Diamond Mind Optimization

[Elric VIII]

So, I was thinking that a Diamond Mind-focused master swordsman Warblade would be pretty interesting (Focus on the X Nightmare Blades). However, my Google-fu is apparently weak, as I cannot find any reliable guides or advice on the topic.


I assume the key is to get your concentration score very high and PA for a lot.

I was also thinking that Eternal Blade + Knowledge Devotion would be great because of the multiplier effect of the blades.

Since the maneuvers are a standard action, anything that grants a bonus while moving would be good (although Scout is out since I would lose Eternal Blade 10).


So, can anyone advise me on how to get a high Concentration score?

I would also appreciate any advice on things that synnergize well with the maneuvers.

[Lateral]

Item Familiars are probably one of the most efficient ways of pumping your Concentration checks, although it'll suck your skill points pretty dry.

[Elric VIII]

Item Familiars are probably one of the most efficient ways of pumping your Concentration checks, although it'll suck your skill points pretty dry.

That's a good idea, but are those skill points lost?


Whenever a character with an item familiar gains skill points, he may choose to put some or all of those skill points into his item familiar. He assigns the skill points normally, but notes that they now reside in the item familiar. For every 3 ranks he assigns to the item familiar, he gains a +1 bonus that he can apply to any single skill. This bonus can be applied to a skill in which he already has maximum ranks. He can apply multiple bonuses to the same skill, but he may not have more points of bonus in a skill than he has ranks.

If the character loses the item familiar, is separated from it for one day per level (see the Item Familiar feat description), or if the item familiar is destroyed, these skill points and the bonuses related to them are lost.
This, from the SRD, makes me think that you still benefit from them, but start to suck if your item is lost. Or am I misreading that?

[Akal Saris]

Well, psionics shares some uses with Concentration, so diamond mind might make an interesting focus for a multiclass warblade/psywarr, for example.

I believe there's some concentration-boosting items in the MIC, otherwise a custom +30 item is the simplest way to raise the check. Some low level cleric spells like Guidance of the Avatar can add +20 or more to the check as well.

Silly example build:
Human Swordsage 1/Warblade 1/Wiz 3/Unseen Seer 2/Jade Phoenix Mage 10/Warblade +3 (or Abjurant Champion 3)
Gets: Guidance of the Avatar (Unseen Seer 2), BAB +16, CL 13 or 16, IL 17 or 15.

[Elric VIII]

Well, psionics shares some uses with Concentration, so diamond mind might make an interesting focus for a multiclass warblade/psywarr, for example.

I believe there's some concentration-boosting items in the MIC, otherwise a custom +30 item is the simplest way to raise the check. Some low level cleric spells like Guidance of the Avatar can add +20 or more to the check as well.

Silly example build:
Human Swordsage 1/Warblade 1/Wiz 3/Unseen Seer 2/Jade Phoenix Mage 10/Warblade +3 (or Abjurant Champion 3)
Gets: Guidance of the Avatar (Unseen Seer 2), BAB +16, CL 13 or 16, IL 17 or 15.

That's a cool build, but I was thinking Eternal Blade would be interesting to try. Realistically, this build will probobly be for a fellow player in a game that has expresed interest in upgrading her Ninja/Shadowdancer (also she's a Half-Elf).

I figure Samurai-esqe Warblade (replacing Iaijutsu Focus shenanagans with Diamond Mind) would be a nice touch.

Are there any items that qualify to be familiars in the form of something like a Sage-o or a Scabbard (basically anything that isn't a weapon itself, thus more suceptible to disarm/sunder)?

EDIT: Maybe make the item in question a custom +skill item. Can you upgrade skill items (as per the MIC rules) by increasing the bonus or can you only add new effects?

[ffone]

Note that skill boosts are almost always 'competence' type - IIRC both the ubiquitous custom +30 items, and Guidance of the Avatar are - and so won't stack.

masterwork tools are IIRC 'circumstance' and +2 for 50 gp, so if you can justify a 'tool' for Concentration (how about the classic 'samurai drinking jug' yet filled with gingko tea instead of sake?), there's that.

[Dusk Eclipse]

For a concentration masterwork tool, I usually try to wing it as a headband, IIRC they were used by WWII japanese pilots... fitting for a Samurai I think

[Darrin]

Shape Soulmeld: Vitality Belt (Magic of Incarnum). +4 morale bonus on Constitution-based checks. Unfortunately, not pumpable with essentia.

Tunic of Steady Spellcasting (2500 GP, MIC p. 144). +4 competence bonus on all Concentration checks (not just spellcasting).

Githcraft template (+600 GP per item, DMGII p. 276). +1 untyped bonus on Concentration for each githcraft item. Chain shirt + dastana + chahar-aina + shield = +4 bonus.

Mordrei'in (25 GP, Faiths of Eberron p. 153). +2 alchemical bonus to Concentration and Spot checks for 10 minutes.

Rhul (50 GP, Lords of Darkness p. 184). Drug/poison, initial effect +4 alchemical bonus to Str and Con, -2 penalty to AC. Secondary effect, user is fatigued (Icewild Lichen Paste, 50 GP, Secrets of Sarlona, can get rid of fatigue). As a side effect, must make a Will save DC 16 or you cannot make ranged attacks and must only use melee attacks. Overdose (more than one does taken in an hour) does 1d4 points of Int and Wis damage.

[Person_Man]

One level of Marshal would let you add your Charisma to your Constitution checks. Also if you're Undead you use your Charisma bonus for Concentration. And Exemplar (Complete Adventurer) gives you some sort of similar ability.

Calming armor enhancement: +5 competence bonus to Concentration. 4,000 gp, Secrets of Sarlona pg 137.

The Brood Keeper's Heart is a Totemist soulmeld from Dragon Magazine 350 gives you a 4 + (2 * essentia invested) bonus on Concentration checks.

Although Rage normally prevents Concentration, there's a feat in BoED called Righteous Wrath that let's you Concentrate while in a Rage. Thus you could do something like Barbarian 1/Warblade 4/Bear Warrior 1/Anything X to get a pretty large bonus to your Constitution.

Similarly, Wildshape, Alter Self, and Polymorph can increase your Constitution (though not your hit points), as do a variety of strait buff spells.

Extraordinary Concentration: You may maintain Concentration on a spell as a Move Action (DC 25 + spell level). If you beat the DC by 10 or more, you can maintain concentration as a Swift Action. If you fail your check, you lose concentration. Spells that require Concentration are often fairly potent (because they normally require that you take a Standard Action every turn to maintain them), so this is a big action advantage. Requires 10 ranks Concentration. CAdv p109

Mobile Spellcasting: If a spell is a Standard Action, you can make a Concentration check to move as part of the same action. Yet another action advantage. Comp Adventurer pg 111.

Also, Ruby Knight Vindicator gives you additional Immediate Actions, which is a huge deal for Moment of Perfect Mind et al, which allow you to basically autopass any Save, but require an Immediate Action.


So I would say that your ideal build would be some sort of Cleric or Archivist/Warblade/Ruby Knight Vindicator with an Item Familiar.

[Taelas]

Bear Warrior requires +7 BAB, so you need a couple more levels in there before you can grab it.

[Master_Rahl22]

It has been mentioned, but you should find some way to become psionically focused (as in dipping Psion/PsyWar/Ardent/etc.). You can expend your focus to "Take 15" on a Concentration check. There's the Instant Clarity feat in ToB to regain your focus as a swift action after using a strike. It's awesome but only 3/day. There are numerous psionics/ToB homebrew PrCs to be found here, I can link a few if you like.

[Dusk Eclipse]

Note that you don't need to dip a psionic class to become psionically focus; just have a PP reserve though race (elans for example) or through feats, hidden talent (Dimension Hope) and a visit to the Psionic Node (magical psionic location in... Complete Psionics I think) will net you 7 PP and you can teleport 10 ft. as a swift action.

But without Psionic Meditation you will need to use a Full round action, so dipping two levels of Psychic warrior (you get two bonus feats, PP reserve and only loose 1 IL and 1 Bab) is a good idea.

And here is a link to my favourite ToB/psionics hybrid, the Ephemeral Blade (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=5883542) which has a strong focus on Diamond Mind

[Elric VIII]

Wow, there was a lull in posts for a while on this thread. So, I'm not going to need the character for the friend, but there are some good suggestions, especially taking a few Shape Soulmend Feats, Samurai + Chakra seems like a fitting combination.

I was thinking that War Mind would be nice for a few levels, after taking Hidden Talent: Dimension Hop. This would give me the ability to take Psychic Meditation without losing BAB for Eternal Blade.




So I would say that your ideal build would be some sort of Cleric or Archivist/Warblade/Ruby Knight Vindicator with an Item Familiar.

I really like that one, but wouldn't I be somewhat gimpped on my Diamond Mind maneuvers due to Warbade's low maneuvers known and RKV not getting access to Diamond Mind?

[Incanur]

Note that skill boosts are almost always 'competence' type - IIRC both the ubiquitous custom +30 items, and Guidance of the Avatar are - and so won't stack.

Spells like divine insight and moment of prescience provide insight bonuses to skill checks.

[Divide by Zero]

Spells like divine insight and moment of prescience provide insight bonuses to skill checks.

Hence the "almost," presumably. Insight is certainly the second most common type, with others being rare and typically small.

[Combat Reflexes]

If we're going into the custom-made items:

You can get extra concentration from anything:
+10 sacred bonus
+10 luck
+10 profane
+10 alchemical
+10 morale
+10 enhancement
+10 perfection
+10 circumstance (or more; circumstance stacks)
+10 competence
+10 insight
_______________
Grand total: +100 !

[Elric VIII]

If we're going into the custom-made items:

You can get extra concentration from anything:
+10 sacred bonus
+10 luck
+10 profane
+10 alchemical
+10 morale
+10 enhancement
+10 perfection
+10 circumstance (or more; circumstance stacks)
+10 competence
+10 insight
_______________
Grand total: +100 !

That goes to show the general bad idea of giving your players the DMG.

[Person_Man]

I really like that one, but wouldn't I be somewhat gimpped on my Diamond Mind maneuvers due to Warbade's low maneuvers known and RKV not getting access to Diamond Mind?

Thanks to the unique way that maneuvers and stances progress, you could still mix in a levels of Warblade towards the end of your progression to pick up the low-mid level Diamond Mind maneuvers that you want. But yes, you'd basically be giving up higher level Diamond Mind maneuvers in return for 3/4ish divine casting, 3/4 Devoted Spirit etc, and a big action advantage.

If you want access to the highest level Diamond Mind stuff, then your build will need 17ish levels of Warblade, Swordsage, and/or Eternal Blade.

I'm personally not that fond of Eternal Blade - the capstone is amazing but everything else is basically just a jumble of X to Y abilities which aren't necessarily better then the Warblade's Battle Skill and Battle Mastery.

Swordsage is a solid class. But if you know that you want to use Diamond Mind most of the time, then there's no reason to go with the Swordsage, who's best point is his versatility.

So that basically just leaves you with Warblade 17ish/Whatever 3 with an Item Familiar. The Whatever levels will presumably be more Warblade (if you want the capstone), Totemist (if you want soulmelds), or Barbarian 1/Bear Warrior 1 with Extra Rage (if you want the big Con bonus).

[Incanur]

For delicious samurai flavor, human warblade 20 strikes me as ideal. I'm fond of simplicity. Maybe warblade 18/fighter 2 just for Weapon Supremacy, or warblade 18/psychic warrior 2 for psionic focus.

[Elric VIII]

Thanks to the unique way that maneuvers and stances progress, you could still mix in a levels of Warblade towards the end of your progression to pick up the low-mid level Diamond Mind maneuvers that you want. But yes, you'd basically be giving up higher level Diamond Mind maneuvers in return for 3/4ish divine casting, 3/4 Devoted Spirit etc, and a big action advantage.

If you want access to the highest level Diamond Mind stuff, then your build will need 17ish levels of Warblade, Swordsage, and/or Eternal Blade.

I'm personally not that fond of Eternal Blade - the capstone is amazing but everything else is basically just a jumble of X to Y abilities which aren't necessarily better then the Warblade's Battle Skill and Battle Mastery.

Swordsage is a solid class. But if you know that you want to use Diamond Mind most of the time, then there's no reason to go with the Swordsage, who's best point is his versatility.

So that basically just leaves you with Warblade 17ish/Whatever 3 with an Item Familiar. The Whatever levels will presumably be more Warblade (if you want the capstone), Totemist (if you want soulmelds), or Barbarian 1/Bear Warrior 1 with Extra Rage (if you want the big Con bonus).

That is a valid point, an Int-based fighter that can only use Int sometimes does not seem to be that great. Focusing on increasing concentration check in order to PA for a lot is essentially another twist on boosting jump/assigning resources to chargeing items for an ubercharger. FWIW I do really like Swordsage, so I might go with that anyway. The low level Diamond Mind save replacers are the best anyway.


For delicious samurai flavor, human warblade 20 strikes me as ideal. I'm fond of simplicity. Maybe warblade 18/fighter 2 just for Weapon Supremacy, or warblade 18/psychic warrior 2 for psionic focus.

If you knew me you'd laugh at yourself for suggesting that I take the simple route.:smallwink:

[Bakkan]

The Steady Concentration (I think? AFB) feat from Races of Stone allows you to take 10 on any Concentration check, which could be useful.