wood.

At which point the ladder is destroyed, as per the Sunder and Smashing an Object rules. And your DM, being nice, modifies this to have it split into poles as per your character's expressed intention with the Sunder.

[Ernir]

I understand buying a scroll and transcribing it to my spellbook. Paying resources for a scroll of something is a logical transaction.

Why must I pay 100G per spell level to add it to my spellbook? The transcription fees are horrid for low-level Wizards!

Wizards do not pay more for expanding their repertoire. They pay less. The equivalent price for a Sorcerer to learn an additional spell is 1000*spell level^2, if you go by Knowstones.

[TroubleBrewing]

Wizards do not pay more for expanding their repertoire. They pay less. The equivalent price for a Sorcerer to learn an additional spell is 1000*spell level^2, if you go by Knowstones.

AAAAAAAAaaaaaannnnnddddd [/thread].

Awesome. You win an internet.

[Ravens_cry]

At which point the ladder is destroyed, as per the Sunder and Smashing an Object rules. And your DM, being nice, modifies this to have it split into poles as per your character's expressed intention with the Sunder.
On the other hand, there is nothing that says the metal from a Wall of Iron (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/wallOfIron.htm) can not be sold (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/equipment/wealthAndMoney.htm). I would only allow this once per area every few years, at a reduced price after the first time though.

[Pigkappa]

My point exactly. If the caster doesn't want to break the game, then why the need to nerf him? If he does want to break the game, this nerf won't stop him.

We don't need to nerf the wizards because they can break the game. Only one wizard in a thousand will ever break the game with infinite wealth tricks or ways to have free wishes. 99.9% DMs won't allow that.

We have to solve the problem that wizard who don't try to break the game with those tricks can still be better than anybody else.

[FMArthur]

Hey, all I mentioned was ladders-to-poles. Wall of Iron works totally - as a DM all I can say is that it works well enough to already be in use, and the costs are those of the spell and the labour in getting the iron off the wall in chunks.

[John Campbell]

By RAW, one can buy 10' ladders for 5cp each, split them in two, and sell the halves as 10' poles for 5sp. Spend 5cp for a new ladder, and that gives you 4.5sp profit. Repeat until you have as much money as you can stand.
Five silver for that pole? You must be jesting. It's got holes bored in it every foot or so. No structural integrity.

Ah, tell ya what, I'll give you a copper for it, because I like your face.

[Jjeinn-tae]

Five silver for that pole? You must be jesting. It's got holes bored in it every foot or so. No structural integrity.

Ah, tell ya what, I'll give you a copper for it, because I like your face.

I was always curious why the merchants never seem to notice those in these stories.

[TroubleBrewing]

Five silver for that pole? You must be jesting. It's got holes bored in it every foot or so. No structural integrity.

Ah, tell ya what, I'll give you a copper for it, because I like your face.

Structural integrity, my left foot! I know all you're going to use this pole for is checking for traps. The acid splash and the fire burst won't care about the holes.

Also, if you see that eleven-foot pole merchant, tell him not to show his mug around here... Undercutting little weasel.

If you see the elven-foot pole merchant, run for your miserable life.