World's Largest Dungeon

[Kesnit]

My fiancee recently reacquired this module and is planning to run it in the near future. She is convinced Wizards and Clerics are nerfed because teleportation (other than line-of-sight) and summoning do not work, extra-dimensional spaces (like Bag of Holding or Rope Trick) cause horrible things to happen, and the ceilings are too low for flying to be effective. (Druids are banned for fluff reasons.) As far as I know, the Polymorph line still works, which I know is a big point of power for casters.

I think they will still be more powerful than she expects. I could be wrong because I don't know what level of optimization the group will go with. (We've not played 3.5 together.)

Am I right in thinking that Tier 1 casters will still be extremely powerful, even with the rules of the WLD? We will be starting at LVL 5, and she wants to get us to 10 or so. (Obviously, we're only running part of the dungeon.)

[Cog]

Without defenses like Rope Trick, the 15 minute workday is a little shot. Other than that, as long as the character is built knowing these rules will be in place, they'll have plenty to do.

[Doc Roc]

Without defenses like Rope Trick, the 15 minute workday is a little shot. Other than that, as long as the character is built knowing these rules will be in place, they'll have plenty to do.

Agree with this. It's just a question of resource management. You're going to have to go with a controller build.

[Tvtyrant]

Or a hyper-DC boosted save-or-die specialist. :P

[Doc Roc]

Or a hyper-DC boosted save-or-die specialist. :P

I believe WLD runs from 1st, which makes a DC boost approach a bit problematic. Once you can get into tainted scholar, of course, the world cracks beneath your feat, the great mountains tremble, and the birds forget their song.

Or, you know, your could let your Fiancée be right and preserve your sanity in the process.

Bro-Tip: Lightning Leap is not a teleportation spell.

[Vortling]

None of the listed restrictions appear like they would affect DMM Persist Cleric much, if at all. You'd have to manage your healing resources a little more tightly, but that's about it.

[Mordokai]

Tier 1 is Tier 1 for reason. While I may have my reservations about the whole tier system, wizards and druids are still going to do a lot better than fighters and rogues. Even if you limit WLD to Core only, as authors seem to have had in mind.

I have WLD in my possession and from what I've seen, party of all wizards would do quite well. Sure, they would have some hardship in starting regions, but once(if?) they got to region... G, they would more than catch up.

[Tvtyrant]

I believe WLD runs from 1st, which makes a DC boost approach a bit problematic. Once you can get into tainted scholar, of course, the world cracks beneath your feat, the great mountains tremble, and the birds forget their song.

Or, you know, your could let your Fiancée be right and preserve your sanity in the process.

Hmmm, yeah from level 1 that would be a problem. As always I fall back upon Doc Roc's advice and suggest control build.

[Mordokai]

Oh and druids banned... they are not banned. They are just advised against. Much as wizards.

[OrganicGolem]

Oh man, I've wanted to run this dungeon from start to finish forever... none of my players are interested in it though. In any case sounds like a wizard should just prohibit conjuration altogether since half the spells don't work.

[Tvtyrant]

Transmutation wizards FTW.

[Doc Roc]

Oh man, I've wanted to run this dungeon from start to finish forever... none of my players are interested in it though. In any case sounds like a wizard should just prohibit conjuration altogether since half the spells don't work.

I'm sorry, but I think I have to disagree. It's been ages since I looked at the module, but I'd bet dollars to donuts that your life will still be better with conj than without.

[Mordokai]

Especially since conjuration is not just summoning.

[Greenish]

Oh and druids banned... they are not banned. They are just advised against. Much as wizards.Advised against because the creators of the dungeon felt they'd be at too great a disadvantage, if my memory serves. :smallcool:

Oh man, I've wanted to run this dungeon from start to finish forever... none of my players are interested in it though. In any case sounds like a wizard should just prohibit conjuration altogether since half the spells don't work.Even the half that's left is better than some schools. :smalltongue:

[Mordokai]

Advised against because the creators of the dungeon felt they'd be at too great a disadvantage, if my memory serves. :smallcool:

Your memory serves well enough. Unfortunately, it just shows how little creators know about their own creations.

[Greenish]

Your memory serves well enough. Unfortunately, it just shows how little creators know about their own creations.I don't know what they were thinking when they created the druid. Probably the same thing they were thinking when they later created the Planar Shepherd.

[Tvtyrant]

I don't know what they were thinking when they created the druid. Probably the same thing they were thinking when they later created the Planar Shepherd.

Rule of cool is totally worth it? "Turning into a Dire Tiger makes the Druid too weak, give it full casting and a Dire Mammoth to even things out for it" has got to be the greatest moment in history.

[Doc Roc]

Your memory serves well enough. Unfortunately, it just shows how little creators know about their own creations.

A mistake I will endlessly endeavor to avoid.

[OrganicGolem]

I dunno... I guess Im not as big a fan of transmutation as everyone else then... I don't see how a summonless/teleportless/etc transmutation sphere is better than any other sphere (particularly illusion, evocation, and necromancy... which are my favorite 3 in order)

[Greenish]

I dunno... I guess Im not as big a fan of transmutation as everyone else then... I don't see how a summonless/teleportless/etc transmutation sphere is better than any other sphere (particularly illusion, evocation, and necromancy... which are my favorite 3 in order)Sphere? Transmutation? What game/edition are you talking about?

[OrganicGolem]

uhh... I think my mind drifted into video games a bit while I was typing that and it came through... I'm still talking about conjuration

[Greenish]

Hmm, does conjuration have any good spells that aren't summoning/calling/teleportation, lets see…

1-3 level spells from core:

Mage Armour
Grease
Obscuring Mist
Web
Glitterdust
Fog Cloud
Sepia Snake Sigil
Stinking Cloud


Oh, fancy that, most of those are some of the best spells in the game.

[Edit]: Also Mage Hand and Message as cantrips. If you can't find use for those in a dungeon, you're not really trying.

[2.Edit]: Oh, handy, Phantom Steed is Conjuration (Creation). How about movement speed of 100' without using your own actions? (At level 5, and it gets better.)

[OrganicGolem]

Hmm, does conjuration have any good spells that aren't summoning/calling/teleportation, lets see…

1-3 level spells from core:

Mage Armour
Grease
Obscuring Mist
Web
Glitterdust
Fog Cloud
Sepia Snake Sigil
Stinking Cloud


Oh, fancy that, most of those are some of the best spells in the game.

[Edit]: Also Mage Hand and Message as cantrips. If you can't find use for those in a dungeon, you're not really trying.

[2.Edit]: Oh, handy, Phantom Steed is Conjuration (Creation). How about movement speed of 100' without using your own actions? (At level 5, and it gets better.)

It might just be me, but I think Mage Armor is great at low levels only really
Mage Hand is almost needed, but Hand of the mage (900 gp) takes care of that...
And off the top of my head: drow house insignia (Transmitting) is 500 gp, so sending then becomes unnessicary

The whole point about a barred school is you are losing some versatility, but if you already are losing some of conjuration why is not that big a deal to just be out with it?

[Greenish]

It might just be me, but I think Mage Armor is great at low levels only really
Mage Hand is almost needed, but Hand of the mage (900 gp) takes care of that...
And off the top of my head: drow house insignia (Transmitting) is 500 gp, so sending then becomes unnessicarySo? You're burning 1400 gp (and assuming the magic mart) to replicate a couple of cantrips?

There are still some serious heavyweights there, and if we're going out of core, I'd still rather ban evocation than conjuration. Necromancy vs. Conjuration is more close, but Necromancy has so much reductancy…

Illusion wins out on the limited conjuration (and obviously so does transmutation).


The whole point about a barred school is you are losing some versatility, but if you already are losing some of conjuration why is not that big a deal to just be out with it?Because even with the cuts, Conjuration is still one of the most versatile and useful schools in the game.

[OrganicGolem]

From the sound of it (and this rule does generally apply) its a matter of preference... evocation vs conjuration is definitely what I would be decided on in the same situation... and I'm more partial towards evocation in dungeon crawls at least.

In any case the point I was trying to get across is barring that school eliminates one of the major issues with playing wizards in this particular dungeon. I know that its like saying cutting your arm off takes care of that itch that won't go away, but it is true enough at least.

[Greenish]

From the sound of it (and this rule does generally apply) its a matter of preference...Which schools you want is a matter of preference. Which schools are most useful is something that can be evaluated somewhat objectively given certain parameters.

I'm more partial towards evocation in dungeon crawls at least.You play as you wish, but that the control from Conjuration's spells is much more efficient than evocation's signature blasting (even if evocation has some decent utility stuff too).


In any case the point I was trying to get across is barring that school eliminates one of the major issues with playing wizards in this particular dungeon. I know that its like saying cutting your arm off takes care of that itch that won't go away, but it is true enough at least.That's not a reason to say one should ban the school.

I might not go for focused specialist conjurer in WLD, but I'd hesitate before banning the school.

[gorfnab]

If you must play a wizard in WLD I recommend my "Easy Bake Wizard". Its a wizard that can work with VoP and Exalted Arcanist (if you go with Spontaneous Divination).



Elf, preferably Gray

Elf Wizard Racial Sub - Races of the Wild
Eidetic Spellcaster ACF - Dragon Magazine #357
Spontaneous Divination ACF - Complete Champion - Optional but great at higher levels
Collegiate Wizard feat - Complete Arcane

1st Level - 7+ Int mod 1st level spells known, all cantrips, 1 extra spell per day of highest level
No Familiar, No Scribe Scroll, No Spellbook

For a little cheese look into Domain Wizard from UA since it does stack with the Elf Wizard Racial Sub.

Note: Every level after 1st that advances wizard spellcasting gets you 5 spells known for free instead of the usual 2

Edit: If you're playing in Eberron, the feat Aerenal Arcanist (Player's Guide to Eberron) will net you an additional spell known per level netting you 8+Int spells at 1st level and 6 additional spells known every level after that.

[TroubleBrewing]

Its a wizard that can work with VoP and Exalted Arcanist (if you go with Spontaneous Divination).

Ugh. VoP is... so, so, so suboptimal. It's bad. It really is.

EDIT: Just looked again. "Can work with" is not the same as "is good with".

VoP might not be a bad idea in WLD, actually. You basically don't get loot beyond what you find on critters, you wouldn't need food, water, or sleep... For a wizard, not a bad choice.

[kestrel404]

Yeah, any class that CAN take VoP when it goes into the WLD, should take VoP. But that only applies if you're going in at level 1.

Wizard is actually closer to a tier 2 class going in, because they won't be able to acquire new spells without either getting them from party members or else having the dungeon hand them over (I know there are a couple of spellbooks and scrolls and some NPC monster spellcasters, and that all of them are difficult to get spells out of). Again, this only applies if you're going in as a starting character.

Cleric remains a tier 1. Druid would as well, though you would want a feat to replace your spontaneous summoning abilities. There is no reasonable way to be a VoP artificer, so the entire artificer class is pretty much hosed (you don't get enough wealth to use any of its class features to a significant degree, and you certainly can't convert that wealth into materials for magic items). And Erudites & the book clerics (can't remember what they're called) have the same problem as Wizards when it comes to getting new powers, so they're probably both tier 2 as well.

So cleric is really the only class to remain a full tier 1 in the dungeon - actually, a VoP cleric going in at level 1 loses pretty much nothing and can operate virtually unhindered. Which is thematically very appropriate, but I'm pretty sure it's accidental.

[TroubleBrewing]

See, I don't know about "should". It's always suboptimal, but in the WLD it's less awful than in most places.

Like I mentioned previously, not having access to loot makes VoP much less painful. But just because you can't go out to Magic Mart and grab up some Wings of Flying doesn't mean you should instantly take VoP. There are still some items that get handed out to the players, and every class benefits from items. VoP is never a good thing.

Also, with regards to Clerics: I actually prefer them over Wizards in 3.5. In the WLD, you're totally right in your assessment that they and Druids are the only two classes that remain Tier 1. Unrestricted access to spells (due to being provided by gods/concepts/nature/whatever) makes them far better off than the Wizard or Archivist.

[Taelas]

Considering how you can get 5 new spells per level relatively easily (Collegiate Wizard from CArc and using the Elf Racial Substitution Level from RotW nets you 5), I'd say you're pretty wrong.

[Kesnit]

Just to clarify my OP, I'm not playing a Wizard.* (Honestly, I hate them in 3.5.) I'm not even sure anyone is making a Wizard (since the rest of the players haven't said).

My fiancee did say for us to have 5 LVL 5 builds ready, so when one dies, we can bring in a new one. Given so many builds, I suspect someone will have a Wizard build somewhere.

* I'm probably going to build a Monk/Favored Soul/Sacred Fist, a Warlock, and a Hexblade. Will probably also make either a Psion or Wilder.

[FafnerMorell]

I played in a WLD campaign for about 6-8 months, starting at level 1 (I think we were lvl 8-9 when we stopped). We had a druid in the party and he was pretty useful - Snake Swiftness, Splinterbolt, healing/buffs, etc. As a general rule, I'd say we wound up resting a bit more than normal, but not much.

Frankly, the dungeon is a bit repetitive (oh, look a room just like the last, only with an ice theme instead of a fire theme - I bet the next room is either earth or air themed. Look, a room filled with magical treasure - I bet it's just a trick with a trap hidden in it and it's all the treasure turns out to be useless, just like the past 5 treasure rooms that had hidden traps).