Archer help, 3.5 core. [Archive] - Giant in the Playground Forums

opticalshadow

2011-05-08, 12:18 PM

ive done a good days searching, and ive come to find two things on archer only builds. people dont understand core only, even when they use it int heir titles, and they all focus around max level characters, i understand why, but since im not nearly that high, it doesnt help me figure out what to do inbetween.

now in short, it looks like my druid isnt going to survive, and if he does, im not sure i want to burden the party with the costs of revival. the party is currently level 5, so ill likyl be starting at 4, we have a wizard/paragon a cleric a fighter and a rouge, i was thinking of adding a ranged attacker to the mix.

so i want to build an archer, i only have access to core books, plus the favored soul, ninja, scout and swashbuckler and racial paragon classes. but only the classes from the books. now the DM does allow on case basis of other things, but i really dont want any build help on anything non core, because its unreliable that i can use it. i know the general feats i need, and such but i really dont know what class to use, the three i read up on the most is bard cleric and ranger, im hesitant on the cleric because we have one and losing hte druid, the ranger might be the most useful to fit the rp roles, but im not really tied down to one class.

its 32 point buy and average starting wealth, any tips or ideas? ive read the ranger and archer handbooks on the optimize forums, but again, they like to make build with splat material i cannot use. as a personal whim, id really like to not multiclass, or if so at the lest possible amount.

thanks in advanced. as a plus, if any of you want to help me with this in a more friendly manner, im on skype with the same name as the forum name, all lowercase.

thanks again.

Eldariel

2011-05-08, 12:29 PM

Best Archer you can make in Core is a straight Cleric, regardless. For another 4 levels you're merely "decent" but you'll get great around level 9. And already level 6, you'll be ok. Of course, you do have some MAD; you need enough Wisdom to cast your spells while still needing Dex and Str for actually hurting things (since in Core, you can't take Zen Archery).

Really, all there is to optimizing Core archery is:
- Get Rapid Shot
- Get some skillz (technically dipping Ranger on level 1 could help here, but that'd delay your spellz too much, particularly the key buffz; your base Wis and Dex should get you a decent start here)
- Pump your To Hit and Damage as much as possible; spells do it the best while Weapon Focus-chain and Barbarian Rage offer some unimpressive alternatives (max your Dex and Str obv)
- Get a pimpy bow; for this you definitely want to be a caster so you can enchant it yourself. Craft Magic Arms and Armor, make a +1 (minimum enhancement) magic bow with as many elemental and bonus damage abilities as possible, cast Greater Magic Weapon on it, have some specialist Bane Arrows (those are cheap to make; an arrow is 50th of the price of a weapon of the same type) and profit.

Honestly, on level 5 you want:
- PBS
- Rapid Shot
( - Craft Magic Arms and Armor)

On level 9, you'll want Quicken Spell for Divine Favor (+3 to hit and damage as a swift action? Yeah, that's why you wanna be a Cleric), and at some point probably Extend Spell for hour/level buffs for one day early, two days later. Weapon Focus and Precise Shot are fine feats to take lacking betters, and eventually you can take Improved Precise Shot though Seeking-property on your bow (or Seeking arrows) almost completely eliminate the need for that. Manyshot can be useful for point blank fights with surprise rounds but that's about it.

Race, either Wood Elf or Human. Wood Elf gets +Str and Dex (Con and Int penalty tho) and Longbow proficiency, while Human gets the bonus feat (casters can actually use those). Gnome or Halfling is plausible but the lack of speed combined with smaller weapon damage die and Str-penalty is painful for a Core Archer since you don't have many sources of damage.

Domains, War is decent if going Human (provided you get a deity with Longbow as favored weapon), Travel is good, Luck is good and Trickery is good (all those considering the spells available and the domain granted power). I'd go with some of those.

Take any opportunities to prebuff in fights but be aware that mostly, you'll be better off attacking than spending combat rounds buffing. Divine Favor becomes worthwhile on level 6. By now, you'll mostly use Bless, Prayer and company alongside defensive stuff (Magic Vestment, Resist Energy, Protection from Alignment, etc.).

Wood Elf with 16 Str, 18 Dex, 12 Con, 6 Int, 16 Wis (with level-ups), 8 Cha is probably about as minmaxed as it gets. Sucks that you don't really get any skills whatsoever (the points you get should probably go into Concentration) but you have decent base values in most of the important skills so you'll be alright for now. You can get decent in archery.

SilverLeaf167

2011-05-08, 12:31 PM

Archery in core isn't especially good... but neither is anything else than magic.

The biggest benefit Ranger gets over Scout is the bonus feats (Archery is really feat-heavy otherwise), but the Scout gets precision damage and more skills (though the Rogue probably has those covered). If you were willing to multiclass, I would recommend taking 3-4 levels of Scout and then straight Ranger, but only if you could get the Swift Hunter feat from Complete Scoundrel. Otherwise, straight Ranger all the way is the best you can do without multiclassing.

Biffoniacus_Furiou

2011-05-08, 12:40 PM

You said you can use Scout, which multiclassed with Ranger is probably going to be your best option given a few conditions:

1. Greater Manyshot (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/psionicFeats.htm#greaterManyshot) from the Expanded Psionics Handbook. That allows you to move and shoot and get skirmish damage to every arrow.

2. Swift Hunter (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20070105a&page=4) from Complete Adventurer, which makes your Scout and Ranger levels stack for your Skirmish and Favored Enemy class features.

If you can use both these feats, then go Scout/Ranger and check out the Swift Hunter Handbook (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19872750/The_Swift_Hunters_Handbook_--_2007), a set of spoilers-within-spoilers in the third post details what level breakdown to use, but I'd go Scout 3/ Ranger 17. Most of the advice in that guide won't be available to you, but it's still a good read.

chainer1216

2011-05-08, 12:43 PM

you said you can use scout? be a scout, use multishot.

core only? the expanded psionics handbook is core, take greater manyshot at level 6, be awesome.

Zaq

2011-05-08, 12:44 PM

To be honest, you're kind of on a fool's errand. Archery is painfully undersupported in 3.5, and a core-only archer is pretty much doomed to mediocrity after the first couple levels. There's just no way to keep your damage on par with melee folks, and that's if you're happy with the super-boring "I stand there and full attack again. I stand there and full attack again. I stand there and full attack again." routine. There's no way to do anything more interesting than that, let alone more powerful. You're going to be stuck with doing pretty much 1d8 + STR + whatever magical bonus you can get for your entire career, with maybe a small bonus tacked on for feats (the tiresome but necessary Point Blank Shot, the huge trap that is Weapon Specialization, and . . . OK, that's about it). That's just not going to cut it at high levels, and even at low levels you're probably going to fall asleep because you'll never do anything other than just stand there and plink away for mediocre damage.

If other material is allowed on a case-by-case basis, I think that the fewest number of outside sources books you need to make something interesting would be two and a half (a class from Complete Adventurer, a feat from Complete Scoundrel, and a feat from the XPH which is also in the SRD): the Scout (which you said is allowed), the feat Swift Hunter (lets Ranger and Scout levels stack for Skirmish and lets you Skirmish normally immune favored Enemies), and the feat Greater Manyshot (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/psionicFeats.htm#greaterManyshot), which lets you get a full attack while moving, thus triggering Skirmish. You can do it without Swift Hunter, but it helps you keep your BAB up enough to qualify for Greater Manyshot earlier and get your iteratives as fast as you can.

Scout's a decent choice anyway, but once iteratives enter the picture, you pretty much need Greater Manyshot to not fall off into irrelevance. I guess at level 5 you'd be OK as a straight Scout, but by 8 or so (let alone 10 and up), you'll start to wish you got more than one arrow per turn.

cfalcon

2011-05-08, 01:04 PM

As has been pointed out, Core only (with no houserules) limits your options. You can definitely be effective at low level, but you eventually will tend to run low on things that boost your damage, while some of your allies won't.

The fastest way to be the best at archery is just to go fighter. As a human fighter five, you could have:

1:Point Blank Shot
H:Precise Shot
F1:Rapid Shot
F2:Weapon Focus (C. Longbow)
3: <other feat>
F4:Weapon Spec (C. Longbow)

The problem is that you are pretty much out of good feats to take to be a good archer. You can grab shot on the run (which also requires dodge and mobility), but unless you come across explosive arrows or make poisoned ones, you will likely really want to take a full attack. Of course, your fighter could still take plenty of feats to make him good in melee too, so that when your opponents close you can bring out the sword.

Fighters also can grab improved initiative without issue.

Now, as a 5th level Ranger, you get other stuff. The first thing you have to remember is that a Ranger isn't an archer- he's a man of the woods, and one of his specialties is archery. He eventually casts some spells (and your DM will probably be ok with a couple of the spells from other sources), and he gets a loyal companion who isn't super in combat, but is not terrible either.

Your ranger has about 3-5 less hit points than the fighter at level 5. Importantly, he has Hide, Move Silent, Listen, and Spot as his class skills. With a spare set of leather armor in his bags, he can accompany the rogue on any stealth mission without penalty. He also has *other* class skills you can use, as well as Track- however, most DMs play track poorly, with it never tracking anything you wouldn't have found without a ranger in the party. If you trust your DM to play this skill as an actual class feature and not just handwave it as an explanation to get you to the place you would have gone anyway, and at the same time, then it can be very powerful, catching escapeees, and intercepting bad guys before they can get to their fort.

As a ranger with archery:

1: Point Blank Shot
H: Precise Shot
R2: Rapid Shot (bonus for using ranged as your way to go)
3: Weapon Focus (C. Longbow)
R3: Endurance (bonus ranger trick, sleep in medium armor- mithril full plate, when you can eventually afford it :P)

At 4th, you'll have your animal companion, and probably your first daily spell.

You'll also have two favored enemies. This can be a pretty big bonus, depending on your campaign, or it can be pretty moot. Rangers in my games normally have the bonus a decent bit at low level (they start out on a campaign to punch orcs), and then for fights that matter at high level (dragons).

Anyway, if you just want an archer, of course the fighter is the natural call for that- he's a born warrior. But the ranger has other mysterious tricks.

Good luck.

cfalcon

2011-05-08, 01:09 PM

Also please remember to, as you level, grab weapons of different types. If your DM will let you, grab a few of the +60 gp adamantite tipped arrows, and always run with some cold iron (double cost) and mithral or alchemical silver arrowheads as well. Unlike the melee guys who need to stand next to something to attack, you get your full attack each round, and you can have different ammunition choices. There are non-core sources for cool arrows too, or you can just make some up.

The thing with the archer is that they are consistent damage in most fights. Yes, many times you will be forced into melee, but even then you will often simply have the option of five foot stepping away and blasting your foe with arrows- to say nothing of the opponent going for actually ignoring the wizard.

Entangle is an amazing low level spell too. Versus a mixed group of light melee (primitive humanoids and their support beasts), entangle will buy your group several rounds of excellent ranged attacks and spells.

Greenish

2011-05-08, 01:10 PM

If other material is allowed on a case-by-case basis, I think that the fewest number of outside sources books you need to make something interesting would be two and a half (a class from Complete Adventurer, a feat from Complete Scoundrel, and a feat from the XPH which is also in the SRD): the Scout (which you said is allowed), the feat Swift Hunter (lets Ranger and Scout levels stack for Skirmish and lets you Skirmish normally immune favored Enemies), and the feat Greater Manyshot (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/psionicFeats.htm#greaterManyshot), which lets you get a full attack while moving, thus triggering Skirmish. You can do it without Swift Hunter, but it helps you keep your BAB up enough to qualify for Greater Manyshot earlier and get your iteratives as fast as you can.If the DM were to ignore Scout's errata, you could do without Greater Manyshot, and be a mounted archer.

[Edit]:

R3: Endurance (bonus ranger trick, sleep in medium armor- mithril full plate, when you can eventually afford it :P)Of course, if you use medium armour, you'll lose your combat style feats. Mithral chain shirt is easily affordable even at level 5, has high-ish max dex and no ACP (so forget about dragging leather armour around, it'd be silly anyway).

cfalcon

2011-05-08, 01:17 PM

Truth. Or mithral breastplate, which keeps the ACP but has a more friendly base AC and still counts as light.

Greenish

2011-05-08, 01:18 PM

Truth. Or mithral breastplate, which keeps the ACP but has a more friendly base AC and still counts as light.Yeah, depending on dexterity.

Thespianus

2011-05-08, 01:23 PM

If you can accept a one level dip in wizard with the Fighter Feat variant in unearthed Arcana, you can grab another Fighter Feat, and be able to use wands and scrolls to improve your archery at later levels.

Wizard 1/Fighter X-1 > Fighter X even in Core

And I believe the Feat Manyshot becomes useable with True Strike fueling the attack roll.

ericgrau

2011-05-08, 01:29 PM

Point blank shot, rapid shot, precise shot. At lower levels a fighter will be strongest. A ranger is so-so, but is really just a fighter with less feats and more skills. A cleric's spells will be behind until you can quicken divine power at level 15. Even then buffed fighter > arcane archer > self buffing cleric > unbuffed fighter. Ya arcane archer gets a lot of flack since simple buffs make it obsolete, but a cleric makes even less sense short of DMM persist cheese, which you don't have. It's better than an unbuffed fighter when you finally hit level 15, so what? You need a buffing round for divine favor (waiting til round 2 quicken puts you slightly behind), no dispels, etc. just to finally pull slightly ahead of a buffed fighter. There's always a better option in core whether buffs are available from team mates are available or not.

Scout is pretty bad unless you have a trick to move and full attack. Even then it's so-so due to medium BAB. It's main advantage besides that is that it basically has two major skill lists so you can be the party's all in one skill monkey without requiring multiple classes. Like the ranger it's a trade-off, depending on how much you want skills.

Since it's core only you don't have uberchargers and you can actually keep up pretty well on damage. Between point blank shot, bracers of archery, rapid shot and always full attacking you get a lot more hits than melee. Get boots of speed ASAP to take further advantage of your full attacks. And you buy arrows of a variety of types to always get around DR, plus a variety of bane arrows at higher levels. I played an archer a couple campaigns ago and turned into the party's damage cannon.

Thespianus

2011-05-08, 01:41 PM

Using a Cleric archer, you can benefit from a Longbow Spiritual Weapon when you gain 2nd level spells. It's not great, but if you're focusing on archery, it will help your damage output, and when you get Divine Power, you'll be delivering quite a few arrows in a round, even if you're lagging behind the Fighter in archery Feats.

ericgrau

2011-05-08, 01:43 PM

I looked into spiritual weapon on a cleric build for another campaign, did the math, and found it to be worse than bull's strength which is worse than simply attacking for an extra round except in really long fights. The attack bonus and damage is too low. You really need a wis focused cleric rather than a dex focused cleric simply to get it a little below par. In the end my spontaneous cleric took bull's strength as a backup for long fights/buffing rounds, while intending to usually cast a different 2nd level spell.

Thespianus

2011-05-08, 01:50 PM

I looked into spiritual weapon on a cleric build for another campaign and found it to be worse than bull's strength which is worse than simply attacking for an extra round. The attack bonus and damage is too low.
Even for an archer focused build? Really? I mean, archer damage output in core is *really* low and Bull's Strength doesn't help you anything at all with an archer build, unless you get a separate special composite long bow strength enhanced for your strength level when you're using Bull's Strength.

It's a force attack, ignoring DR and miss chance from Incorporeality. With full attacks, I've found it to be decent. Remember, we're comparing with a regular archer build. ;)

Edit: I was thinking of a build where the Zen Archer Feat was allowed. You're probably right that the split focus between Dex and Wis will damage the build in this case.

ericgrau

2011-05-08, 01:55 PM

I was looking into bull's strength for melee. You'd use cat's grace for range, although it's a little less helpful. Ya the MAD kills spiritual weapon. EDIT: @V Ya fights were a little dull with my last archer, as like the above most every special option besides dealing damage was worse. He got around it with staff/wand usage from the wizard dip, and a billion minor magic items to make for interesting non-combat encounters and sometimes some pre-fight tactics too. I <3 marvelous pigments btw. At your level check out the cheapest wondrous items and maybe potions or sleep arrows. Also a good level for black market drow poison if you can find it.

Dralnu

2011-05-08, 01:57 PM

Level 4-5, core only? Fighter with a single level dip in Barbarian for rage. Remember that more strength means more damage with the composite bow. That's really the best option for you in terms of archery. If you want more utility, scouts are skillmonkeys and clerics bring spells. But barbarian1/fighterX will be the best in ranged combat until the high levels. Grab any good archery feat you see in core, pretty self-explanatory.

Also, you CAN do more than just "I full attack," with archery. Just not in core. There's tactical feats and neat things like ranged trips in the splatbooks.

EDIT: You need two bows, one you carry for when you have rage up and then you swap to the other bow for the rest of the day when rage is down. Perfectly reasonable for most level 4-5's. If that's too much of a hassle, then straight fighter.

Thespianus

2011-05-08, 02:02 PM

Or, with the Whirling Frenzy ACF for your Barbarian, you get one more attack while Raging. Might be more important for an Archer than for a Melee character.

Is UA ACF variants considered Core? If not, ignore wildly.

tyckspoon

2011-05-08, 02:06 PM

Is UA ACF variants considered Core? If not, ignore wildly.

No. Open Game Content is not Core. Core is the PHB, DMG, and Monster Manual 1. The Open Content stuff has become a sort of expanded core based on its easy availability, but if a GM/poster specifies Core, they most likely mean the three basic books (and some GMs are suspicious of letting players use stuff in the Monster Manual too, like the racial variants and the supposedly-monster feats.)

Thespianus

2011-05-08, 02:09 PM

No. Open Game Content is not Core. Core is the PHB, DMG, and Monster Manual 1.
Ouch. Yeah, that's a tight squeeze on the available material. Thanks.

opticalshadow

2011-05-08, 02:20 PM

did not expect this many replies honestly this quickly. thank you.

ok, so firstly this campaign is likly to continue for a long time, so while im 4 now i will get higher. and as far as worrying that archery is a dead end in the dnd world, im well aware of it, but if you want to min max it fighters become just as useless, and compared to options rouges are not fairing much better.

the thing im still hesitent on the cleric is, it wont bring anythign new to the party, and while having two clerics sounds great, i think it offers the party to much power in that area, it may adversely effect the party because the dm will have to knowingly make encounters centered around the two clerics, even if im just archery, i still have the spell list and abilities, and that means i could bring all that broken power into the game, so while i know its probly the best because of late game buff, i dont want it to adversely effect the power level of the encounters, espcially if im gimping it.

ill have to email the dm, im unsure if hell go for the feats for the scout/ranger, but they dont seem op at all, and it is built for the class. it sounds the most intresting of the lot, favored enimies plus bonus dmg. and it sounds less stat intencive and item intensive then the cleric, also a bonus.

so that said, and im not by any means trying to min/max (though i guess with sup par builds min/maxing really doesnt hurt) what is the optimal set up, take 3 in scout, one in ranger and then keep doing ranger (provided i can get teh feats) and choose human (which im assumeing works since i get extra feat skills and no exp penalty for multi class)

edit: as a side note on animal companions, i had a riding dog with chain armor for the druid that died, and the dog wa prolly more useful to the party then i was, but it generally went down pretty quick, the rangers companion will be lesser, so should i go with a more utility based animal (if i do ranger) say a bird of some sort, for messaging or scouting?

Thespianus

2011-05-08, 02:39 PM

Dralnu

2011-05-08, 02:56 PM

Actually, the best at lower levels for you would probably be an archer's version of Saph's horizon tripper. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=80415) Horizon Walker gives you more good combat bonuses once you're finished up with the best of the base classes.

Copy his alternate level route:

Alternate route: If you're starting at level 3 or higher, you can go Ranger 1 / Fighter 1 / Barbarian 1 / Ranger 2, instead, then Horizon Walker as above. This costs you a couple of HP, but gives you more skill points - at higher levels, this is a worthwhile tradeoff.

Copy everything Saph says to do since it's all core and as optimized as it gets. Change the feats to:
1: Point Blank Shot (1), Precise Shot (Human), Track (Ranger1)
2: Far Shot (Fighter1)
3: Power Attack (3)
4: Rapid Shot (Ranger2)
5: Endurance (Ranger3)
6: Manyshot

You already finished with all the archery feats and even picked up the most important feat for melee, if you do have to pull out a sword. The rest is up to you.

Horizon Tripper is possibly the best non-magic build you can do with only core starting at level 1 and working your way up. You'd end up being similar, with archery instead of tripping.

opticalshadow

2011-05-08, 02:57 PM

If you worry about the double Cleric aspect, I can see a reason for not taking it.

However, if you talk to the DM and let him know you'll be focusing on archery, IMHO he should be ok with it.

I did some fast math here and a level 3 Cleric with a 16 Dex and 16 Wis would be able to go "Archer Nova" at level 3, using the War and Magic domains, gaining Weapon Focus(longbow) through the War Domain, PBS at level 1, Rapid Shot as Human lvl 1 Feat, and Precise Shot at lvl 3.

With Rapid Shot, you're looking at an attack bonus of +8, a Full Round attack of +6/+6, and with a Spiritual weapon backing you up, one more +5 attack.

I might be missing something, probably actual damage output, but it seems better than a Fighter at level 3, at least. ;)

With 3 Spiritual Weapon spells at level 3, you can pretty much do three encounters with this "Nova" turned on.

EDIT: Sorry if this Cleric post was completely redundant, given that you seem to have decided to go in another direction.

i havent turned the idea of the cleric off entirely, it deffinitly seems to be worth while in its power, but i know i was orginally going to go favoered soul with combat as my main goal and the group was a little uneasy with it as it was close to a Clr, its still an option, but if i can get a decent enough build outside of that with a diffrent set up, it may set better witht he group.

thats actually the primary reason im still concidering the ranger/scout, on paper loosk like if i can take the stacking feat, ill turn out to be doing decent dmg, in comparison to multiple shots. but im not sure on the math. im deffinitly turned on to the clerics overall better dmg out put, so its still prolly 50/50

how far behind would a scout/ranger lag from the cleric's stand point?

opticalshadow

2011-05-08, 03:00 PM

Actually, the best at lower levels for you would probably be an archer's version of Saph's horizon tripper. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=80415) Horizon Walker gives you more good combat bonuses once you're finished up with the best of the base classes.

Copy his alternate level route:

Copy everything Saph says to do since it's all core and as optimized as it gets. Change the feats to:
1: Point Blank Shot (1), Precise Shot (Human), Track (Ranger1)
2: Far Shot (Fighter1)
3: Power Attack (3)
4: Rapid Shot (Ranger2)
5: Endurance (Ranger3)
6: Manyshot

You already finished with all the archery feats and even picked up the most important feat for melee, if you do have to pull out a sword. The rest is up to you.

Horizon Tripper is possibly the best non-magic build you can do with only core starting at level 1 and working your way up. You'd end up being similar, with archery instead of tripping.

im not entirely sure why the barbarian is in here? what does it add specifically? and how does that continue progressing?

also im not sure if power attack is any useful, even if brought into melee range, wouldnt i do better 5 ft steping and fireing or just backing out and skrimish shotting? ill take AoO, but im going to get hit next round anyways? the feat slot in that build for an archer seems like it could go in a better place, i could be wrong.

Greenish

2011-05-08, 03:01 PM

How far behind would a scout/ranger lag from the cleric's stand point?If you could reliably full attack every round with skirmish… you still wouldn't have full casting. :smalltongue:

Seriously, cleric is tier 1, and in core-only, the gap between tiers 1-2 and everyone else is pretty huge. A swift hunter with Greater Manyshot or a mount should be pretty okay, with excellent skills and decent offense (as well as mobility), with minor spellcasting to go with it.

Eldariel

2011-05-08, 03:01 PM

i havent turned the idea of the cleric off entirely, it deffinitly seems to be worth while in its power, but i know i was orginally going to go favoered soul with combat as my main goal and the group was a little uneasy with it as it was close to a Clr, its still an option, but if i can get a decent enough build outside of that with a diffrent set up, it may set better witht he group.

thats actually the primary reason im still concidering the ranger/scout, on paper loosk like if i can take the stacking feat, ill turn out to be doing decent dmg, in comparison to multiple shots. but im not sure on the math. im deffinitly turned on to the clerics overall better dmg out put, so its still prolly 50/50

how far behind would a scout/ranger lag from the cleric's stand point?

Scout/Ranger does more damage than Cleric on low ranges practically until Shapechange comes into play (generally, bit shorter than that; depends on the domain spells) but has terrible long range (over 30') capability. Greater Manyshot works with Scout/Ranger but it becomes quite the shore to stack up To Hit bonuses in Core to keep up with the penalty for additional shots. In short, Scout/Ranger works fine if you can make it work but otherwise, it's a royal pain.

Cleric's turn-around point is really level 9; you're 3 BAB behind a full BAB class but you get to Quicken Divine Favor which gives you +3 to hit and +3 to damage. Compared to a Fighter with another Cleric buffing him with Greater Magic Weapon, and with the Fighter picking the Weapon Spec-line, you'll have -1 to hit (Greater Weapon Spec) and +1 damage (Divine Favor's +3 vs. +2 from Weapon Specialization.

opticalshadow

2011-05-08, 03:07 PM

If you could reliably full attack every round with skirmish… you still wouldn't have full casting. :smalltongue:

Seriously, cleric is tier 1, and in core-only, the gap between tiers 1-2 and everyone else is pretty huge. A swift hunter with Greater Manyshot or a mount should be pretty okay, with excellent skills and decent offense (as well as mobility), with minor spellcasting to go with it.

well thats kinda what im avoiding, adding a second character to the game with all that power, a wizard and two clerics? the rest of the party is uselss (well any one of the three dont really need the other two min max) while i know the full spellcasting is a huge loss, i dont want the DM to have to ramp up the encounters because he knows, even if i dont intend to, i could bail us out.

that said, scout adn ranger are around the same teirs as fighter and rouge, we have a cleric and wizard, adding another lower teir will help keep the party at an even stance, while adding a higher teir, will hinder the lower.

edit: @Eld, so really, a scout ranger will start coming into play more around 6, and a cleric at 9. how difficult is it (1-10) to keep the off set on penalties for scout.

as for shapechange, im trying to ignore that clerics can do it. because while i dont want to rule clerics out, the only chance i have at using one without feeling like im hurting party balence would be to gimp it with the dm, because if i do go around as a cleric with a bow instead of an archer, i feel the fighter and rouge will start to fall behind (because lets face it, clrs will out fight fighters, and wizards will out dmg and skill rouges even if their not trying)

Thespianus

2011-05-08, 03:21 PM

how far behind would a scout/ranger lag from the cleric's stand point?

My Swift Hunter-skills are shoddy at best, but since you won't have the ability to move and full attack (maybe if Greater Manyshot is allowed, depending on the definition of Core you guys use) I think you will be trailing behind. Crunching the numbers takes a while at higher levels, though.

You will also be easier to hit ( light armor compared to medium of heavy armor for a cleric) and you won't have the spells to boost your attacks.

At level 7 you gain Divine Power, which gives you more attacks, and I believe this is where a melee Cleric really starts to shine, not at level 9. This also boosts your Spiritual Weapon (if you still use it. For an Archer, I think it's pretty decent) giving you an extra +10/+5 attack routine (without boosted Wis), on top of the +11/+11/+6 (or whatever) you can get with your full round attack routine.

It also gives you some attack rolls to roll in the rounds where you boost yourself with a Wand of True Strike (remember your Magic domain) for that one single Manyshot attack where you really wanna hit someone with all of your might. ;)

Not many characters get to roll 5 attack rolls in one round at level 7. You should feel proud. ;)

If you Summon Monsters as well, you're a one man army. ;)

But, seriously, you don't have to act like a tier 1 caster just because you are a tier 1 caster. One of the positive things about being a tier 1 caster like this is that you can act like a Tier 3 Archer 98% of the time. ;)

Or, you can do a gentleman's agreement with the DM, agreeing to only prepare spells that boost your archery and your melee defense ( Divine Favor, Cat's Grace, Owl's Wisdom, Spiritual Weapon, (Greater)Magic Weapon, Magic Vestment, etc). Basically, you will be an archer with buffs. Share the buffs with the Rogue and the Fighter, and let them shine too.

Greenish

2011-05-08, 03:22 PM

If you don't want to play a cleric, don't. A swift hunter is good enough for most campaigns, once you figure your way around it's main issue. (I personally think that they were made to be mounted archers, hell, there's even an ACF for that.)

Dralnu

2011-05-08, 03:25 PM

With Rapid Shot, you're looking at an attack bonus of +8, a Full Round attack of +6/+6, and with a Spiritual weapon backing you up, one more +5 attack.

I might be missing something, probably actual damage output, but it seems better than a Fighter at level 3, at least. ;)

I didn't check how you got those numbers but they look about right.

For comparison, a fighter 1 / barbarian 1 / ranger 1 with a 18 DEX and 16 STR would look something like this:
Rage, +4 STR/CON, +2 Will, -2 AC

With Rapid Shot and a masterwork composite longbow (+5), that's an attack bonus of +8, a full round attack at +6/+6, dealing 1d8+5 damage each arrow. A cleric definitely won't be hitting that hard.

Also, keep in mind that you need to float a decent WIS score in there. This build doesn't. And I'm willing to bet that, considering Spiritual Weapon lasts rounds/level, you won't have it sitting around when a combat breaks out. You'd have to waste a round of combat just to cast it first.

im not entirely sure why the barbarian is in here? what does it add specifically? and how does that continue progressing?

also im not sure if power attack is any useful, even if brought into melee range, wouldnt i do better 5 ft steping and fireing or just backing out and skrimish shotting? ill take AoO, but im going to get hit next round anyways? the feat slot in that build for an archer seems like it could go in a better place, i could be wrong.

Barbarian dip gives you +4 CON/STR for one encounter per day while losing nothing. +4 STR = +2 damage on your arrows. It progresses by taking Horizon Walker at level 6 and going all the way with it. Horizon Walker gives you a large assortment of buffs and utility that wouldn't overlap with your other party members and make you stand out a bit. It's a solid core PrC.

Power Attack is the single most powerful melee feat. If you don't want to bother with it, you can sub it out for Diehard or Weapon Focus.

As others have mentioned, Cleric archery doesn't really come into its own until level 9 when you can quicken Divine Favor. Yes, going down that route you'll become more powerful, due to the global utility of your spellcasting. But I'd argue that Saph's Horizon Archery route would straight-up beat a cleric in damage in realistic (aka no time to cast spiritual weapon beforehand) fights at the low-mid levels and still keep up in the higher ones.

Check out the guide. If you got any questions about it, we're here.

ericgrau

2011-05-08, 04:14 PM

My Swift Hunter-skills are shoddy at best, but since you won't have the ability to move and full attack (maybe if Greater Manyshot is allowed, depending on the definition of Core you guys use) I think you will be trailing behind. Crunching the numbers takes a while at higher levels, though.

Ya they need the move+full attack just to keep up. They don't even match sneak attack and yet have medium BAB.

At level 7 you gain Divine Power, which gives you more attacks, and I believe this is where a melee Cleric really starts to shine, not at level 9. This also boosts your Spiritual Weapon (if you still use it. For an Archer, I think it's pretty decent) giving you an extra +10/+5 attack routine (without boosted Wis), on top of the +11/+11/+6 (or whatever) you can get with your full round attack routine.

By round 3 at your first real attack most of the fight is over though. These kind of spells are a trap without quicken or DMM persist, hence why I said level 15. The OP said he wanted something that'd still be useful at low levels and that's a long time to wait. Quicken divine favor is nice but it roughly balances out 3 bonus feats and still leaves you at medium BAB (and fixing this isn't usually worth the round).

Sometimes simpler really is better, especially in core. If you don't want fighter then you could get away with a ranger or horizon walker to get more special stuff at the expense of a little damage. A rogue might likewise be so-so if you can get the wizard to grease/glitterdust foes or etc. But skirmish can't keep up without full attacks, and even then maybe not. Perfect wizard-rogue coordination might get a little more damage. Or in extremely specific campaigns a ranger horizon walker might get a little more damage. Or one of the dips mentioned here would provide benefits with only a little lost. If you don't like boring full attacks I think that's about 4-5 ways you can get some variety while losing only a little bit of damage.

Btw to pull of the barbarian dip all you have to do is ask "how many encounters per day are there usually?" If you said "1 encounter 90% of the time" all you have to do is dip a level and nothing else. The other 10% of the time you eat the -2 to hit. If encounters/day varies then don't dip; a 2nd weapon is too expensive. The extra damage won't matter much at high levels, but since the OP wants something that works well now, that 2 damage will be very helpful at low to mid levels.

Thespianus

2011-05-08, 04:18 PM

I didn't check how you got those numbers but they look about right.
BAB +2, Dex 16(+3), Weapon Focus(+1), PBS +1, MW Longbow +1 = +8

With a Strength of 12 (+1), you could get a MW composite Longbow(+1 str),
and dish out 1D8+1 / 1D8+1 and another 1D8 + 1 from the Spiritual Weapon (at a +5 to hit), reaching 16.5 points of damage on average (reaching 18.5 if the Cleric is using Magic Weapon to boost the bow), compared to the 19.0 average damage from your example.

So it's close but no cigar for the Cleric. ;)

*And* you also need to invest in two separate Masterwork Longbows at +3 and +5 Strength respetively if you wanna be useful outside of your Rage. That's 1400 GP compared to 400 GP for the Cleric. With his 1000 extra GP, he can buy a Breastplate and a Wand of Shield for the money he saved on the two bows. That's an AC boost of 9 for "free". ;)

Also, keep in mind that you need to float a decent WIS score in there. This build doesn't. And I'm willing to bet that, considering Spiritual Weapon lasts rounds/level, you won't have it sitting around when a combat breaks out. You'd have to waste a round of combat just to cast it first.
True. It depends on the situation, if you have a buff round or not, etc. Still, if you know that combat is coming, you can buff yourself (or your fellow Barbarian/Fighter/Ranger), while the B/F/R just sits there, preparing to Rage. ;)

By round 3 at your first real attack most of the fight is over though. Yeah, if we assume that the fight starts without us knowing it. Isn't that what Rogues are for? ;)

And, still, at the start of round 3, the Spiritual Weapon has fired twice, even if we start from "scratch".

Also, are fights really over that quick in Core? Seems to me it would be longer fights, but I've never played Core only games. Naturally, when Quicken comes into play, the dynamic changes even more to the benefit of the casters.

EDIT: Also, the OP said he wanted to avoid multiclassing, which is why I'm pushing the Cleric a lil bit extra hard here. ;)

EDIT2: I managed to screw up my attempt at cleaning up the posts. I hope you folks can still follow what I write here.

ericgrau

2011-05-08, 04:25 PM

Core or not core fights average about 5 rounds, but a lot happens in the first 2. i.e. a dead foe now is a lot less painful than a dead foe on round 4. I'm in a huge group at the moment and fights still only go to 8-10 rounds, and the last 3 are often cleanup.

It's all about action economy; gauging whether or not you'd do more damage from simply attacking or something else vs. how much that buff or spell which also consumes an action will add over the entire fight. And rounding down b/c earlier damage is better than later damage.

EDIT: If the OP doesn't want to multiclass I'd go straight fighter or ranger or maybe rogue (with a LOT of help from the party wizard). He's level 5 now and 15 is a long way away simply to pull slightly ahead under ideal circumstances. Until then medium BAB and no attack/damage boosting class features (without wasting a precious round) is a huge drawback, not just a minor one. If the OP really won't PrC then he can beg the wizard to buff him with heroism, flame arrow and greater magic weapon at higher levels.

Thespianus

2011-05-08, 04:32 PM

Core or not core they average about 5 rounds, but a lot happens in the first 2. i.e. a dead foe now is a lot less painful than a dead foe on round 4. .
Yes, naturally. However, the Cleric can still contribute. Going "Nova" (which is a very small nova at level 3 or even level 7) means casting one spell at level 3, and two spells at level 7, but even without Divine Power, the Cleric Archer is still a decent Core Archer.

opticalshadow

2011-05-08, 04:35 PM

well im deffinitly concered with something that can do well early game, theres alot of time between level ups, so level 9 could be quite a long time from now, while we only have one or two encounters per session on normal, a game day can sometimes span over three sessions depending on what were doing. the one perk i liek about scout/ranger, is it sounds like its useful early level, and not any more worthless then a fighter later on, which puts on par with the group.

i sent an email to the DM asking about greater manyshot and swift hunter, if their in i may go for it, the cleric really sounds nice, and i want to use it, its just our group isnt big and i know how badly the power offset already is, so i think im going to save that build for another game (unless the scout/ranger idea doesnt man out, in which case i have to do something, i may even just get stuck with my druid, but the problem with him is i really need one more feat and/or the next wildshape to larger creatures, as he is now, the companion provides most use)