How should Tarquin end up?

[Cybertoy00]

This is a thread dedicated to theories and ideas on the overall fate of Tarquin, Elan and Nale's evil, dramatic father. What fate do you want to happen to him?
My hope is that Elan and Nale's mom shows up and sues him for unpaid alimoney. It'd be funny, since it's probably been over twenty years since the last payment. His whole scheme would go belly-up from bankruptsy.

[Gift Jeraff]

I'd like to see him get stabbed by Nale (the same way he backstabbed Elan back in the beginning, for dramatic purposes), and in his final moments, realize that his sole purpose in existence was to act as the tough guy who gets shamelessly killed just to show how much tougher another villain has become. (Not to mention, a villain he himself rejected, insulted, and ultimately created.)

[The Pilgrim]

I was going to say that I want Tarquin to end up dead.

But I have to agree with the post before me.

[TimelordSimone]

I'd like to see him get stabbed by Nale (the same way he backstabbed Elan back in the beginning, for dramatic purposes), and in his final moments, realize that his sole purpose in existence was to act as the tough guy who gets shamelessly killed just to show how much tougher another villain has become. (Not to mention, a villain he himself rejected, insulted, and ultimately created.)

That would be excellent.

[sims796]

I have to agree with the post that says he has to agree with the post above theirs.

[Kish]

"Casually waxed by a more important villain" sounds good to me. I don't think it's going to be Nale, but Xykon could fit the bill.

[NerfTW]

So a general of an entire army, with not only that kingdom's entire resources behind him, but 4 other cohorts hiding in the wings unknown to anyone but the Order and Nale, is going to just die and not be immediately raised from the dead?


Nope. Nale killing Tarquin randomly isn't going to accomplish anything other than annoy him.. In fact, it's pretty likely he's died and been raised a few times already. (Although Malack, being a worshiper of death, probably wouldn't do it himself)

[Porthos]

In such a way that he either gets totally forgotten by the rest of the world or has such an ignominious end that the people who do find about about him laugh when thinking about him and view him as a joke.

Either way will suit me just fine.

Mostly because it would wreck his whole "even if I die by the hands of a hero, I become a legend" plan he has going.

[Gift Jeraff]

So a general of an entire army, with not only that kingdom's entire resources behind him, but 4 other cohorts hiding in the wings unknown to anyone but the Order and Nale, is going to just die and not be immediately raised from the dead?
Because neither the Order nor the Guild (or whoever is there) would bother preventing Raise Dead/Resurrection. :smallconfused:

And if it's Xykon, say goodbye to True Resurrection (if he even gives him that much consideration).

[GrimTheMad]

Tarquin needs to die in the most dramatic way possible. I mean, trope-loving father killed by trope-loving son, and you want it to happen in a non-troperific way? Just... no.:smallannoyed:

[Deuterium Dawn]

I like Tarquin. He's got style. He's a nice counterpoint to the blunt force approach of Xykon and Nale's Bond Villain-esque ludicrousness. I'm hoping he survives this arc relatively intact and the Order can come back to deal with him later(or not, as the case may be) once Xykon is dealt with.

[Mr.Tickles]

I'd rather he doesn't die at all. Why should all "bad guys" lose?

[Gift Jeraff]

Tarquin needs to die in the most dramatic way possible. I mean, trope-loving father killed by trope-loving son, and you want it to happen in a non-troperific way? Just... no.:smallannoyed:
Technically, my suggestion has a trope behind it--the character that is built up to seem like such a powerhouse, only to be brought down to show how much more powerful that opponent is.

But besides that, he's a horrible monster who is too used to things going his way. Xykon is my favorite character, yet I want him to die in the most humiliating way possible. For Tarquin, something anticlimactic (like getting casually brushed off by Team Evil) or dying to Nale would probably be the worst fate imaginable to him.

And isn't the bad guy dying in an ironic manner considered "troperific" anyway?

[harmsc12]

Why can't Tarquin have an ending like Steve Buschemi in Con Air? Let him be the only bad guy that escapes justice.

[GrimTheMad]

Technically, my suggestion has a trope behind it--the character that is built up to seem like such a powerhouse, only to be brought down to show how much more powerful that opponent is.

But besides that, he's a horrible monster who is too used to things going his way. Xykon is my favorite character, yet I want him to die in the most humiliating way possible. For Tarquin, something anticlimactic (like getting casually brushed off by Team Evil) or dying to Nale would probably be the worst fate imaginable to him.

And isn't the bad guy dying in an ironic manner considered "troperific" anyway?

True enough, I should have said climactic. But yea, I like Tarquin, it would be horrid for him to die in a humiliating way.

[harmsc12]

True enough, I should have said climactic. But yea, I like Tarquin, it would be horrid for him to die in a humiliating way.

Seconded. Don't expose him to the Worf Effect.

[Forum Explorer]

It would be awesome if Nale and Tarquin fought though. Nale doesn't need to kill him just expose his plan to the leaders of each nation so that they would attack their advisors. This of course means that Nale is the lizardman!

[Toofey]

Technically, my suggestion has a trope behind it--the character that is built up to seem like such a powerhouse, only to be brought down to show how much more powerful that opponent is.



not just that, but a trope that's been referenced and not yet cashed in, in this arc.

[Vemynal]

I'd like to see him get stabbed by Nale (the same way he backstabbed Elan back in the beginning, for dramatic purposes), and in his final moments, realize that his sole purpose in existence was to act as the tough guy who gets shamelessly killed just to show how much tougher another villain has become. (Not to mention, a villain he himself rejected, insulted, and ultimately created.)

ok this would be awesome

[Kish]

I'd rather he doesn't die at all. Why should all "bad guys" lose?
Because the air quotes are inappropriate.

[Ancalagon]

He should die. He blew up Alderaan after all!

[Kish]

That was Tarkin, with a K.

[Souhiro]

I would ratherprefer Tarquin to end the comic in a trone made of Xykon's now Ultimate-Dead body and Resting his feet on Redcloak's disembowled head.

Then Elan, who is a Bard Lvl-x, Dashing Swordman Lvl-y and BADASS Lvl-1 pop ins into the room.

:elan:> Die monster! You don't belong in this world!
- Son, that IS the attitude. I'm so proud of you! This is the greatest tribute you could give me
:elan:> Tribute?!, You steal men's souls and make them your slaves!
- But... son. I'm not an nigromant. The ones who raises undeads were those two! I have SAVED MILLIONS!
:elan:> Your words are as empty as your soul! Mankind ill-needs a savior such as you!
- Glorious, my son. I'm ready for this ultimate showdown. But enough talk. Have at you!!

[Ancalagon]

That was Tarkin, with a K.

Now, really? Could it be you have classlevels as Paladin? ;)

[Zerg Cookie]

I want Tarquin to live like a king in the western continent until the day he dies of old age.
I mean, why not? I really like him as a character and think he deserves at least that.

[TimelordSimone]

I personally don't understand how liking someone as a character translates to wanting good things for them.

I like Tarquin as a character. I think he's fantastic. But I also think he's a vile person who deserves horrible things.

I like Miko as a character. This doesn't mean I think she deserved Redemption. But she was still fantastic character.

Dolores Umbridge, from Harry Potter. Again, absolutely adore her as a character, utterly detest her as a person. Did she deserve to get away with the terrible things she did because she was an engaging character?

I just don't see how thinking someone is a fantastic character translates to wanting good things for them.
It's entirely possible for someone to be a good character and a terrible person.

[pendell]

This is a thread dedicated to theories and ideas on the overall fate of Tarquin, Elan and Nale's evil, dramatic father. What fate do you want to happen to him?
My hope is that Elan and Nale's mom shows up and sues him for unpaid alimoney. It'd be funny, since it's probably been over twenty years since the last payment. His whole scheme would go belly-up from bankruptsy.

He's a lawful evil villain full of his own grandiose schemes. The story--appropriate ending would be for him to die in a completely inane fashion at the hands of some mook and be forgotten by everyone.

Let's not forget that he has murdered a lot of innocent people in his quest for glory. Poetic justice demands that he should have none. Just an insignificant footnote that no one outside of really serious history students remembers.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[Zerg Cookie]

It's not as much wanting good things to happen to him as to just admitting that while his plan might not be perfect, it's darn good and should work.
Or maybe it should all end in a "my one weakness" thing. I just like the first idea better.

[Bedinsis]

I want Xykon to come storming in, take control of everything, turn it into a hell on Stickworld. I then want Tarquin to realize that he won't be remembered as the big villain of the legends, he will not be remembered at all (aside from maybe that unnamed extra who was the good Empress of Blood's general). I want this to greatly upset him, more than the fact that he no longer rules the Empire, and he'll therefore go to great lengths to ensure being remembered. I then want Elan to point out to him that despite all his condonement of Nale's attitude, they're still of the same attitude. ("You're no better then Nale.")
Then I want him to die.

Or maybe Xykon storms in, destroys the three empires, thereby ensuring that the crafted stalemate breaks and the three empires are split into small kingdoms, which means that they have to start all over. The more good members of his guild realizes that the plan wasn't able to accomplish anything for the wellbeing of the continent in the end, and therefore not team up with Tarquin for another go. The remaining aren't interested, so Tarquin tries to start an empire alone and ends like most would-be rulers. Dead. And forgotten.

[MesiDoomstalker]

I want Xykon to come storming in, take control of everything, turn it into a hell on Stickworld. I then want Tarquin to realize that he won't be remembered as the big villain of the legends, he will not be remembered at all (aside from maybe that unnamed extra who was the good Empress of Blood's general). I want this to greatly upset him, more than the fact that he no longer rules the Empire, and he'll therefore go to great lengths to ensure being remembered. I then want Elan to point out to him that despite all his condonement of Nale's attitude, they're still of the same attitude. ("You're no better then Nale.")
Then I want him to die.

This. This is the perfect end. Thread done. Bedinsis, you win the thread.

Just joking. I can't declare that. But I do really like this idea.

[JSSheridan]

Losing everything and allying w/ the OotS has been done.

Maybe he allies w/ Team Evil and keeps everything.

[Metahuman1]

Have him killed by a person in a cloak that hides there face, with a Katana.

Have person remove cloak and turn out to be Miko, back from the dead.

Then have her sheath her Katana, get on her knees, draw her short sword, and tell the order "I'm sorry. If you want to kill me, I'll help, but if you can see your way clear to giving me a second chance, I would like to aid you."


It would be something not many would see coming, particularly given that were in page 2 of this thread and I'm the first one pitching it.

[Goosefeather]

Spontaneous combustion would be 'something not many would see coming', but that doesn't necessarily make it an interesting, just or satisfying end. Miko's story is complete, and bringing her back would almost certainly feel cheap and indulgent, especially in such an unforeshadowed, non-sequitur manner - it would just be poor story-telling.

[Da'Shain]

In order to ensure that he doesn't win by any stretch of the word, pretty much the only fitting punishment would be Xykon soul-gemming him on impulse, say, just to hurt the OotS (he hears that Tarquin's Elan's father and without hearing anything else kills him and soul gems him) and then losing the gem in some insignificant, remote area where it stays for millennia.

Otherwise, even if Tarquin's forgotten and killed, he still got his decades of being in power and luxury, and still gets a chance at continuing his scheming as a Devil or some such after toiling for enough time. Assuming that Devils in OotS work that way, of course.

Not sure whether that's actually what I want to happen, but that's the only thing I can think of where he doesn't win even in his own mind.

[BlackestOfMages]

Have him killed by a person in a cloak that hides there face, with a Katana.

Have person remove cloak and turn out to be Miko, back from the dead.

Then have her sheath her Katana, get on her knees, draw her short sword, and tell the order "I'm sorry. If you want to kill me, I'll help, but if you can see your way clear to giving me a second chance, I would like to aid you."


It would be something not many would see coming, particularly given that were in page 2 of this thread and I'm the first one pitching it.

but that requires MIKO to think she's done something wrong, which will happen after Xykon willingly saves the world for the sake of saving it (and not from mr snarl) and nale makes an actually intellegant plan

namely, we need alternate universes for it to occur

[Metahuman1]

1: He might just BE setting up alternative universes with the whole "there's a planet locked inside the gates." think.

2: Unlike spontaneous combustion, it's something D&D rules support.

3: It COULD come complete with a backstory on how she got sorted out in the mean time, learn error of her ways, Blah blah blah.

4: Yes, I realize that it'll happen the day after pigs fly and hell freezes over in the real world. Doesn't mean I can't sit there an think "but I'd still like to see it." Isn't that a large part of the point of the internet?

[Jay R]

He and Elan have the big dramatic duel that Tarquin said he wants. He reminds Elan that he's had his years as a tyrant, and what he wants most now is to be remembered in legend as the great villain bested by his son. Elan gives him the killing stroke.

As Tarquin lies dying, Elan starts singing the story of the great evil Empress of blood, and how she was defeated in epic combat by the son of her court jester Tarquin.

If the bard is your enemy, don't tell him how you want the story to be told.

[harmsc12]

He and Elan have the big dramatic duel that Tarquin said he wants. He reminds Elan that he's had his years as a tyrant, and what he wants most now is to be remembered in legend as the great villain bested by his son. Elan gives him the killing stroke.

As Tarquin lies dying, Elan starts singing the story of the great evil Empress of blood, and how she was defeated in epic combat by the son of her court jester Tarquin.

If the bard is your enemy, don't tell him how you want the story to be told.

This is much better than anything I would have thought of.

[MoonCat]

He and Elan have the big dramatic duel that Tarquin said he wants. He reminds Elan that he's had his years as a tyrant, and what he wants most now is to be remembered in legend as the great villain bested by his son. Elan gives him the killing stroke.

As Tarquin lies dying, Elan starts singing the story of the great evil Empress of blood, and how she was defeated in epic combat by the son of her court jester Tarquin.

If the bard is your enemy, don't tell him how you want the story to be told.

No, because he also said he didn't give a damn as long as he had gotten to live like a king for a few decades. Getting to be the badass bad guy in a legend would be a bonus.

[HalfTangible]

I personally don't understand how liking someone as a character translates to wanting good things for them.

Personally, i don't want Tarquin to live happily ever after but i do want his character to have a good (ie, epic, awesome) ending.

[Tazar]

My personal hope is for Elan to be indisposed of in some fashion and Tarquin to join the Order in their travels instead. I find him to be honestly the most delightful character in the series to date, and it's going to be a damn shame to lose him.

If that can't happen, I want him to have his overly dramatic death and the songs of his deeds be sung throughout the ages.

I must confess that the idea of people wanting Miko, of all people, to kill Tarquin is rather flabbergasting. Not only does it cheapen Miko's extremely poignant death, but furthermore it gets rid of a character with remarkable death and wit for one made out of cardboard.

[MoonCat]

Tarquin is evil Tazar. There's no way he'll be allowed to join the Order.

[Dark Faun]

Seeing as Belkar joined the Order and wasn't kicked out or killed when they found out he was evil (to a disturbing extent) and instead is still with them, "being evil" can hardly be considered something that prevents membership.

[Tazar]

Tarquin is evil Tazar. There's no way he'll be allowed to join the Order.

Ah, but Tarquin doesn't subscribe to your limited "alignment system". :smallwink:

Plus, Belkar's much more of a murderous psychopath than Tarquin is...

[harmsc12]

Tarquin is evil Tazar. There's no way he'll be allowed to join the Order.

Belkar.

The OOTS needs its Token Evil Teammate.

[Tazar]

Belkar.

The OOTS needs its Token Evil Teammate.

Oooooh....what if Belkar dies and Tarquin takes his place?

Man, I like that.

[MoonCat]

Ah, but Tarquin doesn't subscribe to your limited "alignment system". :smallwink:

Plus, Belkar's much more of a murderous psychopath than Tarquin is...

Yes, but Roy does. and Belkar's able to be pointed in the direction of bad guys, which makes it better that he's a murderous psychopath. Tarquin wouldn't be so easily used for good.


Belkar.

The OOTS needs its Token Evil Teammate.

Roy had to debate with the deva to let Belkar slide, I doubt he's going to do that again even if he didn't find the idea of employing Tarquin idiotic.


Oooooh....what if Belkar dies and Tarquin takes his place?

Man, I like that.

Same as above.

Now I suggest that if we continue this, it be in another thread, to avoid derailing this one any more.

[blackjack217]

He falls down some stairs

[martianmister]

Death from old age.

[Metahuman1]

Nale actually pulls something semi clever and manages too boost the mental stats of the empress of blood, thus getting Tarquin eaten and the rest of his old party similarly disposed of, and denying him his legendary ending while setting the son he denied up to reap the rewards of he plot.

Killed his dad, about to kill Elan, and in position to go after the gates.


Just another though. After all, even Nale has to roll a nat 20 sooner or later.

[Tazar]

Nale actually pulls something semi clever and manages too boost the mental stats of the empress of blood, thus getting Tarquin eaten and the rest of his old party similarly disposed of, and denying him his legendary ending while setting the son he denied up to reap the rewards of he plot.

Killed his dad, about to kill Elan, and in position to go after the gates.


Just another though. After all, even Nale has to roll a nat 20 sooner or later.

If you think about it, Nale's plans have actually worked out more often than not; the Order usually pulls out a MacGuffin or some ridiculous luck to win.

[MoonCat]

Nale actually pulls something semi clever and manages too boost the mental stats of the empress of blood, thus getting Tarquin eaten and the rest of his old party similarly disposed of, and denying him his legendary ending while setting the son he denied up to reap the rewards of he plot.

Killed his dad, about to kill Elan, and in position to go after the gates.


Just another though. After all, even Nale has to roll a nat 20 sooner or later.

Ooo, yes, having Tarquin killed by his patsy who he never considers would be awesome.

[Lowkey Lyesmith]

I kind of like the idea that Tarquin dies while doing something that will make people remeber him as good.

So he wont be remebered as the great villain, but as the good mentor who died saving the true hero.

[Scarlet Knight]

I want Xykon to come storming in, take control of everything, turn it into a hell on Stickworld. I then want Tarquin to realize that he won't be remembered as the big villain of the legends, he will not be remembered at all (aside from maybe that unnamed extra who was the good Empress of Blood's general).


Then he returns at the climax, becoming the piece that brings down Xykon, perhaps at great cost to himself, but assuring his legend.

Of course he survives, broken but incorrigible. Because of his role is saving the world, he is allowed to escape like Long John Silver, slipping away to start building new empires from scratch.

[RecklessFable]

He should trip and fall down the stairs while stepping out of the privy.

Someone so obsessed with a proper dramatic moment deserves a horribly meaningless end.

[Bedinsis]

Then he returns at the climax, becoming the piece that brings down Xykon, perhaps at great cost to himself, but assuring his legend.

You honestly want Tarquin to be the one that wraps up this comic? The one that resolves the overarching plot that has existed ever since the comic started eight years ago?

[WeLoveFireballs]

He should trip and fall down the stairs while stepping out of the privy.

Someone so obsessed with a proper dramatic moment deserves a horribly meaningless end.

Elan? Not everyone deserves humiliation. Tarquin is a very popular character.

Edit: Ninja'd

[Kish]

Tarquin is a very popular character.
I don't know that that's true. Some vocal people unaccountably like him.

He remains one of the most vile characters in the comic, which, considering Xykon and oh yeah, the son Tarquin raised are in the comic, is really saying something.

[Themrys]

He should be killed by a mook, made a sentient undead by Tsukiko and be forced to do whatever she wants - and I hope this included marriage to a woman (or maybe man) he finds really unattractive. :smallbiggrin:

[Tazar]

I don't know that that's true. Some vocal people unaccountably like him.

He remains one of the most vile characters in the comic, which, considering Xykon and oh yeah, the son Tarquin raised are in the comic, is really saying something.

What, so the fact that he's funny, charismatic, and really good at screwing the heroes over makes him "unaccountably popular"? :smallconfused:

You may not like him, but there's plenty of reasons for other people to like him.

Unless you're suggesting you've never liked a villain in any fictional work? For some reason, I find that extremely difficult to believe. :smallwink:

As far as I'm concerned, Tarquin is the best character this strip has produced to date.

[Kish]

What, so the fact that he's funny, charismatic, and really good at screwing the heroes over makes him "unaccountably popular"?

No, the fact that he's disgusting, deluded, and utterly evil makes people making strange assertions about him, such as that he's funny, charismatic, and really good at screwing over the heroes, unaccountable. (You really shouldn't put an inaccurate paraphrase in quotes, btw.)

[Tazar]

No, the fact that he's disgusting, deluded, and utterly evil makes people making strange assertions about him, such as that he's funny, charismatic, and really good at screwing over the heroes, unaccountable. (You really shouldn't put an inaccurate paraphrase in quotes, btw.)


I don't know that that's true. Some vocal people unaccountably like him.
.

Seems pretty accurate to me.

You would do well to bear in mind that that is your opinion of Tarquin. Do I deny that he's evil and does evil things? No. But that doesn't mean I can't like him.

May I ask if you like any villains from anything?

[G-Man Graves]

Deluded and evil, maybe.

You know who else was evil? Darth Vader. People love Darth Vader. You know who's even more "Disgusting, deluded and evil" than Tarquin? The Joker. The same one that was that many consider to be the single best part of any given Batman work he's in.

Spike is Evil.
Master is evil.
Xykon is evil.

I could go on, but the point stands. The fact that a character is evil does not make them a bad character. It makes them, you know, a villain.

[Kish]

You would do well to bear in mind that that is your opinion of Tarquin.

Wow, the chutzpah is astounding. Good thing you never confuse your opinion of Tarquin with objective reality, eh?

[Tazar]

Wow, the chutzpah is astounding. Good thing you never confuse your opinion of Tarquin with objective reality, eh?

Last time I checked, we were discussing why people like Tarquin, not the objective facts regarding Tarquin.

Personal character preferences are a subjective affair, are they not?

You've yet to address the fact that plenty of mainstream villains every bit as evil as Tarquin are extremely popular, I might add.

[Kish]

Last time I checked, we were discussing why people like Tarquin, not the objective facts regarding Tarquin.

Then you have apparently been posting responses that belongs in some other dialogue in response to me, which might explain why you think a direct contradiction of something I said is an accurate paraphrase of what I said.

[Tazar]

You keep saying I've misrepresented your posts, but could you please explain exactly how? All I've done is quote you. :smallconfused:

[G-Man Graves]

Wow, the chutzpah is astounding. Good thing you never confuse your opinion of Tarquin with objective reality, eh?

Okay, first things first. Take a step back, and take a deep breath. You seem a little upset.

Secondly, you said that people unaccountably like Tarquin. A character. In a comic. A comic that is about a battle between good and the various forces of evil. And your only evidence about why people's like for one of the villains is "unaccountable" is that he does evil things. Because he is deluded. Like, you know, a villain.

And then you claim that we are audacious for claiming that you shouldn't state such things as fact.

huh.

[Kish]

You keep saying I've misrepresented your posts, but could you please explain exactly how? All I've done is quote you. :smallconfused:

...wow. Asserting your supposed paraphrase was accurate was one thing; now you're claiming it's a quote.

No, I will not explain something so basic. If you really need someone to explain the difference between "accurate paraphrase," "statement that might vaguely resemble what the other person said but doesn't convey anything like the same meaning," and, "quote," you'll have to look elsewhere.

[MoonCat]

I love Tarquin as a character, with in depth feelings, real savvyness, adorable and fatherly. I also want him to die and burn in hell for a million years in horrible agony for all he's done. These two are not exclusive!

[Tazar]

...wow. Asserting your supposed paraphrase was accurate was one thing; now you're claiming it's a quote.

No, I will not explain something so basic. If you really need someone to explain the difference between "accurate paraphrase," "statement that might vaguely resemble what the other person said but doesn't convey anything like the same meaning," and, "quote," you'll have to look elsewhere.

Dude, I quoted your entire post in my first response. :smallconfused:

I'd love to correct any error, but you're going to have to explain it first.

[G-Man Graves]

This was written in response to someone saying that Tarquin is a very popular character.


I don't know that that's true. Some vocal people unaccountably like him.

Now, let's get out the old Merriam-Webster, shall we?

un·ac·count·a·ble/ˌənəˈkountəbəl/Adjective
1. Unable to be explained: "a strange and unaccountable fact".
2. (of a person or their behavior) Unpredictable and strange.

So you claimed that the fact that some people liked a character to be in defiance of all possible logic. That would imply two things.

1) You do not like Tarquin
2) You find anyone who does like him to be "wrong" in that opinion.

When asked why you felt this way, your response:


No, the fact that he's disgusting, deluded, and utterly evil makes people making strange assertions about him, such as that he's funny, charismatic, and really good at screwing over the heroes, unaccountable

Now, this is something else entirely. You seem to be implying that the fact that displays villainous characteristics (which is fitting, considering that he is a villain) makes the fact that people enjoy and mention his other, completely unrelated characteristics, "unaccountable".

Have I accurately summed up you opinion so that we can move on from semantics?

[harmsc12]

Have I accurately summed up you opinion so that we can move on from semantics?

No. This is the internet. Everyone is always wrong. All the time. No exceptions.

:thog:

I want to see some more debate on semantics.

[GrimTheMad]

I fail to see why people want him to end up in an unmemorable way. Yes, he's evil (sort of), but he is also arguably the greatest character this comic has ever produced, as far as depth is concerned. He should die in the most climactic way possible.

[veti]

I fail to see why people want him to end up in an unmemorable way. Yes, he's evil (sort of), but he is also arguably the greatest character this comic has ever produced, as far as depth is concerned. He should die in the most climactic way possible.

He's deep, therefore his death should satisfy the most cliched and shallow of tropes?

Let's go back to basics. The Giant knows what he's doing. His imagination is, not to put too fine a point on it, better than ours. That's why we're reading his story.

To say that Tarquin "should" do anything in particular just - shows a lack of faith in the author. (I almost said "disturbing" lack of faith, but on reflection I felt that particular dead horse deserves a break.)

[Kish]

I fail to see why people want him to end up in an unmemorable way. Yes, he's evil (sort of),

Oh why did they take out the eyeroll smiley...

but he is also arguably the greatest character this comic has ever produced, as far as depth is concerned.


I wish you were joking.

If his depth was doubled, and then doubled again, and then quadrupled, and then multiplied by ten...he might reach 1% of Redcloak's depth. Maybe. If we're particularly generous. He's at the same level of evil as Xykon and Nale, the primary difference being that he doesn't cop to it, and he's as petty as Nale.

[Tazar]

I wish you were joking.

If his depth was doubled, and then doubled again, and then quadrupled, and then multiplied by ten...he might reach 1% of Redcloak's depth. Maybe. If we're particularly generous. He's at the same level of evil as Xykon and Nale, the primary difference being that he doesn't cop to it, and he's as petty as Nale.

You can make an argument for either side, as far as I'm concerned. If there's anything that Whedon productions have taught me, it's that fan opinions on who has the best/deepest/most emotional character arc can be extremely diverse.

Let's ease up on the passive-aggressiveness, please?

[G-Man Graves]

Oh why did they take out the eyeroll smiley...


I wish you were joking.

If his depth was doubled, and then doubled again, and then quadrupled, and then multiplied by ten...he might reach 1% of Redcloak's depth. Maybe. If we're particularly generous. He's at the same level of evil as Xykon and Nale, the primary difference being that he doesn't cop to it, and he's as petty as Nale.

Here, let's go over the "depth" of each character:

Roy: Shallow subversion of the cliche that is dumb muscle. Engaged in lame, predictable character development from "sarcastic and selfishly motivated" to "sarcastic and selflessly motivated".
Belkar: Shallow parody of "That guy", the party member who just murders everything.
Elan: Idiot man child. That is seriously the entirety of his character.
Redcloak: Shallow "Hurr my parents are deeeeeeeeeeead" villain who works for a warped "greater good".
Miko: A parody of the wrong way to play Paladins wrong that people took far too seriously.
Xykon: Herp derp BBEG murder kill death.

This is easy. I can do this for every character in the story. It doesn't make it true (Except for Elan. That one is true). Tarquin doesn't become less of a developed character just because you say his is, due to your distaste.

[WeLoveFireballs]

Wow, the chutzpah is astounding. Good thing you never confuse your opinion of Tarquin with objective reality, eh?

Allow me to point out the difference between opinion and reality:

It is REALITY that:
Tarquin is evil
Tarquin kills people
Tarquin in running a massive conspiracy
Tarquin is trying to achieve fame and glory in legend or life

It is OPINION that:
Tarquin is twisted
Tarquin is a poor character
Tarquin is a great character

Also please try to be a tad more respectful in the future. Everyone will appreciate it. Even you when you get more respect in return.

Also please stop being obscure and then blaming others for not being as smart as you.

[Ninja Dragon]

Killed by a random unnamed character, at least 10 years after being taken down from the throne by Elan, who refused to kill him. That will give enough time for Tarquin to be forgotten by everyone.

No, I don't hate him, he is one of the most awesome characters I've ever seem, but he is evil, he deserves to be punished in a way that doesn't make him happy. And since he wants to become a legend, a good punishement is NOT to become a legend.

[Kish]

Allow me to point out the difference between opinion and reality:

It is REALITY that:
Tarquin is evil
Tarquin kills people
Tarquin in running a massive conspiracy
Tarquin is trying to achieve fame and glory in legend or life

It is OPINION that:
Tarquin is funny
Tarquin is popular
Tarquin is really good at screwing the heroes
Slight amendment, since your perception of who has been asserting opinions as fact seems a tad one-sided.

There are assertions that Tarquin is "sort of" evil but is incredibly deep and complex and compelling, and then there are ways to argue that Tarquin is an interesting character and shouldn't be brutally humiliated and disposed of that are possible to engage with on a level more sophisticated than "no, he's not." If I see the latter, I'll endeavor to engage with them.

[WeLoveFireballs]

Actually I would classify those under good character. I'm just using major viewpoints there.

I hold the latter viewpoint. Counterarguement?

[G-Man Graves]

Slight amendment, since your perception of who has been asserting opinions as fact seems a tad one-sided.

There are assertions that Tarquin is "sort of" evil but is incredibly deep and complex and compelling, and then there are ways to argue that Tarquin is an interesting character and shouldn't be brutally humiliated and disposed of that are possible to engage with on a level more sophisticated than "no, he's not." If I see the latter, I'll endeavor to engage with them.

Counter to said amendment. Just because he made your argument seem silly doesn't make the perception one sided.

Tarquin is an evil villain. No one (in this thread) is denying that. This does not, however, mean that he cannot be "deep and complex and compelling" (with compelling being completely in the eyes of the beholder).

Incidentally, the irony of you claiming that people cannot come up with "sophisticated" arguments for why Tarquin does not deserve a lame death is pretty funny, considering that your argument appears to be "Tarquin deserves to die in a degrading fashion because I don't like him because he's evil."

However, like the last few times I've shot your logic full of holes, I imagine this post will be ignored.

[WeLoveFireballs]

Thank you for stating what I could not think of G-man!

[G-Man Graves]

Thank you for stating what I could not think of G-man!

Eh, nobody can think of everything at once. Props to you as well.

[Gift Jeraff]

Killed by a random unnamed character, at least 10 years after being taken down from the throne by Elan, who refused to kill him. That will give enough time for Tarquin to be forgotten by everyone.

No, I don't hate him, he is one of the most awesome characters I've ever seem, but he is evil, he deserves to be punished in a way that doesn't make him happy. And since he wants to become a legend, a good punishement is NOT to become a legend.
The problem with this is that he expected to be killed by some random peasant schmuck (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0763.html) before Elan entered the picture. Which is why I think, so far, the best way for him to die would be either by Xykon (a wake-up call that he is not the main villain plus a good way to put his power into perspective), by Nale (for reasons outlined in the second post), or by banana peel.

Now, if he starts to show some redeemable qualities (Hey, weirder things have happened. Like, say, the return of Zz'dtri.) then I think he can get a dramatic death, probably going "I'm...so...proud of you, mah boi." to Elan. (Actually, I can see him being proud if Nale kills him, since he trained him in villainy.)

[Kish]

I hold the latter viewpoint. Counterarguement?
See, no. You need to offer an argument if you want a counterargument. :smalltongue: I, obviously, do not hold the latter viewpoint. Tarquin is not a badly done character, in that he's exactly what Rich wants him to be and conveys a genuine sense of horror (see, for example, the slaves being burned alive, or the flashback to the woman he was torturing to force her to marry him), but he shows no sign of more depth than Rich's other creations Xykon and Nale.

Filtering out the other exchanges for a moment and looking just at the exchange between you and me, it went like this:

You: Not every character deserves to be humiliated. Tarquin is a very popular character.
Me: I don't know that Tarquin is a very popular character; he has a few extremely vocal supporters [and, I didn't spell out, an at least comparable number of detractors]. I do know that he's horrifically evil.

You offered one argument: that Tarquin is very popular. I gave a counterargument to that. Feel free to offer more arguments, if you want.

[Tazar]

See, no. You need to offer an argument if you want a counterargument. :smalltongue: I, obviously, do not hold the latter viewpoint. Tarquin is not a badly done character, in that he's exactly what Rich wants him to be and conveys a genuine sense of horror (see, for example, the slaves being burned alive, or the flashback to the woman he was torturing to force her to marry him), but he shows no sign of more depth than Rich's other creations Xykon and Nale.

So you don't consider his juxtaposition of evil powerlust combined with genuine love, care, and affection for his son to be character depth?

That's certainly more depth than Nale has ever possessed. Nale's a two-dimensional, mustache-twirling villain. Tarquin is not.

[WeLoveFireballs]

Tarquin is a compelling character. He forces Elan to make decisions he is not prepared to make. He loves Tarquin for sharing his interests, even to a greater extent than he does. But Tarquin is an even more vile evil than Nale. This will, to some extent, force Elan to grow up, have character growth and such.

Meanwhile Tarquin has created one of the most brilliant and original villan plans of ALL TIME. He does not have designs on a mere kingdom or even planet. He has designs on the hearts and minds of people everywhere for CENTURIES to come. He has a more original plan than Xykon (take over the world) or even Redcloak (Let my people go). He is the king of drama.

I ask for the second time: counterarguement? Also when you said "endeavor to engage" that kinda assumes that you will be putting forth an arguement rather than waiting for someone to start it. Please be more clear in the future. Also I notice you have not yet clarified how Tazar misrepresented you. I too do not understand any error he made. Of course I shall now be blown off ,ignored or selectively responded to.

Feel free to disprove that last statement of mine. I would much appreciate being wrong about it.

[Kish]

Tarquin is a compelling character. He forces Elan to make decisions he is not prepared to make. He loves Tarquin for sharing his interests, even to a greater extent than he does. But Tarquin is an even more vile evil than Nale.

Erm...no. All evidence points to "Elan hates Tarquin for being pure evil, and has hated him without ambivalence ever since he realized Tarquin is evil." He constructed a simple puzzle which he views as brilliant and which poor, stupid Elan is unable to see through, although dozens of people on the forum have already pointed out the easy escape (kill Tarquin and either put about a tale that casts him as the Empress of Blood's buffoonish court jester, or just don't mention him at all). And Tarquin, himself, is unable to see the easy solution to his puzzle--likely because, in the failure to understand the concept of morality he views as being superior to it, he doesn't realize that Elan doesn't want to "make a grand story" with him.


Meanwhile Tarquin has created one of the most brilliant and original villan plans of ALL TIME.

Really, caps lock doesn't help. :smalltongue: Villains who want to be legends are not that uncommon. Xykon, before he became a lich, wanted the same thing, actually: He expected to be dead fairly soon and wanted his legacy to be "ruled the whole damn world."

[WeLoveFireballs]

And yet Tarquin is a villain unlike any other. He does not seek to rule unopposed. He is not trying to win. He is trying to create the most compelling epic ever told. The end is the same but the means justify it all. If you are trying to say he is "just another villain" then by all means point out any other similarity to steriotypical villains.

P.S. What would you reccomend for emphasis then? Bold maybe italic? :smalltongue:

[Gift Jeraff]

He does not seek to rule unopposed. He is not trying to win.
I think it's a little too early to say exactly what Tarquin's plan is. We know there's supposed to be another contender for the Gates introduced in this book, and Tarquin knows something about Girard.

Maybe he does not want to rule unopposed until his power extends beyond pulling political strings.

[Kish]

And yet Tarquin is a villain unlike any other. He does not seek to rule unopposed. He is not trying to win. He is trying to create the most compelling epic ever told. The end is the same but the means justify it all. If you are trying to say he is "just another villain" then by all means point out any other similarity to steriotypical villains.

P.S. What would you reccomend for emphasis then? Bold maybe italic? :smalltongue:
I would recommend you not try to emphasize claims that can't be supported.

He isn't "trying to create the most compelling epic ever told," that is not indicated in the comic at all. Rather, he's trying to hang on as long as he can, ruling in a fashion that suits his brutal and depraved personality, making himself as hard to unseat as possible. Looking through the OotS's lack of fourth wall, he accepts that he's a villain (though he mistakenly believes himself to be the main villain) and that therefore he will probably lose in the end; how he will react when he's actually dying remains to be seen. His being able to reason based on the knowledge that he's a character in a work of fiction no more makes him incredibly brilliant than Xykon's comment that he has to save his A-list material for the PCs makes him incredibly brilliant.

[WeLoveFireballs]

If he is just trying to "Hang On" why does he not kill Elan immediately? Why did he let him go? Why did he offer to give him everything he ask and then a ring of regeneration on top of it?

[WeLoveFireballs]

In fact... here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0763.html) he even says it. "Best story ever!" Can't be much more clear.

[Kish]

If he is just trying to "Hang On" why does he not kill Elan immediately? Why did he let him go? Why did he offer to give him everything he ask and then a ring of regeneration on top of it?
You're right, if he's just trying to hang on, why doesn't he kill the son who demonstrably isn't a threat to him at the moment? Especially considering that if he could do so and said son wasn't resurrected, it would prove that said son was never the hero of the story and thus would never have become a real threat to him? He does love Elan--or comes as close as he's capable of to loving Elan. And, again, the lack of fourth wall lets him realize that he's the villain and villains are usually defeated.

He said that he's trying to consolidate his hold on the continent. He told Elan "If I win, I'm a king. If I lose, I'm a legend," and, "Somewhere between 'villain of the week' and 'good triumphs over evil,' there's a sweet spot where guys like me get to rule the roost for years." Even taking his word for how he'll react when he loses to Elan, he didn't say he particularly wanted to lose. You're not even trusting everything he says, you're parsing his words for only the parts that make him fit the super-cool picture you're painting.

[Gift Jeraff]

In fact... here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0763.html) he even says it. "Best story ever told" Can't be much more clear.
Except that's not his plan. It's a bonus that became a possibility only when Elan entered the picture.

His plan, as far as we know, is to rule comfortably as long as possible.

[WeLoveFireballs]

Ok, perhaps not "plan all along" but certainly new plan. He knows he will be unseated and so he wants it to be a great epic of father vs son.

[G-Man Graves]

(kill Tarquin and either put about a tale that casts him as the Empress of Blood's buffoonish court jester, or just don't mention him at all).

This plan is seriously moronic. Even if Elan could kill Tarquin (which he can't (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0761.html)), he couldn't just say "Hahaha, he was actually a court jester the whole time. Namely because of little details like the big ass statue of him as a general. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0750.html) Or the fact that there are thousands of citizens that regularly see him fulfill the role of a major public figure (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0776.html). But hey, I guess when you replace the details of the comic with ones that are more to your personal liking, all sorts of things are possible.

[Kish]

Ok, perhaps not "plan all along" but certainly new plan. He knows he will be unseated and so he wants it to be a great epic of father vs son.
So, like the mortal Xykon, he wants a legacy that everyone will remember him for. With or without caps, hardly one of the most brilliant and original plans of all time.

[Gift Jeraff]

Even if Elan could kill Tarquin (which he can't (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0761.html))
Who said Elan has to do it alone?

[G-Man Graves]

Who said Elan has to do it alone?

Who says Tarquin has to be alone? He has a party of his own. Plus, you know. An army.

[Gift Jeraff]

Who says Tarquin has to be alone? He has a party of his own. Plus, you know. An army.
Fair enough. But if, say, they did Kish's plan during the parade, they could have easily made it "Elan + Haley + V vs. Tarquin in those staircases where Amun-Zora ambushed him while Durkon distracts Malack."

[WeLoveFireballs]

So, like the mortal Xykon, he wants a legacy that everyone will remember him for. With or without caps, hardly one of the most brilliant and original plans of all time.

Ah but here is what makes him an original villain: When Xykon sees his doom aproaching he will run and hide, try to fight back in a futile effort or simply try to kill everyone in his frustration. Tarquin however will announce it to the masses, find a way to draw everyone to watch his epic battle and immortalize himself.

[Kish]

Ah but here is what makes him an original villain: When Xykon sees his doom aproaching he will run and hide, try to fight back in a futile effort or simply try to kill everyone in his frustration. Tarquin however will announce it to the masses, find a way to draw everyone to watch his epic battle and immortalize himself.
...

...no. First, you really need to quit making stuff up and asserting it as though it was in the comic.

Then, Tarquin made it plain: If he wins, he gets to be a king, if he loses, he gets to be a legend, and he's not taking a fall. If, as he now expects, a higher level Elan comes for him when he dominates the entire continent, he plans on fighting to the last.

[WeLoveFireballs]

Certainly he would fight he made that clear but could you imagine him running? Any other villain would but he wouldn't. He made it clear he isn't taking a fall for Elan and he knows "one rebel against an empire" makes a great story.

EDIT: and as a repeat of an earlier question: what steriotypical traits has Tarquin shown? (besides wanting to be a legend)

And if it wasn't clear that earlier post was pure extrapolation based on what I know of their characters.

[G-Man Graves]

Fair enough. But if, say, they did Kish's plan during the parade, they could have easily made it "Elan + Haley + V vs. Tarquin in those staircases where Amun-Zora ambushed him while Durkon distracts Malack."

Moot point, considering that at that point Elan didn't really consider his dad a villain. Even Haley had been forced to admit her suspicion was largely baseless.

[Kish]

Certainly he would fight he made that clear but could you imagine him running? Any other villain would but he wouldn't. He made it clear he isn't taking a fall for Elan and he knows "one rebel against an empire" makes a great story.

If you think "being unwilling to run" makes a villain unique, I don't know what you've been reading.



EDIT: and as a repeat of an earlier question: what steriotypical traits has Tarquin shown? (besides wanting to be a legend)
He's as petty as his son Nale, given to taking horrible revenge for quasi-imagined slights. Even when he claims to love someone (Elan, Elan's mother), he doesn't understand that they're not messed up in exactly the same way he is.

Is that what you're looking for? Looking at your question...it's looking like you're treating "stereotypical" and "most unique of ALL TIME" as the only two options. He's really a very cliched evil overlord, subtype Eminence Gris, but even if he didn't play into all the cliches he does, the fact that you think he's as cool as he thinks he is would still be kind of odd.

[Gift Jeraff]

Moot point, considering that at that point Elan didn't really consider his dad a villain. Even Haley had been forced to admit her suspicion was largely baseless.
I meant after the big reveal, instead of going to rescue Ian.

Try to get V's attention, formulate a plan, get Elan to lure Tarquin back into the stairwell, Haley and V ambush him, presto. Seems fairly reasonable. (EDIT: Assuming Tarquin is the same level as Elan or only slightly higher and has no casting capabilities. If not, then yeah, the plan falls apart.)

[veti]

Tarquin is an easily recognisable stereotype. His claim to "depth" seems to be, basically, that he's slightly more genre-savvy than most "evil chancellor" types. Oh, and he subverts the idea that evil sides against good, which would be more interesting if that were a "rule" that had ever been applied in this comic.

What makes him really interesting is his interaction with the genuinely deep character of Elan. Elan has tremendous depths, but he only shows them when something within the story genuinely justifies it. Whereas Tarquin spends all his time talking about how deep and cunning he is, which makes him really pretty superficial.

[WeLoveFireballs]

If you think "being unwilling to run" makes a villain unique, I don't know what you've been reading.


He's as petty as his son Nale, given to taking horrible revenge for quasi-imagined slights. Even when he claims to love someone (Elan, Elan's mother), he doesn't understand that they're not messed up in exactly the same way he is.

Is that what you're looking for? Looking at your question...it's looking like you're treating "stereotypical" and "most unique of ALL TIME" as the only two options. He's really a very cliched evil overlord, subtype Eminence Gris, but even if he didn't play into all the cliches he does, the fact that you think he's as cool as he thinks he is would still be kind of odd.

It's not the fact he won't run it's that he wins either way in his view and that's why he won't run. How many other villains think that?

Also if he is so petty why didn't he kill the bounty hunters? They clearly slighted him.

Also I really need to know YOUR views here. So far your vague statements only say:
He's twisted (like most villains)
He's evil (like most villains)
He's horrible (like most villains)
He should die for this. You don't have ANY unique views here. As far as I can see you think he is steriotypical. Of course there is middle ground, it just looks like the main two people involved here (you and me) hold those two views. Please name a unique quality that you think Tarquin has or I cannot have a discussion with you on this topic.

[Tazar]

...

...no. First, you really need to quit making stuff up and asserting it as though it was in the comic.

Then, Tarquin made it plain: If he wins, he gets to be a king, if he loses, he gets to be a legend, and he's not taking a fall. If, as he now expects, a higher level Elan comes for him when he dominates the entire continent, he plans on fighting to the last.

Tarquin told Elan that he wants his death to be dramatic as possible. Stating that he'll seek to make a spectacle out of it isn't unfounded assertion, it's a logical extension of his previous behavior. In fact, that's exactly what he's doing now; priming Elan for an epic, dramatic showdown.
Tarquin has explicitly stated that, confronted with death, he won't run but instead will try to die in as dramatic a fashion as possible, in order to ensure his name reverberates throughout the ages.

On the other hand, as evidenced by Soon revealing he knew about Xykon's weakness and the lich's subsequent panicky rout, Xykon will indeed flee from a fight where he thinks he cannot win.
So, in fact, I think you're in the wrong here in attacking Fireballs; everything he said is backed up by the comic.
You seriously need to dial down the passive-aggressiveness. Please take a deep breath.

I also have to ask you again, do you like any villains, in anything? Your repeated lashing out against people for liking a "vile, disgusting" character would seem to suggest no.
Do you similarly fail to comprehend why Thog and Belkar, both unapologetically enthusiastic mass murderers, have quite large fanbases? How about the Joker and Darth Vader? Darth Vader has murdered children and he's one of the most recognizable and popular villains there is.

Using your logic, it's incomprehensible that these fanbases exist, because these villains are all "vile and disgusting".
But yet, they have massive amounts of fans.



Tarquin is an easily recognisable stereotype. His claim to "depth" seems to be, basically, that he's slightly more genre-savvy than most "evil chancellor" types. Oh, and he subverts the idea that evil sides against good, which would be more interesting if that were a "rule" that had ever been applied in this comic.

What makes him really interesting is his interaction with the genuinely deep character of Elan. Elan has tremendous depths, but he only shows them when something within the story genuinely justifies it. Whereas Tarquin spends all his time talking about how deep and cunning he is, which makes him really pretty superficial.

I'd disagree; Tarquin's depth comes from his personal relationship with Elan.

[Bedinsis]

Also if he is so petty why didn't he kill the bounty hunters? They clearly slighted him.


Uh, he made Kilkil lose their paperwork, thereby granting them a death sentence within a few weeks, he furthermore made them fight eachother, a punishment some would consider worse than simply being killed (especially if you believe the survivor's gonna die within a few weeks anyway).

[Leolo]

After the order finds out in the current story arc that sabine has abandoned nale, nale switch sides and replaces the dead belkar.

After this, nale and elan save the world and face tarquin together. :smallsmile:

Not really. ^^

[Kish]

It's not the fact he won't run it's that he wins either way in his view and that's why he won't run. How many other villains think that?

That's what he told Elan. Whether he'll actually stick to it, we may, or may not, see.


Also if he is so petty why didn't he kill the bounty hunters? They clearly slighted him.

Bedinsis addressed this. See, this is why I say that you're editing the character in the comic heavily before making claims about him. Why didn't he do one of the primary defining things he's done so far, attempt to cause the bounty hunters a horrible death because Gannji mistakenly believed Tarquin wouldn't mind Gannji asking for money in a Star Wars humorous way? Why, I can't imagine why he didn't do this thing that he did. That he failed and they got away is not a counterargument to "he's incredibly petty"; it is a counterargument to "he's incredibly brilliant and his plans always work." In fact, he was baffled that Elan didn't want the bounty hunters tortured to death because they got the better of Elan once, so I'm shaking my head in disbelief that you're claiming he's not incredibly petty.


Also I really need to know YOUR views here.

Tarquin is a side villain, of approximately the same extreme level of evil as his son Nale and the main villain Xykon. The only redeeming feature he has is his "love" for his son Elan, and even that is twisted to the point where calling it a redeeming feature at all is questionable. He's created a series of stereotypically evil kingdoms, whether because that's what's required for him to live the way he wants to, or because he wouldn't know how to rule anything less horrible. His plan to be a legend may actually be self-defeating (hm, reminds me of Nale again) if it ends with anything but "an epic-level bard defeats Tarquin and puts about exactly the version of Tarquin's plot that Tarquin wants," since he's posing as the humble servant of a series of brutal dictators, and if the Empire of Blood fell right now and Elan never said anything, most people would consider "and they killed the general too" a footnote in the account of the defeat of the Empress of Blood. Of course, Tarquin is also given to assuming people will do what he wants, even when they have every reason to do the exact opposite.

He is clearly able to outwit Elan. For his next trick, he should arm-wrestle Vaarsuvius (no spells allowed). Right now, he has the honor of being the most overrated villain in OotS history. People have been describing him as something close to a god, making all sorts of assertions on scanty, nonexistent, or contradictory evidence, ever since he was introduced; he's kind of like Girard that way, actually.


Please name a unique quality that you think Tarquin has or I cannot have a discussion with you on this topic.
Unique? That's quite a tall order. I'm not sure the Tarquin in the comic, as opposed to the one you're been describing, has any qualities that are even unique among OotS characters--everything I can point to, or that you've yet pointed to in the actual comic, is "like Xykon," "like Elan," or "like Nale."

[ThePhantasm]

He is clearly able to outwit Elan. For his next trick, he should arm-wrestle Vaarsuvius (no spells allowed).

To be fair, Kish, he has also apparently outwitted Nale, not to mention Amon-Zora and entire cities of people. Granted, on each of these counts he has had the aid of his buddies, but apparently the whole kingdom-conquer-swap idea (for lack of a better term) was his idea, and it has worked out pretty well so far. I admit that he is a pretty overrated villain, and his drama-based plans probably won't work as well, as you've noted.

Oddly, the fact that this forum seems to think he is such a badass villain speaks to the success of his plan in this one area of becoming a "legend," despite the fact that he hasn't done anything legendary yet, really. Whether he will remain a legend in the minds of forumgoers after his plans come crashing down is another story.

I'd still like to see him outwit Nale some more though.

[G-Man Graves]

Unique? That's quite a tall order. I'm not sure the Tarquin in the comic, as opposed to the one you're been describing, has any qualities that are even unique among OotS characters--everything I can point to, or that you've yet pointed to in the actual comic, is "like Xykon," "like Elan," or "like Nale."

Well, I have some pretty pro advice in that regard. I mean, you're probably going to ignore it, because let's be honest, it doesn't support your view. I'll put it in spoilers, so that the shock doesn't kill everyone.

There's no such thing as an original character. All possible character archetypes have already been written about.

Le gasp!

[WeLoveFireballs]

That's what he told Elan. Whether he'll actually stick to it, we may, or may not, see.

Ok, now you are the one making assumptions.


Bedinsis addressed this. See, this is why I say that you're editing the character in the comic heavily before making claims about him. Why didn't he do one of the primary defining things he's done so far, attempt to cause the bounty hunters a horrible death because Gannji mistakenly believed Tarquin wouldn't mind Gannji asking for money in a Star Wars humorous way? Why, I can't imagine why he didn't do this thing that he did. That he failed and they got away is not a counterargument to "he's incredibly petty"; it is a counterargument to "he's incredibly brilliant and his plans always work." In fact, he was baffled that Elan didn't want the bounty hunters tortured to death because they got the better of Elan once, so I'm shaking my head in disbelief that you're claiming he's not incredibly petty.

They flew away from his games and threw a spear at his head. He easily could have sent someone after them and kill them without anyone watching the games ever knowing but he didn't.


Tarquin is a side villain, of approximately the same extreme level of evil as his son Nale and the main villain Xykon. The only redeeming feature he has is his "love" for his son Elan, and even that is twisted to the point where calling it a redeeming feature at all is questionable. He's created a series of stereotypically evil kingdoms, whether because that's what's required for him to live the way he wants to, or because he wouldn't know how to rule anything less horrible. His plan to be a legend may actually be self-defeating (hm, reminds me of Nale again) if it ends with anything but "an epic-level bard defeats Tarquin and puts about exactly the version of Tarquin's plot that Tarquin wants," since he's posing as the humble servant of a series of brutal dictators, and if the Empire of Blood fell right now and Elan never said anything, most people would consider "and they killed the general too" a footnote in the account of the defeat of the Empress of Blood. Of course, Tarquin is also given to assuming people will do what he wants, even when they have every reason to do the exact opposite.

Why do you keep on mentioning the evil part? We ALL know he's evil. But as Tarquis says "they always like the villains more anyway". Xykon's plan relied on the heroes falling for reverse psycology and not realizing it was a blatant attempt to trick them. Nale relied on the heroes explicitly helping him activate the sigils. Darth Vader needed luke to come to him. Many plans rely on the heroes doing what the villain wants.



He is clearly able to outwit Elan. For his next trick, he should arm-wrestle Vaarsuvius (no spells allowed). Right now, he has the honor of being the most overrated villain in OotS history. People have been describing him as something close to a god, making all sorts of assertions on scanty, nonexistent, or contradictory evidence, ever since he was introduced; he's kind of like Girard that way, actually.

Unique? That's quite a tall order. I'm not sure the Tarquin in the comic, as opposed to the one you're been describing, has any qualities that are even unique among OotS characters--everything I can point to, or that you've yet pointed to in the actual comic, is "like Xykon," "like Elan," or "like Nale."

If I may quote G-man here:
"There's no such thing as an original character. All possible character archetypes have already been written about. "
And yet he is still different than other characters. His views on alignment, the means of accomplishing his plan (dying) I might be able to come up with others.

[Kish]

Ok, now you are the one making assumptions.

Oh? What's an assumption there? That he told Elan he won't be upset if he dies? That we may or may not see if he'll stick to it? That Tarquin is not the omniscient narrator?

You're misusing the word "assumption." As far as I can tell, you're using the word "assumption" to mean "rejection of the assumption I want to make."


They flew away from his games and threw a spear at his head. He easily could have sent someone after them and kill them without anyone watching the games ever knowing but he didn't.

Yes, with the established flying monkeys he has. Oh wait.

Now, that's an assumption. As far as I can tell, a subcategory of your "he's brilliant and invincible and can't possibly have failed to do something he attempted to do" assumption.


Why do you keep on mentioning the evil part? We ALL know he's evil.

Given that at least one person in this thread said he's "sort of" evil, this claim is functionally insupportable. However, I mentioned the evil part because you asked me what I think about Tarquin, and "he's really evil" is his most prominent feature. I get that you wanted a different answer, but you shouldn't ask a question and then complain about the answer.


But as Tarquis says "they always like the villains more anyway".

:smallsigh: Do I seem like I like the villains more? Do you really feel confident enough to assert that a majority of readers like the villains more? Or do Tarquin's assertions override any need for evidence because he's just that cool?


If I may quote G-man here:

You would make better arguments if you wrote them yourself and quoted other people less. In particular, you don't seem to realize that that quote doesn't provide compelling support for your repeated assertions that Tarquin has one of the most brilliant and original plans of ALL TIME.


And yet he is still different than other characters. His views on alignment

"There is no good or evil, only power and those too afraid to use it" is completely unique to Tarquin, yes.

Oh wait.

, the means of accomplishing his plan (dying)
...

Look, will you please quit acting as though Tarquin's plan began and ended with the "this is why I don't lose even if I lose" line he gave Elan? If he's completely telling the truth there--which you should not assume, much less expect anyone else to join you in assuming--then dying and counting on Elan to cooperate with the plan Tarquin spelled out to him is Tarquin's very last backup plan. Nowhere near being his principle plan.

"The means of accomplishing his plan" is playing off kingdoms in this area against each other while he and his party conquer them all.

[WeLoveFireballs]

Yes, with the established flying monkeys he has. Oh wait.

Now, that's an assumption. As far as I can tell, a subcategory of your "he's brilliant and invincible and can't possibly have failed to do something he attempted to do" assumption.

Is it unclear that he has the resources of 3-4 high level characters who influence every nation on the continent? But of course it would be petty to call in his chips for something so small, isn't it.

Also why would he need monkeys, he's got kobalds.


Given that at least one person in this thread said he's "sort of" evil, this claim is functionally insupportable. However, I mentioned the evil part because you asked me what I think about Tarquin, and "he's really evil" is his most prominent feature. I get that you wanted a different answer, but you shouldn't ask a question and then complain about the answer.

So you do think he is steriotypical? If the evil part is the main feature in your mind then seems like it.


:smallsigh: Do I seem like I like the villains more? Do you really feel confident enough to assert that a majority of readers like the villains more? Or do Tarquin's assertions override any need for evidence because he's just that cool?

Has Darth Vader and the joker not been pointed out yet?


You would make better arguments if you wrote them yourself and quoted other people less. Or possibly if you quoted Tarquin less selectively.

Perhaps we should be PMing this discussion. The point of fourms is to get other peoples input in discussions.


Look, will you please quit acting as though Tarquin's plan began and ended with the "this is why I don't lose even if I lose" line he gave Elan? If he's completely telling the truth there--which you should not assume, much less expect anyone else to join you in assuming--then dying and counting on Elan to cooperate with the plan Tarquin spelled out to him is Tarquin's very last backup plan. Nowhere near being his principle plan.

"The means of accomplishing his plan" is playing off kingdoms in this area against each other while he and his party conquer them all.

Fine. His contigency plan is original. And his main plan is far better than all the other villains on this continent apparently.

[Kish]

Is it unclear that he has the resources of 3-4 high level characters who influence every nation on the continent? But of course it would be petty to call in his chips for something so small, isn't it.
Not only are you assuming that someone in his party could chase Gannji and Enor down by some unspecified method, you're assuming he's not going to ask the rest of his party to do so the next time he sees them. Is there any point to this? You're ignoring everything I say that you can't respond to with some variation on asserting Tarquin's brilliance and omnipotence.


Also why would he need monkeys, he's got kobalds.

Yes, I'm sure Kilkil can totally fly faster than Enor and would totally live longer than a few seconds if he somehow actually caught him.


Has Darth Vader and the joker not been pointed out yet?

Answer the question, please.

Incidentally, I do believe that's the first time I've ever seen anyone even imply that the Joker is a more popular character than Batman.


Fine. His contigency plan is original. And his main plan is far better than all the other villains on this continent apparently.
All 0 of the we've-seen-them ones who aren't part of his party. Assuming none of them (in or out of his party) have a plan which we haven't discovered yet. So, yes, his plan is the most brilliant plan ever to have won a contest in which no one else was contending.

[Tazar]

Incidentally, I do believe that's the first time I've ever seen anyone even imply that the Joker is a more popular character than Batman.


This is a rather inane statement. First of all, it's utterly pointless seeing as regardless of who is more popular, they are both extremely popular characters. You're using a cheap attempt at misdirection to hide the fact that it's a legitimate point which, in four pages of thread, you have had no rebuttal for.

Second, keep in mind that it was Heath Ledger's "vile, disgusting" Joker, not Batman, who got an Oscar. :smallwink:

Of course, I expect you to gloss over this, since you seem to be entirely ignoring my and G-Man's posts for some reason which you have yet to explain.

It's also quite rich of you to demand that he answer your questions when you have consistently ignored those of G-Man and myself.

[harmsc12]

Hey you two, play nice.

Tarquin is a dismissive jackass. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0759.html)

He really doesn't care about Elan as a person. He just wants things to go his way. An acceptable fate would be for the Empress of Blood to find out about Tarquin's scheme.

[ThePhantasm]

Second, keep in mind that it was Heath Ledger's "vile, disgusting" Joker, not Batman, who got an Oscar. :smallwink:

I did not know that Oscars were indicators of character popularity. Here I thought it had something to do with acting.

[harmsc12]

Can we please stop derailing the thread? I want to read about clever ideas for what should happen to Tarquin, not a flame war about his popularity or lack thereof. Do I need to reach through the tubes and slap you both?

[G-Man Graves]

Can we please stop derailing the thread? I want to read about clever ideas for what should happen to Tarquin, not a flame war about his popularity or lack thereof. Do I need to reach through the tubes and slap you both?

Hey, it's hardly our fault that Kish found it easier to add Tazar and myself to his ignore lists than to come up with legitamite responses to all the way's we've proven him wrong and willing to replace actual things from the comic with facts of his own. Which is frankly inane.

[harmsc12]

Roll a will save so you can stop responding to him, then. That's something you can control.

[G-Man Graves]

Roll a will save so you can stop responding to him, then. That's something you can control.

If I do that then the terrorists win.

[ricorum]

I'd like to see him get stabbed by Nale (the same way he backstabbed Elan back in the beginning, for dramatic purposes), and in his final moments, realize that his sole purpose in existence was to act as the tough guy who gets shamelessly killed just to show how much tougher another villain has become. (Not to mention, a villain he himself rejected, insulted, and ultimately created.)

Wow. That's perfect.

[BlackestOfMages]

@ Tazar, G-Man and ThePhantasm:
not to sound too rude, but could you please start a seperate thread to discuss this, or ignore one another in this one. Because the two of you have go so far off topic I can hardly see what this thread was about without looking at the title.

{{scrubbed}}

back to the point of the thread...
I think that Tarquins end should be simple: He'll live, but he'll be forgoten, completly. this, I think, would hurt more than the nice dramatic endin other peoples gave him.

though the taken out by Nale thing would be great too

[ThePhantasm]

Hey, it actually just occurred to me that the best way for Tarquin to go down would be to be killed by a lesser villain. I'm thinking maybe one of the people in his own little Order. They continue the plan but, having betrayed Tarquin, are now the one's who get the power and glory, while Tarquin himself is forgotten to the ages. Perhaps Tarquin's trust in his fellows is misplaced. . .

[G-Man Graves]

{{scrubbed}}
back to the point of the thread...
I think that Tarquins end should be simple: He'll live, but he'll be forgoten, completly. this, I think, would hurt more than the nice dramatic endin other peoples gave him.

though the taken out by Nale thing would be great too
{{scrubbed}}

In any case, I'm in the "Several D6 of sneak attack damage from Nale" camp.

[skim172]

I've endorsed this idea before, but:

Hostilities erupt on the western continent - maybe instigated by the Order, perhaps the arrival of Xykon and co. or possibly other dynamics at play (Azurites? Elves?) - hostilities that disrupt the norms of the ordinary political feuding Tarquin's posse has been overseeing.

Pitting small, clueless, single-minded, and interchangeable polities against each other for personal gain is one thing. Large-scale conflict for more complicated stakes across multiple fronts and interests is entirely another and tears events out of Tarquin's controlling hands. For the first time in a long time, Tarquin is combating a direct threat to his personal power. And he's losing.

Through prolonged attrition and occasional major loss, Tarquin's network of power is slowly chipped away. Tactical defeats on the battlefield are exclamations to a continuing pattern of slow strategic decay. And the legacy and reputation Tarq has built over decades becomes increasingly meaningless in the face of these events. Glory and legend are replaced by frustration and a growing sense of irrelevance. Who cares about the grandeur of the Empire if the universe is about to unravel? He's the general of a glorious empire and organizer of a vast political conspiracy that can do nothing to alter or slow down the forces at work in its territory. And when he does try to interfere, he ends up getting his a-- handed to him.

In time, he has nothing. The warring forces have destroyed his cities, his armies, his sources of power, all as a side effect of their real intentions, which have nothing to do with him. And he's at their mercy. If they want him, they can take him.

At the last, facing his inevitable destruction, he chooses to take his own life, clinging to the myth that he's going out in a blaze of honor and glory, stealing the satisfaction from his enemies. But in fact, no one mourns him, no one celebrates his death. Because he simply doesn't matter.

That's one way to crush a legend.

[Deliverance]

The Order succeeds, taking losses. Elan and Haley retire to the eastern continent to help retake and rebuild Azure City, with an eye to returning to Tarquin's empire and freeing it with the help of the bluebeards and the elves at a later date. This takes years, but finally they are ready and moving.

MEANWHILE, in Tarquin's empire (whatever it is named at that time), Tarquin has been living like a king for years and is feeling his age. When his agents report that Elan is finally moving against him, having rallied the forces of the good and the neutral, he feels immense pride in his son and prepares for the one on one showdown. No expense to be spared in forming his legend! He immediately triples the crushing oppression in the empire to make sure the invaders will get the right impression and to fund the western continent's largest army ever to give them something to fight while Elan sneaks through the lines to defeat the tyrant.

And as Elan and Tarquin are thus preparing for their rendezvous with destiny, while armies march for a confrontation larger than any seen in history, an unknown peasant arrives in Tarquin's capital with a sword, manages to trick his way past the guards, and assassinates Tarquin.

With his dying breath Tarquin hisses... You fool! You should have been my son!

Arriving upon the scene a few minutes later, Elan recognizes the narrative imperative of the situation and, ascertaining that the peasant is an orphan who was brought up by a blacksmith, hails the unknown peasant king.

So the peasant is made king, the armies stand down, link arms, and sing kumbayah rather than fight, and Elan becomes court bard. End of happy story. :smallsmile: