Hiding, sneak attacks and HiPS

[mucco]

Hi playground.

I'm having lots of difficulties trying to understand how hiding while attacking actually works. The only thing explained in the SRD is that you can hide at a -20 penalty after having made one ranged attack. That's not nearly enough for me.

1. What if I wanted to full attack? Do I automatically blow my cover and thus get no SA?
2. What if I go melee? Does a single melee attack count as sniping?
3. Combo: melee full attack? Is it possible to get SA on each attack while using Hide to keep the target flat-footed?

4. In all these cases, what kind of action would the Hide check be (move, free)? Please clarify this for me.

5. How does Hide in Plain Sight factor in?

[Diarmuid]

When attacking from Hiding, your first attack is the only one that benefits from SA, much like attacking from normal invisibility. Many DM's houserule that if you are DW, then your first attack with each hand gets SA, giving credit for a attacking with both hands simultaneously.

The issue is one of actions. Hiding is at best a Move Equivalent Action, and you cannot take a MEA in the middle of a Full Attack Action.

HIPS doesnt really come into play as you still cant make a MEA in the middle of a FAA.

[Feytalist]

Really, the best way to sneak attack is from a flanking position. Or, if one on one, the annoying combat feint route, which again only really gives you a standard action to attack in with Improved Feint.

With hide, its single attacks all the way, even with HiPS.

[Tancred]

1. What if I wanted to full attack? Do I automatically blow my cover and thus get no SA?

The first attack would get SA, the remainder would not, unless you remained hidden/invisible through other means (e.g. Greater Invisibility, or you were in a pitch black room wearing a Ring of the Darkhidden).


2. What if I go melee? Does a single melee attack count as sniping?

The rules for sniping assume that you are shooting from cover (which is needed to hide), and then using that cover for a hide check at -20 because the enemy knows approximately where the shot came from.

If you're attacking in melee, then in almost all circumstances you're no longer in cover, and therefore cannot initiate a hide check afterwards.


3. Combo: melee full attack? Is it possible to get SA on each attack while using Hide to keep the target flat-footed?

No. You can only get SA on each attack if you remain hidden/invisible (as above), and Hide is negated after your first attack.


4. In all these cases, what kind of action would the Hide check be (move, free)? Please clarify this for me.

1. N/A
2. Move action if you can create a suitable diversion
3. Move action if you can make one (e.g. Belt of Battle), diversion required. Comes with appropriate penalties.


5. How does Hide in Plain Sight factor in?

It allows you to do exactly what it says - as long as the other factors of Hiding are covered. So you'll still need cover (unless you're e.g. a Level 13+ Ranger in a forest), but you won't need a diversion.

[Veyr]

RAW, it depends greatly on what flavor of HiPS you have. There's like seventeen different abilities with that name.

[mucco]

When attacking from Hiding, your first attack is the only one that benefits from SA, much like attacking from normal invisibility.

Nice to know. What would be the sources for this?

[Curmudgeon]

1. What if I wanted to full attack? Do I automatically blow my cover and thus get no SA?
If you want to understand Hide, start by paying close attention to the Spot rules.
Action: Varies. Every time you have a chance to spot something in a reactive manner you can make a Spot check without using an action.
Attacking someone is definitely something for your opponent to react to, so you're usually no longer hidden afterward.

2. What if I go melee? Does a single melee attack count as sniping? Never. Sniping is only for ranged attacks.
Sniping

If you’ve already successfully hidden at least 10 feet from your target, you can make one ranged attack, then immediately hide again.

3. Combo: melee full attack? Is it possible to get SA on each attack while using Hide to keep the target flat-footed?
Hide never makes your target flat-footed, which (among other things) keeps them from taking immediate actions and attacks of opportunity. Being visually undetectable (through whatever means: hiding, invisibility, blind opponent, & c.) does deny your target their DEX bonus to AC. If you're visually undetectable on every swing of your full attack, then you can add sneak attack damage on every hit.

4. In all these cases, what kind of action would the Hide check be (move, free)? Please clarify this for me.
I'll start by pointing out that Sniping is a special case option. It's the only time that a Hde check is a separate action. Mostly Hide is no action.
Action: Usually none. All other Hde checks must be piggy-backed on other actions, of which there's a fairly short list: moving, attacking, running, charging.

5. How does Hide in Plain Sight factor in?
This depends on which Hide in Plain Sight version you've got. The Hide skill has two requirements for use: (1) have cover/concealment; and (2) don't be observed. Mostly these HiPS versions are Extraordinary and just take care of the second requirement; you still can't Hide unless you also have cover/concealment, or some separate ability (like the Ranger's Camouflage) to satisfy the first requirement. The superior Hide in Plain Sight versions, generally Supernatural (such as Shadowdancer and Assassin) remove both Hide requirements: you can be observed and not have anything to Hide behind.

So, if you've got a way to satisfy both Hide requirements, you can do the following:

Move up to an enemy with a 5' step, and Hide while moving (-5 penalty because you're moving at full speed; ½ speed would only move you 2.5 feet, which rounds down to 0: you wouldn't get out of your square). If your Hide check beats the enemy's Spot despite the penalty, you're hidden.
Swing at the enemy. If you're already hidden you get the standard benefits: +2 to attack, and the enemy is denied their DEX bonus to AC. You can Hide while attacking if you meet both requirements, which generally means you've got some form of Hide in Plain Sight. If you weren't already hidden, a successful check (with the -20 penalty) means you also get the benefit of being visually undetectable for this swing, because you're hiding while attacking (not before, and not after: it's not a separate action).
Repeat for subsequent swings.

[mucco]

I'm in love with you, Curmudgeon.

(Assume Assassin's HiPS) So basically you have to roll Hide with every attack to make sure you stay hidden? And you still get the -20 penalty? Beacuse that's only mentioned for sniping.

What if you want to do a full ranged attack? It says sniping requires a move action to hide, so I understand it's impossible to do it.

[tyckspoon]

General Hide rule-
It’s practically impossible (-20 penalty) to hide while attacking, running or charging.

As for the full ranged attack, I don't see anything that prohibits you from using the melee-full-attack sequence for it as well. Just declare that you're hiding while attacking instead of 'Sniping.' Sure, in most situations it'd be a semantic distinction only, but there is a solid mechanical difference here.

[Curmudgeon]

So basically you have to roll Hide with every attack to make sure you stay hidden? And you still get the -20 penalty? Beacuse that's only mentioned for sniping.
The Hide skill is poorly organized, but everything is there. It just takes most people about 3 readings to notice all the pieces.

It’s practically impossible (-20 penalty) to hide while attacking, running or charging. If you're hidden already when you swing, you get the benefit for that attack. If you succeed on a Hide check with the attack, you also get the benefit for that attack and you're still hidden. If you manage to make your Hide check on every swing you never become visible to your target with the inferior Spot skill; they won't even know what square you were in when you attacked.

For ranged attacks with Hide in Plain Sight: everything works the same as for melee attacks. You'll still take the -20 penalty to Hide while attacking. If you want to have a lesser penalty you'll need to move, such as with a 5' step (only -5).

Edit: looks like tyckspoon covered these points while I was composing my version. One correction, though:

Just declare that you're hiding while attacking instead of 'Sniping.' Sure, in most situations it'd be a semantic distinction only, but there is a solid mechanical difference here. It's definitely not just a semantic difference, because it's a completely different action. Sniping requires a move action check to Hide, and that happens after your ranged attack. But inherent in making an attack is that it's something an opponent can notice with a reactive Spot check, and you're not hidden then. Consequently they'll have already pinpointed the square you attacked from, and with Sniping you don't move anywhere with your move action Hide check. So any enemy has a 50% chance of hitting you if they just target your square. On the other hand, if you successfully Hide while making a ranged attack you'll never become visible to enemies with inferior Spot checks. That difference is huge; they won't have a clue where you are.

[Diarmuid]

I think Curm's interpretation of the type of action for Hide is severely stretching at best.



Action: Usually none. Normally, you make a Hide check as part of movement, so it doesn’t take a separate action. However, hiding immediately after a ranged attack (see Sniping, above) is a move action.


I really dont see anywhere in there where you think it would be OK to make a Hide check after each attack of a Full Attack Action.

Normally A, except when B.

As written, B is the only time when A does not come into play, or in this case...sniping is the only exception to making a Hide check as part of movement.

[Curmudgeon]

I think Curm's interpretation of the type of action for Hide is severely stretching at best.
...
I really dont see anywhere in there where you think it would be OK to make a Hide check after each attack of a Full Attack Action.
There's no stretching going on. You don't Hide after you attack; you Hide while attacking. It's no action for a Hide check (except for the special case of Sniping).

I'm just reading what's written in the rules.

[mykelyk]

Swing at the enemy. If you're already hidden you get the standard benefits: +2 to attack, and the enemy is denied their DEX bonus to AC. You can Hide while attacking if you meet both requirements, which generally means you've got some form of Hide in Plain Sight. If you weren't already hidden, a successful check (with the -20 penalty) means you also get the benefit of being visually undetectable for this swing, because you're hiding while attacking (not before, and not after: it's not a separate action).
Repeat for subsequent swings.
[/LIST]

I disagree with the bolded part. He get reactive spot check only until he fail one, then all the subsequent attacks are sneak attack.


The rogue’s attack deals extra damage any time her target would be denied a Dexterity bonus to AC


Invisible

Visually undetectable. An invisible creature gains a +2 bonus on attack rolls against sighted opponents, and ignores its opponents’ Dexterity bonuses to AC (if any).

To negate the a sneak attack the enemy must spot the creature, not the attack; while an attack give the enemy a chance to see the attacker if he fail to do so he cannot retry (until his round).


Trying to spot something you failed to see previously is a move action.

If you failed to spot the assassin during his first attack all the others attack are automatically sneak attack.

If you managed to spot the assassin during his first attack then he can try again to hide on his second attack, then the third ecc.

The first time the assassin manage to beat your spot check (with a -20 penalty) all his next attacks are sneak attack.

[Curmudgeon]

I disagree with the bolded part. He get reactive spot check only until he fail one, then all the subsequent attacks are sneak attack.
That depends on the specifics of the attack, but it's good you're brought up this point.
Every time you have a chance to spot something in a reactive manner you can make a Spot check without using an action. Trying to spot something you failed to see previously is a move action. The term "something" is vague. Some DMs interpret it broadly (the same creature), and others narrowly (the same creature in the same location performing the same act in the same manner). With the latter reading, the same character in the same location making a melee attack but with a different hand/different weapon would be a distinct "something", and thus prompt a new reactive Spot check. That's something (:smallsmile:) to keep in mind if you're fond of Two-Weapon Fighting, boot blades, or Snap Kick. Anyway, talk to your DM ahead of time to find out what interpretation is going to be used for your game.