Righteous Might and polymorph stack?

[Forsaker]

Old question I guess but I have my doubts, Righteous might says in the text : Multiple magical effects that increase
size do not stack, which means (among
other things) that you can’t use a second
casting of this spell to further increase
your size while you are still under the
effect of the first casting.

But polymorph dosen't work like any other size increase spell like (enlarge person) since its changing my BASE race into a diferent monster for example a cave troll. I am having a losing argument with my DM about this, and maybe Im wrong which is why I need some diferent points of view. Does it stack? or dosen't?

[LordBlades]

They stack. Polymorph does not increase your size, it changes your body to a new one.

[Tyger]

They stack. Polymorph does not increase your size, it changes your body to a new one.

+1

Polymorph is not a size increase. It is a new base size, as you are correctly arguing with your DM.

If you are polymorphed into a War Troll, you are a large sized creature, default. If you then cast Righteous Might, you increase your size one category, going from Large to Huge.

[Forsaker]

They stack. Polymorph does not increase your size, it changes your body to a new one.

Exactly thats what I think, its not working like Enlarge spell because Im gaining a new form which in this case is a ''cave troll'' that gives me large size.

[Forsaker]

+1

Polymorph is not a size increase. It is a new base size, as you are correctly arguing with your DM.

If you are polymorphed into a War Troll, you are a large sized creature, default. If you then cast Righteous Might, you increase your size one category, going from Large to Huge.

+1,000,000,000

Yep yep yep thats exactly how I see it :), thanks.

[Douglas]

If you use Polymorph to change from a human (or other medium-sized race) to a War Troll, then that instance of Polymorph is a magical effect that has increased your size. If you then cast Righteous Might, they are both magical effects that increase size and therefore they do not stack.

If you started as an Ogre instead, for example, Polymorphing into a War Troll would merely keep your size the same and the two spells would stack.

Polymorph does not change your base race, it merely grants a subset of the racial traits of the chosen race. Actually changing your base race would take a ritual of some sort from Savage Species or a Reincarnate spell, and it would involve gaining the appropriate level adjustment and racial hit dice.

[Forsaker]

If you use Polymorph to change from a human (or other medium-sized race) to a War Troll, then that instance of Polymorph is a magical effect that has increased your size. If you then cast Righteous Might, they are both magical effects that increase size and therefore they do not stack.

If you started as an Ogre, for example, Polymorphing into a War Troll would merely keep your size the same and the two spells would stack.

This is exactly how my DM sees it, the other side of the coin hehe. Why does my size increase? Im replacing my race pretty much, it should work like a cleric cave troll level 11 casting righteous might himself.

[Douglas]

This is exactly how my DM sees it, the other side of the coin hehe. Why does my size increase? Im replacing my race pretty much, it should work like a cleric cave troll level 11 casting righteous might himself.
Polymorph does not change your base race, it merely grants a subset of the racial traits of the chosen race. Actually changing your base race would take a ritual of some sort from Savage Species or a Reincarnate spell, and it would involve gaining the appropriate level adjustment and racial hit dice.

A human Polymorphed into a War Troll is still a human with a spell on him, not a War Troll. He does not have a War Troll's regeneration, is probably lacking some other racial traits, does have a human's bonus feat and skill points, does not have a War Troll's racial hit dice and level adjustment, and if hit by Dispel Magic he turns fully back into a human.

[Cog]

Why does my size increase?
Because you are A) under a magical effect, B) that effect has changed your size, and C) Large size is an increase over Medium. I don't think it's unfair to read it the other way, but not stacking is the most probable, and if the DM says to go with that it's entirely fair.

[Greymane]

I could see the argument being made both ways, but the crux of it is still this: You are a human, and you're using a spell that makes you bigger. A True Seeing spell still picks you up as a human pretending he's a War Troll. Thus, two spells that increase your size do not stack.

[Keld Denar]

Douglas is correct on this. If you polymorph into another medium creature, your size hasn't changed, and you can still benefit from other size increases. If you are medium and polymorph into a large creature, your size has increased due to a magical effect, and it would not stack with other effects that increase size.

[Forsaker]

Yeah its not unfair, its my DM's call and I will deal with it, but I was just looking for some diferent point of views or real proof about this maybe an FAQ or something. But yeah it is pretty fair.

[Keld Denar]

IIRC, the FAQ ruled against them stacking as well. Even the Sage doesn't want you to have fun!

[Forsaker]

IIRC, the FAQ ruled against them stacking as well. Even the Sage doesn't want you to have fun!

Where is that FAQ?

[Keld Denar]

Wizards website. (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/er/20030221a)

[Forsaker]

Wizards website. (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/er/20030221a)

Couldn't find the polymorph and righteous might FAQ, I saw every single FAQ from polymorph except from that one unless I miss read something, can you point me the page atlast?

[Keld Denar]

If it wasn't there, check out the Rules of the Game about Polymorph.

Part 1 (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20040511a) and Revisited (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20060502a)
Part 2 (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20040518a) and Revisited (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20060509a)
Part 3 (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20040525a) and Revisited (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20060516a)
Part 4 (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20040601a) and Revisited (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20060523a)

If it wasn't in the FAQ, its probably in there, somewhere. Sorry for not being more exact, my memory isn't what it was when I was younger...

[Curmudgeon]

But polymorph dosen't work like any other size increase spell like (enlarge person) since its changing my BASE race into a diferent monster
You're failing to understand the difference between transient and instantaneous magic. Your base race is whatever it is with no magic. An instantaneous spell will result in a change to your race. If you use Polymorph and step into an Antimagic Field you'll change to your base race, because Polymorph doesn't change your base race; it just creates a transient change while the magic lasts. And if Polymorph or any other spell increases your size, you're required to abide by the magic stacking limit:
Multiple magical effects that increase size do not stack.

[Forsaker]

I see now.

[Veyr]

The line written in Righteous Might seems to imply that this is a general rule — is it actually written somewhere as a general rule, as opposed to just appearing in the descriptions of some spells?

[Cog]

It's only in various spell descriptions within the SRD as far as I can see, but in each case it's phrased as a general rule - it doesn't say "multiple magical effects that increase size don't stack with this effect".

[Veyr]

Weird. They also all seem to say how "this means you can't cast this effect twice to increase in size" which you... couldn't have done anyway? Same source would mean they don't stack, right?

[Cog]

Weird. They also all seem to say how "this means you can't cast this effect twice to increase in size" which you... couldn't have done anyway? Same source would mean they don't stack, right?
It's phrased even more generally than that. A Weretiger can use a magical ability (Alternate Form) to increase in size. Upon doing so, he no longer can benefit from Enlarge Person, because it's another magical effect that increases size.

It runs into the primary source rule, though. The exception is phrased to keep all magical size changes from stacking, but the primary rules for Alternate Form would be in the Monster Manual instead. If you had two monster-ability-based means of changing size, I think those might then stack.

[Claudius Maximus]

Weird. They also all seem to say how "this means you can't cast this effect twice to increase in size" which you... couldn't have done anyway? Same source would mean they don't stack, right?

I think that's there as a legacy thing, since IIRC you could stack Enlarge Person back in 2e. Seems reasonable to have made that note to prevent mistakes like that.

[Urpriest]

What if you cast Righteous Might, then cast Polymorph, then cast Righteous Might again?

The first Righteous Might makes you Large. You use Polymorph to become something Large. Since you were already Large, Polymorph is not an effect that increases your size in this case. Dismiss your first Righteous Might, then cast a new one. Since you are not under any magical effects that increased your size when they were cast, your new Righteous Might will increase your size.

[Ditto]

That is extremely clever.

However, if the rules work like a computer program that checks for operators governing your size, you are arguably shrunk back to Medium when the RM ends and PM immediately re-sizes you. Or the PM effect is toggled to become the one which is 'supporting' your Large size. Like:

Are you under the effect of...
1. RM Yes --> Large
2. PM (Not checked)
3. EP (Not checked)
Dismiss RM.
Are you under the effect of...
1. RM No
2. PM Yes --> Large
3. EP (Not checked)

So as long as you are subject to any operator which affects your base size, regardless of order of operations, the principle of the 'no double sizing effects' stays intact.

[Forsaker]

What if you cast Righteous Might, then cast Polymorph, then cast Righteous Might again?

The first Righteous Might makes you Large. You use Polymorph to become something Large. Since you were already Large, Polymorph is not an effect that increases your size in this case. Dismiss your first Righteous Might, then cast a new one. Since you are not under any magical effects that increased your size when they were cast, your new Righteous Might will increase your size.

WOW thats very clever indeed, thank you very much!!.

[candycorn]

Polymorph does not change your base race, it merely grants a subset of the racial traits of the chosen race. Actually changing your base race would take a ritual of some sort from Savage Species or a Reincarnate spell, and it would involve gaining the appropriate level adjustment and racial hit dice.

A human Polymorphed into a War Troll is still a human with a spell on him, not a War Troll. He does not have a War Troll's regeneration, is probably lacking some other racial traits, does have a human's bonus feat and skill points, does not have a War Troll's racial hit dice and level adjustment, and if hit by Dispel Magic he turns fully back into a human.

Incorrect.


This spell functions like alter self, except that you change the willing subject into another form of living creature. The new form may be of the same type as the subject or any of the following types: aberration, animal, dragon, fey, giant, humanoid, magical beast, monstrous humanoid, ooze, plant, or vermin. The assumed form can’t have more Hit Dice than your caster level (or the subject’s HD, whichever is lower), to a maximum of 15 HD at 15th level. You can’t cause a subject to assume a form smaller than Fine, nor can you cause a subject to assume an incorporeal or gaseous form. The subject’s creature type and subtype (if any) change to match the new form.
You assume a form. It goes on to say what specific abilities of that form you do and don't get. But it doesn't make any reference to increasing size categories. If the form you assume has a different size category, your size becomes that, but that is part of assuming the form, not a size increase.

To provide context:
Any gear worn or carried by the druid melds into the new form and becomes nonfunctional. When the druid reverts to her true form, any objects previously melded into the new form reappear in the same location on her body that they previously occupied and are once again functional. Any new items worn in the assumed form fall off and land at the druid's feet.
Assuming a new form is taking a new form. You are not your true form until the effect ends. Therefore, it can't be increasing the size of your true form; you aren't your true form.


A true seeing spell or ability reveals the creature’s natural form. A creature using alternate form reverts to its natural form when killed, but separated body parts retain their shape.You are not your natural form. You are a different form. This is not increasing the size of your natural form, and altering it. This is giving you an entirely different form, which is not your natural form, nor is it your true form.

It is a magically created form.

Also to be noted: Every size alteration ability in the SRD lists that multiple size alterations don't stack.

Alternate Form, Wild Shape, Alter Self, Polymorph, PAO, and Shapechange do not.

Coincidence?

Enlarge Person and Righteous Might basically state: "Size = Size +1"
Polymorph and their ilk state: "Size(you) = Size(creature X)"
It isn't increasing or decreasing size. It is setting it to a specific value, regardless of current size.
Since it is not referencing your current size and altering it, it is not a size-altering spell.

If your DM is really being stubborn, use Polymorph Any Object. That one states explicitly that it changes you into another creature.

[Cog]

Assuming a new form is taking a new form. You are not your true form until the effect ends. Therefore, it can't be increasing the size of your true form; you aren't your true form.
This "true form" restriction doesn't appear in the original text and is your own creation. All that matters is if there's a size increase. Polymorph and such have variable effects; just as some uses give you claw attacks and some don't, just as some uses give you flight and some don't, some uses result in a size increase and some don't. The fact that not all uses result in a size increase doesn't somehow make a Large size result somehow the same as a Medium size starting point.


Alternate Form, Wild Shape, Alter Self, Polymorph, PAO, and Shapechange do not.

Coincidence?
There may be some argument for intent here. If that is sufficient for you, then great. I don't think it's clear enough to automatically decide that, though.


If your DM is really being stubborn, use Polymorph Any Object. That one states explicitly that it changes you into another creature.
This really doesn't get around anything. PAO is a permanent effect, not an instantaneous one. It would have the same restrictions as the other polymorph-type spells, whatever those restrictions might be.

[Curmudgeon]

Polymorph and their ilk state: "Size(you) = Size(creature X)"
It isn't increasing or decreasing size. It is setting it to a specific value, regardless of current size.
That doesn't make sense. If Polymorph is setting it to a specific value, which is larger than the previous size, it is increasing size, regardless of whatever else it's doing. Just because the spell can, if used in a different fashion, result in a size that's the same or smaller is immaterial. If its current use results in a larger size, that's a magical effect that increases size.

The stacking limit doesn't specify anything about absolute or relative size changes; it simply applies to all magical effects.

[Forsaker]

This is getting better and BETTER!! :D

[Forged Fury]

For reference, the root of this argument is almost identical to "Does Pierce Magical Protection dispel Cat's Grace?"

[Cog]

The difference being that "bonus to armor class" has a specific in-game meaning that can be easily examined*, while "increase size" is plain English. If PMP referred to "spells that increase AC", it would be a better comparison.

*(Cat's Grace doesn't give a bonus to AC; it gives a bonus on another number, and that increase is carried through to AC by the existing bonus.)

[Forged Fury]

The difference being that "bonus to armor class" has a specific in-game meaning that can be easily examined*, while "increase size" is plain English. If PMP referred to "spells that increase AC", it would be a better comparison.
There really isn't another way to write "increase size" in D&D since there's no such thing as a "bonus to size" in the game. I think it's an apropos comparison since you're dealing with primary and secondary effects.

To me, it's whether the spell directly causes a size increase as its defined benefit (e.g. Enlarge Person, Righteous Might, Giant Size) or whether the spell causes a different effect, of which an increase in size is a secondary effect, usually among several others.

Did a bullet kill the terrorist or did the SEAL pulling the trigger of the rifle that fired the bullet which struck the terrorist kill the terrorist? If bullet, then size increasing spells stack with shapechange type spells. If SEAL then they don't.

[Cog]

There really isn't another way to write "increase size" in D&D since there's no such thing as a "bonus to size" in the game.
While the bonus rules are very explicit about what they are and what they apply to. That's exactly why it's not a good comparison.


To me, it's whether the spell directly causes a size increase as its defined benefit (e.g. Enlarge Person, Righteous Might, Giant Size) or whether the spell causes a different effect, of which an increase in size is a secondary effect, usually among several others.
Now you're inserting words into the restriction. There is no question of "directly" in the original text.


Did a bullet kill the terrorist or did the SEAL pulling the trigger of the rifle that fired the bullet which struck the terrorist kill the terrorist? If bullet, then size increasing spells stack with shapechange type spells. If SEAL then they don't.
When one analogy fails, reaching for an even more inappropriate one hardly helps, especially when no analogy is needed at all.

[Forged Fury]

LOL. Just like I insert the phrase "You do not heal as a result of drowning" to the drowning rules when I use them. When the rules are less than clear, a DM clarifies them.

OP: Unlike some in this thread, I won't claim some mystical omniscience pertaining to knowing the thoughts of the original writers of the rules. Attempts to do so are laughable at best. Point your DM to this thread. There is clearly a division in whether this would work or not. There are valid claims both ways. Ultimately, it's their decision.

[Cog]

I won't claim some mystical omniscience pertaining to knowing the thoughts of the original writers of the rules.
But that's exactly what you are doing when you somehow decide "directly" should be inserted. I'm just reading the rules as they're actually written. :smallconfused:

[candycorn]

Enlarge person:
This increase changes the creature’s size category to the next larger one.
Magical effect that increases size.

Righteous Might:
This increase changes your size category to the next larger one
Magical effect that increases size.

Polymorph has no such text. If I say, I cast Enlarge person, it increases my size. No question.

If I say, I cast polymorph, it does not. That is not part of the spell description. It assumes a form which may be a larger size. It may be the same size. It may be a smaller size.

Fireball does 1d6 fire damage per caster level. We can't just assume that that damage bypasses fire resistance, although some forms of fire do. Why? Because the spell description does not say that it does so.

Polymorph does not state that it increases size. It is not a magical effect which increases size. Anyone who wishes to say it is, justify:

Elf wizard casts polymorph. Polymorphs into a wolf.
Elf wizard casts polymorph. Polymorphs into a halfling.

Does the spell increase size in either of these cases?
No.
Because the magical effect isn't "Increases size category". Spells which do that?

SAY that they do that.

[kardar233]

That doesn't make sense. If Polymorph is setting it to a specific value, which is larger than the previous size, it is increasing size, regardless of whatever else it's doing. Just because the spell can, if used in a different fashion, result in a size that's the same or smaller is immaterial. If its current use results in a larger size, that's a magical effect that increases size.

The stacking limit doesn't specify anything about absolute or relative size changes; it simply applies to all magical effects.

An effect that sets the size of a creature IMO isn't classified as a size-increasing effect even if the new size is larger than the other. It's a different operation even if it ends with a similar result. That's my rationalization of my instant assumption that the effects would stack.

[candycorn]

More or less. It is entirely changing your body, such that it is not your body any more. Per the spell entry, you actually assume a new form.

What does that mean?

Well, if I buy a new car, I get a car that I did not have before.
If I assume a new role in business negotiations, I am filling a role that I did not fill before.

If I assume a new form, I take a form that I did not have before.

This isn't taking your current form and slapping a few racial abilities on it.

It is taking a brand new form, giving it to you, and retaining a few features from your old form. This new form has a size. You become that size. But you don't compare the size of your old form to the size of the new form, any more than you'd say your Ford Focus grew because you bought a Mack Truck.

You may have a bigger car, but it didn't grow.

And regardless, there is no possible way that any interpretation could prevent PaO from working with Righteous Might, since PaO very explicitly states that you become a new creature. Not "assume form". Not "increase size category". You are a new creature. That means you are no longer the old creature. Not a size increase. You're buying a new car.

[Curmudgeon]

An effect that sets the size of a creature IMO isn't classified as a size-increasing effect even if the new size is larger than the other.
I don't know any place in the RAW which includes "classified as" as necessary for the size increase rule. It's just a simple blanket ban against more than one magical effect increasing size, regardless of "classification".

[Forged Fury]

But that's exactly what you are doing when you somehow decide "directly" should be inserted. I'm just reading the rules as they're actually written. :smallconfused:
Actually, when someone prephases a statement with "To me" (see above), it generally makes it a statement of opinion rather than fact, no? I'm not one to claim that RAW can only be interpreted in the way I want it interpreted.

[Forsaker]

More or less. It is entirely changing your body, such that it is not your body any more. Per the spell entry, you actually assume a new form.

What does that mean?

Well, if I buy a new car, I get a car that I did not have before.
If I assume a new role in business negotiations, I am filling a role that I did not fill before.

If I assume a new form, I take a form that I did not have before.

This isn't taking your current form and slapping a few racial abilities on it.

It is taking a brand new form, giving it to you, and retaining a few features from your old form. This new form has a size. You become that size. But you don't compare the size of your old form to the size of the new form, any more than you'd say your Ford Focus grew because you bought a Mack Truck.

You may have a bigger car, but it didn't grow.

And regardless, there is no possible way that any interpretation could prevent PaO from working with Righteous Might, since PaO very explicitly states that you become a new creature. Not "assume form". Not "increase size category". You are a new creature. That means you are no longer the old creature. Not a size increase. You're buying a new car.

I agree completly.

[ShurikVch]

What about Expansion? It’s not magic, it’s psionic. Does it stack?
Raging halfling barbarian becomes one size category bigger. So what’s happen if he PaOed into a troll and then rage?

[Gwendol]

More or less. It is entirely changing your body, such that it is not your body any more. Per the spell entry, you actually assume a new form.

And regardless, there is no possible way that any interpretation could prevent PaO from working with Righteous Might, since PaO very explicitly states that you become a new creature. Not "assume form". Not "increase size category". You are a new creature. That means you are no longer the old creature. Not a size increase. You're buying a new car.

Not really. It is magic and you do increase in size (once the polymorph spell ends, you revert to your regular size). They don't stack. That said, if you had the powerful build racial feature, you can be treated as a creature one size category larger when under the influence of Righteous Might, as per the description of powerful build.

[Curmudgeon]

What about Expansion? It’s not magic, it’s psionic. Does it stack?
It's all treated the same, so it doesn't stack.
Combining Psionic And Magical Effects

The default rule for the interaction of psionics and magic is simple: Powers interact with spells and spells interact with powers in the same way a spell or normal spell-like ability interacts with another spell or spell-like ability. This is known as psionics-magic transparency. See the full rule explanation here (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/psionicPowersOverview.htm#combiningPsionicAndMagic alEffects).

[Person_Man]

Out of curiosity, does anyone actually use Polymorph? We talk about it all of the time in a theoretical way. But because it's easily one of the most abusable spells out there (even before you stack other buffs on top of it), it's one of the few things I've ever outright banned, though more recently I just let players know that if they use it they can expect much more difficult encounters to compensate for it, which has worked out fairly well.

[Xtomjames]

Sorry, no, they Don't stack. While yes everyone is correct that Polymorph isn't a Size increasing spell on purpose, it qualifies as ANOTHER spell affect that CAN or HAS increased the size of the targeted creature.


Multiple magical effects that increase
size do not stack, which means (among
other things) that you can’t use a second
casting of this spell to further increase
your size while you are still under the
effect of the first casting.

My emphasis added. It doesn't specify any one type of magical effect that increases size, even though it later refers to its self as an example. Because Polymorph is an active magical effect which may or may not have affected your size the spell cannot stack on top of it.

[SamBurke]

Polymorph does not change your base race, it merely grants a subset of the racial traits of the chosen race. Actually changing your base race would take a ritual of some sort from Savage Species or a Reincarnate spell, and it would involve gaining the appropriate level adjustment and racial hit dice.

A human Polymorphed into a War Troll is still a human with a spell on him, not a War Troll. He does not have a War Troll's regeneration, is probably lacking some other racial traits, does have a human's bonus feat and skill points, does not have a War Troll's racial hit dice and level adjustment, and if hit by Dispel Magic he turns fully back into a human.

PAO. PAO. Congratulations, you are now a Troll in every way, shape, and form. PERMANENTLY. (Note; by way/shape/form, I am not implying he gains regen or whatnot, just pointing out that it's permanent, and he effectively IS a troll.)

[Douglas]

PAO. PAO. Congratulations, you are now a Troll in every way, shape, and form. PERMANENTLY. (Note; by way/shape/form, I am not implying he gains regen or whatnot, just pointing out that it's permanent, and he effectively IS a troll.)
Yes, it's permanent. That means the spell is still in effect, is still subject to Dispel Magic, is still subject to spell stacking rules, etc.

To be exempt from those concerns it would have to be instantaneous, not permanent.

[Curmudgeon]

PAO. PAO. Congratulations, you are now a Troll in every way, shape, and form. PERMANENTLY.
Where did you find an exception in the rules to allow stacking this spell with itself? The second casting replaces the first one, exactly as if that first spell was never cast. You're not allowed to stack even a portion (ultimately the duration part, in this case) of the same magical effect.

Your congratulations are premature. See the treatment of "Same Effect with Differing Results" on page 172 of Player's Handbook.

[Talya]

There is a difference between changing your size, and increasing your size.

A "size increase" boosts your size to some other size, relative to your original size. Multiple magical effects that cause a "size increase" do not stack.

Changing your size, by taking the form of a creature larger or smaller than you, is not a size increase or size decrease. It is not related to your original size. You simply have a new size.

Therefore, they stack.

[Xtomjames]

There is a difference between changing your size, and increasing your size.

A "size increase" boosts your size to some other size, relative to your original size. Multiple magical effects that cause a "size increase" do not stack.

Changing your size, by taking the form of a creature larger or smaller than you, is not a size increase or size decrease. It is not related to your original size. You simply have a new size.

Therefore, they stack.
Um, no, there is no discernible difference in D&D 3.5 by way of what you've said, changing your size by Increasing it changes your size category relative to your original one. Any spell that does this is an Active Magical Effect that doesn't stack with Righteous Might.

Polymorph changes your size by changing your creature type. It is thus an increase or decrease in your size. This is regardless of the end result of being a different creature. The wording of the spell is that ANY magical effect that increases your size does not stack with Righteous Might.

In fact except for your assertion that there is a difference, what you've described has NO difference between the two descriptions of the same thing. It's a fallacious argument: logical fallacy.

**
Explaining the semantics: Polymorph is a Magical Effect (that is, a Spell), if used to Increase your size by changing into a creature a size category larger than you, it cannot stack with Righteous Might. It counts as a magical effect that increased your size. Your base size does not change with Polymorph, your base size is what ever your base creature is.

Polymorph ironically will stack if you remain your same size or decrease in size, because the spell Righteous Might operates off of your BASE size. Though by a strict RAW reading It wouldn't stack in general regardless of your size change.

[Dusk Eclipse]

Out of curiosity, does anyone actually use Polymorph? We talk about it all of the time in a theoretical way. But because it's easily one of the most abusable spells out there (even before you stack other buffs on top of it), it's one of the few things I've ever outright banned, though more recently I just let players know that if they use it they can expect much more difficult encounters to compensate for it, which has worked out fairly well.

Well I once played a game where Shapechange was the trademark spell of a a fellow player, never really posed a problem as all the players were in a similar league ( and the DM didn't let him gain inherent casting; but I still don't know if that was a houserule or the actual RAW). And in a pbp the DM has already greenlighted for me as long as I don't abuse it (I am playing a Gish); but since the game hasn't started I don't know what would constitute an abuse.

[Big Fau]

Out of curiosity, does anyone actually use Polymorph? We talk about it all of the time in a theoretical way. But because it's easily one of the most abusable spells out there (even before you stack other buffs on top of it), it's one of the few things I've ever outright banned, though more recently I just let players know that if they use it they can expect much more difficult encounters to compensate for it, which has worked out fairly well.

I made extensive use of Alter Self and Dragonic Polymorph when I played a Sublime Chord, but I never actually learned Polymorph itself.

Alter Self ended up being little more than an AC/Str/Dex buff with optional Fly speed, whereas Dragonic ended up being about the same as Divine Power with more buffs. It turned my low-Str Bard into a fairly decent combatant, not that I needed it when I used DFI.

[Talya]

Alter Self ended up being little more than an AC/Str/Dex buff with optional Fly speed, whereas Dragonic ended up being about the same as Divine Power with more buffs. It turned my low-Str Bard into a fairly decent combatant, not that I needed it when I used DFI.

Alter Self doesn't change your ability scores. Armor class, movement modes, racial skill bonuses, yes. Ability scores, no.

[Keld Denar]

Polymorph is:

A) A magical effect? Yes
B) Can result in an increase in size? Yes

Therefore, its a magical effect that changes(increases) your size. There is no difference between increasing your size and changing your size to an increased value, no matter how you phrase it.

[Pigkappa]

{Scrubbed}

[Hirax]

Polymorph+righteous might still isn't a bad combo. Even if you don't get the additional size increase, you still get all the other stat bumps. Or hell, polymorph into a sun giant, then cast giant size if you're able. Voila, 69 base strength for the spell durations (if you can hit the top CL threshold). Now start throwing on rages and whatever the best enhancement bonus you can muster.

[candycorn]

{Scrub the post, scrub the quote}

"You have a new car. Your new car is bigger than the former one. But your car's size hasn't increased."

This is basic logic.

New form does not equal old form.
Base Form = medium.
New Form = Large.

Base form did not increase size. You simply replace old form with new. If new form is bigger than the old one, then fantastic.

But it didn't increase your size, any more than your car gets bigger when you hop out of a datsun and into a hummer. It doesn't. The entire car changes to a different car. It doesn't get bigger.

[Keld Denar]

But thats not accurate. You aren't getting a new car. You are turning your Ford Fiesta into an F-150. Its still the same car (with VIN would be the same), just in a new shape. That shape is larger than the origional though, which means it got bigger. By magic. Thus: Magic that made it bigger. Thus: no stacking.

[candycorn]

But thats not accurate. You aren't getting a new car. You are turning your Ford Fiesta into an F-150. Its still the same car (with VIN would be the same), just in a new shape. That shape is larger than the origional though, which means it got bigger. By magic. Thus: Magic that made it bigger. Thus: no stacking.

Yes. It IS accurate. You gain a new form. New = Not the old one. Different.

If you turned your Ford Fiesta into a dump truck, it would most certainly NOT be the same car. I'm relatively sure the police officer who pulls you over and runs your plates won't think so. Every characteristic about the vehicle is different, except the driver. But it's not just "the same thing, garbled about a bit". It is, per the spell, which is far more RAW than anything you've said, NEW.

That's pretty much what polymorph does. It gives you a new form. Which means you don't look at the old one anymore. For all intents and purposes, it no longer exists, for the duration of the spell. It's not a size change. It's a form change.

It's like fear. If you gain immunity to mind affecting abilities, that also makes you immune to fear, because it's a mind affecting ability. However, effects which bypass fear immunity will not work, because it's not actually an immunity to fear. It's immunity to a broader category, which also happens to include that effect.

Just like polymorph, although your size is different than before, is not a size altering affect. That's the reason it doesn't have the text that is a rider on size altering effects. It is a broader category.

[Douglas]

Yes, you gain a new form. It's still you, it's still your body, and it's still your size that has changed.

[Keld Denar]

But your true form is still there. A True Seeing spell would reveal it. Thus, Polymorph is an effect that changes your form, rather than giving you a whole new form. A more accurate analogy might be taking a normal pickup truck and adding a lift kit, custom body, and massive tires to make it a monster truck. It's still a pickup truck, just more monstrous.

You are still who you are, just augmented. Contrast with something like Haunt Shift or True Mind Switch, which do actually make you 100% the creature you occupy. If you TMS into the body of a Huge Giant, the Expansion yourself up 2 sizes, you will be Colossal, or at least the body you are inhabiting will be.

Its a Transmutation, which means that it just recombinatates you. You are still you, no matter what the spell makes you look like. If it created a new you, and made you that you, then it would be Conjouration(Creation). So no matter how new you look, you are still you, and if that you is of a larger size than the normal you, via magic, then your size is magically increased.

[candycorn]

But your true form is still there. A True Seeing spell would reveal it.Really? If you were a human, and Polymorphed into wolf... And someone with true seeing saw you... Would you be unable to bite them?

Of course true seeing will reveal what you are. It shows the TRUE FORM of polymorphed creatures, per its text.

That means that the form you are in, is NOT your true form. Your true form did not change size. You got a new body, a new form. You don't become a water elemental if you drink too much water. You are not the old thing just because it makes up part of you.

Regardless of what back-alley logic you try, it does not change the fact that the form you are in is not your own. If it is not your own, it cannot be a change to your size, because it is not yours to begin with.


Its a Transmutation, which means that it just recombinatates you. You are still you, no matter what the spell makes you look like.Does that mean that, by RAW, if you eat a hamburger, you are a cow? I mean, you're just recombinating (is that even a defined game term?) the meat, right? And it's becoming part of you... So you're a cow.

Cheapest. Polymorph. Ever.

[Keld Denar]

You got a new body, a new form.

Where did this "new" body come from? I'm curious.

Also....Mooo!

[Big Fau]

Where did this "new" body come from? I'm curious.

Also....Mooo!

The factory, just like everyone else's. (http://idesigniphone.net/wallpapers/01693.jpg)

[Talya]

So, let's say you're playing a dragon.

Someone casts Bestow Curse upon you, using the alternate curse in Book of Vile Darkness, and advances you to the beginning of your next age category.

This now boosts your size from Large to Huge.

Does this mean you can no longer benefit from Righteous Might's size increase because a side effect of Bestow Curse's aging is that you've gotten a size category larger? Of course not!

Any changes to one's size caused by Polymorph are likewise not a magical size increase. The magical change is that you've become a troll. A side effect of having become a troll is that you are now large sized. The magic did not make you large, the magic made you a troll. A side effect of being a troll is that you are large. Your base size is large. Your size has not increased, you are the correct size for a troll. All the magic did was make you a troll. Ergo, righteous might and polymorph stack.

[Douglas]

Your size has not increased
This is manifestly false, as proven by 2 indisputable facts:
1) Before the spell was cast you were medium sized.
2) After the spell takes effect you are large sized.

[Talya]

This is manifestly false, as proven by 2 indisputable facts:
1) Before the spell was cast you were medium sized.
2) After the spell takes effect you are large sized.

Before the spell was cast, you were not a troll.

The polymorph magic does not boost your size. It turns you into something else. Any size changes are a side effect of having become something else. This is not a size increase. You cannot compare your new size to your size as whatever shape you had before. You can only compare it to the base size of the creature type you have turned into.

Let's take another example: You are a halfling. You die. A druid casts reincarnate upon you. You come back as a human. Now are you inelligible for righteous might's size increase? Before you were reincarnated, you were a halfling. You were small! You're trying to say righteous might shouldn't stack with reincarnate? Because Polymorph and Reincarnate do the same thing in this regard...they turn you into something else.

[Claudius Maximus]

Let's take another example: You are a halfling. You die. A druid casts reincarnate upon you. You come back as a human. Now are you inelligible for righteous might's size increase? Before you were reincarnated, you were a halfling. You were small! You're trying to say righteous might shouldn't stack with reincarnate? Because Polymorph and Reincarnate do the same thing in this regard...they turn you into something else.

This isn't analogous with douglas's assertion because Reincarnate is an instantaneous spell. It's a spell that ends up making you larger, but the increased size is not the result of an active magical effect, whereas the increases from Polymorph and Righteous Might are.

[Talya]

This isn't analogous with douglas's assertion because Reincarnate is an instantaneous spell. It's a spell that ends up making you larger, but the increased size is not an active magical effect, whereas Polymorph and Righteous Might are.

Nothing in the stacking rules cited mentions an "active" magical effect. This is not a criteria for whether or not they stack. While this is a difference in the way the spells work, it has nothing to do with their stackability. Like Polymorph, Reincarnate is a magical effect. Either changing a form this way counts as a magical increase in size, or it does not. If polymorph fails that test, so does reincarnate.

[Douglas]

The Combining Magical Effects (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/castingSpells.htm#combiningMagicalEffects) rules contain several references to active spells, and specifically calls out instantaneous spells as stacking fully. If there is no spell currently active then there is nothing to invoke the spell stacking rules with.

A halfling reincarnated as a human is not a halfling with a spell on him, he is genuinely in full measure a human. Dispel Magic does nothing to him, even Antimagic Field is irrelevant, and there is no lingering magical effect maintaining a size increase that might conflict with other spells.

[candycorn]

Nothing in the stacking rules cited mentions an "active" magical effect. This is not a criteria for whether or not they stack. While this is a difference in the way the spells work, it has nothing to do with their stackability. Like Polymorph, Reincarnate is a magical effect. Either changing a form this way counts as a magical increase in size, or it does not. If polymorph fails that test, so does reincarnate.

This is actually true. The effect need not be currently active. It only need be magical in origin. If an instantaneous magical effect increases your size, and another effect later increases your size, that is still, by Keld's definition, two magical effects that have increased your size.

Therefore, any small creature that is Reincarnated would be ineligible for any size increase.



This is manifestly false, as proven by 2 indisputable facts:
1) Before the spell was cast you were medium sized.
2) After the spell takes effect you are large sized.
I cast Reduce Person on a human. He is now small.
I cast Antimagic Field, while next to that human.

1) Before the spell (Antimagic Field) was cast, the Human was small size.
2) After the spell takes effect, the human is medium size.

Poof! Antimagic Field is now a magical effect that increases that human's size, by the very two indisputable facts you used. The same argument can justify Dispel Magic.

Your facts, while true, do not provide unassailable evidence that your allegation is correct.

[Talya]

The Combining Magical Effects (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/castingSpells.htm#combiningMagicalEffects) rules contain several references to active spells, and specifically calls out instantaneous spells as stacking fully. If there is no spell currently active then there is nothing to invoke the spell stacking rules with.


Your cited rules do not spell out what you are saying they do. There's nothing in there that talks about spells with instantaneous effects stacking with those that have continuous effects. (The only place instantaneous effects are mentioned at all is in saying that instantaneous spells stack with each other.)

I believe you are reaching beyond raw to try to claim righteous might and polymorph do not stack. Polymorph is NEVER a size increase. A size increase always maintains your current form and simply makes it larger. A polymorph spell changes you into something else entirely. As someone else stated earlier, if you turn a car into a jumbo jet, you did not increase the size of the car. There is no more car, at least for the time being. There is a jumbo jet instead. These two things are not directly comparable, one is not the other.

[Keld Denar]

There is a difference. Reincarnation fabricates a new body for your soul to inhabit. Just like I mentioned that if you True Mind Switched into something large or larger, you are no longer you. You are whatever you have become. With Polymorph, you are still you, you are just shaped differently. It's you, and a magically transformed you.

You can't separate the large and the troll. You are a large troll. Large is larger than the original you, which was medium. Thus, a magical effect increases your size.

[candycorn]

There is a difference. Reincarnation fabricates a new body for your soul to inhabit. Just like I mentioned that if you True Mind Switched into something large or larger, you are no longer you. You are whatever you have become. With Polymorph, you are still you, you are just shaped differently. It's you, and a magically transformed you.

You can't separate the large and the troll. You are a large troll. Large is larger than the original you, which was medium. Thus, a magical effect increases your size.

Reincarnate is no less you than polymorph. You keep your class levels, your knowledge, your experience, everything about you that makes you, YOU. You keep the mental, and adopt the physical.

You can't seperate the type from the size. If polymorph is "you" regardless of, by the rules, giving you a NEW FORM. That the new form is different from the old form in many ways, including size, is irrelevant.

If your form is new, then it is not what it was before. True seeing can see the reality behind the magic, but that doesn't change the fact that you're no more "you" than if you reincarnated. You take on the physical characteristics of the new race.

There is no hard and fast guideline for when "you" are "you" and when "you" are no longer "you". You say that reincarnate and mind switch make "you" no longer "you".

I submit that your view on when "you" are and are not actually "you" is every bit as subjective as any other view. If one surmises that "you" are "you" unless your true name changes, then guess what? Now Dispel Magic, Antimagic Field, Polymorph, Reincarnate, Shapechange, Alter Self, and a host of other effects can all be "magic effects that increase your size", by your definition.

Your view is that the materials must change, or it's the same thing still. If I fabricate trees into a bridge, they're still trees. No, they're not. They may have the same components, and those components may have been altered by the magic, but they are no longer the same thing. At best, they are related.

My view is that "increase size category" is a term explicitly spelled out when it happens. Changing the fundamental nature of your body is no more a size alteration... than wood is still a tree after it's been chopped, planed, sanded, treated, stained, and hammered into the keel of a ship.

You can't fundamentally change something, and claim it is the same. One or two alterations? Ok. Rewriting everything? No.

[Pigkappa]

"Size" is not an object as a car or anything else. In D&D, every creature as a "size" at any moment, and it can be perfectly represented as a number. (0 = medium, 1 = large, 2 = huge, -1 = small)

Therefore, you can always compare your size now with your size two rounds ago. And determine whether the relative difference is caused by a spell.

Saying that "you have a new size, not a bigger size" makes no sense, if your size now is bigger than it was 1 round ago.

[ShurikVch]

And what about "Halfling rage" from Dragon 342?
It's not magic, it's (ex)
Does "troll-morphed" raging tribal halfling barbarian treated as huge "whenever doing so would be beneficial" and his "size actually increased slightly"?
"Bigger Than Life"(ex) description says "this ability has no further impact" if halfling actually gets bigger (as by spell). But description of "Halfling rage" doesn't say anything similar.
Also, does it stack with RM/enlarge/expand?

[candycorn]

"Size" is not an object as a car or anything else. In D&D, every creature as a "size" at any moment, and it can be perfectly represented as a number. (0 = medium, 1 = large, 2 = huge, -1 = small)

Therefore, you can always compare your size now with your size two rounds ago. And determine whether the relative difference is caused by a spell.

Saying that "you have a new size, not a bigger size" makes no sense, if your size now is bigger than it was 1 round ago.

Ok. So, let's do that.

I'm a halfling. I'm under the effect of Reduce Person.
A bit later, a wizard casts Dispel Magic on me.
I've gone from tiny (-2) to small (-1).
That relative difference was caused by a spell (Dispel Magic).

Therefore, by your logic, Dispel Magic is size altering magic.

[Douglas]

Ok. So, let's do that.

I'm a halfling. I'm under the effect of Reduce Person.
A bit later, a wizard casts Dispel Magic on me.
I've gone from tiny (-2) to small (-1).
That relative difference was caused by a spell (Dispel Magic).

Therefore, by your logic, Dispel Magic is size altering magic.
The difference there is that the size change is coming from Reduce Person, not Dispel Magic. Yes, Dispel Magic is the before-and-after event, but the size change is the result of it interacting with another spell, not an effect of Dispel Magic on its own.

[candycorn]

The difference there is that the size change is coming from Reduce Person, not Dispel Magic. Yes, Dispel Magic is the before-and-after event, but the size change is the result of it interacting with another spell, not an effect of Dispel Magic on its own.

No. Dispel Magic's Magical Effect resulted in the creature going from tiny to small. The argument was that the ONLY DETERMINING FACTOR is "does the effect of a spell alter a creature's size?"

To whit, the answer is yes. Therefore, by the criteria you gave, Dispel Magic's effect altered the creature's size, and therefore, that character will forever be unable to benefit from a magical size increase.

See what happens when we try to blindly put absolutes down?

A polymorph spell functions identically when it turns a creature into a troll. Whether you're an ogre or a halfling, you turn into a troll. That troll has particular characteristics. To say that you can choose the same spell, and the same effect, and it resolves differently, due to the size of the target, despite no mention of that size restriction in the spell?

That's trying to apply a blind absolute (any spell whose effect results in a change to a creature's size is a size altering spell) in an nonsensical manner (spells which don't say that they increase/decrease size now do?), just as trying to say that Dispel Magic is a size altering effect, when it dispels other spells which alter size.

This is why blind absolutes that aren't backed up by RAW are bad.

Here's my blind absolute: "A "spell that increases size" is a spell which states in its description that it "increases size". A "spell that decreases size" is a spell which states in its description that it "decreases size". If it does not state that it does so, it does not. Just as we do not assume that fireballs also do 33d6 cold and acid damage, because the spell effect does not say it does.

Spell effects do what they say. No more. No less. A size altering spell will point out the size alteration. Causing the creature to be a different size after casting is, by itself, not enough. It does not take into account all the factors. And one of those factors is "does the spell state that it increases or decreases a size category".

[Keld Denar]

Polymorph is based on Alter Self.

You assume the form of a creature <snip> within one size category of your normal size.

Looks like it specifically says that it changes your size.

[Pigkappa]

A bit later, a wizard casts Dispel Magic on me.

"Multiple magical effects that increase size do not stack."

In your example, there are no magical effects going on. Dispel Magic is an instantaneous spell. From the SRD:



If the spell creates an effect, the effect lasts for the duration.
So, Dispel Magic is a spell which resulted in a size increase, but its effect is immediately over. You just keep having the same size because Reduce Person is over too, now.

[candycorn]

Correct. It is an instantaneous magical effect. That instantaneous magical effect increased your size. There is no duration on that size increase, as it is a permanent change.

You're arguing that an instantaneous magical effect cannot have lasting effects.

Take Joe Fighter. He has 37 HP. He gets hit for 17 damage. Someone then casts cure light wounds on him, healing for 11 hp. Now, the magical effect is over, but it had an effect upon him. Specifically, he's at 31 hp, not 20.

Take Joe Rogue. He is a small creature. He gets a reduce person cast upon him. He becomes tiny. An opposing spellcaster casts an area dispel, dispelling the reduce person. Joe becomes small again. Barring other magic, Joe will forever be size category "small".

By the standard you use for polymorph, this is an instantaneous magical effect that increased Joe's size.

Multiple magical effects that increase size do not stack
See that? It does not state that the magical effect that increases Joe's must be active or ongoing. Instantaneous magical effects still qualify. If there is a magical effect, and that effect increases a creature's size, regardless of duration, then it does not stack with anything else... By the same standard you use for Polymorph, Dispel Magic is a size altering magical effect, and would thus not stack with any magical other size increase.

[Pigkappa]

Instantaneous

The spell energy comes and goes the instant the spell is cast, though the consequences might be long-lasting.


If the spell affects creatures directly the result travels with the subjects for the spell’s duration. If the spell creates an effect, the effect lasts for the duration.

By RAW, even reading this in a stupid way, the effect ceases immediately. Its consequences last longer, but they are consequences, not the effect.




You're arguing that an instantaneous magical effect cannot have lasting effects.

I'm not. I'm saying that here "effect" has a definite meaning which is different from the long-lasting consequences. I know this is extremely stupid, but it's just what you are doing with your "the effect is size-increasing only if the word combination "size increase" appear in the text". But we have no "size increase" section in the SRD, while there's a paragraph named "Subjects, Effects, and Areas".



By your line of reasoning, you can have a lot of annoying things happen. Suppose a cloaker (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/cloaker.htm) uses its fear ability versus a Paladin. There's nothing in the description of this ability which says this is a "Fear effect". So, do you think the Paladin isn't immune to this ability for this reason?

[Safety Sword]

I can't believe this got to 3 pages.

You can't stack Polymorph with Righteous Might. They are both magical effects that increase your size.

I would submit that it's just a bad wording in PoA that is causing the issues here. Something that meets the "permanent" criteria for the spell in the table still has Polymorph magic lingering on it to hold it's (new) form. You can dispel it. True seeing will see through it.

Instead of permanent they probably should have used "effectively permanent", meaning, don't worry about it, it's a long long time.

But if they made everything clear, what would we have to argue about? :smallbiggrin: