Question about the Claws of the Wyrm soulmeld

[veven]

My draconic human is about to become a Dragon born and sadly that means I will loose my claw attacks. Since he fights with a Lucerne hammer, those claw attacks are necessary to threaten at five feet. I found the Claws of the Wyrm soulmeld in Dragon Magic but it doesn't seem to be clear on whether or not they are treated as natural attacks (although there might be some obvious ruling that since they are claws, they are natural attacks). The main reason it matters is because I want to know if I can make secondary attacks with them.

Thanks for the help!

[true_shinken]

Do you have a RP reason to become a dragonborn? because otherwise, you're just throwing away your draconic template and it's +1 LA.

[Greenish]

I don't think you'd threaten with your claws if you're holding a two-handed weapon with both of your hands.

[veven]

Yeah, I'm aware that I'm losing a lot by going dragonborn, it's definitely an RP thing.

Edit: Also, I already bought off the LA so that's not a huge deal. Besides, all i need is this soulmeld, permanencied darkvision, and an amulet of natural armor and then all i will loose is low light vision.

[Darrin]

Do you have a RP reason to become a dragonborn? because otherwise, you're just throwing away your draconic template and it's +1 LA.

Are you sure? I thought you kept abilities gained through templates. This is why Warforged Dragonblood are so nifty, they keep everything granted by their Living Construct template. A draconic human would only lose his bonus feat and extra skill points.

[Greenish]

Are you sure? I thought you kept abilities gained through templates. This is why Warforged Dragonblood are so nifty, they keep everything granted by their Living Construct template. A draconic human would only lose his bonus feat and extra skill points.Living Construct is a subtype, not template. You get to keep your original type and subtype with dragonborn, but I wouldn't know about templates, though I'd hazard a venture that you'd keep stat adjustments.

[kestrel404]

When you add the dragonborn template, you keep stat adjustments, movement types & speeds, and racial type & subtype. And that's it. The Draconic template gives +6 to attributes (+2 str, con, cha), and since he's already bought it off, he's not really losing all that much (getting a feat taken away is going to hurt - ask your GM if you can take a new flaw instead of losing a feat).

As for the original question - yes, your claw attacks are natural attacks. It may not be explicitly stated (I thought it was, actually, but I may be wrong), but because the attack is from a part of your body (you actually get a pair of claws) then the attack is automatically a natural attack.

[candycorn]

Claw is listed as a natural weapon (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#naturalWeapons).

[Veyr]

Uhm. Dragonborn eliminates racial features. A template is not a race. Seeing as you already paid for that template and everything, it seems to me you should be keeping it.

He would lose his bonus skill points per level and bonus feat, probably. Not sure if that's retroactive, though, that's interesting...

[kestrel404]

Uhm. Dragonborn eliminates racial features. A template is not a race. Seeing as you already paid for that template and everything, it seems to me you should be keeping it.

The common interpretation is that inhereted templates create a new race, with the combined racial features of the base race plus the template - so if you're a half-minotaur elan, you count both the racial features of half-minotaur and elan as racial features that are removed by the dragonborn template.

[veven]

The common interpretation is that inhereted templates create a new race, with the combined racial features of the base race plus the template - so if you're a half-minotaur elan, you count both the racial features of half-minotaur and elan as racial features that are removed by the dragonborn template.

This is the ruling our group is going with. Based on the text of dragonborn, it seems like this was the intended rout.

[Greenish]

The common interpretation is that inhereted templates create a new race, with the combined racial features of the base race plus the template - so if you're a half-minotaur elan, you count both the racial features of half-minotaur and elan as racial features that are removed by the dragonborn template.Of course, if you're a half-minotaur elan, you get to keep most of the cool stuff, that is, size, ability bonuses and aberration type.

That is assuming you missed the part where you can't apply half-minotaur on an aberration, but eh.

[Red Fel]

Let's read the soulmeld description and extrapolate, hm?


This soulmeld draws on the most basic of draconic attack forms, granting you claws that deal damage of 1d6 points if you are Medium, 1d4 if you are Small, or 1d8 if you are Large, plus your Strength modifier. You can attack with one claw as a standard action or with both claws as a full-round action (using your full base attack bonus). If you already have claw attacks, use either your normal claw damage or the damage given for this soulmeld, whichever is higher.
Okay. So it lets you attack with one claw as a standard action, or both as a full action, at your full BAB. This tracks with the language of claws as natural weapons - if they're your primary, you can attack with one as a standard action, or both as a full, at your full BAB. What it doesn't say - and what normal claws do - is that you can use your claws as a secondary attack at -5.

Next, let's compare it with other soulmelds. For example, the Bloodtalons soulmeld, when bound to the Totem Chakra, reads:

You can use your bloodtalons as natural weapons. You can make two claw attacks that each deal 1d4 points of damage plus your Strength modifier.

. . .

While the claws are shaped, you can still use your hands as normal (to hold items, cast spel ls, and so on), although you cannot hold an item in your hand and attack with the claws at the same time.

Or, the ever-popular Girallon Arms, when bound to the Totem:

You gain four claws that you can use as natural weapons, dealing 1d4 points of damage with each claw. You can make a single claw attack as a primary attack, using your full attack bonus and adding your Strength bonus on your damage roll. You can make up to three additional claw attacks as secondary attacks, following either a primary claw attack or an attack with a weapon. These secondary attacks have a –5 penalty on the attack rolls and apply half your Strength bonus on damage. If you have a shield in your off hand, you cannot make any secondary claw attacks.

Okay. So these Soulmelds explicitly call the effect out as a natural weapon, and also qualify what you can be doing with your hands at the time.

You now have arguments pro and anti. Pro: The language of Claws of the Wyrm tracks with normal claws, and ought to function the same way. Con: Other Soulmelds that function as claws explicitly state that they do so, whereas this one does not; that suggests that if it doesn't say it, it doesn't do it.

Pick your argument. These were written in a time in 3.5 when editing was uniquely poor; you can make a good case for either side.

[The Viscount]

The type of text presented for the entry is typical of PC option natural attacks (compare to the Razorclaw Shifter). They do not allow you to make iteratives with them, which puts them pretty firmly in the natural attack camp, in addition to the fact that claws are not used as non-natural weapons.
It's not using the exact terminology from MoI because it's almost certainly a different writer (which would also explain why the two melds in Dragon Magic are the only melds that grant a natural attack as the shaped effect).

[Zombulian]

Shoo shoo necromancers.

Go hang out in a cemetary or something.
Sickos.