Helping Healers Help Themselves

[Coidzor]

One of my friends is playing a Healer 4/Favored Soul 5... or vice versa. Suffice to say, she's fallen into the trap of thinking having that many more low level spells would be better than casting at the same level as the wizard and psion we have.

In the interest of helping her, as her current level of effectiveness was just enough to make the characters who'd been reduced to needing in-combat healing even bigger targets, I've come to see if there's anything that fixed the atrocious casting of the healer or that could get her a dual progression PrC so at least she wouldn't be 5 levels behind on both ends and increasing how far behind she was with every level. Without asking the DM to homebrew it all up for her, that is.

And some suggested arguments for persuading her to even consider this would be nice as well, since I'm pretty sure two characters died because she was hoarding the one item of Heal she had left because she is 5-6 levels away from being able to cast it herself. By which I mean she'll never be able to cast it in this campaign rather than getting it a bit late.

[adecoy95]

healer 5/favored soul 4?

to be honest that is really terrible, and i doubt there is a lot you can do to fix that.

you could always ask the dm to let her make a new character.

the only suggestions i could give is, practiced spellcaster for the caster levels, the vigor spell line for good healing between combats (up to 15 points as a 1st level spell), faith healing for a maximized cure light wounds (cant use it on anyone tho), and spells like brambles could be used to try to beat the enemy to death before they do the same to you :smallbiggrin:

[Tokuhara]

One of my friends is playing a Healer 4/Favored Soul 5... or vice versa. Suffice to say, she's fallen into the trap of thinking having that many more low level spells would be better than casting at the same level as the wizard and psion we have.

In the interest of helping her, as her current level of effectiveness was of direct detriment to the characters who've been reduced to needing in-combat healing, I've come to see if there's anything that fixed the atrocious casting of the healer or that could get her a dual progression PrC so at least she wouldn't be 5 levels behind on both ends and increasing how far behind she was with every level. Without asking the DM to homebrew it all up for her, that is.

And some suggested arguments for persuading her to even consider this would be nice as well, since I'm pretty sure two characters died because she was hoarding the one item of Heal she had left because she is 5-6 levels away from being able to cast it herself. By which I mean she'll never be able to cast it in this campaign rather than getting it a bit late.

Obligatory Link (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=6849.0)

As for a Divine Magus, I almost suggest taking what UM gives you and just refluff as needed. Call it Divine Adept

[Coidzor]

healer 5/favored soul 4?

to be honest that is really terrible, and i doubt there is a lot you can do to fix that.

you could always ask the dm to let her make a new character.

Well, I'm seeing if I can work with her and maybe find either A. a way to get a Healer that is actually any good at healing so she can be full Healer or B. a way to get her levels retrained into a dual progression PrC that is well regarded enough I can have some leverage in proposing it.

[Seerow]

Two different decent healer fixes I know of offhand:

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=133118
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=192141


The first is a spontaneous caster, the second is a prepared caster, with spontaneous domain casting. Both are a step up from the baseline healer, but each suits a different style of play. Personally I'd go with the first, but which you'd prefer is up to you.




As for a Divine Magus, there isn't one that I'm aware of, but like someone else said, just refluffing it a bit and changing arcane to divine should work fine, honestly.

[true_shinken]

Just have her rebuild it as a straight Favored Soul.

[Coidzor]

Is there a Healery PrC that would work with the Favored Soul, maybe?

I'm not sure how well I could convince her just offhand to try to convert to being a straight Favored Soul without either some numbers or a good explanation of why the higher level spells are better than lots of low level spells, especially in the face of the damage that the enemies deal out versus what healing she can do, especially since she thinks having +CHA to her healing spells is that much of an edge. I think maybe the last session we went through was an object lesson in the gap between her healing capabilities and the damage output of enemies, but I'm not sure if that'll work or if she'll just retreat into denial and blame the rest of us for sucking against enemy casters that the DM custom made to give us a much worse day than we had when we would've fought them with a full party much less the 3/4 party we faced them with.

But I think that's probably the more important part of her character's fluff to her, that connection to... whatever unnamed deity she's working for.

IRN: What's the best way to get rid of Confusion?


edit: ...I think she might be rather excited about that unicorn the Healer gets... or confused about the DM's take on Multiclass XP penalties, because we've never played with them in the past...:smallconfused:

[Greenish]

Is there a Healery PrC that would work with the Favored Soul, maybe?Combat Medic from Heroes of Battle does… something, I forget. Might work.

There's an exalted (or whatever those holier than thou spells were called) spell that allows you to call an unicorn to serve you for a year.

[true_shinken]

Is there a Healery PrC that would work with the Favored Soul, maybe?
Favored Soul 5/Master of Radiance 1/Radiant Servant of Pelor 2. You have one free level here. Feats: Planar Touchstone (for the Sun domain), Extra Turning, Augmented Healing, Sacred Healing
Master of Radiance gives you turn undead (to fuel Sacred Healing). Radiant Servant of Pelor gets you a free Empower on your healing spells. Augment Healing gives a +2.
I think this heals more than a Healer.

[Coidzor]

Combat Medic from Heroes of Battle does… something, I forget. Might work.

Point, was wondering if there might be anything else... Just trying to get as much info as I can so I know what to say depending upon how talking to her goes.


There's an exalted (or whatever those holier than thou spells were called) spell that allows you to call an unicorn to serve you for a year.

Oh, anyone remember the name of that?

...isn't there another PrC in BoED that gets one a unicorn as well? :smallconfused:

[true_shinken]

...isn't there another PrC in BoED that gets one a unicorn as well? :smallconfused:
Beloved of Valarian, I think.

[Gnaeus]

Is there a Healery PrC that would work with the Favored Soul, maybe?

I'm not sure how well I could convince her just offhand to try to convert to being a straight Favored Soul without either some numbers or a good explanation of why the higher level spells are better than lots of low level spells, especially in the face of the damage that the enemies deal out versus what healing she can do, especially since she thinks having +CHA to her healing spells is that much of an edge. I think maybe the last session we went through was an object lesson in the gap between her healing capabilities and the damage output of enemies, but I'm not sure if that'll work or if she'll just retreat into denial and blame the rest of us for sucking against enemy casters that the DM custom made to give us a much worse day than we had when we would've fought them with a full party much less the 3/4 party we faced them with.

But I think that's probably the more important part of her character's fluff to her, that connection to... whatever unnamed deity she's working for.

IRN: What's the best way to get rid of Confusion?


edit: ...I think she might be rather excited about that unicorn the Healer gets... or confused about the DM's take on Multiclass XP penalties, because we've never played with them in the past...:smallconfused:

Suggestion 1: Spontaneous Cleric > Radiant Servant of Pelor. (best)
Suggestion 2: Favored Soul, with Contemplative (for Sun Domain) and Sacred Exorcist (for turning) > Radiant Servant of Pelor
Suggestion 3: Favored soul 5, Cleric 1> Radiant Servant of Pelor
And last: Healer 5, Cleric 1> Radiant Servant of Pelor

Combat medic is good also.

[cooperflood]

Favored Soul isn't that powerful to begain with so why don't you just add Healing Hands (CHA to Healing) as a special ability at 1st level and grant the Unicorn at 8th. It won't make any difference to the character's power level, but it sounds like it would convince him to play a full caster (while still meeting his desired flavor).

[Person_Man]

The simplest fix is to simply allow her to play a Healer 9 or Favored Soul 9. If she goes strait Healer make her spellcasting spontanous from her entire list (like the Beguiler) and SAD spellcasting (run off of Wis or Cha only, and not both as it is currently written). If she goes Favored Soul she'll be fine as is (just point out the best spells), though again you could make it SAD spellcasting to make her life easier.

[TroubleBrewing]

Favored Soul isn't that powerful to begain with

I guess. I mean, Tier 2 IS lower than Tier 1. :smallconfused:

[cooperflood]

I guess. I mean, Tier 2 IS lower than Tier 1. :smallconfused:

That's potential, in the hands of the this player the Favored Soul won't be a powerhouse. Besides adding a Unicorn and CHA to healing won't change it's tier.

[ubergeek63]

One of my friends is playing a Healer 4/Favored Soul 5... or vice versa. Suffice to say, she's fallen into the trap of thinking having that many more low level spells would be better than casting at the same level as the wizard and psion we have.

I am a little confused having read the entire thread and not seen the answer from the DM's guide: Mystic Theurge - THE devine version of the Ultimate Magus ... sort of ... divine/arcane combo

[RaginChangeling]

I am a little confused having read the entire thread and not seen the answer from the DM's guide: Mystic Theurge - THE devine version of the Ultimate Magus ... sort of ... divine/arcane combo

... She has no arcane casting at all and can't qualify for it. Favored Soul and Healer are both Divine. Unless you are suggesting she take like 4 levels in Sorcerer to qualify, but that would gimp her even further.

[Jude_H]

Trailblazer from Badaxe Games has a caster multiclassing variant would solve a lot of problems. But that's a huge change for one character.

Honestly, a homebrewed multiclassing feat that stacked Healer and Favored Soul for FS's caster level and Healer's Spellcasting Level probably wouldn't be unreasonable in terms of balance. I'm having a hard time seeing that break anything, until Gate comes into the picture. And at level 17, that's really the sort of thing that should be expected.

[Coidzor]

So, I guess...

The most important issue here is getting her to see my side of the issue, because I'm really concerned that she is simply incapable of even fulfilling the quiet cohort healer role she's decided to take. ...Especially since I think she's the only person with social skills as class skills that might've taken them at all, so I kind of want the character to stick around but for it to just... be able to do its job without making me worried she'll just get me killed by healing me up just enough to be considered a threat and dropped to -35 from 1 hp like happened to our Warforged Fighter.

What do I need to say in order to highlight how higher level spells more than makes up for the lack of having more low-level healing spells? I know you can only cast so many spells in a fight and outside of a fight, a wand of CLW or 3 over the course of a game is cheap and will take care of HP.

The DM freely allows rebuilding the characters within reason, especially if it makes a lot of sense which it easily would here for her character. Problem is, he's falling back and burying his head in the sand with the mantra "We're not optimizers, it's ok and doesn't matter." When her judgment ended up killing a PC that the DM is ignoring here for some strange reason that I can't fathom.

Maybe he's grateful that she's inept so he can more easily kill off PCs when she makes them valid targets for him again and they're just in on it together in a grand act of trolling. :smallannoyed: I don't know, but I do know that I really don't like how that possibility even crossed my mind.

[Rei_Jin]

If she wants more low level spell slots, show her the ring of wizardry. Explain how you could get someone to make a version of it that is usable by a healer to double their level 1 spell slots. Repeat for other spell slots, then "suggest" that they consider using those to have lots of low level spells, and swap the Favoured Soul levels for Healer levels. Voila, lots of low level spell slots, and higher ones too!

The other suggestion, of making the Healer SAD and cast spontaneously from their entire list... I endorse whole heartedly. Combine these three ideas and you'll have a pretty good healer on your hands.

[Jude_H]

It sounds like you're giving someone a hard time for playing the game in a way you think is wrong. I dn;t know if that actually is the situation, but it's one of the most obnoxious things people do around the game table.

If she doesn't want to rebuild, and other members of your group don't care, just stop. Chill. Buy/make/whatever a couple wands of Lesser Vigor. Don't worry about her character. If the alternative is stressing out about it and annoying the **** out of the rest of your group, you should probably take a step back and either enjoy the game despite character turnover or sit this one out.

[Greenish]

It sounds like you're giving someone a hard time for playing the game in a way you think is wrong.Well, it's obviously detracting from the game, why else would he be here asking for help?

Besides, if you're playing drastically differently from everyone else, and that's causing problems, you are playing the game wrong (for that particular table).

[Jude_H]

Besides, if you're playing drastically differently from everyone else, and that's causing problems, you are playing the game wrong (for that particular table).
That's what I mean. From what Coidzor has posted, it sounds like he's the one who is playing a different game. At least two players are playing much more casually than he is, and it doesn't sound like the other players are giving him any support.

[Coidzor]

If she doesn't want to rebuild, and other members of your group don't care, just stop. Chill. Buy/make/whatever a couple wands of Lesser Vigor. Don't worry about her character. If the alternative is stressing out about it and annoying the **** out of the rest of your group, you should probably take a step back and either enjoy the game despite character turnover or sit this one out.

The only people who don't have a problem with it are playing casters or ranged and so they don't need healing at all because they only get hit when they're not doing their jobs at all and the DM. And I'm rather skeptical about the intellectual honesty of the DM in this matter.

This matter is especially near and dear to my heart, since he begged for me to provide the group with melee when I rejoined after moving away for a year and the warforged fighter that got killed rerolled as an archivist so I'm pretty much dependent upon her tender mercies since the archivist is focused on battlefield control, though he's scribed up a few scrolls so that this character can actually contribute something to the fight.

As it was, last time she played she was actively debating between casting bless, ineffectively healing people for a pittance of HP in a fight where the DM decided that although he hates optimizers and optimizing, he could throw around big numbers too, and using the staff of healing she had that she didn't want to use because, as I said, she is about as many levels away from being able to cast herself as she is multiclassed in her secondary class.

To be honest, I don't think the idea of rebuilding has even crossed her mind, especially since she's been rather distracted by the whole problem of graduating and senior capstones in undergraduate.


It sounds like you're giving someone a hard time for playing the game in a way you think is wrong. I dn;t know if that actually is the situation, but it's one of the most obnoxious things people do around the game table.

I haven't given her a hard time about it and I don't want to, which is why I asked you all for some wisdom and advice about broaching the subject as diplomatically as possible.

I want to inform her enough that if she walks down this path, it's a deliberate decision on her part rather than the result of ignorance, especially since she gave encouragement prior to that battle that she was able to take care of healing in combat with the fights the DM was throwing at them.

Considering the evidence provided by the first battle I ever fought with them where healing in combat was relevant, I am, understandably disappointed in her capabilities and feel my trust has been abused to at least a small extent.

Addendum:
That's what I mean. From what Coidzor has posted, it sounds like he's the one who is playing a different game. At least two players are playing much more casually than he is, and it doesn't sound like the other players are giving him any support.

The guy whose AoO chain fighter got killed is rolling up an archivist in retaliation to losing his character due to her actions. The rest of the group aside from the new people are all casters and a monk that everyone forgets about because he has had laughably little to contribute, a dwarf fighter cohort that was mostly forgotten about before he disappeared to make room for us in the party except for when he was dwarven comedy, and a half-dragon fighter cohort that literally was forgotten about by the DM and his player and they had to hastily retcon what he'd been up to for the past... oh... 4 sessions.

Then again, I think the guy who rerolled decided to go that route because the Psion decided that dealing with mooks who couldn't hurt the casters was more important than not having our heads blown off by two casters focused on screwing us over, so there was no point in providing defenses against mooks to the party in the form of melee muscle. That, and the DM was telling him that he'd be reincarnated and unable to switch out his first level feat for anything because he'd spent it on Adamantine Body and the DM was being an ass deliberately on that point because it was only because it was a warforged body feat that he objected to it at all, anyone else, any other kind of feat, he'd just let get retrained.

Which kind of leaves me annoyed with the DM for encouraging us to play that when the party does not seem to have actually needed us due to the psion's blasting and if we had both been playing casters like the rest of the party, we would've fit far more in line with the party dynamic, even considering how bad the Healer is at healing in combat like is her shtick. If someone is in negatives but stable and half of the best you can do is only enough to get them to 1, you're not even close to counteracting the damage outputs of monsters at the level we're playing at.

And I can't just leave the group without coming up with something really good to explain myself with in order to get out without a huge fight because I'm in three other games with these people, including one with the same DM and he's my best friend. And he's actually been crashing on my couch about half the time we do run due to the way we run late and his living situation being several hours out of town so he can only come in occasionally.

But my options as far as working to come out to some kind of compromise appear to be getting narrower and narrower and so I ask for a bit of perspective from others because I am running out of time and patience and perspective of my own to try to come up with some solution that maximizes fun without either being a slave to the rules or screwing them all together.

[Akal Saris]

It kind of sounds like the Healer 4/Favored Soul 5 is the least of your worries in that game :smallconfused:

I'd just relax and assume that your character will likely die at some point b/c nobody else is serious about optimizing, and enjoy him while you can.

Alternatively, whip the fighter cohorts into shape and convince the healer to go Healer 5/combat medic 4, so at least she can sorta-kinda stay even with the damage being dealt.

[Endarire]

Cleric4/Crusader1/Ruby Knight VindicatorX sounds like a far better combat medic. Grab Divine Metamagic: Persistent Spell.

[Telok]

A unicorn is the equal of an 8th level cohort from the Leadership feat. So she can probably get a unicorn next level from just a single feat.

My suggestion, were I playing with this situation, would be to go and play a decent melee type. With the Leadership feat and your cohort being a straight heal-bot cleric optimized for defence. Being your cohort the heal-bot is there to keep you alive, and nothing else.

Tower shield, combat expertise, shield specialization, shield ward, and fighting defensively will top out AC. Use the second level spells for Resist Energy and everything else for healing and defence. Never going to hit anything with -9 to attack, but that wasn't the point anyway.

[Cieyrin]

A unicorn is the equal of an 8th level cohort from the Leadership feat. So she can probably get a unicorn next level from just a single feat.

My suggestion, were I playing with this situation, would be to go and play a decent melee type. With the Leadership feat and your cohort being a straight heal-bot cleric optimized for defence. Being your cohort the heal-bot is there to keep you alive, and nothing else.

Tower shield, combat expertise, shield specialization, shield ward, and fighting defensively will top out AC. Use the second level spells for Resist Energy and everything else for healing and defence. Never going to hit anything with -9 to attack, but that wasn't the point anyway.

That seems like a way to exasperate the problem, as he's just making a character that's better at what he does than the healer is.

I'd suggest just showing her the math of how much she is healing as opposed to what she could be healing via staying Healer and PrCing into a variety of other choices. Who knows, she may just like throwing out higher numbers with the likes of Master of Radiance and Combat Medic. Also point out that, by focusing on one spell list, she can finally be casting these spells she's hoarding the scroll and staff for. No one likes dying or being put on the spot for failing at their job and you're trying to help her pick up her slack, nothing wrong with that. Just come at the problem as helpful suggestions as opposed to "You're doing it wrong, n00b!" :smallwink:

EDIT: Oh, and I think the spell you're looking for for curing Confusion is either Healing Lorecall or Panacea.

[Rejakor]

I'd just literally go and explain how higher level spells are better and mention that if she retrained straight healer or straight favoured soul (don't mention the PrCs shinken talked about, at this point they will pretty much only confuse her) she'd be able to CAST heal by now which would be better for in combat healing etc etc.

If i'm underestimating the... difficulties, here, though, what you could try doing is mention that there is a PrC that would make her a lot better at healing in battles... for ease of use say 'Battle Medic' although you're going to want to mix in radiant servant of pelor and something that gives turn attempts... but that she'd have to get rid of either favoured soul OR healer in order to get it... then if she goes 'but i'd have more spells if' go 'you still get as many spells' (note; this is a lie. But it's a lie in a good cause, especially when you consider that 1 5th level spell is worth like 20, 30, 1st level spells) and then basically sit down and create the character with her/for her, and explain what all her stuff does until she's comfortable with it.

The first combat where she's healing whole healthbars and mooks are making will saves to try and hit her thanks to ubersanctuary, she'll like it. She may still think that her method was better, but she'll like the new one enough not to go back to the old one.

Also, if she goes favoured soul as her base, rejigger her spells so she can buff. Even a few things like Aid[/] or [i]Heroism make a healer archetype a lot more worthwhile, and buffs are inside the healer archetype, especially morale or positive energy style buffs.

Either that or roll up a caster yourself, since it sounds like part of your problem is that you're not super useful to the group as is.