[WoD] Hunter: New or Old?

[Morty]

The question is as in the title: do you prefer Hunter: The Reckoning from Old World of Darkness or Hunter: The Vigil from New World of Darkness?
Personally, I like the new Hunter better, because it describes normal mortal folks fighting the supernatural, not chosen ones imbued with powers - relatively weak ones, but powers all the same. Reckoning also ignores Society of Leopold, which is a bit sad. Still, Hunter: The Reckoning has some interesting themes and motifs going for it - the strong sense of mission and a higher purpose, mostly. What do you guys think?
Oh, and a disclaimer: I'm mostly talking fluff-wise here. The mechanics of Hunter: The Reckoning are a mess, but that's normal in oWoD. :smalltongue:

[wayfare]

The question is as in the title: do you prefer Hunter: The Reckoning from Old World of Darkness or Hunter: The Vigil from New World of Darkness?
Personally, I think I like the new Hunter better, because it describes normal mortal folks fighting the supernatural, not chosen ones imbued with powers - relatively weak ones, but powers all the same. Reckoning also ignores Society of Leopold, which is a bit sad. Still, Hunter: The Reckoning has some interesting themes and motifs going for it - the strong sense of mission and a higher purpose, mostly. What do you guys think?
Oh, and a disclaimer: I'm mostly talking fluff-wise here. The mechanics of Hunter: The Reckoning are a mess, but that's normal in oWoD. :smalltongue:

I love OWoD hunter, but I think you had to put in a lot of effort to find its spot in the setting. The whole "we are divine heroes" was kind of overshadowed by Demon...

[Comet]

The Vigil, by a long shot.

The Reckoning had a lot of good ideas but, in the end, the execution was really rather silly with all the crazy magic powers that lost the feeling of being human that was supposed to be the whole point of the thing.

The Vigil takes everything good about the Reckoning, namely the struggle of humans against the dark and the mysterious, and takes away the superheroics. There's still heroics, plenty of it, and cool tricks and gadgets you can use against the monsters, but your characters are still human in the end. That makes it all so much more intense.

[Järnblomma]

I love Vigil to bits. I love the whole Joes and Janes who simply have some more info than others. I think Vigil is superior fluff-wise, but I have never actually played Reckoning, only read about it.

[Daisuke1133]

Hate to make waves like this. But contrary to the popular opinion being expressed here, I like Reckoning better. But this is likely because Reckoning has characters that I would actually like to play. Vigil... not so much. And concerning the thing about average Joes and Janes, I thought it was made pretty clear that they aren't supposed to know about the truth about the world that surrounds them. And if they do happen to find out, it's likely to be the last thing they ever do.

[Yuki Akuma]

(Psst: Most conpiracies in Vigil are controlled by supernatural creatures of some description. Project VALKYRIE is controlled by vampires, for instance, while Division Six is controlled by a cabal of Seers of the Throne.)

[Morty]

Like I suspected, Vigil appears to be more popular. As I said, I agree. Reckoning isn't consistent on just who the PCs are - on one hand, they're recruited from among common people, but someone who can turn a length of pipe into a razor-sharp blade isn't normal by any definition. With that said, I do find the "higher calling" part of the fluff interesting.
I suppose that with the power level of oWoD being higher - from what I've heard - the writers might have thought unpowered mortals wouldn't stand a chance... but then, Society of Leopold threatens vampires even though only a few of their members have (minor)powers by the virtue of True Faith. Which brings me to my perhaps biggest beef with Reckoning - it reinforces the notion that unpowered humans are worthless, which Vigil subverts.
Interestingly enough, I found a PDF on the White Wolf forum that helps adapt Reckoning fluff to nWoD mechanics, cleaning it up a bit. I really have no idea why H:tR rules do not feature aggravated damage...

[The Rose Dragon]

Interestingly enough, I found a PDF on the White Wolf forum that helps adapt Reckoning fluff to nWoD mechanics, cleaning it up a bit. I really have no idea why H:tR rules do not feature aggravated damage...

Because 1) they cannot soak lethal damage with Stamina and they already heal very slowly, and 2) nothing deals aggravated damage to them anyway.

[Jerthanis]

Reckoning was interesting, but the 'divine inspiration' and chosen nature of their powers made me wonder about how freaking weak those powers were. If the divine were recruiting warriors to fight against the dark, you'd think they'd give them something more powerful than "If you touch a monster, it will produce invisible smoke for an hour". In the end it comes down to guns and swords and gasoline, so the divine would be better off imbuing their chosen with a winning lottery ticket instead.

I like the flavor of Vigil better anyway, and while I don't like the specific conspiracies they provide, I like the idea of a transition through them, which would grant a nice sense of scale.

One thing I did like about Reckoning, (and it actually might be in Vigil somewhere and I didn't see it) was the idea that the Hunters were actually not unified as to what they were supposed to do. It seemed like a lot of Reckoning stories would basically be 'religious' debates between PCs. Vigil seems like the people involved are a lot more certain, more unified, and fighting a much more unambiguous battle against things that are "no seriously, bad news for humans" than Reckoning.

I dunno, overall, I prefer Vigil, but I had an absolute blast with a Reckoning game which would've been very different in Vigil.

[WalkingTarget]

Reckoning was interesting, but the 'divine inspiration' and chosen nature of their powers made me wonder about how freaking weak those powers were. If the divine were recruiting warriors to fight against the dark, you'd think they'd give them something more powerful than "If you touch a monster, it will produce invisible smoke for an hour". In the end it comes down to guns and swords and gasoline, so the divine would be better off imbuing their chosen with a winning lottery ticket instead.

H:tR was actually the first White Wolf game I played (it was released during my first semester at college) and third overall (after Call of Cthulhu and Deadlands). Having come from those previous games, I was very familiar with dealing with situations while incredibly outgunned and I liked it quite a bit. Hell, one of my most iconic characters from my college gaming career was my private investigator Martyr from our long-running Hunter game.

When Exalted came out a few years later my gaming crew had many a discussion as to the relationship between Hunters and the returned Solars.


One thing I did like about Reckoning, (and it actually might be in Vigil somewhere and I didn't see it) was the idea that the Hunters were actually not unified as to what they were supposed to do. It seemed like a lot of Reckoning stories would basically be 'religious' debates between PCs. Vigil seems like the people involved are a lot more certain, more unified, and fighting a much more unambiguous battle against things that are "no seriously, bad news for humans" than Reckoning.

Oh, my THIS. As I said, I played a Martyr archetype in a group with 2 Avengers and 2 Judges (and a Visionary who played occasionally). The side discussions and trying to come up with appropriate approaches to the various situations our ST presented to us was most of the fun of the campaign.

[Morty]

Because 1) they cannot soak lethal damage with Stamina and they already heal very slowly, and 2) nothing deals aggravated damage to them anyway.

What about werewolves' claws, magic powers and such?


Reckoning was interesting, but the 'divine inspiration' and chosen nature of their powers made me wonder about how freaking weak those powers were. If the divine were recruiting warriors to fight against the dark, you'd think they'd give them something more powerful than "If you touch a monster, it will produce invisible smoke for an hour". In the end it comes down to guns and swords and gasoline, so the divine would be better off imbuing their chosen with a winning lottery ticket instead.

Maybe it simply couldn't? There's bound to be a limit on how much power you can grant to a large group of lowly mortals. Heralds are pretty enigmatic, so there can be a lot of reasons. The real reason being, of course, that powers or no powers, the Hunt is supposed to be a desperate struggle.


One thing I did like about Reckoning, (and it actually might be in Vigil somewhere and I didn't see it) was the idea that the Hunters were actually not unified as to what they were supposed to do. It seemed like a lot of Reckoning stories would basically be 'religious' debates between PCs. Vigil seems like the people involved are a lot more certain, more unified, and fighting a much more unambiguous battle against things that are "no seriously, bad news for humans" than Reckoning.

I'm not sure if I agree. In both games, Hunters are pretty divided, but I wouldn't say it's more so in either game. If anything, Reckoning has always seemed to have a much stronger sense of a unified mission - "Inherit the Earth". They just differ - strongly - on how to go about doing it. In the Vigil... well, all Compacts and Conspiracies seem to mistrust one another at best. I suppose the biggest difference would be indeed that the Imbued are more likely to interact with monsters nonviolently than those on the Vigil.

[The Rose Dragon]

What about werewolves' claws, magic powers and such?

Hunters are still human (ostensibly), and thus have no special weakness to those things, any more than they are weak against bullets and or very strong electrical shocks. Lethal damage to them is what aggravated damage is to (almost) everyone else. That is why it is not a special concern for them.

It is problematic when you consider powers of other splats interact with aggravated damage, but classic World of Darkness was not really meant for mixed games.

[Yuki Akuma]

Well, aggravated damage still takes longer to heal, doesn't it?

Plus, in nWoD at least, you die if all your health levels fill up with aggravated damage, while you just go into a coma if they're all filled with lethal damage.

[WitchSlayer]

Probably the vigil, I like the whole modern day, normal vampire hunter type.

The next Hunter game I'm going to play in I'm probably going to roll up the Stig just for fun. Also, I love the Malleus Maleficarum, particularly some of the powers they get like the ability to turn a weapon, improvised or otherwise, into a holy weapon. I remember seeing the picture in the book of a person wielding a holy wrench and I fell in love.

[Ogremindes]

Probably the vigil, I like the whole modern day, normal vampire hunter type.

The next Hunter game I'm going to play in I'm probably going to roll up the Stig just for fun. Also, I love the Malleus Maleficarum, particularly some of the powers they get like the ability to turn a weapon, improvised or otherwise, into a holy weapon. I remember seeing the picture in the book of a person wielding a holy wrench and I fell in love.

Reminds me of the Discworld book Carpe Jugulum:
'An axe isn't even a holy symbol!'
'Oh.' Oats looked crestfallen. Agnes saw his shoulders sag as he lowered the blade.
Then he looked up, smiled brightly and said said, 'Let's make it so.'
Agnes saw the blade leave a gold trail in the air as it swept around.

[Neon Knight]

H:tR was actually the first White Wolf game I played (it was released during my first semester at college) and third overall (after Call of Cthulhu and Deadlands).

Not to go on too much of a tangent, but... I was confused by this remark. I thought Deadlands was published by Pinnacle Entertainment, and that Chaosium did the Call of Cthulhu most people mean when they mention that. Was I mistaken?

[Ogremindes]

Not to go on too much of a tangent, but... I was confused by this remark. I thought Deadlands was published by Pinnacle Entertainment, and that Chaosium did the Call of Cthulhu most people mean when they mention that. Was I mistaken?

I think he means 3rd Tabletop RPG overall.

[Neon Knight]

Huh. You're right. I don't know how I misread that the first time.

*cough*

Right, nothing to see here... I prefer the New Hunter to the Old one, pretty much for the reasons thus stated.

[WalkingTarget]

I think he means 3rd Tabletop RPG overall.

Yeah, this. It was not phrased as clearly as it might have been.

[Morty]

I just thought of a more or less related question... would Hunters count as Sleepers for the purposes of Paradox in oWoD Mage? Both Imbued and non-Imbued hunters realize the existence of supernatural, but on the other hand, they're mortals who believe in static reality. Same goes for nWoD I suppose, but I don't know how exactly Paradox works there.

[The Rose Dragon]

I'm for whichever option makes Mages weaker.

[Yuki Akuma]

I just thought of a more or less related question... would Hunters count as Sleepers for the purposes of Paradox in oWoD Mage? Both Imbued and non-Imbued hunters realize the existence of supernatural, but on the other hand, they're mortals who believe in static reality. Same goes for nWoD I suppose, but I don't know how exactly Paradox works there.

In nWoD, I think having a template (and yes, Hunter is a template) makes you cease to be considered "mortal" for things like Paradox or Lunacy (or Havoc, if you're playing Genius).

Also, nWoD Paradox: basically, it's the false reality of the Fallen World lashing out at the True Reality of the Supernal Realms. Each mortal contains a little shard of the Abyss within their souls, which causes some sort of resonance that makes magic more dangerous to use the more mortals are there to witness it.

Mortals also erode magic over time even if they didn't witness it being cast, although in that case it doesn't cause Paradox - it simply dispells the spell.

[The Glyphstone]

In nWoD, I think having a template (and yes, Hunter is a template) makes you cease to be considered "mortal" for things like Paradox or Lunacy (or Havoc, if you're playing Genius).

Also, nWoD Paradox: basically, it's the false reality of the Fallen World lashing out at the True Reality of the Supernal Realms. Each mortal contains a little shard of the Abyss within their souls, which causes some sort of resonance that makes magic more dangerous to use the more mortals are there to witness it.

Mortals also erode magic over time even if they didn't witness it being cast, although in that case it doesn't cause Paradox - it simply dispells the spell.

Yeah, I liked OWoD Paradox better, at least the version of it that could be summed up as "The universe backhands you for doin' it wrong".

[Morty]

Hunters are specifically said in their rulebook to be suspectible to the Lunacy in nWoD. Given the nWoD definition of Paradox, they definetly count for this purpose as well. Although I agree oWoD Paradox is better.
As for oWoD, I suppose "whatever makes Mages weaker" works.

[Yuki Akuma]

Of course, Sleepwalker and Wolf-Kin aren't expensive merits if you wanna be immune...

Also, nWoD actually defined Paradox is infinitely better than oWoD's "the ST can smack you down at any time" version. :smalltongue:

[Project_Mayhem]

See I quite like the nWoD paradox fluff - Mages literally broke reality, and now they have to tentatively reach through the Lovecraftian cracks that they created to use magic ...

With regards to the point, Morty, I enjoy Vigil more, but then you knew that :smalltongue:

[Morty]

Mechanically speaking, nWoD Paradox might be better. I wouldn't really know. But flavor-wise, I prefer the oWoD version - mages rewrite reality at their whim, but it resists and rewrites them back if they're too overt about it.
As for the Sleepwaker and Wolfkin merits, being immune to Lunacy is a very nice thing, but being immune to Paradox isn't - no reason to make it too easy for the witches. :smalltongue:

[Yuki Akuma]

Being able to get a friendly Mage cast a buff spell on you is nice, though. :smalltongue:

[Morty]

It would be nice, if not for the "friendly Mage" part being problematic. Alliances between hunters and mages are mentioned to be fragile at best.

[Fox Box Socks]

I like the flavor of Vigil better anyway, and while I don't like the specific conspiracies they provide, I like the idea of a transition through them, which would grant a nice sense of scale.

One thing I did like about Reckoning, (and it actually might be in Vigil somewhere and I didn't see it) was the idea that the Hunters were actually not unified as to what they were supposed to do. It seemed like a lot of Reckoning stories would basically be 'religious' debates between PCs. Vigil seems like the people involved are a lot more certain, more unified, and fighting a much more unambiguous battle against things that are "no seriously, bad news for humans" than Reckoning.
Both of these points are addressed in Compact and Conspiracies, which I cannot heavily enough emphasize how good it is. The PDF does two things.

1. It gives all the core compacts a non-supernatural Endowment, which really helps level the playing field in cross-tier games, as they're all pretty damn useful. The Long Night, for example, gets The Prayer, giving them a pool of Willpower-like resources as long as they pray before they go to bed, while Null Mysteriis gets the appropriately named I'm Doing Science, which grants them (or lets them grant their friends) substantial bonuses to damage and tracking die by examining a piece of supernatural evidence.

2. It underscores the idea that hunter organizations are a source of conflict as well as resources. While all the groups have skeletons in their closets, Null Mysteriis, Aegis Kai Doru and Malleus Maleficarum are all on the verge of tearing each other apart. Moreover, the conspiracies are all shadowy and paranoid (it's why their called "conspiracies" and not "organizations"), and while it's doing a decent (but not perfect) job of keeping them free of supernatural influence, it's arguably doing more harm than good when it comes to relations with other hunters. A Lucifuge that manifests his diabolical powers in front of an Aegis Kai Doru is going to have a hard time convincing his fellow hunter that he's not a witch, and that conversation is almost surely going to happen at gunpoint. Fact is, most conspiracies lump their fellows in with the enemy, and most hunters dismiss them all outright. While there's nothing stopping a member of field agent of The Cheiron Group rubbing shoulders with a bokor of Les Mystere, an mystic of the Ascending Ones and a martyr of Malleus Maleficarum, there will most likely be hell to pay of the Board of Directors learns about what exactly their agent's friends are.

Philadelphia is presented as a city in shambles, with various hunter groups and cells spending far more time bickering over territory than they do actually hunting monsters.

[Chambers]

Like I suspected, Vigil appears to be more popular. As I said, I agree. Reckoning isn't consistent on just who the PCs are - on one hand, they're recruited from among common people, but someone who can turn a length of pipe into a razor-sharp blade isn't normal by any definition. With that said, I do find the "higher calling" part of the fluff interesting.
I suppose that with the power level of oWoD being higher - from what I've heard - the writers might have thought unpowered mortals wouldn't stand a chance... but then, Society of Leopold threatens vampires even though only a few of their members have (minor)powers by the virtue of True Faith. Which brings me to my perhaps biggest beef with Reckoning - it reinforces the notion that unpowered humans are worthless, which Vigil subverts.
Interestingly enough, I found a PDF on the White Wolf forum that helps adapt Reckoning fluff to nWoD mechanics, cleaning it up a bit. I really have no idea why H:tR rules do not feature aggravated damage...(emphasis mine)

I haven't played the new Hunter but I've both played and ST'd games of The Reckoning and it's one of my favorite WW games because of the fluff and story.

What I got from H:tR, what I thought it was about, was common people that were suddenly and horribly woken up to the fact that monsters were real and they controlled everything. And they didn't care about you, and would destroy you if you became a nuisance.

I didn't get the feeling that humans were worthless, just that they were near powerless. That's a different thing, and I think Hunter tried to show that as the Hunters got more powerful they were losing their qualities that made them Human, and that being Human was actually something worthwhile.

The whole bit about the Powers not giving the Hunters the full story or giving them weak superpowers, I liked it. I liked that even the Powers that gave the Hunters their powers weren't unfallible. They messed up and made mistakes, like some of the non-core Hunters - the Wayward and Hermit (or maybe those weren't mistakes, eh?).


When Exalted came out a few years later my gaming crew had many a discussion as to the relationship between Hunters and the returned Solars.

Possible Spoiler about the origins of Hunters
From wiki (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hunter:_The_Reckoning).

"In the book Time of Judgment for the World of Darkness chapter 3 reveals that the Hunters are reincarnations of the Solar Exalted. It also reveals that all the supernatural groups in the World of Darkness are reincarnations of different Exalted groups, and it hints that the major conflicts in the Exalted world were a result of someone looking into the future and seeing what the World of Darkness had become."

[Talakeal]

I'm for whichever option makes Mages weaker.

Actually, if I remember correctly this was exactly how hunters handled it. They counted as sleepers when it would hurt their enemies (for example counting as witnesses for vulgar magic) but would count as awakened when it would help them (for example resisting the delirium of Garou), in effect they had the best of both worlds.

[WalkingTarget]

Possible Spoiler about the origins of Hunters
From wiki (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hunter:_The_Reckoning).

"In the book Time of Judgment for the World of Darkness chapter 3 reveals that the Hunters are reincarnations of the Solar Exalted. It also reveals that all the supernatural groups in the World of Darkness are reincarnations of different Exalted groups, and it hints that the major conflicts in the Exalted world were a result of someone looking into the future and seeing what the World of Darkness had become."

Cool, good to see our random musings/assumptions turned out to be right on the money. Although the teaser advertisements for Exalted used the phrase "before the world of darkness" or something similar, which was kind of a hint.

Edit @ V - Yeah, and the setting is stronger for it, in my opinion. It allows them to play around with the setting history/dynamics if they're not worried about matching things up. It seemed like they were even leaning away from that interpretation by the late first edition sourcebooks, but that may have just been them getting ready for the new one.

[Yuki Akuma]

That's no longer true for second edition Exalted, though.

[Talyn]

Definitely casting my vote for the "new" World of Darkness hunters. The whole point of hunter, to me, is to play ordinary people. People without supernatural powers saying "hey, vampire, f*** you" is much more interesting and accessible than the weirdly quasi-divine Hunters in OWoD, who are basically just as inhuman as the things they hunt.

[Aron Times]

I like the nWoD in general because all characters have a Morality meter. In the oWoD, vampires were punished for committing murder, but werewolves and mages and hunters and whatnot could get away with just about anything save for the social repercussions of being a mass murderer.

It's particularly annoying when you're a high Humanity vampire and you're fighting a psychotic hunter. If you kill the hunter, you get dinged on your Humanity, but if the Hunter kills you and everyone around you (Wayward), he doesn't get dinged.

[The Glyphstone]

Didn't OWoD vampires have all kinds of alternative morality tracks, though?

[Daisuke1133]

They did, indeed. Not counting the the stuff in Dark Ages or Victorian Age, the Paths of Enlightenment all had moralities that did not punish killing. Heck, one of them even rewarded it!

[Chambers]

I like the nWoD in general because all characters have a Morality meter. In the oWoD, vampires were punished for committing murder, but werewolves and mages and hunters and whatnot could get away with just about anything save for the social repercussions of being a mass murderer.

It's particularly annoying when you're a high Humanity vampire and you're fighting a psychotic hunter. If you kill the hunter, you get dinged on your Humanity, but if the Hunter kills you and everyone around you (Wayward), he doesn't get dinged.

That was specific to the Wayward though. They were a special type of Creed and their bit was going off the deep end. I'm pretty sure that if you pulled that stunt with any other Creed you'd be losing Humanity.

[Project_Mayhem]

They did, indeed. Not counting the the stuff in Dark Ages or Victorian Age, the Paths of Enlightenment all had moralities that did not punish killing. Heck, one of them even rewarded it!

Especially the Path of Sin, which is actually the path of 'do whatever you want, whenever'

[Daisuke1133]

I was actually talking about Path of the Beast, but Path of Sin does work for that too.

[Project_Mayhem]

Nah, Path of the beast actually has tenants you occasionally might want not to follow. Other than the one about not frenzying, Sin basically lets you do anything that furthers your interests.

And you get to enjoy sex, which is a nice side bonus for Vampires

[Daisuke1133]

Well, following the paths of enlightenment isn't supposed to be easy. The books that talk about them at length even state this quite clearly.

But I was more answering the comment that vampires aren't allowed to kill without losing morality when all the other types of supernaturals can kill as often as they like with no downsides. The fact of the matter is that this is only one way to play a vampire. The only reason it is the default is because that is the way most people are expected to act in everyday life, and is thus a bit easier to roleplay in a realistic manner.

[hangedman1984]

Definitely casting my vote for the "new" World of Darkness hunters. The whole point of hunter, to me, is to play ordinary people. People without supernatural powers saying "hey, vampire, f*** you" is much more interesting and accessible than the weirdly quasi-divine Hunters in OWoD, who are basically just as inhuman as the things they hunt.

this

I always felt the oWoD hunters were a bunch of hypocrites

[The Glyphstone]

this

I always felt the oWoD hunters were a bunch of hypocrites

Wasn't that part of their shtick though? The sort of dark irony, a bit of Nietchziean "he who fights monsters becomes a monster" flavoring to emphasize the whole crapsack world that the WoD is.

[Daisuke1133]

Wasn't that part of their shtick though? The sort of dark irony, a bit of Nietchziean "he who fights monsters becomes a monster" flavoring to emphasize the whole crapsack world that the WoD is.

Exactly what I love about the old setting. Questioning whether the Hunters are still human while still trying to do the right thing is one of the main themes of Reckoning. The lack of this makes Vigil feel really dull for me.

[Chambers]

Exactly what I love about the old setting. Questioning whether the Hunters are still human while still trying to do the right thing is one of the main themes of Reckoning. The lack of this makes Vigil feel really dull for me.

Bingo. That's the core of H:tR to me. Sure, you get these powers that are weirdly-divinely inspiried, but the story in the game is whether you can retain what it means to be Human.

[The Rose Dragon]

Glad to see I wasn't the only one. Especially Innocents and Redeemers were often prone to ask questions about whether it was their right to kill the monsters when they were not exactly human themselves. Sure, the Avenger might smash first, ask questions later, but the others... not so much.

[Morty]

The "He who fights monsters" theme is present in the Vigil as well - it's involved in the more supernatural Endowements. It's still not as inherent as in the Reckoning, though.
Regarding the "normals are worthless" theme... my point was more that Hunter: The Reckoning strengthens the theme that normal people without powers can never do anything and lose at everything, which is prevalent in White Wolf games and that I'm not particularily fond of. Vigil subverts it by having normals fight supernaturals and actually win.

[WalkingTarget]

The "He who fights monsters" theme is present in the Vigil as well - it's involved in the more supernatural Endowements. It's still not as inherent as in the Reckoning, though.
Regarding the "normals are worthless" theme... my point was more that Hunter: The Reckoning strengthens the theme that normal people without powers can never do anything and lose at everything, which is prevalent in White Wolf games and that I'm not particularily fond of. Vigil subverts it by having normals fight supernaturals and actually win.

There was the Hunters Hunted sourcebook for oWoD Vampire that was much more in the "normals fighting back" vein than H:tR.

[Tokuhara]

I adore them both personally. I have no issues either way, since both let you roll out fun things, like playing Alexander Anderson from Hellsing or Abraham Van Helsing from Dracula. It isn't that "normal guys will die," so much as "non-religious normal guys will die," which is far more correct. I mean, we are talking about Vampires, Werewolves, and Demons here... Isn't that the Vatican's specialty?

[Talyn]

The Malleus Maleficarum certainly think so.

/rimshot

[Tokuhara]

The Malleus Maleficarum certainly think so.

/rimshot

Malleus Maleficarum aren't stupid when it comes to combating Evil. They know dam well they are weaker than their prey, and don't delude themselves into believing they are superior. They do their job because it is God's Will.

[Othniel Edden]

It would be nice, if not for the "friendly Mage" part being problematic. Alliances between hunters and mages are mentioned to be fragile at best.

What were they called in nWoD? Banishers? It makes sense to me that these types might join hunters. They fit the right mindset. Plus it could be a way to port in old Reckoning material if you did want to play a supernatural chosen type.

[The Glyphstone]

What were they called in nWoD? Banishers? It makes sense to me that these types might join hunters. They fit the right mindset. Plus it could be a way to port in old Reckoning material if you did want to play a supernatural chosen type.

Banishers are insane, though. They'd be even more unreliable than normal mages.

[Othniel Edden]

Banishers are insane, though. They'd be even more unreliable than normal mages.

Aye. But not every hunter would know that. And some hunter groups would rather use them first rather than waste them on the spot. I'd even argue that most banishers are simply ignorant of the truth, rather than insane, in most cases.

How hard would it be for the brother of a mage that had a particularly troublesome awakening to become a hunter because he wants to help his brother?

Or a mage with a sciency background might awaken and get recruited by a Null Mysterius to study his powers.

[Fox Box Socks]

Unless every single one of the Hunters in question was a Sleepwalker, I don't see it working out. All Banishers, even those without any formal training, learn very quickly that Paradox is an enormous barrier between themselves and Sleepers. While it's theoretically possible for a Banisher to eschew magic entirely and run with a group of Hunters focused on Witches, the temptation to use magic to achieve his goals will always be there. What happens when he runs into a situation where one of his friends might die, and he could easily fix the problem via magic?

Once he slips (and he will), the Banisher will quickly find that his former comrades have lumped him in with the enemy. Violence ensues.

[Talyn]

The other Hunters don't have to be Sleepwalkers - as long as the Banisher can avoid using Vulgar magic around them, there is no issue regarding paradox. A bigger concern would be the VAST power disaparity between the Mage (the very top of the NWoD power food-chain) and the Hunters (the very bottom) - some players might start to resent it.

Also, regarding Hunter's "lumping in Mages with the Enemy" - that depends on the cell. Malleus Maleficarum and the Knights of St. George always would, but pretty much every other Hunter compact and conspiracy could very well make the determination that Mages are human, not monsters, and decide that in the fight against the REAL bad guys, they are on the same side.

[Yuki Akuma]

The other Hunters don't have to be Sleepwalkers - as long as the Banisher can avoid using Vulgar magic around them, there is no issue regarding paradox. A bigger concern would be the VAST power disaparity between the Mage (the very top of the NWoD power food-chain) and the Hunters (the very bottom) - some players might start to resent it.

Well, actually... even non-Vulgar magic can provoke Paradox, if it's obviously infeasible.

Such as hitting someone with lightning twice. That's going to raise a few eyebrows and provoke a few Paradox rolls.

And as the Hunters know he is a Mage, their little shards of the Abyss are going to be pinging every time he does anything especially noteworthy.

[Morty]

Also, regarding Hunter's "lumping in Mages with the Enemy" - that depends on the cell. Malleus Maleficarum and the Knights of St. George always would, but pretty much every other Hunter compact and conspiracy could very well make the determination that Mages are human, not monsters, and decide that in the fight against the REAL bad guys, they are on the same side.

You're forgetting the Aegis Kai Doru, who hate mages. The Loyalists of Thule aren't too fond of them either.
While Mages make a much more likely ally for the Hunters than pretty much any other supernatural type, the problem remains that the hunters can never be sure the witch is going to stay on their side. Or that he or she isn't just playing them as pawns in some game they can hardly understand.

[Pyrophilios]

Cheiron Hunters on the other hand just love mages...

... and all these juicy magical organs they sport.

There are no longer any rules that dictate hate between specific groups in nWoD. Makes crossovers that much easier.

As long as the players don't decide to kill each others character they can function just fine together...
... except for prometheans.

[Fox Box Socks]

Also, regarding Hunter's "lumping in Mages with the Enemy" - that depends on the cell. Malleus Maleficarum and the Knights of St. George always would, but pretty much every other Hunter compact and conspiracy could very well make the determination that Mages are human, not monsters, and decide that in the fight against the REAL bad guys, they are on the same side.
This would be true except for the fact that we're talking about Banishers. As a group, they're of the "all Mages everywhere must go" variety, which means that if they join up with a Hunter cell, either it will already be one that shares their belief or they'll instill that belief in them over time.

If a Banisher (in disguise as a Sleeper) hooks up with a Hunter cell that has friendly ties with a local Acanthus accountant, the very first thing the Banisher is going to do is try to convince his fellows that all Mages everywhere are evil, no exceptions, and that their friend needs to be put to the torch.