Using Cantrips to break the game more

[Moose Man]

People keep saying it can be done, but how?

[HalfDragonCube]

Prestidigitation canheat somthing up by about 35F or something like that. Get a piece of Tungsten and cast the spell around 100 times. Now you have a fission candle that ignites the atmosphere.

[Hirax]

Fell drain + easy metamagic feat + sonic snap = negative level being delivered by a level 1 character with no attack roll, no save.

[TroubleBrewing]

Fell drain + easy metamagic feat + sonic snap = negative level being delivered by a level 1 character with no attack roll, no save.

This. This is why I love optimization.

Because that up there is as close as we get to effing alchemy.

[nedz]

Rogue/Sorceror or Scout/Sorceror using Acid Splash isn't game breaking, but it is a touch attack, no save, no SR for a number of dice.

[AslanCross]

Prestidigitation is pretty much a Wish spell at level 0. If you're creative enough with it (and your DM is lax enough) you can do incredibly silly things like the aforementioned fission candle. (Btw, how does a fission candle work exactly? Been trying to read up on it but I can't find anything on the Net.)

[TroubleBrewing]

Fission basics. (http://www.blurtit.com/q478606.html)

The bit where they talk about a "fission candle" effect is about halfway down the page, in the paragraph that begins "If you have ever tried to blow out a self-lighting birthday candle..."

[Lonely Tylenol]

See, combos like the Sonic Snap/Fell Drain combo are the type of things I wish I knew when I started playing with my Wizard at level 1 (granted, my Wizard was my first character, so that would have been unlikely.

Pretty much a one-shot-one-kill at level 1 (when you're fighting mostly level 1 enemies)... And Fell Drain doesn't stop being useful later, since even if you don't blast, spells like Enervation (which are extremely useful to have) still deal damage. Heck, I don't think a negative level as a level 1 spell EVER stops being useful.

[Moose Man]

Prestidigitation says it can lift one pound of material slowly, correct? Supercompress any material. It eventually becomes a tiny black hole. :smallbiggrin:

[ubergeek63]

well it is not a cantrip, but how about fell drain with thunderhead?

[maysarahs]

Can you combine with arcane thesis and use of +0 metamagics (invisible is a favorite) to bring it back to a cantrip? (I play Pathfinder, explaining my interest in this particular combo) If so, :belkar:

[TroubleBrewing]

I don't think so. You're already using one reducer to bring it back from a 2nd level spell to a 1st, but I could be mistaken on this.

This would be more a of a question for the FAQ by RAW thread.

[Divide by Zero]

Can you combine with arcane thesis and use of +0 metamagics (invisible is a favorite) to bring it back to a cantrip? (I play Pathfinder, explaining my interest in this particular combo) If so, :belkar:

By RAW, yes, although if you were using Easy Metamagic, it wouldn't matter since it would already be a +0 adjustment.

[Lonely Tylenol]

I don't think so. You're already using one reducer to bring it back from a 2nd level spell to a 1st, but I could be mistaken on this.

This would be more a of a question for the FAQ by RAW thread.

You should be able to. Arcane Thesis (and many other metamagic reducers) stack whenever applicable. The only restriction on Arcane Thesis is that the spell cannot be reduced to below its original level.

With this in mind, you CAN have an Arcane Thesis'd, Easy Metamagicked, Fell Drained Sonic Snap as a cantrip, which can be awesome if your DM has house rules about cantrips (like unlimited use and whatnot); otherwise, it's a three-feat investment which you can't get until level 3 at the earliest, when it stops being an instant kill (as monsters with more than 1 HD aren't going to drop to level 0 without multiple uses). Also, unless you find practical, mid- or late- game applications for Sonic Snap, the Arcane Thesis (Sonic Snap) feat will be wasted.

[TroubleBrewing]

Well, then I stand corrected!

Learn something new every day. :elan:

[big teej]

not to derail, but I must ask...

what book is "fell drain" out of?

I'm rolling a wizard so this thread is of great interest to me.

[TroubleBrewing]

Libris Mortis or Heroes of Horror.

I'm AFB ATM, so... *shrug*

[holywhippet]

Libris Mortis

[Lamech]

Create a small amount of something edible with prestidigitation, and put it in someones food. (Water should work.) In an hour it will be absorbed into their cells, and hopefully DNA. Especially things that get misplaced easily like the protons and electrons. It goes away creating a ton of radicals, breaking bonds whatever; like big dose of radiation.
And no the "no damage shouldn't apply because prestidigitation does no damage. Its the lack of it that does the damage.

[TroubleBrewing]

See, as great as it would be to give someone cancer with a cantrip, the game doesn't support rules for this. Otherwise, "Create Food and Water" would be the deadliest spell known to man. :smalltongue:

[Fineous Orlon]

Fission basics. (http://www.blurtit.com/q478606.html)

The bit where they talk about a "fission candle" effect is about halfway down the page, in the paragraph that begins "If you have ever tried to blow out a self-lighting birthday candle..."

That page is really poorly edited as to spelling and technical content. Using it as an informative source for nuclear reactions or accurate history would be a bad choice.

Tungsten forming a fission candle is not particularly well explained by that page, but may be better explained by mentioning that Tungsten has the second highest melting point of any element, implying that it can be heated hot enough [before it melts] that it would ignite many things that may be in close proximity. Should the atmosphere ignite around Tungsten hot enough to be incandescent, certainly a circulating air cell might form to feed fresh air to the tungsten rapidly.

A better fission candle explanation would be nice.

[Tvtyrant]

If you fell drained goblins to death wouldn't they come back as much more dangerous Wights? Doesn't seem like a good idea to me...

[Lonely Tylenol]

not to derail, but I must ask...

what book is "fell drain" out of?

I'm rolling a wizard so this thread is of great interest to me.

Confirming that it's Libris Mortis, along with the other Fell metamagics, which, frankly, aren't as good. Fell Frighten gives the target the Shaken condition for one minute, which is abhorrent when you consider that it bumps it up by the same amount as Fell Drain, which is that much better. Fell Weaken might have been better if it stacked, and if you can convince your DM that it should, more power to you, because an Arcane Thesis'd anything gets Fell Weaken for zero spell levels and allows Split Ray/Twin Spell abuse, which I guess is precisely why it doesn't stack.

Fell Animate is interesting... It's horribly situational, since it requires a spell to kill, but if you metamagic out Enervate or something, and can fit this in the arrangement, you can deal enough negative levels to kill almost anything, and in the process create an undead which you can (presumably) put under your command. The only problem with this is that the feat investment is so huge, you're probably not playing a necromancer class, and aren't going to get away with much... But if you can pick it up as a rod, why not?

Just remember that Easy Metamagicked, Fell Drained Sonic Snap is only good because you get it at level 1, and don't have to devote feats just to Sonic Snap. By levels 3-5, you should be moving on to bigger and better things... Like Easy Metamagicked, Fell Drained everything else.

[Coidzor]

If you fell drained goblins to death wouldn't they come back as much more dangerous Wights? Doesn't seem like a good idea to me...

Can't be a wight without a head. :smallamused:


Fell Animate is interesting... It's horribly situational, since it requires a spell to kill, but if you metamagic out Enervate or something, and can fit this in the arrangement, you can deal enough negative levels to kill almost anything, and in the process create an undead which you can (presumably) put under your command. The only problem with this is that the feat investment is so huge, you're probably not playing a necromancer class, and aren't going to get away with much... But if you can pick it up as a rod, why not?

Also, creates zombies which are pretty lackluster. But as said, hey if you can get a rod, cheap as free minions. :smallbiggrin: Though the Azun-Gund(Sunless Citadel)/Nightcaller's Whistle(Libris Mortis) might be cheaper and give more mileage than a rod of fell animate anyway...

Depending upon whether you encounter big critters that'd be good as zombies or would use 'em as traps anyway... And possibly whether you have someone with the command undead spell like a party wizard...

[Lonely Tylenol]

Also, creates zombies which are pretty lackluster. But as said, hey if you can get a rod, cheap as free minions. :smallbiggrin: Though the Azun-Gund(Sunless Citadel)/Nightcaller's Whistle(Libris Mortis) might be cheaper and give more mileage than a rod of fell animate anyway...

Depending upon whether you encounter big critters that'd be good as zombies or would use 'em as traps anyway... And possibly whether you have someone with the command undead spell like a party wizard...

Well, if you're a True Necromancer (Libris Mortis), which is a decent enough path for a Wizard to take, or a Dread Necromancer (Heroes of Horror), you can rebuke and command undead of your own volition. If you're a Dread Necromancer, you can also command a ton of undead--the Summon Undead spells don't count toward the HD limit that the Dread Necromancer can create from his own abilities... And neither do Fell Animated undead, as far as I know. What this means is that you can create a veritable army of the walking dead at your disposal.

So, Fell Animate: Good for dedicated necromancers, "meh" otherwise.

[Moose Man]

See, as great as it would be to give someone cancer with a cantrip, the game doesn't support rules for this. Otherwise, "Create Food and Water" would be the deadliest spell known to man. :smalltongue:Sigging this, to awesome to ignore.

[Dusk Eclipse]

Well, if you're a True Necromancer (Libris Mortis), which is a decent enough path for a Wizard to take, or a Dread Necromancer (Heroes of Horror), you can rebuke and command undead of your own volition. If you're a Dread Necromancer, you can also command a ton of undead--the Summon Undead spells don't count toward the HD limit that the Dread Necromancer can create from his own abilities... And neither do Fell Animated undead, as far as I know. What this means is that you can create a veritable army of the walking dead at your disposal.

So, Fell Animate: Good for dedicated necromancers, "meh" otherwise.

Dude, you are burning... at least 4 (early entry shenanigans) levels of Wizard (or Cleric) casting, plus the Death domain you get is extremely redundant and the only good class feature is the Desecration Aura, which you can get as a ring. So no, True Necromancer is not good for a Necromancer.

AFAIK the consensus is that Cleric Necromancer: Big Powerful Minions which are buffed to Baator and back

Dread Necromancer: Gigantic Hordes of undead minions

Wizard Necromancer: Mister Negative (AKA as the Debuffer)

[Makiru]

I've never heard of Easy Metamagic before. Where is that feat located?

[Hirax]

Dragon Magazine. It's regarded as pretty cheesy, basically take a metamagic feat which raises spell level by at least 2, and reduce the adjusted spell level by 1. So you can't use it on metamagic that only ups spell level by 1.

[Coidzor]

I've never heard of Easy Metamagic before. Where is that feat located?

Dragon Magazine... 325, was it? :smallconfused:


Dread Necromancer: Gigantic Hordes of undead minions

Wizard Necromancer: Mister Negative (AKA as the Debuffer)

Also, Animate Dread Warrior so that the bosses you kill become your butler. Preferably with spell-stitching, but, that's another kettle of fish...

[awa]

most prestidigitation abuse are like the cancer giving food it doesn't work unless your dm willingly lets you use a selective applications of real world physics to get the desired effect.

"Prestidigitations are minor tricks that novice spellcasters use for practice. Once cast, a prestidigitation spell enables you to perform simple magical effects for 1 hour. The effects are minor and have severe limitations. A prestidigitation can slowly lift 1 pound of material. It can color, clean, or soil items in a 1-foot cube each round. It can chill, warm, or flavor 1 pound of nonliving material. It cannot deal damage or affect the concentration of spellcasters. Prestidigitation can create small objects, but they look crude and artificial. The materials created by a prestidigitation spell are extremely fragile, and they cannot be used as tools, weapons, or spell components. Finally, a prestidigitation lacks the power to duplicate any other spell effects. Any actual change to an object (beyond just moving, cleaning, or soiling it) persists only 1 hour"

nothing here saying you can repeatedly heat something to massive levels by repeat castings. that material doesn't exist in dnd unless your dm says so, and if you heat something that much it would do damage so it's out of the question right there

[Tyndmyr]

Can you combine with arcane thesis and use of +0 metamagics (invisible is a favorite) to bring it back to a cantrip? (I play Pathfinder, explaining my interest in this particular combo) If so, :belkar:

Negative, errata for arcane thesis explicitly forbids this.

[Axinian]

Also, Animate Dread Warrior so that the bosses you kill become your butler. Preferably with spell-stitching, but, that's another kettle of fish...
See, this is why all bosses should explode!

[The Rabbler]

Negative, errata for arcane thesis explicitly forbids this.

I thought you were allowed to reduce the effective spell level to +0 if you combined a +2 metamagic and a +0 metamagic on your thesis'd spell. By my understanding, you get a total of +2 effective spell level from your metamagics and subtract 2 because there are two metamagics being used.

so 0+(2+2(-1))=0

[Ruinix]

sonic snap + fell drain don't work on mid level and foward, it has SR, so just at low level is ok.

[Mr.Smashy]

My favorite is coloring and flavoring Aboleth Mucous/ Poison as turtle soup a la Prestidigitation.

Costs all of 20 gold.

[Seerow]

sonic snap + fell drain don't work on mid level and foward, it has SR, so just at low level is ok.

SR can be relatively easily overcome, even without SR (No) spells. It's just a matter of pumping up that caster level.

[Lonely Tylenol]

Dude, you are burning... at least 4 (early entry shenanigans) levels of Wizard (or Cleric) casting, plus the Death domain you get is extremely redundant and the only good class feature is the Desecration Aura, which you can get as a ring. So no, True Necromancer is not good for a Necromancer.

AFAIK the consensus is that Cleric Necromancer: Big Powerful Minions which are buffed to Baator and back

Dread Necromancer: Gigantic Hordes of undead minions

Wizard Necromancer: Mister Negative (AKA as the Debuffer)

For the purposes of using Fell Animate on a Wizard (or period), creating the undead is pointless unless you can command them, and without multiclassing into something that rebukes (Cleric or Dread Necromancer), and if you're making a substantial dip into Cleric to command undead as a Wizard, True Necromancer is a natural progression.

Frankly, if I wanted a Wizard necromancer, I would go the debuff-happy route, mostly because Incantatrix is so easy to PrC into that it's not even funny (you just have to do things that an effective debuffer would have to do anyway), and then you will eventually get access to Empowered, Maximized, Split Ray, Fell Drained, Twinned Enervations (with Arcane Thesis and some negative metamagic modifiers to back it up), which the four metamagic feats granted from Incantatrix progression get you pretty quickly. What's more, most low-level Necromantic debuffs (like Ray of Enfeeblement, Ray of Exhaustion, Ray of Weakness) or debuffs from other schools (Enchanter's Ray of Stupidity and Sting Ray) can also be Split Ray'd, so you can basically pick your poison (neutralize weak things through STR penalty, neutralize stupid things through INT damage, neutralize everything else with negative levels). Then again, I'm an Incantatrix fanboy.

If I wanted to actually go Necromancer, though, I'd make a Dread Necromancer, just because I love hordes of souped-up undead so much that everybody with a weak PC stopped playing Diablo II with me years ago.

But for the purposes of Fell Animate, True Necromancer trumps straight Wizard, because True Necromancer picks up something along the way that lets you command your new playthings.


Negative, errata for arcane thesis explicitly forbids this.


I thought you were allowed to reduce the effective spell level to +0 if you combined a +2 metamagic and a +0 metamagic on your thesis'd spell. By my understanding, you get a total of +2 effective spell level from your metamagics and subtract 2 because there are two metamagics being used.

so 0+(2+2(-1))=0

I'm pretty sure it's this. What the errata does expressly forbid, as I recall, is using this trick to turn a level 1 spell into a cantrip (in other words, as long as the net level isn't negative, you can cast normally).

[Coidzor]

For the purposes of using Fell Animate on a Wizard (or period), creating the undead is pointless unless you can command them

You do control the undead you create with Fell Animate as long as you don't go over your HD cap and even then, you just lose earlier created undead, since it uses the same mechanic and control pool as the animate dead spell.

[Lonely Tylenol]

You do control the undead you create with Fell Animate as long as you don't go over your HD cap and even then, you just lose earlier created undead, since it uses the same mechanic and control pool as the animate dead spell.

I just re-checked the feat, and you're right. Disregard; I suck.

[Draz74]

The classic game-breaking abuse with cantrips is to use the Launch Bolt cantrip with Colossal-sized bolts.

[ubergeek63]

The classic game-breaking abuse with cantrips is to use the Launch Bolt cantrip with Colossal-sized bolts.

a thoughtful DM can counter that easily.

4 size category difference = -8 to hit

216lbs for a quiver of 10 bolts

full round action to "load" your hand with a 20lb crossbow bolt

that does not sound practical or game breaking ... particularly when you are talking about a weakling wizard whose heavy load capacity is likely to be under 150lbs!

A generous DM might let a creative player get away with casting enlarge weapon 4 times on a quiver to help most of that, but that is seriously bending the rules since that is for melee weapons. Not a serious problem since it burns 4 rounds of a 1 round per lvl spell duration and immobilizes the caster for the duration.

[Tyndmyr]

I thought you were allowed to reduce the effective spell level to +0 if you combined a +2 metamagic and a +0 metamagic on your thesis'd spell. By my understanding, you get a total of +2 effective spell level from your metamagics and subtract 2 because there are two metamagics being used.

so 0+(2+2(-1))=0

That you can do. But, someone mentioned preparing a spell in a slot lower than it's original level. AT can't do that. In fact, significant shenanigans are required to pull that off, generally. Not a lot of cantrips out there in total, so even the usual method of finding a partial caster list with spells slotted lower than normal isn't that helpful.

[Benly]

Fell Animate is interesting... It's horribly situational, since it requires a spell to kill, but if you metamagic out Enervate or something, and can fit this in the arrangement, you can deal enough negative levels to kill almost anything, and in the process create an undead which you can (presumably) put under your command. The only problem with this is that the feat investment is so huge, you're probably not playing a necromancer class, and aren't going to get away with much... But if you can pick it up as a rod, why not?

The feat investment doesn't have to be huge. The thing is, you're thinking in the wrong direction with Fell Animate by putting it on Enervate. Instead, put it on Acid Splash.

When your party drops an enemy with damage, is that enemy always dead? Frequently, it'll be knocked into the negatives and left unconscious to bleed while the PCs move on to the next enemy. Coup de grace the enemy with a Fell Animating Acid Splash. You've spent a lower-level slot than you would've for Animate Dead, gotten the same zombie, didn't spend a material component and the only down sides are that you have a narrow window to use it and you can't make a skeleton instead. One feat for cost-free undead is a pretty good deal in the right campaign.

Chill Touch is also good for this, especially for dread necromancers who don't get cantrips. Kelgore's Grave Mist (PHB2) deserves some mention as well, as a large-AoE ongoing-damage spell, and one dread necromancers can get to boot; basically anyone you chop down into the negatives in its area of effect is likely to be finished off by it and zombified under your control immediately.

A situation of special note is the illumian dread necromancer. A second-level illumian with the right sigils gets a Divine Metamagic-like ability to convert turning/rebuking attempts into metamagic twice per day. Since dread necromancers have rebuking ability, they can cast a fell animating chill touch starting at level 2 and start getting zombies much earlier than just about anyone else except incarnates. Again one feat investment, although in this case it also determines your race pick.

[HalfDragonCube]

a thoughtful DM can counter that easily.

4 size category difference = -8 to hit

216lbs for a quiver of 10 bolts

full round action to "load" your hand with a 20lb crossbow bolt

that does not sound practical or game breaking ... particularly when you are talking about a weakling wizard whose heavy load capacity is likely to be under 150lbs!

A generous DM might let a creative player get away with casting enlarge weapon 4 times on a quiver to help most of that, but that is seriously bending the rules since that is for melee weapons. Not a serious problem since it burns 4 rounds of a 1 round per lvl spell duration and immobilizes the caster for the duration.

I'm not sure those penalties apply. Dunno, though.

A maximum capacity of 150lbs means they have a Str score of 13. Far too much for a non-gishy spellcaster. A decent Wizard has Str 6 if you use point buy.

[ubergeek63]

I'm not sure those penalties apply. Dunno, though.

A maximum capacity of 150lbs means they have a Str score of 13. Far too much for a non-gishy spellcaster. A decent Wizard has Str 6 if you use point buy.

"causing it to fly at a target of your choice as if you had fired it from a light crossbow ... or feats you possess (such as Point Blank Shot, Weapon Focus [light crossbow], and so on) apply."

therefore, if you are allowed to "fire" a colossal bolt, it would be as if fired from a colossal crossbow.

[HalfDragonCube]

"causing it to fly at a target of your choice as if you had fired it from a light crossbow ... or feats you possess (such as Point Blank Shot, Weapon Focus [light crossbow], and so on) apply."

therefore, if you are allowed to "fire" a colossal bolt, it would be as if fired from a colossal crossbow.

Awesome! Time to bug my DM to let me get it so the one-shotting can begin.

[Lonely Tylenol]

The feat investment doesn't have to be huge. The thing is, you're thinking in the wrong direction with Fell Animate by putting it on Enervate. Instead, put it on Acid Splash.

When your party drops an enemy with damage, is that enemy always dead? Frequently, it'll be knocked into the negatives and left unconscious to bleed while the PCs move on to the next enemy. Coup de grace the enemy with a Fell Animating Acid Splash. You've spent a lower-level slot than you would've for Animate Dead, gotten the same zombie, didn't spend a material component and the only down sides are that you have a narrow window to use it and you can't make a skeleton instead. One feat for cost-free undead is a pretty good deal in the right campaign.

Chill Touch is also good for this, especially for dread necromancers who don't get cantrips. Kelgore's Grave Mist (PHB2) deserves some mention as well, as a large-AoE ongoing-damage spell, and one dread necromancers can get to boot; basically anyone you chop down into the negatives in its area of effect is likely to be finished off by it and zombified under your control immediately.

A situation of special note is the illumian dread necromancer. A second-level illumian with the right sigils gets a Divine Metamagic-like ability to convert turning/rebuking attempts into metamagic twice per day. Since dread necromancers have rebuking ability, they can cast a fell animating chill touch starting at level 2 and start getting zombies much earlier than just about anyone else except incarnates. Again one feat investment, although in this case it also determines your race pick.

I was thinking more from the perspective of "Arcane Thesis + other metamagic shenanigans on Enervation (like Incantatrix or Dwoemerkeeper 10) to create a Heightened, Empowered, Twinned, Split Ray, Fell Drained (plus mitigating modifiers like Invisible) Enervation to take out the two biggest, baddest looking things in the room in one fell swoop (get it? fell?), then turning them on the rest of your enemy group in the same combat."

I'm not going to lie--Fell Animate on cantrips isn't where my mind went with this, and it's a creative (and less intensive) way to use it, which is great. Acid Splash also has better long-term applications (because you're not blowing your biggest spell on it, or waiting until level eleventy to get it off), though I've known too many prime targets to fall to the wayside because the Barbarian in full rage x3 crits with a Power Attack on the 3HP Dire Bear and craters its skull in. Sometimes there is no "dying", just "dead, holy cow is it dead".

That isn't to say the both can't coexist, either--even without metamagic modifiers, Fell Animate is available on cantrips at level 5, before you even get Enervation (let alone before you can perform metamagic shenanigans with it), or even level 3 if you Easy Megamatic it, so you can start using Acid Splash early, keep it through the late levels (for those "crimes of opportunity" where you can coup-de-grace a dying foe with it), and also use cheesed-out Enervation for the enemy you just don't want falling to the wayside. No extra feat investment, no conflict with spell slots... And a whole lot of undead monsters at your disposal.

[Benly]

I'm not going to lie--Fell Animate on cantrips isn't where my mind went with this, and it's a creative (and less intensive) way to use it, which is great. Acid Splash also has better long-term applications (because you're not blowing your biggest spell on it, or waiting until level eleventy to get it off), though I've known too many prime targets to fall to the wayside because the Barbarian in full rage x3 crits with a Power Attack on the 3HP Dire Bear and craters its skull in. Sometimes there is no "dying", just "dead, holy cow is it dead".


That's when you sigh, bite the bullet, and pull out the black onyx. :smallsmile:

Anyhow, yeah, if you're already pulling metamagic shenanigans on Enervation and you've got Fell Animate sitting around, then heck, why not?

[ubergeek63]

Awesome! Time to bug my DM to let me get it so the one-shotting can begin.

lol ... the point was -8 to hit and "reload time" of over a round for a weapon you could not carry with you.

colossal is 6x larger in each direction and 216 times the weight. a quiver of 10 bolts would weigh 216lbs. each bolt would be 6 feet long, 2 inches thick, and weigh 20lbs!

now your wizard probably can only carry 100lbs as a heavy load.

[Axinian]

now your wizard probably can only carry 100lbs as a heavy load.
Bag of Holding?

[Seatbelt]

I always thought launch bolt was a terrible spell. I could prepare this spell that lets me fire a crossbow. Or I could buy a crossbow.

[TroubleBrewing]

Bag of Holding?

Nah. Party Fighter. Cheaper and easier to replace.

Slightly harder to steal.

[ubergeek63]

Bag of Holding?

which helps with the weight and size, but not speed and weapon penalties

[ubergeek63]

I always thought launch bolt was a terrible spell. I could prepare this spell that lets me fire a crossbow. Or I could buy a crossbow.

it doesn't let you fire a crossbow - it replaces the crossbow.

i saves a move action to equip the bow and the clumsy, fragile 4lb weapon getting in your way. a move action to equip and a move action to load before you can fire a single shot compared to a free action to draw out a bolt for a cantrip "weapon" - seems decent to me.

[Feytalist]

Not quite game-breaking, but I only recently realised how useful that stupid little message spell is... Perfect for stealth/scouting missions. Decent range, decent duration, it's like a magic walkie-talkie. Your party need never be separated again.

[Axinian]

Slightly harder to steal.
But oh so much more rewarding when you do.

[Draz74]

Not quite game-breaking, but I only recently realised how useful that stupid little message spell is... Perfect for stealth/scouting missions. Decent range, decent duration, it's like a magic walkie-talkie. Your party need never be separated again.

QFT. I consider Message the most useful Cantrip after Prestidigitation and Detect Magic. I've never understood why it doesn't generally get much attention.

[ubergeek63]

But oh so much more rewarding when you do.

that depends on the fighter's gender ;)

[HalfDragonCube]

Nah. Party Fighter. Cheaper and easier to replace.

Slightly harder to steal.

But a bag of holding would look awesomer. You can tell someone is a tier 1 class when they cast a spell and a crossbow bolt flies at deadly speed out of a bag that could not possibly contain it.


that depends on the fighter's gender ;)

Eww... Just stick an immovable rod in the bag of holding and call it a day.

Immovable rods: the solution to any problem. Such as need to discipline fighters. And anyone else.

[Infernalbargain]

Prestidigitation says it can lift one pound of material slowly, correct? Supercompress any material. It eventually becomes a tiny black hole. :smallbiggrin:

No. That merely means it can exert 1 pound of force. The force required to increase the internal energy will greatly exceed 1 pound well before it turns into a black hole [/physics]

[Moose Man]

No, two opposing forces of one pound. Provided you can cast it a large number of times, like with a ring of prestidigitation, you can get the amount of compressed substance to fuse (nuclear fusion). Not quite a black hole, but if you can have hundreds of thousands of solars casting one epic spell, I'm pretty sure you can get a bunch of sorcerers/wizards/UMD abusers to cast it with you.

[Infernalbargain]

No, two opposing forces of one pound. Provided you can cast it a large number of times, like with a ring of prestidigitation, you can get the amount of compressed substance to fuse (nuclear fusion). Not quite a black hole, but if you can have hundreds of thousands of solars casting one epic spell, I'm pretty sure you can get a bunch of sorcerers/wizards/UMD abusers to cast it with you.

Yeah, still not gonna do anything, unless you're stacking them. Since they last 1 hour, you can get a maximum of 600 pounds of force per person this way which is far, far, far away from what you need to get anything interesting. That's like claiming black holes are gonna form by stacking a pair of cars on top of each other. To give you an idea of the numbers involved in making black holes:
As a first order approximation, let us suppose that the coulombic force is the dominant force supporting up a pair of electrons from falling inside their schwarzchild radius and forming a black hole. You'd need about 10^107 prestidigitations to make a pair of electrons collapse. Good luck with that.

[Marnath]

Yeah, still not gonna do anything, unless you're stacking them. Since they last 1 hour, you can get a maximum of 600 pounds of force per person this way which is far, far, far away from what you need to get anything interesting. That's like claiming black holes are gonna form by stacking a pair of cars on top of each other. To give you an idea of the numbers involved in making black holes:
As a first order approximation, let us suppose that the coulombic force is the dominant force supporting up a pair of electrons from falling inside their schwarzchild radius and forming a black hole. You'd need about 10^107 prestidigitations to make a pair of electrons collapse. Good luck with that.

Oh my god, the poor catgirls! There's gore everywhere!! :eek:

[Infernalbargain]

Oh my god, the poor catgirls! There's gore everywhere!! :eek:

FEAR MY POWER OF MATHZ!!! FEAR ME!!!

[Moose Man]

Technically speaking, planeshift can get you to the Endless Plane of People Who have prestidigitation at-will and are willing to help strangers. 10^107 people is easy to achieve.
I also said it's possible, not probable.

[Infernalbargain]

Technically speaking, planeshift can get you to the Endless Plane of People Who have prestidigitation at-will and are willing to help strangers. 10^107 people is easy to achieve.
I also said it's possible, not probable.

Prest has a range of 10 ft. good luck getting 10^107 people within a 10 ft. radius within an hour.

[Siosilvar]

Prest has a range of 10 ft. good luck getting 10^107 people within a 10 ft. radius within an hour.

Permissive readings of Grapple.

That is, you grapple four people. Each of those grapples you and three others. And so on. You don't need to get them there in an hour, just have them all be there for an hour.

Everybody voluntarily fails the grapple check to oppose other castings of prestidigitation.

[Moose Man]

O_o ... Catgirls ... all gone ...

EDIT: Hey, with all the mass of the people in a five foot square, that could possibly create a black hole, because volume almost doesn't exist in D&D.

[Infernalbargain]

Permissive readings of Grapple.

That is, you grapple four people. Each of those grapples you and three others. And so on. You don't need to get them there in an hour, just have them all be there for an hour.

Everybody voluntarily fails the grapple check to oppose other castings of prestidigitation.

Actually just getting ~10^26 people within a 10 ft. radius will cause all the people to collapse into a black hole.

[HalfDragonCube]

Wouldn't they all be dead if it is an endless plane of people who have Presti at-will and are willing to help strangers? After all, you can'y have been the first person to think of making a black hole with them.

Also, food?

[Jjeinn-tae]

Wouldn't they all be dead if it is an endless plane of people who have Presti at-will and are willing to help strangers? After all, you can'y have been the first person to think of making a black hole with them.

Also, food?

Prestidigitation can make anything taste like whatever you want. There are endless amounts of them...

[HalfDragonCube]

Prestidigitation can make anything taste like whatever you want. There are endless amounts of them...

Great, so now they all taste nice.

The at-will prestidigitation cannibalistic people of the endless plane of at-will prestidigitation cannibalistic people.

[Jjeinn-tae]

Great, so now they all taste nice.

The at-will prestidigitation cannibalistic people of the endless plane of at-will prestidigitation cannibalistic people.

They are quite helpful people though, it's just that those arms weigh so much. They're only trying to lighten the load you see.

[Moose Man]

Hey, you're scaring the kids...
Munch

[NineThePuma]

*steals the Fell Animate Sonic Snap*

[HalfDragonCube]

They are quite helpful people though, it's just that those arms weigh so much. They're only trying to lighten the load you see.

Since the plane is infinite anyway, and it is crammed full of these people, then surely they would all be crushed against one another?:smalleek:

A plane of helpful people that float in an infinitely deep sea of their brethren's crushed bodies.:smalleek:

Mmm... People jam...:smallamused:

[Moose Man]

There's Infinite space, occupied by infinite people. Infinity-N=infinity. Even if that N=Infinity

[Siosilvar]

Actually just getting ~10^26 people within a 10 ft. radius will cause all the people to collapse into a black hole.
Mission accomplised.


There's Infinite space, occupied by infinite people. Infinity-N=infinity. Even if that N=Infinity
Actually, that one depends on which infinity is bigger. Either way, you still end up with an infinity, even if it isn't the same one.

But what you should be looking at is (mass)/(volume), and L'Hôpital tells me that would approach 0 as you near infinite quantities of both, if only because mass is one variable and volume is three (each length).

[NNescio]

Well, there's always the good old Hotel Paradox... (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hilbert%27s_paradox_of_the_Grand_Hotel)

(Set theory is rather rigorous, even if it often appears to defy common sense.)

[Divide by Zero]

Actually, that one depends on which infinity is bigger. Either way, you still end up with an infinity, even if it isn't the same one.

It's been a while since I did any of this, but wouldn't they both be aleph-null? I thought the higher orders only applied to sets.

[NNescio]

It's been a while since I did any of this, but wouldn't they both be aleph-null? I thought the higher orders only applied to sets.

Infinite people is aleph-naught. Infinite space (or infinite points on an n-dimensional space for any arbitrary n) is aleph-one.

[Divide by Zero]

Infinite people is aleph-naught. Infinite space (or infinite points on an n-dimensional space for any arbitrary n) is aleph-one.

Ah yeah, now I remember how that works. So he was right, but for the wrong reason.

[kardar233]

GitP: The only place where D&D and Cantorian Set Theory combine. Also a place of madness, and small fairy cakes.

[Geigan]

GitP: The only place where D&D and Cantorian Set Theory combine. Also a place of madness, and small fairy cakes.

Don't forget catgirls. Lots of dead catgirls.

[NNescio]

Ah yeah, now I remember how that works. So he was right, but for the wrong reason.

Yeah. Also, he was trying to use L'Hopital's rule for a multivariable function... (m/ℓ3 instead of x/x3) which doesn't really apply without first jumping through a lot of hoops.


GitP: The only place where D&D and Cantorian Set Theory combine. Also a place of madness, and small fairy cakes.

Blame the fluff authors for throwing around the word "infinite" nilly-willy. :smallbiggrin:

Mind if I sig this though?

[Moose Man]

which doesn't really apply without first jumping through a lot of hoops.Leap, Leap, Leap

[kardar233]

Blame the fluff authors for throwing around the word "infinite" nilly-willy. :smallbiggrin:

Mind if I sig this though?

Not at all.

In fact, that's the first time I've been sigged. Ever. Awesome. :smallbiggrin:

[NecroRick]

Prestidigitation canheat somthing up by about 35F or something like that. Get a piece of Tungsten and cast the spell around 100 times. Now you have a fission candle that ignites the atmosphere.

Prestididgation can't cause harm. 60 degrees celsius is enough to burn (or start breaking proteins or whatever). Therefore, you cannot make anything hotter than say mid 50c with it.

(approx 130 fahrenheit is the maximum)

[HalfDragonCube]

GitP: The only place where D&D and Cantorian Set Theory combine. Also a place of madness, and small fairy cakes.

Funny how those seem to coincide...

[Benly]

Prestididgation can't cause harm. 60 degrees celsius is enough to burn (or start breaking proteins or whatever). Therefore, you cannot make anything hotter than say mid 50c with it.

(approx 130 fahrenheit is the maximum)

You can as long as it's not harming something that the arcane forces of the universe recognize as a creature. For example, you can probably grill a steak with it just fine.

[HalfDragonCube]

You can as long as it's not harming something that the arcane forces of the universe recognize as a creature. For example, you can probably grill a steak with it just fine.

Or that it causes something that the arcane forces of the universe recognises as an attack roll.

:smalltongue::smallbiggrin:

[Amechra]

I seem to remember the way the Launch Bolt spell worked was by grabbing Eschew Materials.

Since the crossbow bolt is actually both focus and material component...

[HalfDragonCube]

I seem to remember the way the Launch Bolt spell worked was by grabbing Eschew Materials.

Since the crossbow bolt is actually both focus and material component...

So now the spell is pretty much a free crossbow.

[Amridell]

Mage hand. Coronary. 'Nuff said.

[TroubleBrewing]

Mage hand. Coronary. 'Nuff said.

Need LoS for that, or at very least LoE.

Also, I'm pretty sure there's a line in one of the core books that specifically disallows this kind of thing.

Good thought, though.

[Elrihm]

Hey, it's not a cantrip, but would magic missile count individually on fell drain? An arcane thesis, easy metamagic fell drain on that would be....ridiculous if it dealt individual negative levels, that scales.

[TroubleBrewing]

Sadly, no. Magic Missle is a volley attack, which only counts effects once. (Otherwise, it'd be broken with Sneak Attack, too!)

[Coidzor]

Sadly, no. Magic Missle is a volley attack, which only counts effects once. (Otherwise, it'd be broken with Sneak Attack, too!)

Magic Missile doesn't have an attack roll, so sneak attack damage can't apply, I had thought.

[Flame of Anor]

that depends on the fighter's gender ;)
Eww... Just stick an immovable rod in the bag of holding and call it a day.

Immovable rods: the solution to any problem. Such as need to discipline fighters. And anyone else.

Miko already had one stuck in (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0223.html), but it just turned her into Miko the Fighter-without-bonus-feats.

[Elrihm]

Magic Missile doesn't have an attack roll, so sneak attack damage can't apply, I had thought.

Agreed, sneak attack has to be made with an attack roll. My question though is in the fact that you can target five different people with magic missile, creating five targets for fell drain and 5 negative levels. if they dont stack on to one character, then that makes no sense. where do they go if they dont?

[NineThePuma]

Agreed, sneak attack has to be made with an attack roll. My question though is in the fact that you can target five different people with magic missile, creating five targets for fell drain and 5 negative levels. if they dont stack on to one character, then that makes no sense. where do they go if they dont?

Yes, this is what happens.

[Elrihm]

Do you mean yes, the negative levels stack, or yes they dont stack?

[NineThePuma]

They do not stack on a single target, but you can spread them out.

It's the wording of Fell Drain that does it.

Sort of like how Duskblades can't channel a touch spell into the same target more than once on a full attack.

[Gullintanni]

Hey, it's not a cantrip, but would magic missile count individually on fell drain? An arcane thesis, easy metamagic fell drain on that would be....ridiculous if it dealt individual negative levels, that scales.

The most optimized you can get on Magic Missile + Fell Drain is awarding negative levels to multiple targets. The way Fell Drain is worded, only the first instance of a spell causing damage causes level drain. Still, 1 negative level for five enemies from a level 2 spell slot isn't bad.

[RCgothic]

On the subject of prestidigitation, even if you could collapse 1lb of material into a black hole, it still wouldn't exert any more of a gravitational pull than 1lb of material would. You could also move it around as 1lb of material.

At best it would make an extremely dense and practically unstoppable/immovable yet utterlynanoscopic particle. It would have less of an effect than running someone through with a single carbon nanotube. The target wouldn't even feel it.

[Flame of Anor]

On the subject of prestidigitation, even if you could collapse 1lb of material into a black hole, it still wouldn't exert any more of a gravitational pull than 1lb of material would. You could also move it around as 1lb of material.

At best it would make an extremely dense and practically unstoppable/immovable yet utterlynanoscopic particle. It would have less of an effect than running someone through with a single carbon nanotube. The target wouldn't even feel it.

If you held it in someone it would eventually suck them up.

[NNescio]

So, miniature Sphere of Annihilation?

[Divide by Zero]

If you held it in someone it would eventually suck them up.

Debatable. The Schwarzschild radius of a 1-pound mass would be tiny, so it'd take a long time to do any relevant damage, and as soon as the sustaining spell ended, it would dissipate almost instantaneously.

[QuidEst]

If you held it in someone it would eventually suck them up.
Nope- sorry. Gravity increases inverse to the square of distance. Fortunately for us, very few things are point masses. Everything behaves like a black hole gravitationally- provided you're outside the volume. (If our sun mysteriously collapsed into a black hole, there wouldn't by any gravitational difference to the planets.) Black holes act like point masses, though. You can get closer and closer and closer, and every time you halve the distance, you get four times the gravitational pull.

Back to the one-pound mass. Outside of the volume of the mass, there's no difference. Go half way to the center, it pulls as much as a four pound mass would if you were at the surface of the original volume. Half way again, 16 pounds… 64, 256, and so on. But say you were standing next to a very, very heavy weight- tons and tons. You still wouldn't notice the attraction. Now, if you shrank it down far enough, yes, almost infinitely close it could give you black hole effects I suppose. At worst, that sucks up some molecules, maybe a cell or two, I don't know. But that's just going to clear an empty space. (It would have to suck up a full pound of matter to even double its gravity, so you're not going to get a cool runaway matter-eating black hole that keeps growing.) Game-mechanics-wise, once somebody has to start rolling for damage, I think the spell runs into problems.

The other part of this is that (so far as I understand it) black holes aren't stable in the long run. For full-size black holes, it's a pretty long life cycle. I don't think a single-pound black hole would be able to make it, though.

I should note, of course, that this is all only to the best of my understanding. I'm not an expert, so it's based on science films, presentations, and the like that I've seen.

[ubergeek63]

The most optimized you can get on Magic Missile + Fell Drain is awarding negative levels to multiple targets. The way Fell Drain is worded, only the first instance of a spell causing damage causes level drain. Still, 1 negative level for five enemies from a level 2 spell slot isn't bad.
Hmmm.... you wanna break the game with a cantrip fine:

Arcane thesis (acid splash)
energy substitution (fire)
Fell Drain

you can get a wand of lvl drain for 187GP+30XP (still a cantrip) if you have the create wand feat! Maybe less 30% as it has an alignment requirement!

Add Fell Animate and it becomes a 2nd lvl spell wand of create zombies!

[Zonugal]

Hmmm.... you wanna break the game with a cantrip fine:

Arcane thesis (acid splash)
energy substitution (fire)
Fell Drain

you can get a wand of lvl drain for 187GP+30XP (still a cantrip) if you have the create wand feat! Maybe less 30% as it has an alignment requirement!

Add Fell Animate and it becomes a 2nd lvl spell wand of create zombies!

Why energy substitution (fire) if I can ask?

[TroubleBrewing]

Why energy substitution (fire) if I can ask?

A better question would be "Why not use Sonic Snap/Easy Metamagic?" It doesn't require an attack roll, and costs a 0th level slot.

That trick happened on like... page 1, I think?

[ClothedInVelvet]

What about dropping a portable hole into a bag of holding. 10-ft radius gone. A remote controlled bomb?

[TroubleBrewing]

What about dropping a portable hole into a bag of holding. 10-ft radius gone. A remote controlled bomb?

That's not really remote controlled... Nor is it a cantrip. :smallconfused:

[ClothedInVelvet]

That's not really remote controlled... Nor is it a cantrip. :smallconfused:

Sorry, I wasn't clear. Use Prestidigitation to drop a portable hole into a bag of holding. When you're not within 10', there's no reason not to (other than the money).

[NNescio]

Sorry, I wasn't clear. Use Prestidigitation to drop a portable hole into a bag of holding. When you're not within 10', there's no reason not to (other than the money).

Prestidigitation
Universal
Level: Brd 0, Sor/Wiz 0
Components: V, S
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: 10 ft.
Target, Effect, or Area: See text
Duration: 1 hour
Saving Throw: See text
Spell Resistance: No

I suppose you can drop the portable hole into the bag of holding from a height, but you might as well just skip the middleman altogether (read: use your bare hands) if you are going that route.

[Divide by Zero]

Why energy substitution (fire) if I can ask?

Presumably for the -1 from Arcane Thesis.

[Flame of Anor]

Nope- sorry. Gravity increases inverse to the square of distance. Fortunately for us, very few things are point masses. Everything behaves like a black hole gravitationally- provided you're outside the volume. (If our sun mysteriously collapsed into a black hole, there wouldn't by any gravitational difference to the planets.) Black holes act like point masses, though. You can get closer and closer and closer, and every time you halve the distance, you get four times the gravitational pull.

Back to the one-pound mass. Outside of the volume of the mass, there's no difference. Go half way to the center, it pulls as much as a four pound mass would if you were at the surface of the original volume. Half way again, 16 pounds… 64, 256, and so on. But say you were standing next to a very, very heavy weight- tons and tons. You still wouldn't notice the attraction. Now, if you shrank it down far enough, yes, almost infinitely close it could give you black hole effects I suppose. At worst, that sucks up some molecules, maybe a cell or two, I don't know. But that's just going to clear an empty space. (It would have to suck up a full pound of matter to even double its gravity, so you're not going to get a cool runaway matter-eating black hole that keeps growing.) Game-mechanics-wise, once somebody has to start rolling for damage, I think the spell runs into problems.

You're just proving that it would take a very long time to suck the person up. With the spell keeping it completely contained, it couldn't get less massive. So it would only get more massive by random molecules bumping into it, but that's still a nondecreasing function, and not bounded above, so it goes to infinity...eventually. I don't think the PHB mentions the relation of mage hand to Hawking radiation, though...

[Divide by Zero]

You're just proving that it would take a very long time to suck the person up. With the spell keeping it completely contained, it couldn't get less massive. So it would only get more massive by random molecules bumping into it, but that's still a nondecreasing function, and not bounded above, so it goes to infinity...eventually. I don't think the PHB mentions the relation of mage hand to Hawking radiation, though...

If the spell has a mass limit, then what happens when the black hole exceeds that mass? And if it's a weight limit instead, then how does it interact with relativistic effects?

[NullShadow]

The most optimized you can get on Magic Missile + Fell Drain is awarding negative levels to multiple targets. The way Fell Drain is worded, only the first instance of a spell causing damage causes level drain. Still, 1 negative level for five enemies from a level 2 spell slot isn't bad.

Just wondering, what would happen if you added persistent and twin spell to that?(plus all the usual shenanigans)

[NNescio]

Just wondering, what would happen if you added persistent and twin spell to that?(plus all the usual shenanigans)

You can't add Persistent spell to Magic Missile. Or any instantaneous spell, for that matter. It's the same reason why it won't work on Orb of Fire either, which also has a rider effect.

A Twinned MM is effectively the same as casting it twice, so it can inflict up to two negative levels on the same target.

[ubergeek63]

A better question would be "Why not use Sonic Snap/Easy Metamagic?" It doesn't require an attack roll, and costs a 0th level slot.

That trick happened on like... page 1, I think?
forgot about sonic snap, but that would use more than a 0 lvl since it always adds at least one lvl to the spell.

EDIT: plus sonic snap allows SR, acid splatter does not... so there is a trace off between SR and touch attack

[ubergeek63]

Why energy substitution (fire) if I can ask?

Arcane thesis lowers the resultant spell lvl by one for EVERY metamagic applied down to the base spell lvl.

fell drain is +2 lvls -1 for thesis and energy sub is 0 lvls -1 for thesis to net a 0 lvl spell

[Lonely Tylenol]

Yeah, you have to Arcane Thesis a cantrip to use metamagic on a cantrip without going above 0.

That said, from there you could go with a Thesis'd Fell Drained Invisible Sonic Snap at level 1 with a single flaw (Energy Substitution can't substitute sonic-based spells) and show your DM why you should never homerule unlimited cantrip use...

EDIT: By the way, how cool would that spell be at level 1? All of a sudden, your opponent hears a loud "pop" sound next to their ear, and they fall dead instantly...

[RCgothic]

You're just proving that it would take a very long time to suck the person up. With the spell keeping it completely contained, it couldn't get less massive. So it would only get more massive by random molecules bumping into it, but that's still a nondecreasing function, and not bounded above, so it goes to infinity...eventually. I don't think the PHB mentions the relation of mage hand to Hawking radiation, though...

The Radius of a 1lb black hole would be 6.75*10^-28 meters. This is just 41million planck lengths, as small to a proton as a proton is to a meter.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schwarzschild_radius#Primordial_black_hole

Because of the tiny radius, this 1lb mass would have a density of 3.5*10^80kg/m^3. By comparison, the density of the supermassive black hole at the centre of the milky way barely needs standard notation: 1.08*10^6kg/m^3. So you'd have to compact it at least 10^74 times more than a supermassive black hole in order to create any effect. The above article mentions that no known IRL mechanism could achieve this. So by DM fiat, I'd rule creating mini black holes a long way beyond the ability of a cantrip.

But assuming the DM doesn't intervene, what would happen if a tiny black hole strikes the earth: http://www.universetoday.com/12837/what-would-happen-if-a-small-black-hole-hit-the-earth/
Not much. And our black hole is a LOT smaller than that, and would have a MUCH smaller path it could affect through a medium sized target. The target wouldn't notice it. If you held it inside the target, then it wouldn't produce the radiation because it wouldn't be moving. Nearby protons and electrons would barely notice it either - it still only has the attractive force of a 1lb mass, with a radius of 42 million planck lengths, so it wouldn't be bumping in to too many things either. It might attract a few subatomic particles here or there, but nothing that wouldn't be missed or easily replcaed by any living creature. The universe would probably die before the black hole accumulated enough mass to consume the target.

However, there is one way to do a massive amount of damage with a 1lb mass compressed nearly into a black hole. No known force in the universe can hold matter so densely together, so by releasing the spell the mass would explode with a never before seen force. We're probably talking energy equivalent to a total conversion bomb. 1lb of matter totally converted into energy would be just under 20Megatonnes, and we could easily have more than that. Congratulations, you can now glass the surface of a planet with a cantrip.

Unfortunately you'd have to be standing within 10 feet.:smallwink:

tl;dr version:Any DM should disallow the supercompression required. If they don't, then the resultant black hole won't do much. But it will explode in your face with one of the largest explosions ever generated by man when you stop casting.

If one of your party members tries this, the other members should teleport at least 200km away, or else buy very fast horses and pray.:smallwink:

[ubergeek63]

Yeah, you have to Arcane Thesis a cantrip to use metamagic on a cantrip without going above 0.

That said, from there you could go with a Thesis'd Fell Drained Invisible Sonic Snap at level 1 with a single flaw (Energy Substitution can't substitute sonic-based spells) and show your DM why you should never homerule unlimited cantrip use...

EDIT: By the way, how cool would that spell be at level 1? All of a sudden, your opponent hears a loud "pop" sound next to their ear, and they fall dead instantly...

now breaking the game with cantrips would be for a lvl 17 cantripologist (from d&dwiki.com, dont know off hand if it is anywhere else) would be able to drain 18 lvls per round with no save!

[mootoall]

Heh, one of my players just gave me this one.

Risidual Magic on a Shadowcraft Mage using Heighten Spell, Arcane Disciple and a metamagic reducer to make Silent Image cast Miracle out of a cantrip slot. Brutal.

[Barstro]

Nearby protons and electrons would barely notice it either - it still only has the attractive force of a 1lb mass, with a radius of 42 million planck lengths, so it wouldn't be bumping in to too many things either.

Any particles that are within range of the event horizon will become part of the black hole, increase its mass, and thus increase the radius of the event horizon. Barring another force, this cycle will continue until everything is destroyed.

As stated, the black hole itself (beyond the event horizon) would act just like any other one-pound object. Thus, it would still be attracted to the earth's center of gravity and attempt to accelerate towards the core, just like we do. Being so small, nothing would get into the way of the black hole, and it would just become part of the core, where it's event horizon would eventually find an equilibrium with the core surrounding it.


No known force in the universe can hold matter so densely together,

I had thought that a black hole was self sustaining (its own gravity is what kept it together). But I never fully grasped Hawking as much as I would like (and certainly less than you seem to), so I will have to take your word for it that small black holes have a short duration.

[RCgothic]

Any particles that are within range of the event horizon will become part of the black hole, increase its mass, and thus increase the radius of the event horizon. Barring another force, this cycle will continue until everything is destroyed.


True, but the event horizon is so small that it won't bump into much, as the vast majority of materials consists only of empty space. 1lb worth of gravitational force outside the event horizon is sufficient to capture some particles, but not at a rate lethal to any living target.




I had thought that a black hole was self sustaining (its own gravity is what kept it together). But I never fully grasped Hawking as much as I would like (and certainly less than you seem to), so I will have to take your word for it that small black holes have a short duration.

It depends on the rate of evaporation and absorption. Both are likely to be on geological timescales, and thus not of much interest to the lay adventurer, though I'm going on gut feeling here, someone else may have more accurate figures.

The bigger problem than hawking radiation or the event horizon is the energies involved in crushing the matter down to the required size. Once you have already crushed something into neutronium, degeneracy pressure rises rapidly, requiring you to impart relativistic energy levels to the matter you're crushing. Once you release all that matter, assuming you haven't quite reached the swarzchild radius to form an event horizon, you end up with a very large bomb, which will easily be on the scale of tens of Megatons for a 1lb material.

And you have to be standing within 10ft to cast it.

[ubergeek63]

Heh, one of my players just gave me this one.

Risidual Magic on a Shadowcraft Mage using Heighten Spell, Arcane Disciple and a metamagic reducer to make Silent Image cast Miracle out of a cantrip slot. Brutal.

i will have to look at that one... I am still fond of the cantripologist idea though - a 5KGP ring of wizardry 0 would allow him to drain 600 lvls per day at 18 per round :smallbiggrin:

if you add fell animate it would be an instant dragon zombie!

[Morph Bark]

Prestididgation can't cause harm. 60 degrees celsius is enough to burn (or start breaking proteins or whatever). Therefore, you cannot make anything hotter than say mid 50c with it.

(approx 130 fahrenheit is the maximum)

Prestidigitation can't cause harm... but it wouldn't if it isn't targeted directly at a creature. You could heat up a rock to hundreds of degrees, then chuck it at someone, but you couldn't heat up an earth elemental that much.

[Eric Tolle]

The black hole wouldn't have time to do anything, because Hawking radiation for an object that size would mean it would evaporate almost instantaneously. When I ran some BOTE figures, I got something like 2.5 X 10^-37 seconds duration. On the plus side, the explosion from the rapid evaporation wouldn't be THAT bad- BOTE calculations give the explosion as being only in the range of a couple megatons.

For that level of ingenuity I would be tempted to say: "Congratulations, you succeeded, now roll up a new character. No point buy; as your reward you get to roll 3D6, six times, in order."

[QuidEst]

For that level of ingenuity I would be tempted to say: "Congratulations, you succeeded, now roll up a new character. No point buy; as your reward you get to roll 3D6, six times, in order."

XD Nice… I'm generally of the opinion that the more science you attempt to use, the more science you should expect to have thrown back at you. Relativity, black holes, quantum mechanics, and nuclear physics are all high-risk topics.

[Delcor]

I'd like to say something about the prestidigitation heating 35degrees fission candle or whatever.

What self respecting experienced DM would rule that the (35degree) heatings stack? Its a cantrip, its meant to be weak, so as soon as you utter the word unlimited, it can be abused. Does this make sense?

[QuidEst]

I'd like to say something about the prestidigitation heating 35degrees fission candle or whatever.

What self respecting experienced DM would rule that the (35degree) heatings stack? Its a cantrip, its meant to be weak, so as soon as you utter the word unlimited, it can be abused. Does this make sense?

Agreed. If you're going to break something with a cantrip, it should be done simply, elegantly, and without little room for DM interruption.