Constructing a White Dragon Fight

[Dralnu]

My RL group has only fought a single dragon in three years of DnD gaming. I've decided to throw at them a white dragon next week. I want it to be a fight they'll remember.

The Scenario: A white dragon has made a pact with a tribe of frost giants. The dragon offers its hatchlings as minions and produces half-dragons for the giants, while the giants offer a large percentage of their wealth from conquests to bling up its lair. The PCs are here to kill the dragon.

The Party: The adventuring group is four lvl 8's and overall a solid tier 3 in power:
Dunsten, Human Barbarian 2 / Warblade 6: Tank of the group. Smasher of the group. Likes the Bonecrusher maneuver, a lot. Often does around 40-50 damage on his swings and ignores DR. Has a toned down version of the Mineral Warrior template (DR 2, Natural Armor +2)

Jimmy, Halfling Rogue 5 / Assassin 3: Sneaky scout, silent killer, and trap disabler. Uses his anklet of translocation and rogue's blade to teleport all over the place.

Don, Human Favored Soul 8: Support. Likes combat control. Favorite spell is Summon Undead II for skeletal owlbears. Also likes Dispel Magic. Can fly.

Syn, Drow Scout 8: Sneakiest scout of the group. Often hides / moves silently / spots / listens for 30ish. Has a +1 Seeking Spellstoring Composite Bow that usually holds dispel magic.

The Encounter: Here's where I need help. This is what I've got so far.

Entrance:
- guarded by frost giants and/or half-dragons
- - 3 varieties (frostburn p133)
- 1 variety (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Frost_Giant)

My idea for now is 2 Half-Dragon Frost Giant guards. (CR 11 each)

Inside:
- Mature Adult (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/dragonTrue.htm) White Dragon (CR 12)
- treasure (Draconomicon p283)
-2 Ice Golems (CR 9 each) (frostburn p138)
- deep ice pits (50ft, 5d6 fall damage)

White Dragon Spells known:
1st: Silent Image, Alarm, Something

The dragon has carved out its lair inside a glacier. The initial path opens up into a large area filled with pits (25x25ft.) and pillars of ice (5x5) connecting the floor to the cave ceiling. Swirling inside of each ice pillar are strange gases. Some ice pits contain the remnants of fallen heroes. One of the frozen remains holds an (insert useful anti-dragon item here).

Two Ice Golems are "hidden" in the ice floor beside the pits. When the PCs get close enough, the Ice Golems activate and try to bull rush anyone into the pits.

Once the PCs are engaged, the dragon shows up from above and uses its breath attack and spells from a safe distance. The breath attack doesn't harm the cold-immune golems.

Tactics:
- Ice Golems try to bull rush PCs into the pits and grapple them to prevent them from attacking the dragon
- Dragon uses Fog Cloud and its breath attack from a safe distance
- when reduced to low hp, white dragon goes into a frenzy and makes physical attacks

That's what I got so far. Any help appreciated!

[*.*.*.*]

If they don't fight intelligently, this could easily be a TPK. I don't see the assassin or the scout offering a lot to this encounter. With a combo of the half-dragon giants and the actual dragon, this will be a hard fight.



That said, it sounds INCREDIBLY fun

[Divide by Zero]

Have the dragon paint itself red so they prepare the wrong energy protection.

[chainer1216]

when i sent my group after a white dragon, i made sure the lair was completely covered in ice. so when the dragon uses its spellcasting to fireball them, it melts the ice beneath theyre feet, and then uses its cold breath to refreeze the water.

my group was a bit higher level than them, so i played with my dragons feats, specifically quicken and breath shape: cone, so when they got quickened fireballed they actually were completely submerged in the water and then it was frozen over, trapping them (for awhile), but in you're case, maybe it'll just be theyre feet traped, and only if they failed the reflex save Vs the cold breath.

[Ranos]

If the party plays it smart and uses its scout to prepare ambushes and surprise attacks and maybe even traps, they can win. In a frontal assault, unless the dragon starts acting like a complete moron, they'll probably lose.

Prepare spells that are okay, but not overwhelmingly good. You probably don't want wings of cover/flurry for example, unless you really want your players dead. And of course, blasting spells are pretty much unecessary, since, well, dragon. You've got damage covered. Basic spells like dispel, summon spells, protection spells like mirror image, all that should help. I also like blood wind on a dragon. When you can't use your breath weapon for some reason (like when everyone has energy resistance up and you can't/don't want to use a dispel), the ability to use your natural weapons at range is extremely useful.

[myancey]

If they don't fight intelligently, this could easily be a TPK. I don't see the assassin or the scout offering a lot to this encounter. With a combo of the half-dragon giants and the actual dragon, this will be a hard fight.

That said, it sounds INCREDIBLY fun

I agree completely. You'll want to watch this scenario. A CR11 is meant for a stereotypical group of 4 adventurers at 11th level. Having a CR15 dragon as the 2nd part of this encounter is going to massacre them.

[OrganicGolem]

I'm sorry, white dragons are such pushovers... so going +3 on the CR with (what appears to be) an optimized party is fine... 4 might be pushing it, but add enough obstacles for characters to hide behind and it should be fine.

[myancey]

I'm sorry, white dragons are such pushovers... so going +3 on the CR with (what appears to be) an optimized party is fine... 4 might be pushing it, but add enough obstacles for characters to hide behind and it should be fine.

White dragons might not be as cool as other dragons--but they've a cone of cold breath attack with a crazy 27 reflex save to avoid. Maybe the rogue and scout will be fine, with a crazy roll. 8d6 (24 avg.) might not seem like a lot, but it'll wreck the scout and rogue if they aren't careful.

Or the +27 to attack. That's always nice. Or the DR 10 with the 31 AC and 276 HP. Take your pick.

[Divide by Zero]

All dragons are more powerful than most other creatures of equal CR, and white dragons are no exception.

[Tvtyrant]

Have the two golems bullrush/grapple/trip the parties casters while the dragon flies around blowing ice on the mundanes. Have the dragon cast Fog Cloud when the first golem falls, and Freezing Fog when the second golem falls. When the dragon is about to die (100 hp left) it begins full attacking in melee till it dies.

[Hiro Protagonest]

All dragons are more powerful than most other creatures of equal CR, and white dragons are no exception.

Yes. White dragons are weak compared to other dragons, while non-dragons are weak compared to any dragon.

[myancey]

Yes. White dragons are weak compared to other dragons, while non-dragons are weak compared to any dragon.

I completely agree. As I had mentioned near the top--this dragon alone would likely wreck the party. The CR system is sometimes tough to go by--especially since the ease 3.5 offers in optimization. But look at it this way.

The main fighter of the group, the barbarian warblade, has what...a plus +14 to attack total? He'd need to roll 17 and up to hit the thing. And he better hope he deals more than 10 damage.

And the rogue will have a max of 48HP, right? That means dead in 2 rounds.

[Runestar]

Yes. White dragons are weak compared to other dragons, while non-dragons are weak compared to any dragon.

Not entirely true.

They are the weakest if you go strictly by stats according to age category. But go with cr, and you find that they can actually give black and blue dragons a run for their money. What they lack in terms of spellcasting and breath weapon damage, they make up through sheer HD, meaning they are easily just as brutish, if not more, than even red dragons.

For example, a 36HD white dragon is cr21. The same 36HD blue dragon is cr23.

It may be more worth it to use the xorvintaal variant in MM5. Since white dragons have such weak spellcasting anyways, may as well trade them out for extra combat-related abilities. They lose comparatively less compared to other stronger dragons such as reds.

With regards to the OP's encounter, I agree that a cr15 dragon alone would be too much of a match for a group of 8th lv PCs, optimised or no.

I am not sure how to modify this encounter appropriately, but I did find this cliffhanger on the wotc website, which may be of some use to you.

http://www.wizards.com/dnd/files/Cliff_Ransom.pdf

I would recommend using a mature adult white (cr12) instead.

[Dralnu]

Yeah, I may be heading towards a TPK with this route. I should probably tone it down and find a way to make the scout and assassin not feel useless.

The entrance fight should be easy for them if I just make it two guards that they can easily ambush and kill. Even if I'm crafty and make them hidden in snow, the scout's insane +30 spot checks will find it.

The dragon fight.. I picked golems as a way of getting the PCs into the pit and being immune to cold for when the dragon uses the breath attack. But constructs will make the assassin cry, so maybe they should be swapped for something living?

The dragon itself, is it doable if it's a mature adult (CR 12)? No more freezing fog and less spells. It's AC is still a very high 28 though. I guess I can make it even younger, but since I want the dragon to be Huge then I'll have it cast Enlarge Person.

Not sure how else to make it more fair for this party. I want it to be TOUGH but not a TPK.



I am not sure how to modify this encounter appropriately, but I did find this cliffhanger on the wotc website, which may be of some use to you.

http://www.wizards.com/dnd/files/Cliff_Ransom.pdf

I would recommend using a mature adult white (cr12) instead.

Neat, thanks! Reading it now.

[Runestar]

I guess I can make it even younger, but since I want the dragon to be Huge then I'll have it cast Enlarge Person.

Enlarge person technically won't work on dragons (or any non-humanoid) for that matter. One way would be to get an adult white and tack on 4 lvs of psywarrior (+2cr if treated as non-associated). You get expansion and psionic pounce.

[Ranos]

Or just slap on an universal item of 1/day expansion. No need to get levels when you have money.

[Godskook]

I'm sorry, white dragons are such pushovers... so going +3 on the CR with (what appears to be) an optimized party is fine... 4 might be pushing it, but add enough obstacles for characters to hide behind and it should be fine.

I sent a CR 4 White Dragon after a ECL 2-3 party, and could've tpk'ed them had I not advised the wizard ooc to grab resist energy when he leveled and then spread the damage around during the battle.

@OP, I would not throw a CR 15 dragon of any color at a ECL 8 party unless tier 1 or 2 was being optimized.

[Dralnu]

I changed the dragon to mature adult (cr 12) and updated the battle area so it's a little more dynamic and flavorful. I was considering placing Stinking Clouds inside the ice pillars (the dragon could disperse it with gust of wind) but that's a tad too cruel. :smallbiggrin:

Is the encounter still too hard? I could drop a golem and/or lower the dragon's age again and compensate by giving it an expansion 1/day custom item to keep it Huge and intimidating.

Thanks again for the pdf, Runestar. It's an excellent little adventure and I'm borrowing the area layout and some other ideas from it.