two hands or sword and shield?

[big teej]

what it says on the tin.

when you roll up a melee, do you PREFER to use a single two handed weapon? or a weapon and a shield?

why?

for me, it depends on the concept.
for instance, a my dwarves almost always carry shields as opposed to a 2h weapon.

Heavily armored tall-folk have a fairly even spread of 2h vs sword and shield.

etc..

what about you?
please explain the reasoning behind your preference.

[Thurbane]

In 90% of cases, I'll go with the two-hander. As a melee type, you really need that damage boost - especially with power Attack involved. At very low levels, though, 2 places of AC can make a difference between life or death...but once you get past those perilously low HP, it becomes increasingly irrelevant.

Shield is an option for some specialized builds, or when you abosultely, postively need the AC, but in general, the damage boost from two-handing outweighs the 1 or 2 AC places a shield offers.

Once you have enough cash for the Animated enchantment, then it's another story...

[Dienekes]

Am I playing a concept?
Sword and Shield. To me nothing is as cool as a shield and sword fighter. I just like the aesthetic and have always been a fan on infantry formations in which a shield plays a large role. So yeah, if I play with a group in which I can get away with being completely unoptimized and still be useful, sword and shield all the way.

Am I trying to keep up with the other players?
Two-hand. It's just, a lot, better. Damage it can do is amazing.

[TroubleBrewing]

Two hander, unless I'm building specifically towards a shield fighter.

[Tvtyrant]

Since we allow 1 handed spears...Shields.

[Hiro Protagonest]

Since we allow 1 handed spears...Shields.

Yeah, historically, hoplites used 10-foot spears one-handed, I have no idea why it's two-handed only. Though in Pathfinder, there is the one fighter variant, the phalanx fighter, which let's you use polearms one-handed.

[Sucrose]

I just about always work with two-handing, as I feel that it fits a wider range of character concepts.

Within the world of Dungeons and Dragons, I think shields only really make sense for heavy infantry who never have to deal in monster-hunting. Guardsmen who apprehend criminals, maybe.

Monster hunters are unlikely to have use for a shield that takes up a hand, as reach weapons protect them better, and two-handers allow them to deal damage more efficiently, whereas a shield can't really be expected to soak most of a powerful enemy's blow, and does nothing against spells without extensive training (Shield Ward) or magic.

Scouts try to avoid being encumbered, and non-military types probably only have hunting weapons, like longspears and bows.

Since it's rare that I play a military type that didn't have to at least dabble in monster fighting, I generally go two-handed.

[Greenish]

Sword'n'board is cool, and historically very effective, but hey, you can afford full plate pretty early, and holding a shield when you have good solid plate armour would just look silly.

[Legend]

Whatever fits the concept. Though lately its been mostly two-handed weapons.

[Cisturn]

Two handed with an animated tower shield as soon as i can get it

[Hirax]

I only use shields when putting enchantments on armor becomes prohibitively expensive, in which case if I'm feeling cheap I'll just strap a buckler to my forearm and take the -1 to attacks in exchange for whatever enchantment I'm getting from the buckler. A couple campaigns ago I had +4 soulfire armor (immunity to death effects and negative energy) a +1 buckler of heavy fortification, while wielding a spiked chain. Plus a shield gives you room for more augment crystals.

[Koury]

Random idea right off the top of my head:

Shields add BAB to AC (does not apply to Animated shields) and half BAB to touch AC.

Fighter 20 weilding a shield in combat would have 10 Base, 8(+5) Armor, 20(+5) Shield, 1 Dex, +misc (Haste, rings, natural, etc)

Thoughts? Would you think about using shield then? Would you ALWAYS use shields then? Maybe +half BAB?

[big teej]

Random idea right off the top of my head:

Shields add BAB to AC (does not apply to Animated shields) and half BAB to touch AC.

Fighter 20 weilding a shield in combat would have 10 Base, 8(+5) Armor, 20(+5) Shield, 1 Dex, +misc (Haste, rings, natural, etc)

Thoughts? Would you think about using shield then? Would you ALWAYS use shields then? Maybe +half BAB?

wut? :smallconfused:

where is this written down?
because unless I've gone completely insane, a shield has a fixed + x to AC
+ 1 for bucklers and dastana
+ 1 for light shields
+ 2 for heavy shields
+ 3 for extreme shields
+ 4 for tower shields.

[Boci]

wut? :smallconfused:

where is this written down?
because unless I've gone completely insane, a shield has a fixed + x to AC
+ 1 for bucklers and dastana
+ 1 for light shields
+ 2 for heavy shields
+ 3 for extreme shields
+ 4 for tower shields.

Its a proposed idea, it isn't RAW.

[Thurbane]

Two handed with an animated tower shield as soon as i can get it
Do note, that by RAW, even an Animated Tower Shield still imposes a -2 to hit penalty...

[Hiro Protagonest]

Its a proposed idea, it isn't RAW.

It's a good idea, too, as that would allow your AC to keep up with your attack bonus.

Although since there aren't much, if any, attack boosting items, but there are a ton of items like bracers of armor, so probably only add half your BAB to your armor class.

[TheThan]

I know it takes two hands to handle MY melee weapon!

oh oh oh!

[Tvtyrant]

Yeah, historically, hoplites used 10-foot spears one-handed, I have no idea why it's two-handed only. Though in Pathfinder, there is the one fighter variant, the phalanx fighter, which let's you use polearms one-handed.

Yup. We also made a 15ft. reach pike for a while, and then ditched it when we started to run into giants with them. They do not need a 30ft. reach :smallfrown:

[big teej]

Its a proposed idea, it isn't RAW.

ah, misunderstood.

it's interesting, I might have to propose this to my group....

at a much later date of course.

[Koury]

It's a good idea, too, as that would allow your AC to keep up with your attack bonus.

Although since there aren't much, if any, attack boosting items, but there are a ton of items like bracers of armor, so probably only add half your BAB to your armor class.

Yeah, I'd run some numbers before I decided on half or all. What would AC top out at with full BAB?

10 base
25 Shield
13 Armor
05 Natural (amulet)
05 Deflection (ring)
01 Haste
-----------
59 AC (28 touch)

And I've obviously not done much in the way of optimizing. I don't really think this is out of line for a defensive minded Fighter.

Same Fighter should have AB of:

20 BAB
05 Magic
10 Str or Dex 30
---------
35 AB

Hmm, what am I missing. Is that really it? If so, yeah, full BAB is much too much. Half would seem right on to me though (still award the full half BAB to touch though).

[Sucrose]

Random idea right off the top of my head:

Shields add BAB to AC (does not apply to Animated shields) and half BAB to touch AC.

Fighter 20 weilding a shield in combat would have 10 Base, 8(+5) Armor, 20(+5) Shield, 1 Dex, +misc (Haste, rings, natural, etc)

Thoughts? Would you think about using shield then? Would you ALWAYS use shields then? Maybe +half BAB?

From an RP perspective, see my opinion above.

From a purely mechanical perspective, this runs into the infinite-AC-Monk problem: you may yourself become comparatively well protected, but unless your offensive output is comparable to that of your allies, that just means that the enemies ignore you and aim for the squishies.

What shields need to be competitive is for one of two things, in addition to shields providing a relevant bonus: melee types to have easy ways of boosting their damage output beyond power attack shenanigans, and melee types being able to force enemies to fight them. Tome of Battle already makes shields at least of moderate use via the first option, since they have maneuvers that provide a flat bonus to damage regardless of weapon type. Knights and the Mage Slayer line would provide the second condition, but frankly, reach weapons work better for both. Still, those two options, coupled with the extra magic item slots mentioned above, makes shields at least not laughable.

Your half-AC fix in addition to Tome of Battle would probably improve shields to the point that they would be considered roughly equal with the other combat styles, maybe even stronger, so long as you're playing at a sufficiently low optimization level that the bonus damage from maneuvers is still enough to make your damage output something to be feared.

[Eldariel]

Yeah, I'd run some numbers before I decided on half or all. What would AC top out at with full BAB?

10 base
25 Shield
13 Armor
05 Natural (amulet)
05 Deflection (ring)
01 Haste
-----------
59 AC (28 touch)

And I've obviously not done much in the way of optimizing. I don't really think this is out of line for a defensive minded Fighter.

Same Fighter should have AB of:

20 BAB
05 Magic
10 Str or Dex 30
---------
35 AB

Hmm, what am I missing. Is that really it? If so, yeah, full BAB is much too much. Half would seem right on to me though (still award the full half BAB to touch though).

Well, Str/Dex is probably closer to 34 than 30 so that's +2. We're not accounting for combat modifiers (charge, prone, flank, etc.) nor for class features (obviously) nor for buffs (+2 morale, +1 luck, +1 sacred, etc.). We're also not accounting for the +1 Competence bonus from the Pale Green Prism Ioun Stone, +1 from Boots of Speed/Haste, etc.

I'd say +45 would be more realistic primary attack bonus for someone in a party, and maybe +40 for a lone character (level 20 Warrior, to avoid the class features since we accounted for none in the AC either - though most class features add offensively rather than defensively, see Fighter & Barbarian as examples). Still way high, but probably slightly less so especially since we can be looking at anywhere from +1 (high ground) to +9 (high ground flanking charge on prone opponent - there's of course other conditions like concealment/striking as invisible, and such but those are somewhat less reliable) To Hit from environmental variables. Though things like Cover can also add to AC.

[Koury]

Well, Str/Dex is probably closer to 34 than 30 so that's +2. We're not accounting for combat modifiers (charge, prone, flank, etc.) nor for class features (obviously) nor for buffs (+2 morale, +1 luck, +1 sacred, etc.). We're also not accounting for the +1 Competence bonus from the Pale Green Prism Ioun Stone, +1 from Boots of Speed/Haste, etc.

I'd say +45 would be more realistic primary attack bonus for someone in a party, and maybe +40 for a lone character (level 20 Warrior, to avoid the class features since we accounted for none in the AC either - though most class features add offensively rather than defensively, see Fighter & Barbarian as examples). Still way high, but probably slightly less so especially since we can be looking at anywhere from +1 (high ground) to +9 (high ground flanking charge on prone opponent - there's of course other conditions like concealment/striking as invisible, and such but those are somewhat less reliable) To Hit from environmental variables. Though things like Cover can also add to AC.

Well heres another question: How often SHOULD a primary meleer be able to hit a defensive minded opponent on his first attack? +45 vs 59 AC means 30% That doesn't seem terribly bad to me, but thats just gut feeling.

[Eldariel]

Well heres another question: How often SHOULD a primary meleer be able to hit a defensive minded opponent on his first attack? +45 vs 59 AC means 30% That doesn't seem terribly bad to me, but thats just gut feeling.

It's the first attack. I think the first attack should have 50ish% chance to hit, at least. You have 3 iteratives; second would be 25% and the other two would be 5%. And that's without any Power Attack or attack penalties from things like Rapid Shot/whatever.

[Koury]

It's the first attack. I think the first attack should have 50ish% chance to hit, at least. You have 3 iteratives; second would be 25% and the other two would be 5%. And that's without any Power Attack or attack penalties from things like Rapid Shot/whatever.

I feel like the defense focused guy (who bought +5 enhanced armor, shield, natural armor amulet and deflection ring) should be hard to hit, even on the first attack.

Again, thats just opinion, with no real base aside from "should," but thats where I'm coming from with those numbers. Dropping to half BAB whould make it ~80% on the first hit, which seems WAY too high.

[AslanCross]

I never really liked the aesthetics of S&B. I prefer the 2H look, so I never really make sword-and-shield fighters. It's either 2H or TWF, even if TWF isn't optimal.

[Hiro Protagonest]

I feel like the defense focused guy (who bought +5 enhanced armor, shield, natural armor amulet and deflection ring) should be hard to hit, even on the first attack.

Again, thats just opinion, with no real base aside from "should," but thats where I'm coming from with those numbers. Dropping to half BAB whould make it ~80% on the first hit, which seems WAY too high.

Well, I don't think a fighter 20 would have +45 attack bonus if he specializes in defensive items, he wouldn't have enough money to buy both the strength boosting items and the AC boosting items.

Though a wyrm black dragon (CR 20) has a +42 AB, while pit fiends and balors have their attack bonuses in the 30s, and the Tarrasque has a +57! All in all, it averages about 38, so it should probably be half BAB to defense, which would be 49 AC, a 45% hit chance.

[Eldariel]

Well, I don't think a fighter 20 would have +45 attack bonus if he specializes in defensive items, he wouldn't have enough money to buy both the strength boosting items and the AC boosting items.

Though a wyrm black dragon (CR 20) has a +42 AB, while pit fiends and balors have their attack bonuses in the 30s, and the Tarrasque has a +57! All in all, it averages about 38, so it should probably be half BAB to defense, which would be 49 AC, a 45% hit chance.

Meh. Balors and Pit Fiends hardly have their attacks for anything but AoOs anyways; mostly they wield their more-than-impressive array of SLAs. And Dragons do have ways to magically augment their attacks. Monsters are closer to +50 than +40 on this level, if played competently.

[Knaight]

I prefer the aesthetic of 2 handed weapons as a rule*, but there are a few problems with the group that prevents my use. I know how to optimize much, much better than the group as a whole, and I find it difficult to hold back to a sufficient degree, particularly as said sufficient degree seems to keep getting smaller. Its easier to appear to suck with a single weapon and shield, and there are less powerful subsets of that that I like the aesthetic of. Wooden large shield, club, hide armor, pelts, twine, these terms evoke a particular image, and one I happen to appreciate. It merely isn't quite as liked as the mailed spear user image once battle is held.



*Translate this as "I really like the two handed spear style"

[Jjeinn-tae]

I vary rather extensively, but when I don't go for optimization (most the time really) I sometimes come around with a character that uses two shields, generally bucklers. No it doesn't help at all, but it is entertaining.

[Koury]

All in all, it averages about 38, so it should probably be half BAB to defense, which would be 49 AC, a 45% hit chance.

Core CR 20 monsters average +29.56 AB, maxing out at +48.

So yeah, with that perspective, half BAB seems pretty right on the mark, I think.