Non Casting Cleric?

[Thespianus]

In our current campaign, I was going over alternatives for our Barbarian/Fighter and , at level 10, there's very little point going into a caster class. However, I came up with an idea for a non-casting Cleric, swapping the domains for Devotion Feats and using the Turn Attempts to fuel the Devotion feats.

I've presented our DM with the idea of this nerfed Cleric, and he'll check it out, but I'm wondering what would be ok "compensation" for the lack of casting. I know Full Casting is a big thing to give away, but we're already at level 10 and entering a full caster class at level 10 is pretty lame anyway. ;)

My take on this is that the Barbarian will activate the Devotion Feats while Raging, and it will be played out as a Divine Rage type of thing, the Barbarian feeling the Deity's blessing while Raging.

Any ideas? Please don't say "Use ToB instead", it doesn't give the religious vibe I'm looking for, ;)

[HalfDragonCube]

So you give up your domains and turn attempts? That still leaves casting in there.

[Thespianus]

So you give up your domains and turn attempts? That still leaves casting in there.

I know we could keep the casting, but I'd prefer not to. Everyone else in the campaign is a caster of some sort, and it's getting silly. ;)

But yeah, I know I'm looking for a solution that nerfs the Cleric, and you will all think I'm crazy. ;)

[Godskook]

How about entering Crusader? Maneuvers are like low-grade spells, except they're built for melee and scale *MUCH* better with level.

Nvrmind, just saw the no ToB sticker in the window.

Anyway, there really isn't a point to gutting casting out of cleric, since that's what the class is built around. If you want religious flavor, I think there's other non-ToB options out there, but to be honest, I don't know of many that work with a pre-existing 10th level character.

Spoilered so that you can ignore it if you want.

When you say "doesn't give the vibe I'm looking for", do you mean that Crusaders don't have one, or that its the wrong kind of vibe?

[Thespianus]

Anyway, there really isn't a point to gutting casting out of cleric, since that's what the class is built around. If you want religious flavor, I think there's other non-ToB options out there, but to be honest, I don't know of many that work with a pre-existing 10th level character.
No, I know. This is the best I've come up with so far, without running into mile high cheese levels.


When you say "doesn't give the vibe I'm looking for", do you mean that Crusaders don't have one, or that its the wrong kind of vibe?
The Crusaders have a very sweet vibe for soaking damage, doing heroic stuff on the frontlines, etc, it's just not the Divinely Inspired Berserking - By Crom! -feeling I'm looking for.

[HalfDragonCube]

No, I know. This is the best I've come up with so far, without running into mile high cheese levels.

The Crusaders have a very sweet vibe for soaking damage, doing heroic stuff on the frontlines, etc, it's just not the Divinely Inspired Berserking - By Crom! -feeling I'm looking for.

Warblade, then. Iron heart surge the sun away.

[Godskook]

The Crusaders have a very sweet vibe for soaking damage, doing heroic stuff on the frontlines, etc, it's just not the Divinely Inspired Berserking - By Crom! -feeling I'm looking for.

Ok, you're continuing this each time you respond to a spoiler, so fair warning there.

You do realize there's Devoted spirit maneuvers like:

Immortal Fortitude - Every time the PC is reduced to negatives, he makes a fort save to refuse to die. "I die when Crom wants me to die"

Defensive Rebuke - Attacking anyone else provokes an AoO. "I am your opponent now"

And then, there's the infamous Ironheart Surge from the Ironheart discipline which could pretty much have as its entire flavor text "BY CROM!" (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=10110344&postcount=2)

[Thespianus]

I'm aware of the ToB classes, I thought the end note of the OP would make that clear. ;)

But thanks for attempting the unrewarding task of helping me, I know I probably come off as unnecessarily picky. :)

[ILM]

In our current campaign, I was going over alternatives for our Barbarian/Fighter and , at level 10, there's very little point going into a caster class. However, I came up with an idea for a non-casting Cleric, swapping the domains for Devotion Feats and using the Turn Attempts to fuel the Devotion feats.

I've presented our DM with the idea of this nerfed Cleric, and he'll check it out, but I'm wondering what would be ok "compensation" for the lack of casting. I know Full Casting is a big thing to give away, but we're already at level 10 and entering a full caster class at level 10 is pretty lame anyway. ;)

My take on this is that the Barbarian will activate the Devotion Feats while Raging, and it will be played out as a Divine Rage type of thing, the Barbarian feeling the Deity's blessing while Raging.

Any ideas? Please don't say "Use ToB instead", it doesn't give the religious vibe I'm looking for, ;)
Alternatively, I believe there's a Paladin ACF that trades spellcasting for martial stuff. Go Paladin of Freedom or Slaughter depending on alignment and use that.

If you reaaly must stick with Cleric, I'd start with giving him full BAB and perhaps an extra Fighter feat maybe every 3 levels?

[Violet Octopus]

Refluffed warlock/DFA invocations, particularly the continuous-effect ones? If there are any ToB stances (or even boosts) that you feel are appropriate the mechanic could be converted into an invocation.

Maybe have them acquired at a slower rate, but allow them to be swapped out daily when you pray to your deity. Then again invocation acquisition is already pretty slow for warlocks.

Instead of Eldritch Blast, it could be bonus holy damage dice that apply against evil outsiders or undead.

Or just give it meldshaping.

[HunterOfJello]

In our current campaign, I was going over alternatives for our Barbarian/Fighter and , at level 10, there's very little point going into a caster class.

Have you checked out the Ur-Priest? It's pretty much the opposite of what you've asked for, but is an alternative that gives a character the equivalent spellcasting of a 20th level Cleric in only 10 PrC levels.

[Thespianus]

Have you checked out the Ur-Priest? It's pretty much the opposite of what you've asked for, but is an alternative that gives a character the equivalent spellcasting of a 20th level Cleric in only 10 PrC levels.
Yeah, it's the opposite in almost every way. ;) It's Evil (we're Good), and it requires 8 ranks in Knowledge(religion) and Spellcraft, unlikely skills for the Barbarian we're talking about. ;)

[Aricandor]

Some paladin variant, maybe? That's sort of like a martially bent cleric without the spellcasting for the first few levels. It does take a few levels to get the turning though, and I realise the character may not have very good Charisma, but neither does O-Chul after all. :smallbiggrin:

Maybe there are feats to boost the smite and lay on hands a bit to help that along.

[AslanCross]

There's a Paladin ACF in Complete Champion that allows you to drop spellcasting for Bonus feats, many of which are Turning-related. That looks like it's exactly what you're looking for. (You can simply take Paladin of Freedom to avoid the LG requirement)

[Greenish]

How about Pious Templar? It has a bit of casting, but somewhat easy entrance, Mettle and the very flavour you seem to be going for. There aren't many non-casting religious PrCs (I can only think of one or two), and fewer yet such base classes.

[Thespianus]

There's a Paladin ACF in Complete Champion that allows you to drop spellcasting for Bonus feats, many of which are Turning-related. That looks like it's exactly what you're looking for. (You can simply take Paladin of Freedom to avoid the LG requirement)
I've looked at the Paladin and the various ACFs, and - well - the Paladin gets some class features that doesn't mesh all that well with a crazy raging orc-chopping Barbarian "By Crom" (or Tempus, in this case) ;)

They get Smite Evil, which is ok at character level 1, but at level 10 it's pretty weak sauce, especially with a low Charisma score. Detect Evil might be ok, but our dear Barbarian doesn't care all that much about Evil per se (her deity is Tempus, CN).

I'd like the feeling of "Tempus is watching over me while I Rage and destroy all enemies. I am the vessel for his wrath", rather than "Tempus gives me the ability to heal and help those in need. I am the vessel for his mercy.", if that helps you folks understand what I'm aiming for. :)

Turn Undead doesn't show up until level 4, and that's pretty much when the Paladin reaches the stuff I get with Cleric 1.

I've also looked at the Rage Cleric (Crystal Keep lists, DR333), but that ACF trades the Domains for Rage ability, and I'd rather drop the spell casting and keep the Domain-related Devotion Feats.



How about Pious Templar? It has a bit of casting, but somewhat easy entrance, Mettle and the very flavour you seem to be going for. There aren't many non-casting religious PrCs (I can only think of one or two), and fewer yet such base classes.

Yeah, I've been going over the Completes with a fine toothed comb. Pious Templar is one of the few other PrCs that seemed ok, but the build needs two new Feats to qualify, feats that - well - suck. ;)

The Mettle ability is right on the money, I agree, but the prereqs are too steep. We just gained our 10th level, and the first level the build could get into Pious Templar would be level 13, after getting "True Believer" as the feat for level 12.

[Greenish]

Yeah, I've been going over the Completes with a fine toothed comb. Pious Templar is one of the few other PrCs that seemed ok, but the build needs two new Feats to qualify, feats that - well - suck. ;)

The Mettle ability is right on the money, I agree, but the prereqs are too steep. We just gained our 10th level, and the first level the build could get into Pious Templar would be level 13, after getting "True Believer" as the feat for level 12.Yeah, that's a bit meh. Though True Believer allows you to use relics to their full power, and some of those (MIC ones, mostly) are excellent for their cost.

Can you use setting-specific stuff? FR for example has a million and one PrCs for different things (even if there's some focus on casters), and Eberron might have something, though nothing comes to my mind and I know the setting pretty well.

[Edit]: Tempus, you say? So FR stuff ought to be kosher. Going to look into it.

[the clumsy bard]

How about the hellreaver from the fiendish codex 2?

Its a prestige class that give you abilities that are holy like and it could be cleric like depending on how you fluff it.

[Toliudar]

You could refluff the binder so that he's accepting in some shard of the divinity he worships.

[KoboldCleric]

Were I in your position I would probably ask My DM to use a modified Champion of Gwynharwyf. Just drop the spellcasting in favor of turn undead & a few of devotion fets spread over the levels and alter the prereqs so that you qualify; seems pretty fair to me, especially if you're in an all caster party.

If you're looking for a by the book answer though I'd say just take a level of [Cloistered] Cleric for the turn undead + [3] 2 domain feats and ignore the spellcasting; There's no rule that says you have to use the class features you have.

[Thespianus]

How about the hellreaver from the fiendish codex 2?

Its a prestige class that give you abilities that are holy like and it could be cleric like depending on how you fluff it.
Oh, not bad. The only downside is that you get the Hellreaver bonuses against Evil opponents only. But yeah, this is the best I've seen so far. Thanks! :)


You could refluff the binder so that he's accepting in some shard of the divinity he worships.
Tome of magic would introduce a completely new system, it might complicate things further. Also, the Binder needs plenty of Charisma, no? Let's say Charisma isn't a stat that the barbarian in question has invested a lot of points in. ;)

[Urpriest]

I'm confused.

You want the Cleric's access to Devotion feats and turn attempts, and you don't want its spellcasting. But the Devotion feats and turn attempts come at first level. And you're mostly a Barbarian anyway. So why not just take one level of Cleric and call it a day? Sure you'll get first level spells, but if your campaign is filled with casters then first level spells at tenth level will not see much play. And if I'm reading your post right, you were never intending to take more than a single level of Cleric anyway.

[Thespianus]

Were I in your position I would probably ask My DM to use a modified Champion of Gwynharwyf. Just drop the spellcasting in favor of turn undead & a few of devotion fets spread over the levels and alter the prereqs so that you qualify; seems pretty fair to me, especially if you're in an all caster party.

If you're looking for a by the book answer though I'd say just take a level of [Cloistered] Cleric for the turn undead + [3] 2 domain feats and ignore the spellcasting; There's no rule that says you have to use the class features you have.

Cloistered Cleric is completely out of the question, the Barbarian isn't exactly a bookworm. ;) But, yeah, the suggestion I put forth to the DM was a Cleric of Tempus swapping the Domains for the Strength Devotion and Protection Devotion feats, and just ignore the spellcasting.

Being able to swap the spellcasting for full BAB seems so easy I can't really imagine him saying no to that. I'm thinking I should ask for a few more skill points as well as compensation for the lost casting, but I don't wanna seem greedy. He has a "Here be cheese"-attitude towards Complete Champion already. ;)

Champion of Gwynharwyf requires Exalted feats, right?

[Thespianus]

I'm confused.

You want the Cleric's access to Devotion feats and turn attempts, and you don't want its spellcasting. But the Devotion feats and turn attempts come at first level. And you're mostly a Barbarian anyway. So why not just take one level of Cleric and call it a day? Sure you'll get first level spells, but if your campaign is filled with casters then first level spells at tenth level will not see much play. And if I'm reading your post right, you were never intending to take more than a single level of Cleric anyway.

The build can contain more levels of Cleric, that's not something I've decided on, but you're right in saying that the build would be very front heavy, Cleric wise, if the casting is removed. Absolutely.

The question I tried to formulate in the OP was if anyone hade any ideas on how to compensate for the "lost" spellcasting of the Cleric.

Getting Full BAB seems like a very trivial trade. I'm thinking along the lines of getting Bonus Devotion feats at 4th and 8th level, or something like that. I'm not really sure what kind of compensation I am looking for, but I'd like to bounce around ideas. Maybe I've been very unclear of what I want, and if that's the case, I apologize.

[Veyr]

And then, there's the infamous Ironheart Surge from the Ironheart discipline which could pretty much have as its entire flavor text "BY CROM!"
Let's be honest, it could have that as its rules text too.

[Greenish]

Also, the Binder needs plenty of Charisma, no?No. Binders don't need any stat, though obviously con helps to keep you alive.

Charisma is used for binding checks (but you'll get the benefits even if you fail) and DCs (so with poor charisma you'd want to avoid things that grant a save).

[Thespianus]

No. Binders don't need any stat, though obviously con helps to keep you alive.

Charisma is used for binding checks (but you'll get the benefits even if you fail) and DCs (so with poor charisma you'd want to avoid things that grant a save).
Ok, thanks. We're not using Tome of Magic, so I'm unused to the mechanics. Still, from what I've gathered now, it seems like a class unsuited to enter at level 10, since the mechanics seem fairly level dependent. But maybe I'm misreading things again. ;)

[sreservoir]

well, grabbing improved binding gives you +2 when binding vestiges. and there's quite a bit of nifty EBL-independent stuff. and binder 10 will still get you 1/5r summons. and knowledge of everything, even if you don't know it. and at-will divination.

[Thespianus]

I need to find me a Binder handbook. ;)

Probably won't be using it in this build, though. But thanks :)

[Godskook]

I'm aware of the ToB classes, I thought the end note of the OP would make that clear. ;)

But thanks for attempting the unrewarding task of helping me, I know I probably come off as unnecessarily picky. :)

Nah, there's a lot of people who don't like ToB for what they're currently doing.

[Thespianus]

Nah, there's a lot of people who don't like ToB for what they're currently doing.

If I were to build a melee character from scratch today, it would be a ToB-class. But to bring those classes into play at this time seems wrong.

[Veyr]

Erm... why? They multiclass much better than casting classes; one of the great design features of the book is that it can fit into an existing game very neatly, as compared to other new subsystems.

[Thespianus]

Erm... why? They multiclass much better than casting classes; one of the great design features of the book is that it can fit into an existing game very neatly, as compared to other new subsystems.

Because all of a sudden, the character can breathe fire, teleport, etc. ;)

I'd prefer a power boost based around already existing abilities for the character, such as "While Raging, the Barbarian becomes a vessel for Divine Wrath". ;)

I know I could cherry pick Manouvers, Strikes, Stances and Boosts to make it a little more seamless, but it's a big new mechanic to bring to the table, for a character we've all come to appreciate for the fun charging, jumping raging whirlwind of death that she is. ;)

[Veyr]

Any martial adept could easily be a charging, jumping, raging whirlwind of death. It just depends on maneuver selection. You don't need to take maneuvers related to teleporting or fire (none of them involve breathing fire, either). A Crusader gets better to-hit and more damage as she takes damage, can take more damage than you'd think she could (because she can delay it), and has a lot of maneuvers that are excellent for charging. Rage you already have as a mechanic, though you could easily just "not use" certain maneuvers unless you were raging if you wanted those to seem a part of the rage. Iron Heart's got most of the whirlwind-like attacks, which is Warblade only, but a Martial Study feat or two could help there.

Plus, you can always continue using the attack patterns you've been using, and take Boosts and Counters to take advantage of your Swift Actions.

[Doc Roc]

I find it odd that no one has at least mentioned the divine crusader that I noticed. It's 1-9, pick domain, cast from it, but list expansion is easy and it opens up knight of the raven, which is my favorite Gish of all time thanks to annoying spectral ravens. Alternatively, you can just try to pick up a powerstone of psychic reformation an get a better feat set like charger/boomerang daze/imperious command combo meal.

[Greenish]

I find it odd that no one has at least mentioned the divine crusader that I noticed. It's 1-9, pick domain, cast from it, but list expansion is easy and it opens up knight of the raven, which is my favorite Gish of all time thanks to annoying spectral ravens.Celestial ravens. Neat but a bit fragile.

[SPoD]

Sometimes, I think ToB users won't be happy unless everyone else plays the classes they love. The OP said he didn't want to use ToB, so let's try to respect that, OK?

To answer the question, I would just homebrew something like the following:

Devoted Warrior

Prerequisites:
Base Attack Bonus: +7
Feats: Any one devotion feat.
Special: Must worship a deity.

{table=head]Level|Base Attack Bonus|Fort|Ref|Will|Class Abilities
1|+1|+2|+0|+2|Devotion Feat, Turn Undead
2|+2|+3|+0|+3|Mettle
3|+3|+3|+1|+3|Devotion Feat
4|+4|+4|+1|+4|Equal Devotion
5|+5|+4|+1|+4|Double Devotion
6|+6/+1|+5|+2|+5|Devotion Feat
7|+7/+2|+5|+2|+5|Extended Devotion
8|+8/+3|+6|+2|+6|Improved Mettle
9|+9/+4|+6|+3|+6|Devotion Feat
10|+10/+5|+7|+3|+7|Eternal Devotion[/table]

Hit Dice: d10
Skills Points: 4 + Int modifier
Class Skills: All class skills on either the Barbarian or Paladin skill lists.

Devotion Feats: At 1st level, you gain a bonus devotion feat, chosen from the list of domains available to your deity, plus the Strength and War domains. You gain an additional bonus domain feat at 3rd level, 6th, and 9th levels.

Turn Undead: You gain the ability to turn undead. Your turning level is equal to your class level in Devoted Warrior. Your levels in this class stack with those of any other class that grants turn undead for purposes of your turning level.

Mettle: As the Pious Templar class ability.

Equal Devotion: You gain the ability to use all of your devotion feats equally. Starting at 4th level, you gain one additional use of any of your devotion feats by expending one daily use of turn undead (rather than each feat having its own cost)

Double Devotion: Starting at 5th level, when you use a swift or immediate action to activate a devotion feat, you may simultaneously activate two devotion feats that can be activated with such an action.

Extended Devotion: Starting at 7th level, each of your devotion feats that lasts for 1 minute when activated instead lasts for a number of minutes equal to your Wisdom bonus.

Improved Mettle: As Mettle, but when even when you fail a Fortitude or Will save, you now only take half or partial effect.

Eternal Devotion: Choose one of your devotion feats. You may now use that feat at will, without expending any of your daily uses or turn undead attempts. You must still spend an action to activate it.

You can even take 1 level of cleric first, nab the free devotion feats, and then take this starting the level after.

[Veyr]

Sometimes, I think ToB users won't be happy unless everyone else plays the classes they love. The OP said he didn't want to use ToB, so let's try to respect that, OK?
I am trying to clarify some apparent misconceptions that the OP has about Tome of Battle. If he doesn't want me to do so, he merely has to ask. I did not bring the topic up, I only corrected what he had said. We're having a discussion. These things happen, ya know, on discussion forums.

[Greenish]

To answer the question, I would just homebrew something like the following:If he feels his DM would think him being greedy for wanting both full BAB and more skillpoints in exchange for giving up cleric's casting, I'm not sure that'd go over too well. :smallamused:

[Thespianus]

I find it odd that no one has at least mentioned the divine crusader that I noticed. It's 1-9, pick domain, cast from it, but list expansion is easy and it opens up knight of the raven, which is my favorite Gish of all time thanks to annoying spectral ravens.

It grants a domain, which can be turned into a Devotion Feat, but it doesn't grant Turn Undead (which is the food that Devotion Feats eat). So, in effect it gives less than a straight up Cleric. I've looked it over, but found it lacking. ;)

Thanks, though. I'm sure it is a great gish enabler for Knight of the Raven if you keep the spell casting, but I don't want the spell casting, I want the Devotion Feats. ;)


Alternatively, you can just try to pick up a powerstone of psychic reformation an get a better feat set like charger/boomerang daze/imperious command combo meal.

Uhm..saywhatnow? This is something I've completely missed. What's all this then? ;)

The Barbarian is already a Charger, with a Leap Attack/Shock Trooper setup. No Pounce, though.

[Greenish]

It grants a domain, which can be turned into a Devotion Feat, but it doesn't grant Turn Undead (which is the food that Devotion Feats eat). So, in effect it gives less than a straight up Cleric. I've looked it over, but found it lacking. ;)Knight of the Raven does grant turning, though, and I assume Divine Crusader is for qualifying for it.

[Thespianus]

Sometimes, I think ToB users won't be happy unless everyone else plays the classes they love. The OP said he didn't want to use ToB, so let's try to respect that, OK?
Thanks. :)


To answer the question, I would just homebrew something like the following:
*jaw off floor* Did you just put all that together? For me? :)

Thanks. It's a tad on the Lightning Warrior-side, but I really appreciate you putting something like this together for me. :smallsmile:

[Thespianus]

Knight of the Raven does grant turning, though, and I assume Divine Crusader is for qualifying for it.

Yeah, at level 3. So it's a bit far off *staring at the horizon for level 13* :smallwink:

[Veyr]

For what it's worth, SPoD probably has about the right idea.

[Thespianus]

I am trying to clarify some apparent misconceptions that the OP has about Tome of Battle. If he doesn't want me to do so, he merely has to ask. I did not bring the topic up, I only corrected what he had said. We're having a discussion. These things happen, ya know, on discussion forums.
It's cool, and I don't mind the discussion at all.

I know that there are paths to finding good manouvers that feel well strung together, but... well, starting at level 10, with an IL of 5, stringing together Manouvers for a Warblade (which I believe prefer some decent Intelligence, something that the dear Barbarian is using as the utter dump stat) to try to maintain a solid feel for the Barbarian origins of the character seems difficult.

A Crusader starts with a Hitpoint Pool of 5 at level 1, which for a level 10 character is just plain silly. I'm sure the Manouvers could be just as good for a Crusader, and the randomness of the Crusaders Available Manouvers could be seen to reflect the Chaotic nature of the Barbarian, but.. again, it takes some stringing together.

Maybe I'll make an attempt, just to shut everyone up :smallwink: , but that would have to wait for another day. :smallwink:

[Telok]

I have converted most of the Dungeon Crawl/Stone Soup gods into D&D gods for my personal setting. This one is for Trog, also found here (http://crawl.chaosforge.org/index.php?title=Trog)

Trog is an ancient God of anger and violence. Followers are expected to kill in Trog's name and sacrifice the dead, and in return gain power in battle and occasional rewards. Trog hates wizards, and loves to see their magical books burn. Followers are forbidden the use of spell magic.

Alignment: Dark, Chaos
Domains: Gluttony, Destruction, Hatred, Renewal, Strength, Wrath
Symbols: Axe, Claw, Troll, Vine

Appreciates
* Killing the living (extra piety for killing wizards)
* Sacrificing corpses
* Burning spell books
Deprecates
* Preparing or casting spells
* Abandon the religion
Given Abilities
* Burn spell books
* Go berserk at will
* Trog's Hand - Regeneration
* Brother in Wrath - Summon a powerful friend
* Gifts of weapons
* Extending the duration of berserk when a kill is done under its effects.
Punishments
* Sends trolls, minotaurs and ogres to kill you
* Rots, weakens, paralyses or slows you
* Fiery rage

Berserk
Hit Dice: d12
Requirements: Religion - Trog. Feat - Extra Rage or Extra Smiting. Base attack - 5+.
Skills: 2+ Int mod points. Climb, Jump, Intimidate, Ride, Swim.
Level BAB F/R/W Special Maneuvers
1 +1 +1/0/0 Berserk, Burn Books ---
2 +2 +2/0/0 Bonus Feat [Rawr!] +1 level of existing class
3 +3 +2/1/1 Trog's Hand +1 level of existing class
4 +4 +3/1/1 Bonus Feats [Whauuugh!] +1 level of existing class
5 +5 +3/2/2 Brother in Wrath ---

* Berserk (Ex): You gain the ability to rage as a Barbarian does. If you can already rage the bonuses increase by +1 and you gain one extra use of the ability per day.
* Burn Books (Su): By holding a hated tome (spell books, peace and light religious tracts, tax documents) and activating your Berserk ability you cause the vile words to be destroyed in holy fire. The book lasts one round for every 1000 gp of value and you may use it to make touch attacks for 2d6 sacred energy damage. You are considered proficient with this attack and the flames do not hurt you.
* Bonus Feat [Rawr!]: You gain one bonus feat from the following list even if you do not meet the prerequisites: Endurance, Toughness, Improved Toughness, Diehard, Faster Healing, Power Attack, Overwhelming Assault, Two Weapon Rend, Power Critical, Powerful Charge, Cleave, Flay, Reckless Offense, Closed Mind, Mage Slayer, Extra Rage, Reckless Rage.
* Trog's Hand (Su): While you are Berserk you gain Fast Healing equal to your Berserk level.
* Bonus Feats [Whauuugh!]: Gain the feat Extend Rage and another bonus feat off the previous list.
* Brother in Wrath: Once a week you may call on Trog to send you a buddy who needs a good fight. The buddy is a NPC Barbarian who is currently raging but not fighting. He appears next to you and will fight enemies to the best of his ability. If there are no foes to fight, of he is still raging when there are no foes left, the barbarian will fight you. The buddy vanishes when he is defeated or runs out of rage uses for the day. If you are raging but not fighting there is a chance that Trog will use you as someone's buddy.

[SPoD]

If he feels his DM would think him being greedy for wanting both full BAB and more skillpoints in exchange for giving up cleric's casting, I'm not sure that'd go over too well. :smallamused:

Well, then anything is going to be hard to balance, because the DM has a skewed sense of what is powerful and what isn't.

But there's no reason he couldn't take the class I made and drop the BAB and skill points down, if they're a problem.


*jaw off floor* Did you just put all that together? For me? :)

Thanks. It's a tad on the Lightning Warrior-side, but I really appreciate you putting something like this together for me. :smallsmile:

I'm not sure what Lighting Warrior is, so I don't know how to take that comment...

[Ravens_cry]

If your going to play a cleric without casting, why not play something with abilities that suit the role in the party you want better and simply be a priest of some sort in-world?
Clerics, aside from spell casting and related abilities, don't get many class features. Refluffing some other class would probably be easier, for both you and the DM, than changing the crunch of a class until it isn't that class anymore.
Rogue would be a good one in Core, I find their skill points make for a nicely mutable party roll. Thug Fighter from the SRD might be a nice choice if you want full BAB and some extra skill points.

[Greenish]

Well, then anything is going to be hard to balance, because the DM has a skewed sense of what is powerful and what isn't.Not denying that.

I'm not sure what Lighting Warrior is, so I don't know how to take that comment...He's trying to say it's too strong.

Lightning Warrior was a parody overpowered homebrew.

[Veyr]

I'm not sure what Lighting Warrior is, so I don't know how to take that comment...
Erm. Well. Personally, I'd be hideously offended, if I were you. It's also completely incorrect.

[Thespianus]

I'm not sure what Lighting Warrior is, so I don't know how to take that comment...
I'm sorry, it's a joke class on the board, that gets full BAB, full casting, etc, and the extra joke is that it's not OP because it doesn't get a Familiar.

Anyway, I *really* didn't mean to offend you, as Veyr suggested, it was a very impressive response from you. I just think it might be a little too powerful, bringing full Bab, Turn Undead, Mettle, three devotion feats, double devotion etc into the same class. It might not actually be very overpowered, but.. well, it struck me as such.


Erm. Well. Personally, I'd be hideously offended, if I were you. It's also completely incorrect.
"hideously offended"? Really?

Well, I do indeed apologize then.

[Thespianus]

If your going to play a cleric without casting, why not play something with abilities that suit the role in the party you want better and simply be a priest of some sort in-world?
Clerics, aside from spell casting and related abilities, don't get many class features. Refluffing some other class would probably be easier, for both you and the DM, than changing the crunch of a class until it isn't that class anymore.
Rogue would be a good one in Core, I find their skill points make for a nicely mutable party roll. Thug Fighter from the SRD might be a nice choice if you want full BAB and some extra skill points.

I don't see how "Dip Cleric, Pick Devotion Feats instead of the Domains and skip the casting" equals "changing the crunch of a class until it isn't that class anymore".

I mean, I can still keep the casting, just ignore to prepare spells. Then it's "Regular Cleric, played in an unorthodox way" and no crunch has been changed at all. :smallwink: This is what I initially mentioned. All I wanted was a few ideas on what kind of "compensation" that would be reasonable to ask of the DM for skipping the casting.

[Greenish]

I don't see how "Dip Cleric, Pick Devotion Feats instead of the Domains and skip the casting" equals "changing the crunch of a class until it isn't that class anymore".Well, if you turn something from full caster (one of top 5, too) to non-caster with no class features beyond first level, well, they're not the same class by any stretch of imagination. :smallamused:

[Thespianus]

Well, if you turn something from full caster (one of top 5, too) to non-caster with no class features beyond first level, well, they're not the same class by any stretch of imagination. :smallamused:

True, I suppose. The idea of taking "Barbarian lvl 8" just makes me sad. I wanted to find something to further fuel the furious flames of ..well..fury :smallwink: , and this kind of "Cleric" seemed like a fun way to go.

EDIT: Thanks everyone who supplied an opinion and some advise! (or is it "advice"? I really need to learn the difference)

[Veyr]

I just think it might be a little too powerful, bringing full Bab, Turn Undead, Mettle, three devotion feats, double devotion etc into the same class. It might not actually be very overpowered, but.. well, it struck me as such.
Massively less powerful than... off the top of my head, Archivist, Ardent, Artificer, Cleric, Druid, Erudite, Favored Soul, Psion, Shugenja, Sorcerer, Spirit Shaman, Wilder, Wizard, and Wu Jen. And while perhaps not "massively," still demonstrably less powerful than Bard, Beguiler, Binder, Crusader, Dread Necromancer, Incarnate, Psychic Warrior, Swordsage, Totemist, and Warblade.


"hideously offended"? Really?
Yes, really — Lightning Warrior was an intentional parody, far worse than anything anyone is likely to intend seriously. To compare something that someone put actual work into to the Lightning Warrior is extremely insulting, to my mind.

[sreservoir]

Massively less powerful than... off the top of my head, Archivist, Ardent, Artificer, Cleric, Druid, Erudite, Favored Soul, Psion, Shugenja, Sorcerer, Spirit Shaman, Wilder, Wizard, and Wu Jen. And while perhaps not "massively," still demonstrably less powerful than Bard, Beguiler, Binder, Crusader, Dread Necromancer, Incarnate, Psychic Warrior, Swordsage, Totemist, and Warblade.


Yes, really — Lightning Warrior was an intentional parody, far worse than anything anyone is likely to intend seriously. To compare something that someone put actual work into to the Lightning Warrior is extremely insulting, to my mind.

care for trickery devotion at will?

[Doc Roc]

True, I suppose. The idea of taking "Barbarian lvl 8" just makes me sad. I wanted to find something to further fuel the furious flames of ..well..fury :smallwink: , and this kind of "Cleric" seemed like a fun way to go.

EDIT: Thanks everyone who supplied an opinion and some advise! (or is it "advice"? I really need to learn the difference)

Intimidating Rage, Instantaneous Rage, Imperious Command.

Dr. Yellins Shoutsmoreson.

[Veyr]

care for trickery devotion at will?
What? It's a nifty effect, but I can't see the point in having up to 20 of the things at once (if you sat around doing nothing but spam it at 20th level).

[nedz]

You could consider Spontaneous Cleric from UA or here (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/spontaneousDivineCasters.htm)
You would then have very limited and simple casting.

[Thespianus]

Massively less powerful than... off the top of my head, Archivist, Ardent, Artificer, Cleric, Druid, Erudite, Favored Soul, Psion, Shugenja, Sorcerer, Spirit Shaman, Wilder, Wizard, and Wu Jen. And while perhaps not "massively," still demonstrably less powerful than Bard, Beguiler, Binder, Crusader, Dread Necromancer, Incarnate, Psychic Warrior, Swordsage, Totemist, and Warblade.
Ok. Maybe you are right.


Yes, really — Lightning Warrior was an intentional parody, far worse than anything anyone is likely to intend seriously. To compare something that someone put actual work into to the Lightning Warrior is extremely insulting, to my mind.

Again: Really? If you were to say "The Lightning Warrior is much more powerful than the Divine Warrior", you'd still be comparing the two. "extremely insulting"?

What I did write was "It's a tad on the Lightning Warrior-side, but I really appreciate you putting something like this together for me." It ought to be obvious that I'm not saying that they're equally unbalanced.

I am having trouble seeing how that can be considered "extremely insulting", and I've lived in Texas where accidentally touching a man's hat can get you beaten to the floor or even shot.


Intimidating Rage, Instantaneous Rage, Imperious Command.

Dr. Yellins Shoutsmoreson.

Imperious Command requires a fairly high Charisma, even if the Barbarian is using the Fearsome Gaze ACF, that keys Intimidate off Strength rather than Charisma. Charisma 15 is too high.

She's having a lot of fun with Intimidate check bonuses around +21 when she's Raging. :) We're also using the Never Outnumbered skill trick. It's tons of fun :)

Thanks everyone for your input.:smallsmile:

[Thespianus]

You could consider Spontaneous Cleric from UA or here (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/spontaneousDivineCasters.htm)
You would then have very limited and simple casting.

That's not bad at all. Thanks. Extremely limiting for a Cleric, and she wouldn't have to prepare her few spells in advance. Interesting.

[Rei_Jin]

If I was going to take levels in a non-spellcasting cleric, what would I want the trade-off to be?

Depends on how many levels I was committing to. If it was just one, well... full BAB in exchange for no spells, devotion feats in place of domains, and turn undead only to power those feats is fair.

If I was taking it for ten levels?

I'd ask for it to grant me Mettle at level 5, and the knights "No longer fail a save on a 1" ability at level 10. That to me, would be pretty balanced

[Thespianus]

If I was going to take levels in a non-spellcasting cleric, what would I want the trade-off to be?

Depends on how many levels I was committing to. If it was just one, well... full BAB in exchange for no spells, devotion feats in place of domains, and turn undead only to power those feats is fair.

If I was taking it for ten levels?

I'd ask for it to grant me Mettle at level 5, and the knights "No longer fail a save on a 1" ability at level 10. That to me, would be pretty balanced

Thanks. :smallsmile:

[dspeyer]

This is interesting enough that I'll also take a shot at homebrewing it (and thanks to SPoD for the template).

Devoted Warrior

Prerequisites:
Base Attack Bonus: +7
Special: Must worship a deity.

{table=head]Level|Base Attack Bonus|Fort|Ref|Will|Class Abilities
1|+1|+2|+0|+2|Devotion Feat, Turn Undead 3/enc, Renounce Casting
2|+2|+3|+0|+3|Divine Grace
3|+3|+3|+1|+3|Devotion Feat
4|+4|+4|+1|+4|Mettle
5|+5|+4|+1|+4|Turn Undead 6/enc
6|+6/+1|+5|+2|+5|Devotion or Divine Feat
7|+7/+2|+5|+2|+5|Domain Powers
8|+8/+3|+6|+2|+6|Fast Healing
9|+9/+4|+6|+3|+6|Devotion or Divine Feat
10|+10/+5|+7|+3|+7|Turn Undead 9/enc[/table]

Hit Dice: d10
Skills Points: 4 + Int modifier
Class Skills: All class skills on either the Barbarian or Paladin skill lists except diplomacy.

Devotion Feats: At 1st level, you gain a bonus devotion feat, chosen from the list of domains available to your deity. You gain an additional bonus domain feat at 3rd level, 6th, and 9th levels. but at 6th and 9th levels you may select a divine feat instead.

Turn Undead: You gain the ability to turn undead on a per-encounter basis. A new encounter starts after five minutes of rest. Your turning level is always 1.

Renounce Spellcasting: To focus divine energy in this manner, you must renounce casting. If you ever cast a spell you lose all features of this class until you receive Atonement. You may still receive spells and use magic devices freely.

Divine Grace: Add your wis or cha modifier to all saves (whichever is higher, assuming one is positive).

Mettle: As the Pious Templar class ability.

Domain Powers: You gain the special powers associated with the domains whose devotion feats you've taken.

Fast Healing: You gain 10hp/round fast healing.

[Thespianus]

Interesting variant, keeping the Turning "power" to a minimum, but receiving 3 attempts per encounter.

Thanks! :) This opens up some new ideas. Ponder this, I must. :smallwink:

[Greenish]

Thanks everyone who supplied an opinion and some advise! (or is it "advice"? I really need to learn the difference)"Advice" is the noun you're looking for. "Advise" is the verb.

We advised you and you're grateful for the advice.


Anyhow, I wouldn't try to slap iteratives on PrC tables, they won't be accurate anyhow.

[Thespianus]

"Advice" is the noun you're looking for. "Advise" is the verb.

We advised you and you're grateful for the advice.
Indeed I am. ;)

[Kantolin]

While I'm unsure who exactly Tempus is, or if this fits... uh, they have the 'Sanctified Champion' in the complete champion, and one of the options is Kord.

It requires knowledge(Religion), which could be a problem but may not be if the goal is to be a warrior of one's diety. It then gives you perks such as 'Completely ignore all damage from one critical hit', a reroll, a bonus to strength, and a blessing which gives some useful bonuses for a beatstick.

If erasing the word 'Kord' and writing 'Tempus' doesn't specifically fit, the class might be alterable to fit Tempus better.

[Draz74]

It's cool, and I don't mind the discussion at all.

I know that there are paths to finding good manouvers that feel well strung together, but... well, starting at level 10, with an IL of 5, stringing together Manouvers for a Warblade (which I believe prefer some decent Intelligence, something that the dear Barbarian is using as the utter dump stat) to try to maintain a solid feel for the Barbarian origins of the character seems difficult.

A Crusader starts with a Hitpoint Pool of 5 at level 1, which for a level 10 character is just plain silly. I'm sure the Manouvers could be just as good for a Crusader, and the randomness of the Crusaders Available Manouvers could be seen to reflect the Chaotic nature of the Barbarian, but.. again, it takes some stringing together.

Maybe I'll make an attempt, just to shut everyone up :smallwink: , but that would have to wait for another day. :smallwink:

First of all, while the Warblade does get benefits if he has a high Intelligence, they're totally optional, and even without using them at all the class doesn't suck. I've made a "Barbarian" character using Warblade before, with Intelligence as a dump stat. (He did take a one-level dip in Barbarian, mostly just for proficiency with bows and for Survival/Handle Animal as class skills.)

Second, if you want to try figuring out Maneuver choices that make you just feel like an angry raging barbarian, rather than "I can suddenly do weird new tricks!" or magic, we can help you with that pretty easily.

You're Barbarian 8 / Fighter 2 or something? And not particularly acrobatic (Jump)? OK, so if you took your 11th level in Warblade, you would have an initiator level of 6. Here are some maneuvers that I think might be appropriate (remember, you only get three of them):
Rabid Wolf Strike (Tiger Claw 2): You make a single attack so recklessly and ferociously that it adds +4 to your attack roll and a bunch of bonus damage, but gives you a -4 AC penalty for one turn. Also unlocks a bunch of other Tiger Claw options. (Rename it "Reckless Bloodthirsty Strike" if you want.)

Disarming Strike (Iron Heart 2): Hit an opponent so hard, they might drop their weapon. Not so unbelievable, right?

Steel Wind (Iron Heart 1): a one-time Cleave effect. Don't bother if you already have the Cleave feat, probably.

Iron Heart Surge (Iron Heart 3): This one is infamous, so you're probably already familiar with it. Requires taking something else from Iron Heart first. "By Crom Kord!"

Charging Minotaur (Stone Dragon 1): Charge and make a bull rush attempt without provoking an attack of opportunity. If you succeed, do a bit of damage just for fun, and possibly send your opponent flying further than just 5 feet.

Mountain Hammer (Stone Dragon 2): Hit your opponent really hard. Do +2d6 extra damage and ignore DR. Also fantastic for breaking stuff outside of combat (it ignores hardness).

Battle Leader's Charge (White Raven 2): Charge without provoking attacks of opportunity, and add +10 damage to your charge. The damage is a little weak at Level 10, but the flavor is totally barbarian-appropriate. Requires something else from White Raven first.

Lion's Roar (White Raven 3): If you drop a foe, spend a swift action to give yourself and all your allies +5 damage for one turn. Requires something else from White Raven first.

And stances (you only get one):
Punishing Stance (Iron Heart 1): Like another form of Rage, this gives you -2 AC but +1d6 damage whenever you keep it activated.

Hunter's Sense (Tiger Claw 1): You gain Scent. Quite useful for making a low-Wisdom character useful for scouting outside combat. Also can be flavored as your deity giving you inspiration about your foes. Requires something else from Tiger Claw first.

Absolute Steel (Iron Heart 3): Gain another +10 speed (like your Barbarian Fast Movement). Also gain a small boost to your AC when you keep moving while you fight.

Leading the Charge (White Raven 1): You and all your allies gain +6 damage on any charge attack.

To me, those all seem terribly appropriate for the flavor of a typical angry barbarian. And if you can't decide between them and keep taking Warblade levels to get more, there's a catch: by level 12, you'll have access to Level 4 maneuvers, which opens up even more tempting options! :smallamused:

[Fisticuffs]

I'd look at the Fist of Raziel for BoED. It's a Barbarian prestige class to make it all holy and paladiny.

[Thespianus]

While I'm unsure who exactly Tempus is, or if this fits... uh, they have the 'Sanctified Champion' in the complete champion, and one of the options is Kord..
It seems pretty cool. I believe I've overlooked it because it's a class that promotes casting, and the character doesn't have any casting, but I'll look into this as well. Kord matches Tempus pretty well (CG vs CN). One thing that strikes me, though, is that the abilities seem limited in number: Like "Once per day you can do X", "Once per day you can do Y", etc. But yeah, they're very thematic, and I like them a lot.

If the build goes into one level of Cleric, this PrC would be a decent followup thematically. Thanks! :)

[Thespianus]

You're Barbarian 8 / Fighter 2 or something? And not particularly acrobatic (Jump)? OK, so if you took your 11th level in Warblade, you would have an initiator level of 6. Here are some maneuvers that I think might be appropriate (remember, you only get three of them):

Very cool summary. The character is Barbarian 8/Fighter 1 about to take level 10, but yeah. I bet almost nothing changes in the list of manouvers due to this.

I agree that they all offer good, solid boosts and effects, a number of fun alternatives to "I hit again". I will go through the list and try to get a feel for what could be done with all this stuff and how to fluff it to make it an integral part of the character. I really appreciate the time and effort you've spent doing this. :smallsmile:

The advantage of the "Cleric with Devotion Feats that activate when the character goes into a Rage" variant is that it's dead simple, no need for "recharging manouvers", keeping track of the cards and all that. Maybe I'm just oldfashioned and childishly in love with the "HULK SMASH"-visual of the Barbarian, but I will definitely plunge into the ToB one more before discarding the idea. :)

[Thespianus]

I'd look at the Fist of Raziel for BoED. It's a Barbarian prestige class to make it all holy and paladiny.

"Lawful Good", "Able to cast Divine Favor" and "Servant of the Heavens(Exalted)" all work against the Fist of Raziel, I'm afraid. Also, it's a 9/10 caster class, and the Barbarian in question is no caster.

Very flevorful, though. Thanks! :smallsmile:

[Greenish]

While I'm unsure who exactly Tempus isTempus is the CN god of war and d12.

[Draz74]

You're welcome!


Very cool summary. The character is Barbarian 8/Fighter 1 about to take level 10, but yeah. I bet almost nothing changes in the list of manouvers due to this.
Yeah, that still means you'll have an Initiator Level of 5.5 (rounded down to 5), so your Maneuver options don't change. Except that Leading the Charge will give you and your allies +5 damage on charges instead of +6. Meh.


The advantage of the "Cleric with Devotion Feats that activate when the character goes into a Rage" variant is that it's dead simple, no need for "recharging manouvers", keeping track of the cards and all that. Maybe I'm just oldfashioned and childishly in love with the "HULK SMASH"-visual of the Barbarian, but I will definitely plunge into the ToB one more before discarding the idea. :)

Yeah, true. Cleric is, of course, also a solid choice for multiclassing. Sadly, with Complete Champion, Cleric is a powerful dip even if you don't use the spellcasting, which is its most powerful feature. :smalleek:

I just wanted to point out that Tome of Battle can serve your purposes well, too, and clear up some misconceptions (like the Warblade needing Intelligence).

If your DM doesn't rage about dipping, I'd take the Cleric level (even if you don't get to trade the spellcasting for anything more than full BAB), then go into Warblade after that until the end of the campaign.

[Doc Roc]

Just to clarify something, the reason I suggested divine crusader is because it's 1-9ths in 10 levels, and 3/4 BaB. So you could get your thematically-appropriate-mojo on.

[Fisticuffs]

I put the wrong class. :smalleek:

I meant the Champion of Gwynharwyf, found in the same book. Sorry about posting the very much different class.