wielding 2 great swords simultaneously

[pinballchico]

Currently in game...and my Warblade friend just got a second great sword. He has two weapon fighting, but wants to use 2-2handed weapons one handed...is there a feat or feat chain for this? Is it even possible? He's currently lvl. 5 but we've got point buys and buyable feats. Help me out here playground.

[Thurbane]

Strongarm Bracers allow you to wield a medium two handed weapon one handed...then grab TWF and Oversized TWF. You'll be getting -4/-4 to hit, but wielding two medium greatswords.

Alternatively, same setup, but wield two large long swords. Mechanically, identical to medium greatswords, but you can wield them at -2/-2.

[Sucrose]

Monkey Grip allows the use of weapons that are one size larger than normal at a -2 penalty. If you can convince the DM that greatswords are equivalent to Large longswords, then you can dual-wield the blades as one-handed weapons, for a total penalty of -6 on attacks from each (-2 Monkey Grip, -4 for dual-wielding oversized weaponry). Oversized Two Weapon Fighting allows you to decrease the penalty from wielding two one-handed weapons to -2, for a total penalty of -4.

Thus, it's doable, but it's feat intensive, and pretty inefficient.

Edit: Or, as Thurbane says, you can take the Strongarm Bracers for 6,000 gp, which do the same job as Monkey Grip, sans the penalty. I always seem to forget the Magic Item Compendium.

[Thurbane]

In before "monkey grip doesn't work like that!" :smalltongue:

[Sucrose]

In before "monkey grip doesn't work like that!" :smalltongue:

...Huh. Never noticed that it only works for the primary hand. That's a bit depressing; I always thought of Monkey Grip as a mild penalty for wanting to do something that looks absurd, but still allowing you to be moderately effective while making use of it.

How will my Bartz clone ever replicate Rapid Fire Dual Wielding Spellblades without a specific magic item now?:smalleek::smallbiggrin:

[Darrin]

Currently in game...and my Warblade friend just got a second great sword. He has two weapon fighting, but wants to use 2-2handed weapons one handed...is there a feat or feat chain for this? Is it even possible? He's currently lvl. 5 but we've got point buys and buyable feats. Help me out here playground.

There are several different options.

Strongarm Bracers (6000 GP, MIC p. 139) + Oversize TWF + EWP: Bastard Sword lets you wield a large-sized bastard sword in each hand (2d8 damage). You can still Power Attack with both, although only at a 1:1 ratio for one-handed weapons. Add Gloves of the Balanced Hand (8000 GP, MIC p. 105) for TWF or Imp. TWF. If you're already taking EWP (or can buy it), add the Heavy property (+7000 GP each, Magic of Faerun p. 179) to take it up to 4d6 damage.

If you can get ahold of a pair of Lesser/Unawakened Sunswords (3000 GP, Expedition to Castle Ravenloft p. 210), you can wield both of those as if they were shortswords (light weapon). Since a bastard sword can be treated as a two-handed martial weapon, you can also add the Morphing property (+1 enhancement, MIC p. 39) and morph them into greatswords... which can still be wielded as if they were shortswords (light weapons) or one-handed bastard swords (for Oversize TWF). [NOTE: Before Cog jumps in here, yes, there may be some RAW issues with this one.]

Another method would be to add a pair of arms. Dip Totemist for two levels, and you can bind the Girallon Arms soulmeld to your totem chakra, which gives you four blue furry claw-tipped arms. Or you can pay a 13th level wizard to cast girallon's blessing (Spell Compendium p. 106) and permanency (Savage Species p. 60) for about 8540 GP. You can also add more arms via grafts, although that will set you back anywhere from 25000 GP to 50000 GP per arm.

Then there's the polymorph route to switch into another form with multiple arms. The easist is probably picking of a Phylactery of Change (11200 GP, A&EG p. 135), which gives you all-day polymorph up to 7HD (check out the Ormyrr in MMII). Thri-kreen (MMII or Shining South) or Diopsids (Dragon Compendium) work well for this, although the Tako (Oriental Adventures) can attack with 7 arms (three and a half greatswords).

[Sdonourg]

There is a diopsid race in Dragon Compendium. Diopsids can do it IIRC.

[Mayhem]

Using a greatsword as a large longsword will net you a -4 penalty though won't it, since you're using an improvised( or whatever) weapon? Strongarm bracers would probably bypass that rule though.

[Cog]

Using a greatsword as a large longsword will net you a -4 penalty though won't it, since you're using an improvised( or whatever) weapon? Strongarm bracers would probably bypass that rule though.
Just because they have similar characteristics does not mean that a Medium greatsword is identical to a Large longsword.

[Thurbane]

Just because they have similar characteristics does not mean that a Medium greatsword is identical to a Large longsword.
Not in 3.5, but under the 3.0 weapon equivalency rules, they were treated the same.

From the OP, I think the player already has his race chose, and it sounds like he wants to specifically dual wield two greatswords he has found as loot...

[FMArthur]

There is a diopsid race in Dragon Compendium. Diopsids can do it IIRC.

They still take the penalties for TWFing with non-light off-hand weapons, which are only -4/-4 for them because they are at least wielding them in the correct number of hands. They have the ability to wield weapons one size larger however, so they can certainly use two large longswords (same stats as medium greatswords) without penalty if they take Oversized Two Weapon Fighting, and simultaneously count as wielding them two-handed.

The OP is talking about an ongoing game where someone decided they want to TWF greatswords on a whim, so this is pretty much outside the scope of possibilities.

[Cog]

Not in 3.5, but under the 3.0 weapon equivalency rules, they were treated the same.

Last I knew, Warblades were a pretty good indicator of 3.5. :smallcool:

[Gwendol]

2-handed weapons "can't" be wielded one-handed. That means that even with the TWF feat he still takes -4 to attack rolls with both hands from non-proficiency.

However, get the cleric to cast Girallon's blessing and he'll be fine!

[Garagos]

Here's a few homebrew feats some friends and I made for our campaigns for fighting with 2h weapons in 1h. Not sure if your DM will allow this stuff but thought I'd throw it out there.

Improved Monkey Grip
Required: Monkey Grip, Str 15, BAB +2

Benefit: With this feat, a character may wield 2 handed weapons in one hand with the same additional -2 penalty to attack rolls that is associated with Monkey Grip.

Off-Hand Monkey Grip
Required: Monkey Grip, Two Weapon Fighting, Str 15

Benefit: This feat allows a character to wield a 2 handed weapon or a one handed weapon one size category larger than himself in his off hand. The -2 penalty from Monkey Grip still applies.

[Gullintanni]

Using Girallon's Blessing, couldn't you dual-wield two 2-handed weapons whilst retaining a 2:1 PA ratio on each?

[Violet Octopus]

Last I knew, Warblades were a pretty good indicator of 3.5. :smallcool:
It's also a variant rule in the 3.5 DMG, so it has that veneer of officiality.

[Gwendol]

Using Girallon's Blessing, couldn't you dual-wield two 2-handed weapons whilst retaining a 2:1 PA ratio on each?

Yes, that is correct.

[Gullintanni]

Heh...brutal. That's entirely unfair :smalltongue:

[Cog]

There are other ways to get 2H returns on two weapons, though usually it's not as easy as casting a single spell.

[The Rabbler]

while not quite greatswords, your friend could pick up the Exotic Weapon Proficiency (heavy longsword) (or you could go for a heavy elven thinblade for a real weapon). the longswords would still be longswords, but they now deal 2d6 base damage and are made of gold.

[Gullintanni]

Yeah but this method is so versatile. So ripe for exploitation and shenanigans. Oversized TWF? On two Greatswords? Why not? Leap Attack + Shock Trooper? With two weapons? 4:1 PA on two Greatswords? Yes please.

Start throwing on weapon mods, additional sources of damage etc...So much power!!

[Mayhem]

Just because they have similar characteristics does not mean that a Medium greatsword is identical to a Large longsword.
:smallconfused: That's what I said. Chill out :smallcool:.

[Gwendol]

If you can "convince" your DM to go for the savage species version of the spell it gets even worse as you grow even more arms based on your size and caster level. Typically a medium-sized cleric would be able to grow two additional pairs of arms by the time he gets the spell.
Also, you can grab the weapon with more arms to get more STR damage (0.5 STR bonus/hand IIRC).

[Cog]

:smallconfused: That's what I said. Chill out :smallcool:.
Don't worry, I'm chill. :smallbiggrin: You can't wield something as both a Large longsword and an improvised weapon simultaneously, so the opening line was a little misleading, and I did skip reading the rest because of that. Still, it wouldn't be improvised either, as there are already other rules for handling weapon sizes.


Also, you can grab the weapon with more arms to get more STR damage (0.5 STR bonus/hand IIRC).
According to Savage Species, which is the most recent source I know for polyhanded wielding of weapons, the weapon must still be specifically constructed for the number of extra hands you want to use.

[Gullintanni]

Don't worry, I'm chill. :smallbiggrin: You can't wield something as both a Large longsword and an improvised weapon simultaneously, so the opening line was a little misleading, and I did skip reading the rest because of that. Still, it wouldn't be improvised either, as there are already other rules for handling weapon sizes.


According to Savage Species, which is the most recent source I know for polyhanded wielding of weapons, the weapon must still be specifically constructed for the number of extra hands you want to use.

This is an easy enough matter to resolve though...just have a weapon custom built for you.

[Darrin]

If you can "convince" your DM to go for the savage species version of the spell it gets even worse as you grow even more arms based on your size and caster level. Typically a medium-sized cleric would be able to grow two additional pairs of arms by the time he gets the spell.
Also, you can grab the weapon with more arms to get more STR damage (0.5 STR bonus/hand IIRC).

While true, be careful about the Savage Species version. If you have to do anything complicated with the extra arms (such as combat), you have to make a DC 19 Will save or take a -2 penalty on attacks/saves/skill/ability checks. The Spell Compendium version (which supercedes the earlier version) has no such drawback (in fact, it adds some natural claw attacks for combat), but doesn't give more than two extra arms.

[Gwendol]

Correct. I didn't want to post the full spell description here. For cleric though, the will save isn't that much of a hurdle.

[Zaranthan]

This is an easy enough matter to resolve though...just have a weapon custom built for you.

Better yet, use a quarterstaff. The whole thing is both handle and striking surface.

[Gullintanni]

Aren't Greatclubs free as well?

[Cog]

Better yet, use a quarterstaff. The whole thing is both handle and striking surface.
And yet it is somehow still only a two-handed weapon. :smallamused:

Edit: Greatclubs are relatively cheap, but they are not free.

[Gullintanni]

Hmmm...strange. You're right though 5 gp. Odd that Clubs and Quarterstaves are free while Greatclubs are not. That's DnD though.

[Cog]

Hmmm...strange. You're right though 5 gp. Odd that Clubs and Quarterstaves are free while Greatclubs are not. That's DnD though.
Because anybody who's twohanding instead of going sword-and-shield is obviously a dirty powergamer and must pay extra to do so. :smalltongue:

[FMArthur]

If anything it should be much more expensive than metal weapons, with no wall-of-wood spell supplying the world with ease.

edit: Hmm... that doesn't sound right. There's probably a Druid spell that instantly grows trees at least.

[Zaranthan]

And yet it is somehow still only a two-handed weapon. :smallamused:

Edit: Greatclubs are relatively cheap, but they are not free.

I was mentioning it in response to the "custom built multiarmed weapon." It's reasonable to say that a greatsword made for humans (or hill giants) doesn't have enough hilt and handle to be grasped effectively by more than two hands. When your weapon is a six foot pole, not so much. :D

[Cog]

I was mentioning it in response to the "custom built multiarmed weapon."
So was I. That was the reason for the :smallamused:; while letting it be multihanded makes sense, it's still "only" a 2H weapon by RAW. I meant the comment in the "RAW is silly sometimes" sense.

[Zaranthan]

So was I. That was the reason for the :smallamused:; while letting it be multihanded makes sense, it's still "only" a 2H weapon by RAW. I meant the comment in the "RAW is silly sometimes" sense.

Ah. I dislike the variety of emoticons available for this reason. :\ would've been instantly clear. I tend to argue from a standpoint that RAW is not silly, it's nearly worthless, especially when dealing with such an extreme corner case as abusing a spell meant to let you wield a two-handed weapon and shield while casting more spells. I also tend to forget that other people don't intuitively agree with me.

[Thurbane]

Last I knew, Warblades were a pretty good indicator of 3.5. :smallcool:
Indeed - I was just pointing out that it used to be a rule, but not any longer, so not relevant to the OP (although I have seen some groups that houserule 3.0 rules back into 3.5, like weapon equivalencies, and degrees of cover).


2-handed weapons "can't" be wielded one-handed. That means that even with the TWF feat he still takes -4 to attack rolls with both hands from non-proficiency.
That's why I suggested he use Strongarm Bracers. The allow you to wield weapons "as if you were 1 size category larger". On a medium creature, this means you wield as if large - and a large creature can wield a two-handed weapon intended for a medium creature in one hand, at a -2 size difference penalty.

But as you say, if you can get a reliable source of Gorillons Blessing, it's more efficient.