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View Full Version : Elementalist - Prestigious Shugenja [3.5 PEACH]



Poppy Appletree
2011-05-09, 03:03 AM
So, I'd like some comment on a prestige class I designed a few years ago for a character I was playing, though in the end it never saw use. While constructing the class, I built upon some of the ideas presented by the shugenja class, such as their obvious connection to the elemental planes; the overall concept is that the elementalist is a shugenja who deepens their relationship to the elements by constructing an elemental familiar, from which they learn more about their favoured element.

I originally shared the elementalist here (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Elementalist_(3.5e_Prestige_Class)), so that others could use and modify it if they wanted to, because frankly, the shugenja is rather crappy, and should have some decent options provided to make it a better choice for a player to take.

Entry:

Due to the requirement that the character have the element focus, they must have at least one level of shugenja; in addition, the skill point requirement is fairly hefty, taking up 20 out of 32 of the skill points available to a non-human level 5 shugenja with 10 intelligence.

The class experiences some frontloading of abilities, but these abilities are rather ineffective at the early stages; in addition to the fact that the class explicitly requires the character to hold levels in shugenja, there is very little risk of this class being "dipped" into for easy features.

The 10th level of this class is, hopefully, powerful enough to present an incentive to carry on advancing in the class until its completion.

Feature discussion:

The class is designed with two major features, with a third being notable: These are the elemental familiar, elemental aspect, and advanced learning. Each of these features follow a defined progression.

The elemental familiar follows a progression that may not be immediately apparent: The difference between each category is a doubling series, Tiny being present at level 1, Small at level 2, Medium at level 4, and Large at level 8. In this way, it takes progressively more elementalist levels (and therefore commitment) to turn the elemental familiar into a viable combatant.

The elemental aspect feature is much more predictable, adding an extra usage and improving the ability's power every three levels. In the interests of feature spread, it may be worthwhile to split the progressions of the uses per day, possibly increasing the number of uses to five and adding an additional use at each odd level; in this way, the features are much more spread out, and the extra uses only overlap with the elemental aspect upgrades at 7th level.

Three of the remaining gaps are filled with advanced learning, taken from the specialist sorcerers (e.g. warmage), for the purpose of making the shugenja's restrictive spell list a bit more bearable.

Finally, greater element focus was thrown in to address the dead level at 5th level by providing a minor thematic ability.

The elementalist continues to advance the sense elements feature of the shugenja, as this ability is incredibly minor and is thematically appropriate.

Design notes:

When creating the class's features, I erred on the side of the overpowered, as I figure if this class is a bit overpowered, then it simply serves to compensate them for having started with a class that was very weak and had a poor and restricted spell list. At the point at which the elementalist completes their class, other classes are becoming insanely powerful, which should mean that the shugenja player is given a chance to catch up.

Each level of the class provides a boost in casting in addition to its other features, but this casting boost is only available for the shugenja class, which is weak anyway. The advanced learning feature doesn't impact heavily, but it does make the elementalist's lacklustre shugenja list a bit better.

The elemental familiar serves as a bodyguard to the shugenja, creating a pretty nifty tag team once the elemental familiar reaches an appropriate size; the party's warriors should not be made obsolete, however, as placing the familiar in frontline combat incurs the risk that the elementalist will lose their class features until constructing a new familiar, a process which presents an obvious inconvenience, but isn't so punishing that the elementalist is prevented from making effective usage of their class features.

The elemental familiar's traits were heavily based on that of the wizard's, and as such, it may be the case that they are a bit too powerful; the improved evasion and spell resistance features appear to be completely arbitrarily copied from the wizard's familiar, and removing them would not take anything away from the class's theme.

Should it be the case that the elementalist still appears too powerful after making any alterations mentioned above, the elemental aspect feature could be weakened, or the prestige class could be extended to 15 levels and spread out accordingly.

The name is, of course, not very original. Suggestions would be nice in that regard. Additionally, three years after its creation, the fluff is still empty, which is something that might want to be rectified.

So, with all that said, what are your thoughts?

Poppy Appletree
2011-05-09, 12:06 PM
Right, I suppose my original title wasn't very eye-catching. I'll stick a bump here, and then leave it at that.

Agent_0042
2011-05-09, 02:04 PM
A bunch of stuff on the familiar:

First, the write-up for the ability is awkward. The ritual in particular is pretty clunky, especially considering that this isn't something that is going to be performed in combat time. This needs to be rewritten and streamlined.[br][br]
Sorcerer and Wizard familiars use their master's HP, BAB, saves, etc. Is this the case here, or do the creatures use their own stat block specifically?[br][br]
You have the familiar starting off as tiny, but to my knowledge there is no published stat block for a tiny elemental. Something else for you to write out, maybe?[br][br]
The advancement on the elemental is not clear. The table and a brief mention in the ability description list the familiar as advancing by size, but you have a separate paragraph mentioning adding HD. Because of how you have it written up, this can lend itself towards two separate interpretations:

What I think you wanted, and what the numbers do line up for - use the regular monster advancement rules. The Tiny elemental has 1HD. At second level, you add a HD, which bumps it up to Small. Another at level 3, and another at level 4 which bumps it to Medium. And so on.
Another interpretation, use the listed size of elemental as the base creature. Add the additional HD on top of that. Level 1, it's a Tiny elemental with 1 HD. Levels 2 and 3, it's a Small elemental with 3 and 4 HD. Level 4, it's a Medium elemental with 7 HD. And so on.
[br]
So this also needs to be made clearer. If you're using the first interpretation, it might be easier just to say "Level 1, you get a Tiny elemental. Level 2, you get a Small elemental. Level 4, you get a Medium elemental." Oddly enough, though, the second interpretation may actually be better for the class, and let me tell you why.[br][br]
You say that you want the familiar to be a viable combatant, at least at higher levels, but that actually opposite what is not currently the case. Not only does the elemental start out five HD behind the party (assuming you entered the class as soon as possible), the CR does not scale linearly with the hit dice of the elemental. At your first and second levels of the class, you're bringing a CR1 to fight CR6s and CR7s. Level four, you have a CR3 to help you against CR9s. Level eight, that's a CR5 against CR 13s. Now, I realize that CR isn't an accurate or even a good way of guessing a creature's combat ability, but in this case it's working on both ends.

My suggestion? Levels 1/3/5/7/9, you get a Small/Medium/Large/Huge/Greater elemental. It's still a good bit less powerful than level-appropriate opposition, but it neither overshadows the party fighter nor becomes relatively worse as you gain levels.


Honestly, the class isn't that powerful. I mean, I'd dive right into it as a shugenja, but that's more of a judgment on the shugenja. The familiar is, as I mentioned, not much of a help in combat as currently written. The elemental aspects are flavorful but not, strictly speaking, more powerful that whatever spells the shugenja is getting at the given level. A nice class, thematic, but not overpowered.

Poppy Appletree
2011-05-09, 02:57 PM
*Snip*

You make some very good points, and I'll try to address them. Your bullet list is, however, very awkward to quote, so I'll respond in sections.

Ritual:

Rewriting the ritual should not present a problem, and I'll probably want to move it away from the abilities section, as it mostly comes across as flavour anyway.

Advancement, HD and saves:

Regarding the elemental's advancement and stats, it follows the advancement path presented in the Monster Manual, which has Tiny at 1HD, Small at 2HD, Medium at 4HD, Large at 8HD and Huge at 16HD; a stat block for a tiny elemental can be found here (http://www.wizards.com/dnd/article.asp?x=dnd/sb/sb20011109a). As this takes from two separate sources, it would be a good idea for me to include a table that can be referenced. In order to increase the size of the familiar whilst following the standard rules, it would be necessary to start the familiar off with a greater number of HD or provide it with a bonus HD/stats table, possibly treating it more similarly to the animal companion or paladin's mount. The issue of saves is something that I will need to consider as well.

Power of the familiar in combat:

I had some concerns about making the familiar too powerful, though I suppose they aren't particularly valid. You're right that elementals don't have very high challenge ratings, meaning that there is more room to tank up the familiar.

One important note is that one of the useful spells that any shugenja does have access to is the ability to call elementals through Summon Nature's Ally, and comparing the familiar to other elementals the shugenja can summon, it is a good point that the elemental familiar could do with being more beefy. Using SNAVI, you can get a Large elemental to fight for you, whilst the elemental familiar presented only reaches Large size when the elementalist is ECL 13, compared to ECL 12 for SNAVI, and does not advance beyond that point. The familiar does have the benefit of being permanent, yes, but it's not a point that holds much sway.

Possible improvements:

The two major powers present in the class are that of the elementalist adopting the elemental's abilities, and the familiar, which provides several cooperative powers (share spells, spell relay, enhance matrix). If I am to increase the power of the class, these are the abilities that need adding to, as otherwise the class would become unfocused. I note that you didn't comment on the elemental aspect ability, so I'll keep to commenting on the familiar and cooperation powers.

The enhance matrix power should be expanded to give a range of possible benefits such as allowing the elemental to be healed by the elementalist's spells, providing more incentive to invest spells into it. One possibility is that summoning elementals into the familiar using the enhance matrix power could stack the summoned elemental's HD onto the familiar, massively increasing its HD for the spell's duration.

Another thing I could do to increase the power of the familiar is to present customisation options for the familiar itself, as well as replacing some of the generic wizard familiar powers with ways in which the familiar can draw power from the elementalist, such as gaining some of the elementalist's spells as spell-like abilities.

If that's still not enough, I could throw in some more cooperation powers, such as allowing the elementalist to integrate into the familiar's body to provide a more immediate damage shield.

I thank you for your feedback, and await your comment on the ideas proposed.

EDIT: As an extra possibility, from the discussion of the shugenja's access to elemental summoning above, the elementalist could receive free Augment Summoning.

Elfstone
2011-05-09, 05:21 PM
I would say that allowing the Familiar to cast a limited number of the spells used to create it as an SLA. This would be strictly regulated, but would add nice flair and a bit of power.

I would so under no circumstances is the class overpowered. And in a few, its underpowered.

To be frank, the bonuses gained by the main class feature, Elemental Aspect can be easily replicated by one round of casting, and at lower levels, I would recommend it as the penalties are fairly steep. I think the trance should boost CL with the associated spell and grant bonuses when casting/using the favored element.

I also agree wholeheartedly with what Agent said. Hope this helps.