Thoughts on Two Warforged Monk Builds

[fhgwdads]

Hi, I'm looking to play a Warforged Monk in an upcoming Eberron game. I've done my research, and I've found two particular builds I'm interested in:

Monk (Overwhelming Attack) X/Paladin X/Argent Fist 10"
Uses Adamantine Body, Multi-Attack, Shield, and a Battlefist to dish out the hurt. The exact specific ratio of Monk to Paladin is what I'm particularly unsure of here. Paladin 4 is required to take the PrC. Paladin 5 gives an additional Smite per day - nice, but unnecessary. Monk has no inherent requirements, though both level 5 (cheaper flurry) and level 6 (improved saves, improved fast movement, improved BAB. Monk 7 is nice, but that would require me to miss out on the capstone of the PrC before going Epic. This is something I prefer to avoid, so the choice then becomes Pal4/Monk6 or Pal5/Monk5.

Featwise, I'm not terribly sure on what to go for outside of the variant Monk feats, natural attack boosters, and Snap Kick. I suppose charge feats like Shock Trooper are a decent possibility, as well as Disarm/Sunder/etc, but I have no idea as to what would be optimal.

What would you suggest for all of this? If you can give me a really good reason for missing out on capstone of the PrC, I might think twice. I do like it both thematically and mechanically, but if I was to not take it to level 10, it would be to level 8 (Mettle is too good to take any less levels of the PrC).

I'd like to add that I'd most likely take at least some of racial substitution levels for Warforged Paladin, though I'm debating the merits of the second level (swap Divine Grace for +Con to Will, Lay on Hands becomes repair at Con*CL) compared to burning a feat on Serenity (Divine Grace uses Wis).

Monk/FighterThis build is about maximizing attacks, both in number and effectiveness. With a Slam attack (potentially two with the Second Slam feat) and a pair of Battlefists. Before it's mentioned, I'd like to say that I'm still trying to go for a certain aesthetic (this character is supposed a sort of traditional martial artist; at least for this build), so I'd probably not take the Iron Jaws feat. Fighter levels would be taken at strategic points for improving TWF - I'd doubt that I'd take more than 4 levels in it, with the third level most assuredly in its substitution. Other feats would include Multiattack, natural attack boosters and Snap Kick, as with the previous build. Beyond that I really have no idea; Two-Weapon Pounce/Rend are possibilities but I'm not sure if they're ideal.

That's pretty much it. I'm not really sure which build is more ideal mechanically. The Argent Fist is probably more survivable, having more AC, better HP, comparable if not slightly better saves (except for Ref), but at the expense of offensive capability. The Monk/Fighter is exactly the opposite, having probably less AC (if only slightly), worse HP, but making up for it with a boatload of attacks (at 20th: 9 from battlefists, 2 from slams, and 1 from iron jaws if i take it). Any thoughts on this?

Comments and criticisms on the builds is welcomed. I was originally attempting to make the Argent Fist build a TWF user, but I realized this was impossible without some amount of a Fighter dip, limit my Monk level and/or PrC level. I didn't really think too much on it after this as I assumed I'd be too low on feats to do TWF well as well as hurting even more for stats. If anyone can figure out a way to effectively run that, I'd be incredibly thankful.

EDIT: I wanted to add - these are the dice rolls I've gotten:

14 13 12 11 10 7

18 17 14 10 8 6

16 15 14 12 10 10

I'm to pick one roll from the three, but none of them are really ideal to me. The second roll seems like it could fit the Argent Fist build and the third Fighter build, but none of them are really optimal (especially for the Fighter build). The biggest issues for me would personally be a potential low Constitution (both rolls) and mediocre Strength/Dex/Wis (third roll) in the second build, as well as the low Intelligence and Charisma in both builds (both using the second roll). Additionally, running the hybrid build of Argent Fist with TWF much more difficult using any of these rolls.

Oh, and we're starting at 6th level, if that helps.

[Keld Denar]

What, an Eberron monk build and no Tashalatora? Boo. Secrets of Sarlona is considered to have the best monk fix ever in that feat! Punching plus powers, oh my!

I do like the Argent Fist build better. Also, there is a feat for Monk/Pally hybreds where you can stack both classes together to determine some of your goodies. Might be worth looking into. Aesetic Knight, IIRC, and its probably in the Eberron Campaign Setting.

[Greenish]

Argent Fist shouts out for Serenity, and if you can scrape together a bunch of feats, Shiba Protector dip.

As for the level mix, monk2/pal4 is the default entry into Argent Fist. More of either probably doesn't do much.

Also, with Adamantine Body, you can't flurry or get your fast movement (and get wis to AC at ECL 8 the earliest).

[fhgwdads]

Argent Fist shouts out for Serenity, and if you can scrape together a bunch of feats, Shiba Protector dip.

As for the level mix, monk2/pal4 is the default entry into Argent Fist. More of either probably doesn't do much.

Also, with Adamantine Body, you can't flurry or get your fast movement (and get wis to AC at ECL 8 the earliest).

And yeah, I realize now that I'd even lose out on Evasion too, though I could keep that by going with Mithral Body. That's kind of moot though, considering I was hoping to use Dex as a dump stat with this build in particular. The other one also requires Dex for the TWF, making the differences between the two (good and bad) a little less clear now.

Shiba Protector is unfortunately out as it's Oriental Adventurers and that's a major setting conflict. That's the biggest qualm of the GM in terms of source material, so unfortunately I don't think I'll get any leeway on that. Do you have any other suggestions for classes that might help with this?

Thoughts on the second and/or mixed build (Argent Fist with TWF)?

Thanks for the help so far.

[Veyr]

Classes that would help any monk:

Psychic Warrior (Expanded Psionics Handbook, SRD) or Ardent (Complete Psionics) — by taking the Monastic Training (Eberron Campaign Setting; can be your 2nd level Monk bonus feat) and Tashalatora (Secrets of Sarlona) feats, either of these classes can advance your unarmed strike damage, your flurry of blows, and AC bonus. Thus a Monk 2/Ardent 18 or Monk 2/Psychic Warrior 18 deals unarmed strike damage as a Monk 20, has the AC bonus of a Monk 20, and has the Flurry of Blows of a Monk 20, along with the Manifesting of an Ardent 18 or a Psychic Warrior 18. The Ardent is the better choice here because of the way it learns Powers, and Practiced Manifester (Complete Psionic or just extrapolate from Practiced Spellcaster in Complete Arcane) is a very good idea for either. These powers can then allow you to do a great many things, since they're actually good, unlike Paladin spells.

Swordsage (Tome of Battle) — In the adaptation section, can get Unarmed Strike damage as a Monk in lieu of weapon and armor proficiencies. This simply replaces Monk with a version that actually works.


In short, a "monk" build is better the fewer levels in the "Monk" class it has (and never more than 2, pretty much), because the "Monk" class is abysmal. By extension, almost all of the "______ Fist" classes are similarly terrible — I can't directly speak to the Argent Fist, but you'd be better off entering as Cleric than Paladin (which is almost as bad as the Monk). And the Fighter is another that really should not be taken past level 2 unless you're shockingly desperate for feats (but then Fighter 2/Psychic Warrior 2 will get you one more feat and some powers), or you're going for the Dungeoncrasher (Dungeonscape) or Zhentarim variants (not sure where Zhentarim is from).

So basically, your builds are using three of the weakest classes in 3.5 in the Fighter, Monk, and Paladin. My guess is that given you did not know this, your table is probably exceedingly low-optimization, which I... cannot really give you advice for. But if you want my thoughts on a Warforged Monk, or any other Monk for that matter, my suggestion is to avoid the Monk class as much as possible. Tashalatora or Swordsage are the best ways to do that.

As for the Warforged thing, get a Battlefist. They're excellent, and they're one of the few things that will synergize with a monk's unarmed damage.


EDIT: Did have a thought on Monk 2/Paladin 2 — if you take the Serenity feat and the Intuitive Strike feat, you're adding Wisdom to AC, all Saves, and attack rolls. That's pretty solid. Swordsage 4 adds Wisdom to damage when you use a Martial Strike from his chosen school, so a Monk 2/Paladin 2/Swordsage might be a pretty decent base. If you use the Unarmed Swordsage variant, you should be getting stacking Unarmed Strike damage with that. Because of the way Initiator Level works, you get to start with 2nd level maneuvers at 1st level, which is kind of cool.

[fhgwdads]

Classes that would help any monk:

Psychic Warrior (Expanded Psionics Handbook, SRD) or Ardent (Complete Psionics) — by taking the Monastic Training (Eberron Campaign Setting; can be your 2nd level Monk bonus feat) and Tashalatora (Secrets of Sarlona) feats, either of these classes can advance your unarmed strike damage, your flurry of blows, and AC bonus. Thus a Monk 2/Ardent 18 or Monk 2/Psychic Warrior 18 deals unarmed strike damage as a Monk 20, has the AC bonus of a Monk 20, and has the Flurry of Blows of a Monk 20, along with the Manifesting of an Ardent 18 or a Psychic Warrior 18. The Ardent is the better choice here because of the way it learns Powers, and Practiced Manifester (Complete Psionic or just extrapolate from Practiced Spellcaster in Complete Arcane) is a very good idea for either. These powers can then allow you to do a great many things, since they're actually good, unlike Paladin spells.

Swordsage (Tome of Battle) — In the adaptation section, can get Unarmed Strike damage as a Monk in lieu of weapon and armor proficiencies. This simply replaces Monk with a version that actually works.


In short, a "monk" build is better the fewer levels in the "Monk" class it has (and never more than 2, pretty much), because the "Monk" class is abysmal. By extension, almost all of the "______ Fist" classes are similarly terrible — I can't directly speak to the Argent Fist, but you'd be better off entering as Cleric than Paladin (which is almost as bad as the Monk). And the Fighter is another that really should not be taken past level 2 unless you're shockingly desperate for feats (but then Fighter 2/Psychic Warrior 2 will get you one more feat and some powers), or you're going for the Dungeoncrasher (Dungeonscape) or Zhentarim variants (not sure where Zhentarim is from).

So basically, your builds are using three of the weakest classes in 3.5 in the Fighter, Monk, and Paladin. My guess is that given you did not know this, your table is probably exceedingly low-optimization, which I... cannot really give you advice for. But if you want my thoughts on a Warforged Monk, or any other Monk for that matter, my suggestion is to avoid the Monk class as much as possible. Tashalatora or Swordsage are the best ways to do that.

As for the Warforged thing, get a Battlefist. They're excellent, and they're one of the few things that will synergize with a monk's unarmed damage.

Thanks for the suggestions. I mentioned the Battlefist in both builds above, as well as the unarmed strike-improving Feats (Improved Natural Attack and Superior Unarmed Strike). As far as I know everything in ToB is currently conditional but probably out. I think I can convince the DM to allow Snap Kick and the aforementioned Superior US, but I'm not sure how far I'll get with the Swordsage. I'll see what he says, but to be honest, I'm not holding my breath.

As far as my class choices go, I thought I had the outlined the reasons for them up above but I guess I hadn't gone into as much as I'd thought.

In the first build, Paladin 4 is necessary for Smite Evil, a class pre-requisite of Argent Fist. Unless, that is, there's a way to get Smite as a Cleric which, forgive my ignorance, I'm fully unaware of. Taking Cleric would probably be more optimal for maximizing levels, but in truth, I'm not trying to optimize this build like a bat out of hell. I'm looking to play a thematic character with a somewhat effective and/or fun build for a largely roleplaying-centric game. The GM himself has already stated his intention to weed out heavy optimizers from the get-go in the application phase, so applying with a 6th level character who has 3 or 4 dips will set off a bunch of red lights.

For the second build, I've chosen Fighter as a way to efficiently pick up TWF. Ranger doesn't fit thematically, nor do I have class levels to blow (and Monk abilities to miss out on) taking levels long enough to pick all the TWF goodies later in the class. Now, I could potentially take Psychic Warrior in place of the Fighter levels, I suppose, if I were to go towards the Tashalatora. I've been considering this, but I want to ensure this isn't going to interfere with my concept for the build. How might you suggest I build this, in order to maintain getting TWF and the its improvement feats?

[Veyr]

Well, a Psychic Warrior unquestionably gets the most attacks in the game (at later levels; early on the Totemist wins), so a Monk 2/Psychic Warrior 18 would do what you were looking for on the second build, I think. Those would generally be natural attacks, but minor refluffing could probably deal with that.

For the first build, I'm unconvinced that Argent Fist is all that great, but here are my good-faith suggestions there:

Pal 4/Mnk 2 qualifies easily, and is probably the intended entry. Serenity and Intuitive Strike feats become a must. Beg your DM to be reasonable about the Ki Focus and Holy Armor class features — try to convince him that they really ought to cover all Monk class features, and allow Monk weapons to deal unarmed strike damage as well as qualify for whatever. Although Battlefist might eliminate the need for that; can you enhance a Battlefist as a magic weapon? While you're at it, you should try to get Ascetic Knight to cover Flurry of Blows, and Holy Armor to stack for the purposes of your AC Bonus bonuses (not that they're all that good or large).

For the record, Paladin 5 is absolutely not worth it unless you are going to use that mount. Smite is stupidly useless, so don't count on it for anything. You could take Extra Smiting, but it's still really not worth it.

A Cleric 1 dip would be awesome, in general, though; I'd strongly consider Pal 2/Mnk 2/Clr 1, and then whatever you want to make up the BAB (you still can't get in before 7th, though, so that's a wash). A Cleric 1 dip gets you Turn Undead, two or three Domains (or Devotions, see Complete Champion), and 0th and 1st level Divine spells. It's a pretty solid dip.

Silver Flame doesn't give the Travel Domain, which is a shame, but the Law Devotion option is awesome, and with Cloistered Cleric and the Educated feat, Knowledge Devotion might be worth it (but probably not). Complete Champion says Clerics can only take Devotions from their deity's Domain list, but if you can convince your DM to allow you to take Travel Devotion as a separate feat (you're a wandering warrior fighting for the Silver Flame, or something), do that, because it's excellent and your build is going to really appreciate it.

Actually, side note — those rules about taking Devotions from the Domain lists only strictly apply to Clerics. You might be able to take Travel Devotion as a Paladin even if your deity doesn't give Travel Domain, provided you can show that your character really is devoted to Travel. If so, forget Cleric altogether — having access to Travel Devotion is worth not dipping Cleric.

Anyway, for getting the rest of the BAB if you do dip Cleric... Paladin levels advance Unarmed Strike (once you get into Argent Fist), and get you the Aura of Courage (not awful, but really not great), and Turn Undead; I'm not sure how that stacks (or doesn't) with the Cleric's. Of course, at that point, the Cleric dip isn't really worth it anyway, so that's a silly idea.

Monk also advances unarmed strike (duh), and gets Still Mind and Slow Fall, as well as his first Fast Movement — pretty much all crap, unless you can convince your DM to allow the Fast Movement to qualify as the same as the Barbarian's for the purpose of the Spirit Lion Totem ACF from Complete Champion. They're "Alternate Class Features," and you do have the same "class feature", which means, really, I think by RAW you can — but it sounds like your DM won't like this idea. This is the alternative to Travel Devotion, though — you really want Pounce if you can't have Travel Devotion.

Investing in Tashalatora at this point so Psychic Warrior advances Unarmed Strike doesn't seem worth it to me, but a couple of levels of Psychic Warrior (get Expansion, among other things) seems like a not-awful way to get the BAB you need, if you're going to lose unarmed strike progression. Barbarian for Pounce (see above) and Whirling Frenzy would also be a great idea, except that's going to be tough to swing unless your DM is open to refluffing (and waiving stupid alignment requirements). Aside from those... well, Crusader or Swordsage is still a good option, but you've already said your DM doesn't want mundanes to have nice things, so we'll have to live without that. Hrm... no other classes are really jumping out at me here.

Anyway, I hope that helps some.

[fhgwdads]

For the first build, I'm unconvinced that Argent Fist is all that great, but here are my good-faith suggestions there:

Pal 4/Mnk 2 qualifies easily, and is probably the intended entry. Serenity and Intuitive Strike feats become a must. Beg your DM to be reasonable about the Ki Focus and Holy Armor class features — try to convince him that they really ought to cover all Monk class features, and allow Monk weapons to deal unarmed strike damage as well as qualify for whatever. Although Battlefist might eliminate the need for that; can you enhance a Battlefist as a magic weapon?

The Battlefist comes standard as a +1 weapon. While it doesn't explicitly say it can be enhanced, I highly doubt the DM wouldn't allow it. I'll ask him on the Argent Fist thing, but that seems awfully powerful and I doubt he'd allow it. At the very least, I don't think he'd allow it with Adamantine Body/Heavy Armor. There's no reason I have to go the Adamantine Body route with this build (I could for the Hybrid TWF thing), but that does make this build a little more squishy and make Dex from a dump stat to something probably as important as Strength (stacking on the MAD...).


For the record, Paladin 5 is absolutely not worth it unless you are going to use that mount. Smite is stupidly useless, so don't count on it for anything. You could take Extra Smiting, but it's still really not worth it.

A Cleric 1 dip would be awesome, in general, though; I'd strongly consider Pal 2/Mnk 2/Clr 1, and then whatever you want to make up the BAB (you still can't get in before 7th, though, so that's a wash). A Cleric 1 dip gets you Turn Undead, two or three Domains (or Devotions, see Complete Champion), and 0th and 1st level Divine spells. It's a pretty solid dip.

Silver Flame doesn't give the Travel Domain, which is a shame, but the Law Devotion option is awesome, and with Cloistered Cleric and the Educated feat, Knowledge Devotion might be worth it (but probably not). Complete Champion says Clerics can only take Devotions from their deity's Domain list, but if you can convince your DM to allow you to take Travel Devotion as a separate feat (you're a wandering warrior fighting for the Silver Flame, or something), do that, because it's excellent and your build is going to really appreciate it.

Actually, side note — those rules about taking Devotions from the Domain lists only strictly apply to Clerics. You might be able to take Travel Devotion as a Paladin even if your deity doesn't give Travel Domain, provided you can show that your character really is devoted to Travel. If so, forget Cleric altogether — having access to Travel Devotion is worth not dipping Cleric.

Anyway, for getting the rest of the BAB if you do dip Cleric... Paladin levels advance Unarmed Strike (once you get into Argent Fist), and get you the Aura of Courage (not awful, but really not great), and Turn Undead; I'm not sure how that stacks (or doesn't) with the Cleric's. Of course, at that point, the Cleric dip isn't really worth it anyway, so that's a silly idea.

Monk also advances unarmed strike (duh), and gets Still Mind and Slow Fall, as well as his first Fast Movement — pretty much all crap, unless you can convince your DM to allow the Fast Movement to qualify as the same as the Barbarian's for the purpose of the Spirit Lion Totem ACF from Complete Champion. They're "Alternate Class Features," and you do have the same "class feature", which means, really, I think by RAW you can — but it sounds like your DM won't like this idea. This is the alternative to Travel Devotion, though — you really want Pounce if you can't have Travel Devotion.

As far as getting Pounce goes, I don't see that happening with the Barbarian (including swapping the Monk levels) unfortunately, so that's out. Two-Weapon Pounce is probably as good as I'll be able to get, sucky as it is, but in all honesty I don't think this situation is all that horrible.

Travel Devotion sounds like a good idea in place of it, though; it's workable into either concept and would probably improve them thematically. The Complete series is being automatically allowed, so


Well, a Psychic Warrior unquestionably gets the most attacks in the game (at later levels; early on the Totemist wins), so a Monk 2/Psychic Warrior 18 would do what you were looking for on the second build, I think. Those would generally be natural attacks, but minor refluffing could probably deal with that.

************

Investing in Tashalatora at this point so Psychic Warrior advances Unarmed Strike doesn't seem worth it to me, but a couple of levels of Psychic Warrior (get Expansion, among other things) seems like a not-awful way to get the BAB you need, if you're going to lose unarmed strike progression. Barbarian for Pounce (see above) and Whirling Frenzy would also be a great idea, except that's going to be tough to swing unless your DM is open to refluffing (and waiving stupid alignment requirements). Aside from those... well, Crusader or Swordsage is still a good option, but you've already said your DM doesn't want mundanes to have nice things, so we'll have to live without that. Hrm... no other classes are really jumping out at me here.

Anyway, I hope that helps some.

Yeah, I can't really see the character going all Psychic Warrior without Tashalatora since that was never my intention at all. Unarmed damage is what I'm going for (not Monk weapons or anything, straight up unarmed damage via fists and feet), so if a change in the build is going to ruin that I'd prefer to avoid it. Anything that can be covered by a Monk's belt (up to 5 levels) is fine with me, but anything beyond that is a different build and therefore a different character concept in my eyes.

What about going Monk2/PsyWar4/Haztaratain10 and then tacking some other monk-like class on the end, such as a Psionic Fist? Poor example, I know, since it provides its owning Manifesting rather than stacking with other classes - but something like that would be ideal. Haztaratain doesn't require me to go Psionic, either, and I could probably convince the ST to allow an Arcane version of Tashalatora (it could already exist, but I have no idea).


Thanks for the help so far.

[Veyr]

If you're going Tashalatora, you really should probably just stick with Monk 2/Psychic Warrior 18 or Monk 2/Ardent 18, probably. You only get to pick one Psionic Class to advance your Monk features, and neither Psionic Fist nor Zerth Cenobite (the Monk/Psionics "theurge" prestige classes) are any good.

I'm not familiar with Haztaratain, so I can't comment on that. What book?

As for Holy Armor working for heavy armor/Adamantine Body, you are a Paladin/Monk. There are few weaker classes in the game than either one separately, and they don't synergize at all. Even with the improved Holy Armor in there, you're going to be very underpowered, IMO. Note that the feature already gives you Wis to AC even in heavy armor; it's only the Flurry of Blows that you're at all worried about here. Don't know how much you'd even use it, but that is what you're looking to not lose.

If Battlefists can be enhanced as magic weapons (and I think they can, since they start as +1s), then you don't need to argue the Ki Focus point, but still, Monks should automatically deal unarmed strike damage with all Monk weapons anyway, and the Ki Focus special ability should never be necessary in the first place. That's just a series of incredible nerfs to an already very-weak class.


As for Travel Devotion, that alone will make this almost palatable; you really need it. Pounce is a poor substitute for it; Travel Devotion is the better ability. Only look into Pounce if you can't get Travel Devotion.


We should talk about goals here, I think. The only real mechanical reason to bother with Monk is if you're looking for getting Wis to everything (there's a Sir Wisdom the SAD build around that you should at here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=6970738#post6970738), though it doesn't use Monk; also scroll up for the incredibly-useful X Stat to Y Bonus lists).

This means Pal 2/Mnk 2 and Serenity and Intuitive Attack for Wis to saves, AC, and attacks. At Argent Fist 10, you get Wis for Fast Healing; that's kinda cool, though really it's not that great (your Wis is not going to be high enough for this to be anything but out-of-combat healing, and that's trivially simple to get). Shiba Protector has already been mentioned; you really should be trying for that. Refluffing it to fit Eberron and your character should be really easy.

[Greenish]

Haztaratain is just a mountain monk thingy from SoS. No notable class features beyond advancing monk stuff.