Grant Large as a +1LA?

[Kittenwolf]

Just wondering what you guys thought of this.
Would granting someone Large size, with the full standard ability score alterations, be pretty reasonable for a +1LA?
There are a couple of templates around (like Half Ogre and Half Minotaur) that grant Large size, but as written those templates are horridly overpowered, for eg Half Minotaur (going from Medium to Large) gives:
+12 Strength
+6 Con
-2 Dex
-2 int
+2 Wis
Scent
Track
60ft Darkvision
Gore Attack
+4 save vs Maze
+10ft Movement speed
+2 Spot, Listen, Search
+4 Natural Armor
For a +1LA

But looking at what simply advancing to Large gives, I think that sounds pretty reasonable for a +1LA (possibly with the +10ft movement thrown in), what do people think?
For reference, going Medium->Large grants
+8 Strength
-2 Dex
+4 Con
+2 Natural Armor

[Hirax]

An easy fix for half-minotaurs is to just not tack on the +8 strength, and other stats from the size increase. Otherwise goliath barbarians get a non-magical size increase when they rage. Half-ogres in Races of Destiny become large.

[Kittenwolf]

An easy fix for half-minotaurs is to just not tack on the +8 strength, and other stats from the size increase. Otherwise goliath barbarians get a non-magical size increase when they rage. Half-ogres in Races of Destiny become large.

That's what we're doing at the moment as well, I just figured that this might be a way for people to turn large without losing half their mental faculties.

[Hirax]

Have a look here, I don't know of a better list than this:
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=7081777

[Infernalbargain]

The large by itself is simply a feat. Jotunbrood IIRC from FR.

[Kittenwolf]

The large by itself is simply a feat. Jotunbrood IIRC from FR.

This just gives you a version of Powerful build, it does not give you Large size or the appropriate stat adjustments.

[Taelas]

Changing size from Medium to Large in and of itself would at least be worthy of a +1LA, yes. Possibly +2, considering the massive increase to Str.

[hamishspence]

Pathfinder has a "Giant Creature" template- +1 LA.

[Ravens_cry]

Changing size from Medium to Large in and of itself would at least be worthy of a +1LA, yes. Possibly +2, considering the massive increase to Str.
Size has it's own weaknesses, like not fitting in dungeon corrodors very well. Most you can squeeze through, while taking certain penelties, but some, like those meant for small creatures, you can not fit at all. Not to mention, your armour class is lower.
+1 is harsh enough.

[JaronK]

Eh, a Shrink Collar (A&EG Page 80) gets around the squeezing issues just fine. 10kgp, though.

JaronK

[Taelas]

The size of buildings and corridors do not impact level adjustment. It is far too transient a quality to base LA on. For instance, if you did reduce a LA simply because you feel the Large size is a penalty due to medium-sized dungeons, what happens in campaigns without dungeons or small buildings?

If you can't squeeze, get someone to cast Reduce Person (and if you spend a lot of time in dungeons, make it Permanent). It reduces your Str by a flat amount, so you would still be stronger than other Medium-sized characters.

The main reason I argue that +2 could be appropriate is that I would not hesitate to slap a +3 LA on that half-minotaur template. +12 Str, +6 con, Large-sized, with gore attacks? Seems to be more or less equal to Half-dragon (which gets smaller bonuses to more stats, with immunities and a breath weapon on top).

[JaronK]

The sad thing though... at higher levels, Half Minotaur is still underpowered for most of the folks that want to use it. Consider a Human Wizard 12 vs a Half Minotaur Water Orc Fighter 12... one of those can tear your campaign in half, the other one's solid at hitting stuff.

JaronK

[pres_man]

Pathfinder has a "Giant Creature" template- +1 LA.

I didn't think PF uses LA.

[hamishspence]

CR is considered equivalent to character levels (a CR 4 monster is equivalent to a level 4 character.

So a template that grants +1 CR should be roughly equivalent to +1 level, for PCs.

The template:

http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/monsters/monsterAdvancement.html

The monsters as PCs rules:

http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/monsters/monstersAsPCs.html

[Greenish]

The large by itself is simply a feat. Jotunbrood IIRC from FR.That's a less powerful version of Powerful Build, which is +1 on it's own, so it'd stand for a reason for actual Large size to be +2. Well, assuming the standard LAs weren't as out of whack as they are.

[Taelas]

The sad thing though... at higher levels, Half Minotaur is still underpowered for most of the folks that want to use it. Consider a Human Wizard 12 vs a Half Minotaur Water Orc Fighter 12... one of those can tear your campaign in half, the other one's solid at hitting stuff.

JaronK

Oh, no doubt, but that has little to do with the relative power of the template, and more to do with the extreme power of magic.

hamishspence, the PA rules for Monster PCs are too different from the 3.5 rules to adequately assign LAs based on them. LAs for creatures in 3.5 are different in Pathfinder because they have a different CR.

[FMArthur]

It takes two feats to get reach - in two different ways. One is through Willing Deformity feats and the other is through Aberrant Blood. So a Powerful Build character can count as Large for nearly purposes but without the actual space and penalties.

If you take the size drawbacks as well - such as penalties to AC, Attack and Hide I'd estimate it to be just LA +1 without any ability score increases.

[Ravens_cry]

The size of buildings and corridors do not impact level adjustment. It is far too transient a quality to base LA on. For instance, if you did reduce a LA simply because you feel the Large size is a penalty due to medium-sized dungeons, what happens in campaigns without dungeons or small buildings?

If you can't squeeze, get someone to cast Reduce Person (and if you spend a lot of time in dungeons, make it Permanent). It reduces your Str by a flat amount, so you would still be stronger than other Medium-sized characters.


You try squeezing a horse through corridors when you are a Paladin andyou tell me size doesn't matter. Also, 2 LA means your to-hit is also that much lower, which means, as far as to hit is concerned, your strength is four points lower. Reduce person to get through corridors means you suck even more.

[Greenish]

You try squeezing a horse through corridors when you are a Paladin andyou tell me size doesn't matter.Tunnel Riding, choo choo!

[Ravens_cry]

Tunnel Riding, choo choo!
Yes, very nice. Makes me wish I had Races of Stone.

[Taelas]

You try squeezing a horse through corridors when you are a Paladin andyou tell me size doesn't matter. Also, 2 LA means your to-hit is also that much lower, which means, as far as to hit is concerned, your strength is four points lower. Reduce person to get through corridors means you suck even more.

I didn't say size didn't matter. I said being forced to squeeze into small spaces should not affect LA.

[Kittenwolf]

Well lets see. Large:

+8 Strength
-2 Dex
+4 Con
+2 Natural Armor
-1 AC
-1 Hit

Lets assume for simplicity sake that the penalties to Hide & escape artist etc negate the bonuses to grapple & bull rush etc. If need be they can be used for equation balancing at the end.

We have a net total of:
+10 Ability Scores
+2 NA
-1 AC
-1 Hit
After reading through a couple of Wizards articles (most notably their breakdown of the Kobold stats), they consider +1/-1 size to AC and to hit to be roughly equivalent to a +2 Ability Score, and +1 NA is worth slightly less, maybe 2/3 of an ability score.

So +8 Ability Score Equivalents, and +2 NA (worth three). Lets call +2NA, with a bit of spillover from the skills etc, worth a +4 to ability scores to keep things even.

So in the end we have +4 Ability scores, Reach, and the nebulous "You are large" and qualify for feats as such. Probably easiest to leave the latter out of the equation for simplicity sake.

So. Is +4 Ability scores and Reach worth +1LA?

So we're looking at +4 Ability Scores and 2-3 feats equivalent. Personally I think that's fair for a +1LA

[danzibr]

I remember there being a pretty pedantic treatment of handling LA's a while ago... maybe another forum though.

[OrganicGolem]

yeah, except you aren't taking into account the fact that armor, and weapons cost twice as much for size large creatures. Thats assuming you are humanoid, otherwise its x4

[Kittenwolf]

yeah, except you aren't taking into account the fact that armor, and weapons cost twice as much for size large creatures. Thats assuming you are humanoid, otherwise its x4

This kind of thing we just lump into "Misc stuff that we don't need to count", same as since you're now large you qualify for particular feats, etc. Having to pay an extra 10g-1200g to have your basic armor made really doesn't factor into things.

[pres_man]

This kind of thing we just lump into "Misc stuff that we don't need to count", same as since you're now large you qualify for particular feats, etc. Having to pay an extra 10g-1200g to have your basic armor made really doesn't factor into things.

The fact that almost all magic weapons and armor that you find will not be your size might though.

[Veyr]

Magic items resize for the user, I'm pretty sure.

[Divide by Zero]

Is it just me, or does Natural Armor get way more LA in the official formula than it should?

[Tvtyrant]

This thread makes me want to ride a dungeonbred Rhinoceros through a dungeon at someone....

Also, I am introducing dungeonbred Driders into my next campaign.

[Lyndworm]

Magic items resize for the user, I'm pretty sure.
Items do, weapons don't. Magic Item Compendium clarifies it, I think. (I won't swear to anything.)


This thread makes me want to ride a dungeonbred Rhinoceros through a dungeon at someone....

Also, I am introducing dungeonbred Driders into my next campaign.
Both of those things are very awesome. DO THIS.

[OracleofWuffing]

Odd shot in the dark here, but what if it was an Acquired Template with a level requirement or an Inherited Template where the size increase kicked in after a certain level? My thought process here is that some monsters get size increases automatically for hit die advancement, but I can't think of anything that get size decreases for such advancement. So, like, basically emulate how monsters work but for PCs, and in WotC-theory, being bigger at level 10 is less of an advantage than at level 1. (Granted, that doesn't quite work, because it's probably a better deal for magic stuff to be small and whatnot, but that's why it's a shot in the dark.)

[ffone]

What's the reference for size increases automatically granting certain adjustments like +8 Str? Or does Half-Minotaur directly say +12 Str?

I see http://www.d20srd.org/srd/improvingMonsters.htm Size Increases section but AFAICT that's in the context of size increases due to increasing the racial HD of a monster.



The sad thing though... at higher levels, Half Minotaur is still underpowered for most of the folks that want to use it. Consider a Human Wizard 12 vs a Half Minotaur Water Orc Fighter 12... one of those can tear your campaign in half, the other one's solid at hitting stuff.

JaronK

Here's the thing:

GitPers constantly cite the tiers as justification for melee power-ups, but the fact is that in most groups, people still insist on playing melee characters (and aren't actually overshadowed by the casters; most groups are not hi-op)

If you allow or make one particular super-powerful template for Str-based characters, then everyone playing that archetype is going to use it, and now you have a campaign setting where every warrior on the planet seems to be a half-minotaur water orc, which is really cheesy and boring and monochrome. It's not a very good solution to "melee < casters". And in most groups it won't actually help party balance (for example, your Dex based noncasters are now left in the cold).

[Kittenwolf]

What's the reference for size increases automatically granting certain adjustments like +8 Str? Or does Half-Minotaur directly say +12 Str?

I see http://www.d20srd.org/srd/improvingMonsters.htm Size Increases section but AFAICT that's in the context of size increases due to increasing the racial HD of a monster.


It's exactly on that page you quoted. "Increased size also affects a creature’s ability scores, AC, attack bonuses, and damage values as indicated on the tables below"
The Racial HD thing is just a reminder that most monsters in the MM will increase in size when they hit a certain HD threshold.



but the fact is that in most groups, people still insist on playing melee characters (and aren't actually overshadowed by the casters; most groups are not hi-op)

This is a severe case of "your mileage will vary. In every game I've been in once you get to higher levels (8+) any casters in the party have overshadowed the non-casters (heck, my Sorcerer, using Polymorph and a quarterstaff was exactly as effective in melee as that party's power-attacker, and the unoptimised Druid was only just behind using nothing but standard Wildshape).
The only exception was in a game I ran where the party Binder survived things that even the primary casters couldn't, the ToB classes held their own.
And this was a party where the highest optimised character (at lvl 20) was a Kineticist with Overchannel.



It's not a very good solution to "melee < casters". And in most groups it won't actually help party balance (for example, your Dex based noncasters are now left in the cold).

I never said anything about this being a fix for melee<casters. The "Linear Warriors, Quadratic Wizards" is so ingrained in DnD (pre-4ed) that you're not going to be able to fix it without a major system overhaul.

[Taelas]

What's the reference for size increases automatically granting certain adjustments like +8 Str? Or does Half-Minotaur directly say +12 Str?

I see http://www.d20srd.org/srd/improvingMonsters.htm Size Increases section but AFAICT that's in the context of size increases due to increasing the racial HD of a monster.
The half-minotaur template specifically refers you to that table when it would cause you to increase size (which it does when applied to any small or medium-sized creature). It's from Dragon Magazine, specifically #313, I believe.

Changing size does NOT normally apply these modifiers (as the most common way of changing size is through magic). They are normally only invoked when changing size due to increased HD.

[Kittenwolf]

Changing size does NOT normally apply these modifiers (as the most common way of changing size is through magic). They are normally only invoked when changing size due to increased HD.

Yes and no. In the interest of balance most magical size increasing abilities don't reference that table, but any 'natural' size increase would grant those abilities.
It's just rare that PCs use a size-increasing (or decreasing) ability that doesn't have a stat increase listed that overrides the table.

[Taelas]

There is no 'natural' way for someone to change size, other than by advancing HD. The half-minotaur is a specific exception.

If you know of a different way, feel free to point it out.

[Kittenwolf]

There is no 'natural' way for someone to change size, other than by advancing HD. The half-minotaur is a specific exception.

If you know of a different way, feel free to point it out.

True, there aren't many. Half-Ogre template, I think there's a couple in Book of Templates, but that's non-core. The Giant Size spell from Complete Arcane also gives the bonuses listed in the Monster Manual.

[Cog]

True, there aren't many. Half-Ogre template,
Comes from the same issue of Dragon as Half-Minotaur, so while it's another example it's not really a precedent.


I think there's a couple in Book of Templates, but that's non-core.
"Non-core" is disingenuous. It's d20, not D&D.


The Giant Size spell from Complete Arcane also gives the bonuses listed in the Monster Manual.
It doesn't. A Large character using it for one increase (to Huge) would still gain the table's +16 to Str and other changes.

[Taelas]

The same applies to Small creatures... and Colossal ones. (Yes, by strict RAW, a Colossal creature could cast Giant Size and... 'grow'... to Huge size, if he so desired, assuming his Colossal size is not magical. He would gain all the benefits of doing so according to the table.)