Is there anything stopping an expert 4/warrior1 from entering Ur-Priest?

[Calintares]

I've been trying to see what the most mundane way to do it would be. I think it should work, but I'm not all that experienced with how cross-class max ranks work when you're multicalssing.

[Jack_Simth]

I've been trying to see what the most mundane way to do it would be. I think it should work, but I'm not all that experienced with how cross-class max ranks work when you're multicalssing.
Yes, it would work just fine. Mind you, NPC classes get the standard array, or at best, the nonelite array, so don't really have the stats to support being a reasonable threat as an Ur-Priest, but it's a valid entry. You'll want to do it as Expert-2/Warrior-1/Expert+2, though.

[nedz]

It should work fine, though the spell focus feat will seem a little odd.
Skills are confusing.
Basically if a skill is a class skill in any of your classes then it is always considered a class skill for purposes of the max limit.
When you take a level in a class for which it is not listed as a class skill however: you still pay two points per rank.

[Calintares]

Yes, it would work just fine. Mind you, NPC classes get the standard array, or at best, the nonelite array, so don't really have the stats to support being a reasonable threat as an Ur-Priest, but it's a valid entry. You'll want to do it as Expert-2/Warrior-1/Expert+2, though.

That's the progression I figured would work best. And I guess you'd want to have 16 or more wisdom so that you could cast 9th level spells by level 15.

What would be a good class or prc to enter once you're done with ur-priest?

[Thurbane]

You could dip Suel Arcanamach, and dip Ur-Priest, then into Mystic Theurge for dual casting progression?

[ThunderCat]

Yes, it would work just fine. Mind you, NPC classes get the standard array, or at best, the nonelite array, so don't really have the stats to support being a reasonable threat as an Ur-Priest, but it's a valid entry. You'll want to do it as Expert-2/Warrior-1/Expert+2, though.I believe that's NPCs, not NPC classes. PCs taking NPC classes are still treated like PCs and use the same method for gaining ability scores as other PCs.

[Eldariel]

Yes, it would work just fine. Mind you, NPC classes get the standard array, or at best, the nonelite array, so don't really have the stats to support being a reasonable threat as an Ur-Priest, but it's a valid entry. You'll want to do it as Expert-2/Warrior-1/Expert+2, though.

I dunno, Middle-Age Human with 13 Wis will have 17 by level 12 (when Ur-Priest gets 7th level spells), which certainly counts as a "reasonable threat" IMHO. Though yeah, the last 2 levels are more iffy to get with Nonelite Array. If you're of a wis-bonus race (say, Aasimar), then it could be done by level 14 tho.

[Runestar]

I believe that's NPCs, not NPC classes. PCs taking NPC classes are still treated like PCs and use the same method for gaining ability scores as other PCs.

NPCs typically use the non-elite array (13,12,11,10,9,8).

However, you could have something like a kobold with 1 class lv (to get the elite array), then tack on 4 npc class lvs, finally entering ur-priest. The end result is being able to cast 9th lv spells at cr11. :smalltongue:

Oh yeah, the adamantine horror already does this at cr9...:smallsigh:

[Thurbane]

I believe that's NPCs, not NPC classes. PCs taking NPC classes are still treated like PCs and use the same method for gaining ability scores as other PCs.
Seconded...

[Calintares]

Even with the nonelite array, placing 13 in wis, being venerable and using every skill increase on wis would give you 19 by the time you get to level 15. (there's no way you'll have a high enough wis to get bonus 9th level spells at lv. 14) Your physical stats would be terrible, but with the ability to cast up to two 9th levels spells per day you ought to make do. In a crisis you could use miracle to cast polymorph or something.

About miracle, how does it interract with an ur-priest?

[Runestar]

You could planar-bind an efreet or something and steal its wish-SLA to give yourself +3 inherent bonus to wis (amongst other stats), as well as procure a periapt of wis+6. So getting 28wis by lv11, not that hard. :smallcool:

[Divide by Zero]

NPCs typically use the non-elite array (13,12,11,10,9,8).

However, you could have something like a kobold with 1 class lv (to get the elite array), then tack on 4 npc class lvs, finally entering ur-priest. The end result is being able to cast 9th lv spells at cr11. :smalltongue:

Or, since you're the DM, you could just screw the rules and give it whatever stats you want.

[Hirax]

About miracle, how does it interract with an ur-priest?

The same as any other spell, except you're not just stealthily siphoning power from the Gods at that point, you're tricking them into giving it to you.

[T.G. Oskar]

Isn't it supposed that when you give a NPC a unique class progression, you can use the elite array for it? Recall that standard/non-elite arrays are for common monsters and run-of-the-mill NPCs, but those meant to be special are allowed the elite array (so while a kobold warrior or rogue may the standard array and a kobold sorcerer may use the non-elite array, when referring to Peemoo the venerable dragonwrought kobold sorcerer you use the elite array). Entering a PrC and tweaking stats usually opens the elite array for them.

Consider the following: if the expert 4/warrior 1 is just your run-of-the-mill NPC, it uses the standard array (because it's the simplest and offers no benefit; as average as possible). If the expert 4/warrior 1 took a level of fighter, warblade, rogue or any other base class, it would be capable of using the non-elite array (generally meant for better NPCs). If the expert/warrior took the time to become a frickin' Ur-Priest and you don't work with a cabal of expert 4/warrior 1/Ur-priest X (and you give it a name, indicating he or she's someone important), then you can and MUST use the elite array. There's a reason why it exists, since PCs often roll or point-buy their scores.

So it depends on how usual it is, and since it's rare to see an Ur-priest at all, the character is definitely special (if not spectacular, since it's basically an evil cleric with slightly more skill points and reasonable BAB).

[Godskook]

Also of note for the whole 'what array' question, *ALL* monsters with class levels use the elite array, at no CR cost.

[true_shinken]

Also of note for the whole 'what array' question, *ALL* monsters with class levels use the elite array, at no CR cost.

All monsters with PC class levels, no?

[Moriato]

It should work fine, though the spell focus feat will seem a little odd.
Skills are confusing.
Basically if a skill is a class skill in any of your classes then it is always considered a class skill for purposes of the max limit.
When you take a level in a class for which it is not listed as a class skill however: you still pay two points per rank.

I don't think this is true, without a feat. Isn't there's a feat out there (I forget the name) that changes the way your cross class skills work to exactly this?

[Divide by Zero]

I don't think this is true, without a feat. Isn't there's a feat out there (I forget the name) that changes the way your cross class skills work to exactly this?

Able Learner makes all skills cost 1 point per rank, regardless of class, but it doesn't affect the cap. I don't know of any feat that affects the cap, with the obvious exception of feats that turn skills into class skills.

[Zaq]

I don't think this is true, without a feat. Isn't there's a feat out there (I forget the name) that changes the way your cross class skills work to exactly this?

No, he's correct. Once a class skill, always a class skill for the purposes of max rank, but not for the purposes of cost per rank. The feat Able Learner (Races of Destiny, 1st-level human only) makes cross-class ranks cost 1 point per rank instead of 2 points per rank, so if you can get a skill as a class skill once, it effectively stays a class skill forevermore (since the "once in-class, always in-class" rank cap still applies as usual, but the extra cost of cross-class skills is negated). By default, though, he's right.

[Moriato]

Able Learner makes all skills cost 1 point per rank, regardless of class, but it doesn't affect the cap. I don't know of any feat that affects the cap, with the obvious exception of feats that turn skills into class skills.

Ahh, yeah, that's what I was thinking of. That makes sense, then.

[Greenish]

Or, since you're the DM, you could just screw the rules and give it whatever stats you want.What would be the point? :smallconfused:

Why do you even bring that up?

[Divide by Zero]

What would be the point? :smallconfused:

Why do you even bring that up?

My point was that you shouldn't have to randomly add a class level just to justify giving it the stats you want.

[Greenish]

My point was that you shouldn't have to randomly add a class level just to justify giving it the stats you want.Who says you have to?

[Divide by Zero]

Who says you have to?

Er...the post I originally quoted?

[Dusk Eclipse]

Who says you have to?

I think by RAW you need to use non-elite array for run of the mill NPC's and Elite Array for NPC with class levels.

Not sure really

[Incanur]

The arrays are just an approximation for convenience based on the classic 3d6 roll. It's entirely appropriate for DMs to roll stats or simply give the NPCs whatever numbers within the possible range they desire. However, high stats might require a CR boost depending on the circumstances.

[nedz]

I should re-emphesise what I said earlier
Skills are Confusing

There are a number of feats which can change this.

Able Learner (Human or Doppleganger only) almost as already mentioned.

Education (Eberon) All knowledge skills are considered in class, and you get +1 to two of your choice.

City Slicker (RoD) Disguise, Forgery, Gather Information, and Knowledge (local) are always class skills.

Draconic Heritage (CArc) varies dependant upon dragon type

Ecclesiarch (Eberron again) [Know (religion): 6 ranks]
Add Gather Information and Know (local) to your In-Class Skill List.
If you have the Leadership Feat, receive a +2 bonus on your Leadership score.

Plus lots more from other sources I'm sure

Ed: but with Expert you get to choose a handful anyway, which can make Expert an interesting dip for all kinds of builds - as you've spotted.

[Greenish]

Able Learner (Human or Doppleganger only) almost as already mentioned.Humans (and there are multiple subraces that qualify), half-humans (as per RoD), doppelgangers, Changelings…

Martial Study (ToB) will give you the key skill of the school your chosen maneuver belongs to as a class skill. Certain races have some skills as "always a class skill".