Let's optimize an E6 rogue/ranger!

[veven]

A player in my E6 game wants to play a multiclass rogue/ranger who dual wields hand crossbows. He asked for help with the build so i decided to come look for some ideas at the playground.

So far the build I am gonna suggest is Rogue1/Wild shaping mystic ranger 5. He won't get access to 3rd level spells but he'll still be pretty versatile.

Feats in mind are, Craven, Crossbow Sniper (half dex to damage, sneak attack at 60ft), Twf (from ranger) All the basic archery feats (although TWF+Rapid shot = lots of misses), Metamagic School Focus: Divination, Extend Spell (with these two he can cast a 2 round duration hunters eye for free). I am also going to recommend the spell gifted trait, to get CL 6 with hunter's eye for 2d6 extra sneak attack instead of 1d6. I might actually try to convince him to go ranger 6 with the two aforementioned variants and the trapfinding one from dungeonscape but he seems pretty attached to the rogue part.

Any other ideas?

Edit: skip that getting two weapon fighting from ranger thing, i forgot wildshape ranger looses the bonus feats.

[true_shinken]

Add Handcrossbow Focus and Gloves of the Master Strategist for reloading. I'd drop wildshaping ranger, because you can't use a crossbow in wildshape, so he won't be playing what he wants.
Also, use splitting bolts. Get Improved Favored Enemy and Extra Favored Enemy when you can, those feats really shine on e6.
EDIT: Rogue 1 is actually good here because it adds proficiency with the hand crossbow.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

I'd change it to Martial Rogue (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#rogue) 2/ Wildshape Mystic Ranger 4, you'll still get 2nd level spells and Fast Movement but the extra feats and Evasion should come in handy. You're going to need Rapid Reload or preferably Hand Crossbow Focus (http://wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20070430a&page=2), along with TWF and probably even Weapon Focus. Don't forget about Point-Blank Shot and Precise Shot.

I'd use Poison Dusk Lizardfolk (MM3), the +1 LA will reduce your point buy stats but it's totally worth it, especially considering they get poison use as a racial traits so get Craft: Poisonmaking and prepoison all your bolts.

[Knaight]

Add Handcrossbow Focus and Gloves of the Master Strategist for reloading. I'd drop wildshaping ranger, because you can't use a crossbow in wildshape, so he won't be playing what he wants.
Also, use splitting bolts. Get Improved Favored Enemy and Extra Favored Enemy when you can, those feats really shine on e6.
EDIT: Rogue 1 is actually good here because it adds proficiency with the hand crossbow.

This should bring the concept up to power on its own, evening it up with a relatively non optimized concept that 3.5 actually supports well. I also agree that wild shaping needs to be dropped, it seems not to fit the concept at all.

[Thespianus]

Feats in mind are, Craven, Crossbow Sniper (half dex to damage, sneak attack at 60ft), Twf (from ranger) All the basic archery feats (although TWF+Rapid shot = lots of misses), Metamagic School Focus: Divination, Extend Spell (with these two he can cast a 2 round duration hunters eye for free).
You also need Spell Focus(divination) to get Metamagic School Focus, so unless you can get that from somewhere else, it makes the build very feat intensive, three feats to get a -1 Metamagic reduction for Hunter's Eye? Not worth it, IMHO.

Also, getting Sneak Attacks with ranged weapons is very hard, since you will be missing out on Flanking ability. It will be frustrating to play the character: The Player will miss alot and make very little damage.

[true_shinken]

You also need Spell Focus(divination) to get Metamagic School Focus, so unless you can get that from somewhere else, it makes the build very feat intensive, three feats to get a -1 Metamagic reduction for Hunter's Eye? Not worth it, IMHO.

Yeah, just get Arcane Thesis.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

That he can't use his crossbows in Wild Shape is irrelevant, he'd be getting it 1/day for up to 5 hrs, the best use of it would be noncombat applications such as shaping into a Dire Hawk (RotW) to be able to fly. Plus it also gets Fast Movement at 1st level, as the Barbarian class feature. However, you lose the Ranger Combat Style for taking the Wild Shape variant, so you'll need to spend a feat on TWF. Just going (Mystic) Ranger 6 would probably be better anyway since you can get ITWF and have twice as many attacks/round.

Yet another option that would probably be better in the long run would be to use Thug (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#fighterVariantThug), either with or without Sneak Attack (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#fighter), and do a Wilderness Thug (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#rogueVariantWilderness Rogue) variation. That gets full BAB, can get Weapon Specialization, and it can even take the Fighter capstone feat to qualify for Ranged Weapon Mastery. You'll have nearly as many skill points/level and about the same list of class skills plus all the Fighter perks. I'd skip sneak attack since it'll be a feat-heavy build anyway, plus the Fighter-exclusive feats will be far more reliable than trying to enable sneak attack full attacks in a ranged build.

[Thespianus]

Yeah, just get Arcane Thesis.

Doesn't work, since it's specific to Arcane Spells, and the Ranger casts divine spells. :(


To the OP: How about a Rogue 3/Scout 3 with Swift Ambusher? You get 2D6 Sneak attack damage ( + Craven) when you sneak attack, but you can also gain +2D6 skirmish damage? In some situations, you might be able to apply both.

This removes the ranger casting, however. Get Quick Draw, use Skill Tricks to gain Sneak attack damage with hidden weapons, run up to enemies and pull a hidden blade, and score a sweet +4D6+6 in combined sneak and skirmish damage. ;)

[true_shinken]

Doesn't work, since it's specific to Arcane Spells, and the Ranger casts divine spells. :(
I could swear it only required arcane spells but it worked on any spell...
I just checked, you are correct.

[dextercorvia]

Midnight Metamagic would do it. Only 1/day though, unless you can cheese it out with Psycarnum Infusion.

[veven]

EDIT: Rogue 1 is actually good here because it adds proficiency with the hand crossbow.

We are using the Weapon Group feats variant, so he has proficiency already. So wasting a bunch of feats to get some sneak attack has been dropped. After looking at some of the ranger variants the player is pretty sure he wants to go ranger 6 to get access to the capstone feats (two home brew ones for mystic ranger for the 2nd favored enemy and for evasion).

For added damage maybe I'll throw him a +1 collision hand xbow or two, after an appropriately difficult session.

When I originally started working on the ideas for this campaign I had planned on using the Armor as Damage reduction variant but now....blegh. My options are, "sorry dude, thats life (of course I would give him squishies to shoot at)", or just not do it (but i really wanted to give it a try :( ), I had planned on him getting a couple legendary ones with the force enhancement by level 5 ish. Would giving a pair of +1 Force Collision Hand crossbows be waaaaay too much at the level 6 + a couple feats area? The group so far is a Druid and an Archivist and a yet to be chosen primary melee (probably something TOB though). I feel like with those weapons he would still barely be keeping up but that is about 100,000gp worth of weapons on an effectively 6-8 level character. If i decide to do this, he will earn them in a competition held by the guy who pioneered the style but is about to die.

[Kalaska'Agathas]

Splitting (from Champions of Ruin if I remember correctly) is better than Collision, on balance. You might consider suggesting the Shooting Star variant and Sword of the Arcane Order (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=10830.0) to go along with your Mystic Ranger, and maybe Scout and Swift Hunter (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=103.0) if you can pull it off within 6 levels. Bonus damage dice can really help a 3.5 Archery build (check out the Archery Handbook (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=642.0), now that I think about it) especially with the Splitting enchantment, because that basically doubles your damage dice (Splitting gives you twice the bolts, and importantly twice the attack rolls so you do get your precision damage on all of them) and can get some really impressive volleys up.

What sort of character is your player wanting, though? A wilderness based character with lots of skills and hand crossbows? Because a Wilderness Rogue (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#rogueVariantWilderness Rogue) might do that pretty well. You could also consider the Scout too, if you'd like.

Also, a couple of Splitting Force Hand Crossbows wouldn't put him ahead of your Druid, Archivist, or even your ToB character (though the ToB could probably use something similar for a mêlée weapon), not by a long shot.

I hope this helps!

[veven]

He's kinda going for a fantasy cowboy thing I guess. Swift hunter is certainly on the table. If he wants the higher ranger spells it's not like other mystic rangers don't exist, he could just buy some wands from them. With Swift hunter though we now have to move around and don't get to full attack. It's E6 though, so there are a ton of feats, he could just take travel devotion a couple times. We usually don't have more than 3 battles a day anyways.

[true_shinken]

He's kinda going for a fantasy cowboy thing I guess.
...without a horse? :smallconfused:

[SilverLeaf167]

Buying a horse is really cheap. He doesn't really need a special horse...

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Wild Cohort (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/re/20031118a), and use Handle Animal to give it the Warbeast template (MM2).

[Thespianus]

...without a horse? :smallconfused:

Someone stole it. Instant plot hook! :smallwink:

[veven]

...without a horse? :smallconfused:
DANG! I can't believe we didn't even think of this. This raises a new question..How does skirmish work while mounted?

Edit: Nevermind :(, Just took a look at the Complete adventurer Errata...that sucks. Maybe I'll make a home brew feat called Mounted Skirmish or something. Thoughts?


Someone stole it. Instant plot hook! :smallwink:


GAAH! I love this so much. Totally doing it.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Source (http://wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/er/20040125a) proving once again that characters without spellcasting can't have nice things.

Page 12: Skirmish (class feature)
The second sentence of the skirmish class feature
should read as follows (new text indicated in red): She
deals an extra 1d6 points of damage on all attacks she
makes during any round in which she moves at least 10
feet away from where she was at the start of her turn.
The extra damage applies only to attacks made after the
scout has moved at least 10 feet. The skirmish ability
cannot be used while mounted.
This update should be made wherever the skirmish
ability description is presented (see also pages 31, 56,
and 177).
Edit: It still works if you train your horse to bull rush you 10 ft. every round, though.

[Cieyrin]

With ToB on the table, I wouldn't worry at all about Rogue, as you can just Martial Stance your way into Assassin's Stance for Sneak damage, plus Craven if that's your cup of tea. Also with Mystic Ranger 6, you have the BAB to pick up Manyshot and Improved Rapid Shot (CW), which'll improve your accuracy fairly well. Plus, Manyshot would be useful for those situations when you don't want to just stand there and shoot, which fits with the cowboy genre quite well, what with the running from cover to cover, though I suppose that fits better with Shot on the Run but you can fake it with Travel Devotion, anyways. :smallwink:

[veven]

With ToB on the table, I wouldn't worry at all about Rogue, as you can just Martial Stance your way into Assassin's Stance for Sneak damage, plus Craven if that's your cup of tea. Also with Mystic Ranger 6, you have the BAB to pick up Manyshot and Improved Rapid Shot (CW), which'll improve your accuracy fairly well. Plus, Manyshot would be useful for those situations when you don't want to just stand there and shoot, which fits with the cowboy genre quite well, what with the running from cover to cover, though I suppose that fits better with Shot on the Run but you can fake it with Travel Devotion, anyways. :smallwink:

IIRC, Assassin's Stance is a 3rd level stance so he wouldn't actually qualify unless he had an Initiator level of 5.

Also, he is using hand crossbows and even though it does not explicitly say otherwise, I doubt manyshot works with crossbows.

[veven]

Edit: It still works if you train your horse to bull rush you 10 ft. every round, though.

Rights haha, I caught that :(. I'd like to avoid having a horse just push him around all the time, heh. Any thoughts on homebrewing a feat that lets him skirmish while mounted? It'd be better than travel devotion but it would be limited to being mounted so I think it might work.

[Kalaska'Agathas]

Rights haha, I caught that :(. I'd like to avoid having a horse just push him around all the time, heh. Any thoughts on homebrewing a feat that lets him skirmish while mounted? It'd be better than travel devotion but it would be limited to being mounted so I think it might work.

Well, since it's E6 it wouldn't be much of a tax, and since you've already got a Druid and an Archivist I doubt it will cause any major problems - it just lets him do his schtick in another situation, and his schtick isn't a problem (balance wise) so being able to skirmish when mounted should consequently not be a problem.

He'll still want Travel Devotion for those situations when he's unmounted for whatever reason.

[Greenish]

Rights haha, I caught that :(. I'd like to avoid having a horse just push him around all the time, heh. Any thoughts on homebrewing a feat that lets him skirmish while mounted? It'd be better than travel devotion but it would be limited to being mounted so I think it might work.I'd actually recommend just ignoring the errata, it's bloody awful.

Also, there's a scout ACF or alternative class somewhere (dragon mag, methinks) made for mounted combat.

[veven]

I'd actually recommend just ignoring the errata, it's bloody awful.

This is probably what I'll end up doing. He'll have plenty of feats he needs to take, there is no use in throwing in another. I want the players to eventually get to the point where their builds are pretty rounded out and they start taking feats that normally wouldn't be taken in a regular game. Luck feats and fun stuff like that.

[Cieyrin]

Also, there's a scout ACF or alternative class somewhere (dragon mag, methinks) made for mounted combat.

Yep, Dragon 346, along with a Sniper ACF which is neat in concept but rather awful.