Throw the Stone

[TimeWizard]

Does any one else feel uncomfortable that the way to return Haley to regular size is tho throw her at the ground? what if she breaks in stone form?

[Asarlai]

Given that V gave the instructions, I think it's safe.

[Dr.Epic]

Personally, I hope they turn her back to flesh but keep the tiny size. It'd be easier for Haley to hide and sneak, and since she's a rogue, she only needs the massive amounts of d6's from sneak attacks and I'm pretty sure those don't change based by size.

[Gift Jeraff]

Celia's statue withstood falling at least 2 dungeon floors, so I wouldn't be worried.

[Dr.Epic]

Celia's statue withstood falling at least 2 dungeon floors, so I wouldn't be worried.

Yeah, but her statue was made out of plot convenience and the path she fell down was also slowed by plot as it took so long to reach the ground.

[factotum]

Yeah, but her statue was made out of plot convenience and the path she fell down was also slowed by plot as it took so long to reach the ground.

It didn't take her long to reach the ground at all once the ceiling gave way... :smallconfused:

[BlackestOfMages]

hmmm, so we're agreed that Celia was saved by plot convinience, but we can't agree on Haley

on an unrelated note, even if she does break, Durkon can just cast break enchantment on the fragments, and then on the little bits of remains cast regenerate - so it's more out of the fight than a serious threat

[Gift Jeraff]

hmmm, so we're agreed that Celia was saved by plot convinience
1 post that said that followed by 1 post that disagreed sure is a weird way of agreeing...

[Swordpriest]

I also would say that Celia's fall might have been plot convenience in the sense that she didn't break, but I disagree that it was "slowed" by plot. Falling on the ceiling of another room, which gradually gives way under the strain, is not a fall slowed by plot, but by ancient timbers and flooring. :smallconfused:

[ThePhantasm]

They could always just toss her at a flumph. Problem solved.

[MesiDoomstalker]

hmmm, so we're agreed that Celia was saved by plot convinience, but we can't agree on Haley

on an unrelated note, even if she does break, Durkon can just cast break enchantment on the fragments, and then on the little bits of remains cast regenerate - so it's more out of the fight than a serious threat

Assuming he has Regenerate prepared and the there is enough of the little bits still together for her to be "alive" for Regenerate to reattach her pieces. She would need at least -6 HP to have a gaurenteed chance of survive the the 3 round casting time. (Assuming she fails 3 stablizing throws in a row. She could have less than -6 but -6 is the safest bet)

This idea has came to me as well. The only way I can see this working in this way is Haley being bisected (cut along the waste) Durkon (or Elan for extra touching moment) healing her to stablize her followed up with Regenerate.

[Mastikator]

You have to throw rocks pretty hard to break them. I'm questioning if Elan even can throw that hard, he's never shown any great feat of strength.

[Swordpriest]

Well, breaking off an arm or a leg is much more likely than the entire statuette shattering into a zillion pieces. Stone is hard. Tossing the statuette down from a distance of a few feet is not very likely to shatter it like an eggshell. I've tried breaking small rocks with a sledgehammer, and believe me, it isn't easy.

With that said, the limbs aren't the only thin/weak points. There's also the neck. :smalleek:

[John Cribati]

"Objects changed by a shrink item spell can be returned to normal composition and size merely by tossing them onto any solid surface or by a word of command from the original caster"

That's how the spell works. I'll just assume that there's some sort of failsafe against this kind of thing.

[Malek2991]

Stone has Hardness 8, so she should be alright... also falling from less than 10 feet does no damage... even at 10 feet Haley would take 0 damage.

[Asarlai]

1. Go outside.
2. Pick up a hand-size rock
3. Toss the rock onto the ground.
4. Watch rock not break.
5. ????
6. PROFIT!

Anyway, you have to have either a really weak rock or throw it hard directly at the ground to break it on stone/pavement.

[tcrudisi]

1. Go outside.
2. Pick up a hand-size rock
3. Toss the rock onto the ground.
4. Watch rock not break.
5. ????
6. PROFIT!

Anyway, you have to have either a really weak rock or throw it hard directly at the ground to break it on stone/pavement.

You win.

[ORione]

You have to throw rocks pretty hard to break them. I'm questioning if Elan even can throw that hard, he's never shown any great feat of strength.

Maybe if he made a pun while tossing...

[Dr.Epic]

It didn't take her long to reach the ground at all once the ceiling gave way... :smallconfused:

Why didn't it just break the ceiling when it first hit the ground? And was the ground in that room really the ceiling for the room the necklace was in? What kind of messed up architecture does that dungeon have?

[TimeWizard]

1. Go outside.
2. Pick up a hand-size rock
3. Toss the rock onto the ground.
4. Watch rock not break.
5. ????
6. PROFIT!

Anyway, you have to have either a really weak rock or throw it hard directly at the ground to break it on stone/pavement.

I'm thinking more like....
1) Find small stone statue
2) Throw statue on ground
3) Notice limbs and digits are not as durable as body
4) Remake Haley one-armed
5) ????
6) Profit


Edit Spelling.

[John Cribati]

I'm thinking more like....
1) Find small stone statue
2) Throw statue on ground
3) Notice limbs and digits are not as durable as body
4) Remake Haley one-armed
5) ????
6) Profit


Edit Spelling.

Actually, smaller things have better proportional structural integrity thanks to the Square/Cube law.

If Haley had grown to 2x her size, she'd have 22 times the surface area and 22 times her strength, but 23 times her weight. She's 1/16th her size, so she's 1/162 her surface area and strength, but 1/163 her weight. So she wouldn't just break like that anyway.

[TimeWizard]

That's great work there, but remember:

:vaarsuvius: I file the Laws of Physics under Fiction in my personal library!

Anyway, after the whole Roy thing and the MoJ, and Haley's speech impediment I wouldn't but it past Rich to have Elan accidentally break something.

[Captain Alien]

Actually, smaller things have better proportional structural integrity thanks to the Square/Cube law.

If Haley had grown to 2x her size, she'd have 22 times the surface area and 22 times her strength, but 23 times her weight. She's 1/16th her size, so she's 1/162 her surface area and strength, but 1/163 her weight. So she wouldn't just break like that anyway.

Science! More reliable than magic.

[Metahuman1]

Actually, here's what I wanna know.

If Elan manages to get to Durkon and have him cast break enchantment, does that remove just the flesh to stone, or does it also automatically remove shrink item.

If the former, that would be a riot!

And keep in mind, her weapons distance and sneak attack range are unaffected by size, the magic based damage form +5 and frostburst are unaffected, and so are the sneak attack D6's. So she loses some of the d8 base damage in exchange for a massive boost to Dex form size, a massive boost too hit form size, a massive boost to AC form size, and a massive boost too skills like Hide and Move silently form size.

For a rouge, that's a win right there.

[ORione]

Actually, here's what I wanna know.

If Elan manages to get to Durkon and have him cast break enchantment, does that remove just the flesh to stone, or does it also automatically remove shrink item.

If the former, that would be a riot!

And keep in mind, her weapons distance and sneak attack range are unaffected by size, the magic based damage form +5 and frostburst are unaffected, and so are the sneak attack D6's. So she loses some of the d8 base damage in exchange for a massive boost to Dex form size, a massive boost too hit form size, a massive boost to AC form size, and a massive boost too skills like Hide and Move silently form size.

For a rouge, that's a win right there.

It's pretty good for a rogue, too.

[Dvandemon]

I imagine she wouldn't break, it'd be like throwing a plastic toy to the ground, the extremities aren't so weak as to break so easily, especially if it's just dropping them. Combine that with what people say about small rocks (and that snippet about square cube law) and she should be fine. Honestly, the notion is an insult to V's INT. Either way though, it's really the only option they have to immediately get her back in the game, since V won't be their to say the code word.

[Dr.Epic]

Actually, here's what I wanna know.

If Elan manages to get to Durkon and have him cast break enchantment, does that remove just the flesh to stone, or does it also automatically remove shrink item.

If the former, that would be a riot!

And keep in mind, her weapons distance and sneak attack range are unaffected by size, the magic based damage form +5 and frostburst are unaffected, and so are the sneak attack D6's. So she loses some of the d8 base damage in exchange for a massive boost to Dex form size, a massive boost too hit form size, a massive boost to AC form size, and a massive boost too skills like Hide and Move silently form size.

For a rouge, that's a win right there.

I already pointed this out in a previous post, thought I wonder how this will affect their relationship. To quote Belkar about the owlbear:

:belkar: Ouch! (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0322.html)

[Joerg]

And keep in mind, her weapons distance and sneak attack range are unaffected by size, the magic based damage form +5 and frostburst are unaffected, and so are the sneak attack D6's. So she loses some of the d8 base damage in exchange for a massive boost to Dex form size, a massive boost too hit form size, a massive boost to AC form size, and a massive boost too skills like Hide and Move silently form size.

For a rouge, that's a win right there.

But for a woman with a boyfriend, it's not.

[NerfTW]

Anyway, after the whole Roy thing and the MoJ, and Haley's speech impediment I wouldn't but it past Rich to have Elan accidentally break something.

True, but in terms of pacing, would sticking a "Haley gets shattered and needs a res" in the middle of this arc be a good idea? Besides being a second needing a res storyline, there's already the issue of Belkar's death and the high likelyhood of Durkon's before he gets back to the Dwarven lands. That would be three character deaths in short order.

Not to mention where they are. Not only do they know the proper spell AND have the funds to cast it, they are also in the middle of a kingdom shadow ruled by Elan's father, who so far has said he'd rather they continue their quest. I would find it unlikely that he would fail to raise Haley if asked.

Even if Haley were to be shattered, it wouldn't last much longer than this one fight. Any sense of peril would be missing completely.

[Dr.Epic]

True, but in terms of pacing, would sticking a "Haley gets shattered and needs a res" in the middle of this arc be a good idea?

It's worse than that: it'll take more than res to restore Haley to normal and finding the tiny bits of stone will be really difficult.

[Asarlai]

Actually, here's what I wanna know.

If Elan manages to get to Durkon and have him cast break enchantment, does that remove just the flesh to stone, or does it also automatically remove shrink item.

If the former, that would be a riot!

And keep in mind, her weapons distance and sneak attack range are unaffected by size, the magic based damage form +5 and frostburst are unaffected, and so are the sneak attack D6's. So she loses some of the d8 base damage in exchange for a massive boost to Dex form size, a massive boost too hit form size, a massive boost to AC form size, and a massive boost too skills like Hide and Move silently form size.

For a rouge, that's a win right there.

When Elan tosses her onto the ground, she returns to normal size, then Durkon breaks the enchantment.

[Metahuman1]

It's worse than that: it'll take more than res to restore Haley to normal and finding the tiny bits of stone will be really difficult.

I'd imagine since Both V and Durkon have massive Int and Wis respectively, one of them would think too use good old Prestidigitation to get the little pieces if it came too that.

[Rajhiim]

I just got back from the future - wow. Regarding Haley, yeah she's fine. The spell has built in protections for that sort of thing - barring tossing it from the top of a mountain and all.

[Nimrod's Son]

And was the ground in that room really the ceiling for the room the necklace was in? What kind of messed up architecture does that dungeon have?
Have you seen the shape of the castle (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0532.html)?


That's great work there, but remember:

:vaarsuvius: I file the Laws of Physics under Fiction in my personal library!
In that case, why would there even be a risk of her breaking in the first place?

[Asarlai]

I'm pretty sure V is a good enough wizard to know how these things work.

That said, don't you toss figurines of wondrous power? Same idea.

[ricorum]

1. Go outside.
2. Pick up a hand-size rock
3. Toss the rock onto the ground.
4. Watch rock not break.
5. ????
6. PROFIT!

Anyway, you have to have either a really weak rock or throw it hard directly at the ground to break it on stone/pavement.

Well Done.

[Gurgeh]

It's worse than that: it'll take more than res to restore Haley to normal and finding the tiny bits of stone will be really difficult.
I'll say it as plainly as possible: no, you're wrong.

If we assume that somehow Haley's statue does get shattered (and I'd say that the many, many posts in this topic pointing out that it's not trivially easy to break a small object made of solid rock), it won't lead to any long-term incapacitation. Consider:

An arm or a leg breaking off is not super likely in the first place (remember, the art style makes limbs and necks look super-flimsy but that's just cosmetic). Even if it happens, it's trivially fixed by Break Enchantment as long as no pieces are lost; to quote the SRD:

If a petrified character cracks or breaks, but the broken pieces are joined with the body as he returns to flesh, he is unharmed. If the character’s petrified body is incomplete when it returns to flesh, the body is likewise incomplete and there is some amount of permanent hit point loss and/or debilitation.
Even if something's permanently gone, Durkon can easily cast Regenerate to restore whatever's missing - it won't be back in time for the immediate fight, perhaps, but there won't be any permanent damage.

If the statue's pulverised, then that's not so good. Break Enchantment or Stone to Flesh won't be enough in this case, as Haley will die the instant she's restored. However, Resurrection only needs a token piece of a dead body in order to work, and given it can be used on something that's been Disintegrated, I'd say that a fragment of a shattered statue would do just fine.

The only way for Haley to be removed from the team in any way that Durkon couldn't fix with a spell he has access to is for her statue to be taken entirely away from Elan, intact or otherwise. If Durkon has no statue and no physical remains, then the only way to get Haley back in action is True Resurrection, which as a level 9 spell is still way out of his league. Even so, a scroll would not be impossible to find, and there's a chance that Malack may be capable of casting it (pointless speculation there, given how little we've seen of his spellcasting capabilities).

It's overwhelmingly likely that Haley's petrification is simply there to stop the fight against Zz'dtri being a complete non-event; however this round against the Linear Guild turns out, I find it highly unlikely that Haley will still be out of commission once it's over.

[ThePhantasm]

It just occurred to me that, there being few things more dangerous than a Halfling with a rock, Belkar should throw Haley at Yukyuk, killing the kobold. Haley would be fine, albeit having a bit of chunky salsa on her. Two birds with one stone, this.

[Herald Alberich]

In regards to the original topic, Elan could reduce the (already low) risk of breakage by using a table, or crouching before he tosses it. Nothing says you have to toss it far, just on a firm surface.


Actually, here's what I wanna know.

If Elan manages to get to Durkon and have him cast break enchantment, does that remove just the flesh to stone, or does it also automatically remove shrink item.

If the former, that would be a riot!

And keep in mind, her weapons distance and sneak attack range are unaffected by size, the magic based damage form +5 and frostburst are unaffected, and so are the sneak attack D6's. So she loses some of the d8 base damage in exchange for a massive boost to Dex form size, a massive boost too hit form size, a massive boost to AC form size, and a massive boost too skills like Hide and Move silently form size.

For a rouge, that's a win right there.

That might be amusing, though not likely. Shrink Item wears off by itself after one day/level, so it wouldn't be a permanent condition. It might be fun to have some miniature Haley hijinks for a while. It would wear off as soon as she jumped from one surface to another, though, right? Or whenever she asks V to remove it. Yeah, I don't think that's gonna happen, really.


The only way for Haley to be removed from the team in any way that Durkon couldn't fix with a spell he has access to is for her statue to be taken entirely away from Elan, intact or otherwise. If Durkon has no statue and no physical remains, then the only way to get Haley back in action is True Resurrection, which as a level 9 spell is still way out of his league. Even so, a scroll would not be impossible to find, and there's a chance that Malack may be capable of casting it (pointless speculation there, given how little we've seen of his spellcasting capabilities).

Worse than that: a petrified character is not dead, so True Resurrection would not work. If the Giant wants to make Haley's petrification a major obstacle, having someone take her away from Elan would be the best way. The only way to get her back would be to recover the statue.

[SPoD]

That might be amusing, though not likely. Shrink Item wears off by itself after one day/level, so it wouldn't be a permanent condition. It might be fun to have some miniature Haley hijinks for a while. It would wear off as soon as she jumped from one surface to another, though, right? Or whenever she asks V to remove it. Yeah, I don't think that's gonna happen, really.

As soon as Haley's not petrified, she's not an item anymore. So she would be an ineligible target for Shrink Item, and the spell would no longer affect her.

[ArcaneSaint]

Hmm, Feather Fall is a 1st level Bard Spell I believe. We also know Elan is at least a lvl 1 Bard. As Shrink Item doesn't actually state that an item has to be tossed hard onto a surface Elan just has to cast Feather Fall (the subjects take no damage upon landing while the spell is in effect) and then toss Haley onto the floor.

Of course, we don't know whether or not Elan knows Feather Fall. (maybe the guys from that one thread know, the one where they collect every character's know stats/items/spells etc.)

But, knowing Elan, if he casts Feather Fall to protect his loved one from minor injuries, it'll probably make him hit his spells per day limit for whatever lvl Feather Fall is. A few strips later, he will find himself hanging from the edge of a cliff (or a huge drop), the only way to save himself is by either
a) casting Feather Fall which he can't 'cause he's hit the limit
b) grabbing the hand his father is reaching out to him to pull him up, which he won't 'cause his father's Evil (and he probably tortured/killed someone to acquire the hand he's holding out anyway)
The right answer is C) none of the above

[Herald Alberich]

As soon as Haley's not petrified, she's not an item anymore. So she would be an ineligible target for Shrink Item, and the spell would no longer affect her.

Sure, but then what's the point of tossing her to the ground before breaking the enchantment, and by extension this entire discussion? The spell's already cast, Haley's already shrunken, so wacky mini-Haley hijinks would seem to be in order if the spell isn't removed first. It's the sort of nonstandard rules interpretation this comic might like to make some jokes about.

I still don't think it'll happen, though, to be clear.

[blazingshadow]

shrink item also makes it clothlike no? not a problem about her breaking then

[Kish]

Sure, but then what's the point of tossing her to the ground before breaking the enchantment,
The answer that comes to my mind is, "So that Break Enchantment will have only one enchantment to target, instead of breaking the Shrink Item and turning Haley back into what she was before the most recent and lower level spell affected her--a stone statue."

[Herald Alberich]

shrink item also makes it clothlike no? not a problem about her breaking then

It can, but doesn't have to; caster's choice. It's hard to tell, but mini-Haley still looks solid and not floppy when Elan's holding her. Plus, V calls her a "figurine" and not a "doll".


The answer that comes to my mind is, "So that Break Enchantment will have only one enchantment to target, instead of breaking the Shrink Item and turning Haley back into what she was before the most recent and lower level spell affected her--a stone statue."

Now that makes sense.

[Gurgeh]

Of course, we don't know whether or not Elan knows Feather Fall. (maybe the guys from that one thread know, the one where they collect every character's know stats/items/spells etc.)
I think it's pretty clear that Elan doesn't know Feather Fall - there are at least two (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0180.html) occasions (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0722.html) where V has used the spell. On both occasions, Elan was present and had significantly more reason than V to cast - the first time, he was in immediate personal danger (unlike V, who was safe), and the second time was to save Haley, which speaks for itself. On the first occasion, Elan didn't know V was with the party, and on the second occasion Tarquin's plan worked only because splitting the party allowed only one casting of feather fall. In both cases, Elan would have cast the spell himself if he had possessed it: the first time because he wasn't aware that anyone else would have been able to bail the party out, the second time because it would have allowed him and V to continue escaping rather than surrender to Tarquin. Elan's a spontaneous caster, too, so you can't make any "he didn't prepare it then but he might have prepared it now" calls.

tl;dr version: it is highly unlikely that Elan knows Feather Fall.

Herald Alberich: I'd forgotten that petrification didn't count as death for the purposes of a soul's location etc. I guess Miracle followed by raise dead or one of the resurrections would probably do the trick, but that's obviously just as inaccessible to Durkon.

EDIT: Apparently True Resurrection is not as rare as I had thought (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0399.html) in OotS-world. NFI if other ninth-level spells are open to the highest bidder or if there's just a particularly lucrative trade in rezzes.

[Herald Alberich]

Herald Alberich: I'd forgotten that petrification didn't count as death for the purposes of a soul's location etc. I guess Miracle followed by raise dead or one of the resurrections would probably do the trick, but that's obviously just as inaccessible to Durkon.

A Miracle to transport the statue to Durkon's location, followed by a simple Break Enchantment, might work, though looking at the spell description I don't know if such a use would incur an XP cost. If so, even if Malack is that powerful, I doubt he'd burn the XP to help Durkon in that way. That's some really out-there speculation we've gotten into now, though.


EDIT: Apparently True Resurrection is not as rare as I had thought (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0399.html) in OotS-world. NFI if other ninth-level spells are open to the highest bidder or if there's just a particularly lucrative trade in rezzes.

I've wondered about that line, especially compared to Haley's own later line (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0579.html) about 17th-level clerics. I believe Haley's just a cautious, suspicious pessimist who assumes the worst-case scenario: in this case, that Nale's cronies would be able to find and pay a 17th-level cleric even though she probably couldn't. I doubt she's actually right about that (especially considering the punchline panel that shows what said cronies are actually doing).

[ArcaneSaint]

Wait, this is not really clear: does "Flesh to Stone" petrify the target? Because the Petrification description (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/conditionSummary.htm#petrified) states that "A petrified character has been turned to stone and is considered unconscious. If a petrified character cracks or breaks, but the broken pieces are joined with the body as he returns to flesh, he is unharmed.", but Flesh to Stone (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/fleshToStone.htm) says "If the statue resulting from this spell is broken or damaged, the subject (if ever returned to its original state) has similar damage or deformities."

Where is the line between being turned into stone and being petrified?

[hamishspence]

If you don't join the pieces with the body- petrification has similar effect:

If the character’s petrified body is incomplete when it returns to flesh, the body is likewise incomplete and there is some amount of permanent hit point loss and/or debilitation.

[ArcaneSaint]

Yeah, but with flesh to stone it is implied that any damage sustained in stone form will remain in flesh (ie: break of a leg and it won't get reconnected to the body) whereas with petrification it seems to be that if you bring all the pieces of the statue back together the "cracks" in the stone are healed when the character returns to its flesh form. At least, that's how I read it, I might be wrong.

[Gurgeh]

The condition summary for petrification is more detailed than that of Flesh to Stone, so pragmatically speaking it takes precedence. Unless Flesh to Stone's discrepancies are explicitly noted in the spell entry as being an effect of the spell distinct from that of "ordinary" petrification, they should not be considered to overrule the rules for being petrified.